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The original post

Posted by Black Winter on 11.03.2008 at 21:55
Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points .



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deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  11.04.2015 at 01:48
As always Ayaan Hirsi Ali hits a few nails on the head when discussing the nature of Islam and it's problem with radicalisation:

http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/ayaan-hirsi-ali-on-extremism-islam-and-reformation-20150410-1m5kf6.html

Problem is a lot of the Muslim community will never accept her words (ie Islam needs a reformation into a more peaceful, tolerant religion) and even many Westerners will refute that in order to not appear racist.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40288

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  14.04.2015 at 22:00
Written by deadone on 11.04.2015 at 01:48

As always Ayaan Hirsi Ali hits a few nails on the head when discussing the nature of Islam and it's problem with radicalisation:

http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/ayaan-hirsi-ali-on-extremism-islam-and-reformation-20150410-1m5kf6.html

Problem is a lot of the Muslim community will never accept her words (ie Islam needs a reformation into a more peaceful, tolerant religion) and even many Westerners will refute that in order to not appear racist.


I heard US iis accusing Saudi role in 9/11 ... cant find link, it was in guardian
well like I said Israel is only western ally in mid east who share same politics as we do , same goes Kurdistan and also old Turkey befor Erdogan , mistake was not take Turkey into EU
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Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  15.04.2015 at 02:52
Written by Bad English on 14.04.2015 at 22:00


I heard US iis accusing Saudi role in 9/11 ... cant find link, it was in guardian
well like I said Israel is only western ally in mid east who share same politics as we do , same goes Kurdistan and also old Turkey befor Erdogan , mistake was not take Turkey into EU



You realise the Turks even in their most Westernised state failed to meet minimum EU requirements in terms of respect for human rights and freedom of speech?


With what they were doing in Kurdistan is not much different to how the Russians treat some of their own minorities.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40288

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  15.04.2015 at 02:55
If Turkey will use euro a scurency it will be much better as Greece have it
our economics can rise and high up
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  15.04.2015 at 03:22
On one hand you harp on about evil Russian dictatorship but then you want to accept Turkey in EU despite it oppressing Kurds and illegally occupying a third of Cyprus.

EU is more than just economics - it's about a set of values based on universal human rights. Turkey doesn't even want to accept responsibility for Armenian Genocide, let try to work things out with Kurds or leave Cyprus alone.

And letting Turkey into EU won't save the EU. The EUs problems are due to a very generous welfare state, bureaucratic incompetence and lack of leadership due to emphasis on democracy where politicians don't want to offend anyone by making hard and unpopular decisions (and Greece is a great example of that).
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 597
From: Israel

  15.04.2015 at 11:36
Written by deadone on 15.04.2015 at 03:22

On one hand you harp on about evil Russian dictatorship but then you want to accept Turkey in EU despite it oppressing Kurds and illegally occupying a third of Cyprus.

EU is more than just economics - it's about a set of values based on universal human rights. Turkey doesn't even want to accept responsibility for Armenian Genocide, let try to work things out with Kurds or leave Cyprus alone.

And letting Turkey into EU won't save the EU. The EUs problems are due to a very generous welfare state, bureaucratic incompetence and lack of leadership due to emphasis on democracy where politicians don't want to offend anyone by making hard and unpopular decisions (and Greece is a great example of that).


It's easy being an idealist and not working out thing in practice. What do you suggest instead? Europeans bringing more children to the world?

EUs 'problem' seems to be an ideological and historical one. The older generation of immigrates were assimilative - no one saw a contradiction between their Algerian and French identity and they turned into a part of French society according to the cosmopolitanism secular ideals of the time.
Multiculturalism is firstly an historical fact that probably stems mainly from Europe's colonial past. The question of how to deal with it is the ideological one.

Europeans have a low birth rate that grants them better quality of life (with some bizarre 'first world problems' like "gender awareness") but diminished economic growth. So to keep it up you basically need immigration. Not everyone can live in expensive neighborhoods in Sweden and be managers, CEOs or live good lives on welfare because you need someone to manage (income inequality in Sweden has been climbing steadily the last two decades, still below the OECD average to date).

The way my Syrian friend approaches 'social diversity' is very different than my Europeans friend who live in a 95%-97% 'native' European societies are quite the opposite. Diversity brings many views to the world into one place and strong disagreement brings strife. Multiculturalism tries to actively keep very basic disagreements there. That's why integration works better in countries which are more assimilative like the US or France.

Well, you know how it goes, for the last several centuries continental Europe holds onto its romanticism, an issue that has to do a lot with European identity (creating their own tribal identity in contract to the utilitarian, realist inclined Anglo-Saxon sphere) - it did not matter if your a fascist or cosmopolitan you were a romantic and despised consequential moral thought.

The dream will may hit reality eventually depending on how long the bureaucrats will be able to maintain it in the face of the idealists like it did several times the last few century.
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40288

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  15.04.2015 at 11:46
Cyprus survived crisis more easier as Greece did, Turkey will do more good as bad to us,
You wanna say ppl should not get social welfare? if its be my dessision ppl who voted for WP when be unployes wont get state help and we need less children to have a future, vey 5th family can have one children, because it will bring level to free jobs and economical balance ,
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  16.04.2015 at 02:44
Written by Candlemass on 15.04.2015 at 11:36

It's easy being an idealist and not working out thing in practice. What do you suggest instead? Europeans bringing more children to the world?


I'm not the idealist - it's the European Union itself that upholds these ideals. And Turkey's poor human rights record has been cited as one reason it was not let in.

Personally I think the EU is doomed to failure - over bureaucratic, too controlled by Germany, too many diverse cultures and too many diverse economies. It's core is basically a democratic Austria-Hungary or Ottoman Empire. If Spaniards (whoops Basque and Catalans) can't live with each other, they certainly won't be able to live under the EU for too long.

Already there are cracks - UK and Greece, but countries like Hungary as well.

Quote:

EUs 'problem' seems to be an ideological and historical one. The older generation of immigrates were assimilative - no one saw a contradiction between their Algerian and French identity and they turned into a part of French society according to the cosmopolitanism secular ideals of the time.
Multiculturalism is firstly an historical fact that probably stems mainly from Europe's colonial past. The question of how to deal with it is the ideological one.


I think that view is slightly too focused on EU existing in a vacuum and doesn't look at global trends.

Issues with conservative Islam and fundamentalism are not related to EU, but rather developments in the Muslim world:

1. "Success" of jihadis against USSR and USA, compared with failure of secular nationalism. Even Hamas can be viewed as more successful against Israel than PLO or current more secular Palestinians.

2. "Success" of oil rich fundamentalist states like Saudi Arabia over secular ones like Egypt. Not only does their charity (e.g. madrassas) promote fundamentalism but their economic and political successes is a beacon to the disenfranchised. Even secular Turkey "failed" - loss of power and influence and inability to get accepted into the EU club. "Islamist" Turkey on the other hand has become far more influential.

3. Growing urbanisation which sees fundamentalist/conservative country folk move to cities.

4. Growing globalisation sees more Western influences creeping into conservative Muslim societies who view this as some sort of cultural assault.

5. Basically the only socio-political model that Muslims can see as effective is an Islamist one. It's the Saudis, UAE and Qatar that now dominate the Muslim agenda and not the secular Egyptians or Indonesians as happened in the 1950s-70s.

And European specific one:

A. Population critical mass. A few migrants won't rock the boat. A larger population will. And Islam is a fundamentalist and aggressive religion at heart, especially the Arab strain. Thus critical population mass is far smaller than for a lot of other migrant groups. E.g. compare the violent and confrontational nature of Islam in Australia (2% of population) whilst the Chinese are 4.3% and don't cause any problems and happily live in the country. Meanwhile Muslims are planning or conducting terror attacks, going to fight for IS (and before that Hezbollah and Sunni Lebanese groups), having constant conflict with governments and other ethnic groups, have called for sharia law and their imams blatantly preach values that are against basic human rights, let alone Australian law.

Basically Chinese culture is "don't rock the boat and live in harmony" (basically Confucian/Buddhist values). Islamic culture is "spread the word of allah. Whole world must live by Islamic ideals or be subjugated".

B. EU is not a culture. It's many different cultures from countries where even local differences fester for decades and centuries (Catalans, Basques, Flemish. Wallons, Catholic Irish, Scots), let alone imported cultures.

And many of these people shed much blood and treasure to become indepdendent to then want to give away their true sovereignty to the EU (e.g. Greeks or Poles or whatever)


Quote:
Europeans have a low birth rate that grants them better quality of life (with some bizarre 'first world problems' like "gender awareness") but diminished economic growth. So to keep it up you basically need immigration. Not everyone can live in expensive neighborhoods in Sweden and be managers, CEOs or live good lives on welfare because you need someone to manage (income inequality in Sweden has been climbing steadily the last two decades, still below the OECD average to date).



The whole obsession with economic growth (and in reality consumption) is in my opinion wrong. GDP growth no longer equates to improvements in living standards. E.g. in Australia we've had continuous economic growth for many years. Over the last 2.5 years, there was no improvements in living standards despite continuous economic "growth." Indeed the growing income inequality in the West is testament to failure of modern economic policies.

I used to be pro-globalisation and pro-free trade but recently I've seen it's actually failing our society and only serves the interests of a very few rich people and a few powerful business institutions.

Quote:
The way my Syrian friend approaches 'social diversity' is very different than my Europeans friend who live in a 95%-97% 'native' European societies are quite the opposite. Diversity brings many views to the world into one place and strong disagreement brings strife. Multiculturalism tries to actively keep very basic disagreements there. That's why integration works better in countries which are more assimilative like the US or France.


France as a country does not seem to have great assimilation. The migrant slums in cities like Marseilles are testament to that.

And Syrian multiculturalism showed it's true colours. It was fine and dandy whilst authoritarianism ruled the day (be it the Assads or Anglo-French colonialists or Ottomans) but as soon as people figured out they could think for themselves, they started slaughtering each other and the country is now a destroyed warzone.

Quote:

Well, you know how it goes, for the last several centuries continental Europe holds onto its romanticism, an issue that has to do a lot with European identity (creating their own tribal identity in contract to the utilitarian, realist inclined Anglo-Saxon sphere) - it did not matter if your a fascist or cosmopolitan you were a romantic and despised consequential moral thought.



Actually the Anglo-Saxons themselves have a form of romanticism. The Americans are a great example of that - they believe in the manifest destiny of the USA, sincerely believe in their values even when they apply the opposite (e.g. liberty for all except African Americans or Chinese or Native Americans). They also believe all people around the planet are essentially the same and Americans at heart. It's best summed up in Kubrik's Full Metal Jacket: "Inside every gook there's an American trying to get out."

There's similar concepts in Australia - romantic concepts of "fair go," "the lucky country" and "mateship" etc etc and in the past Britain.


Quote:

The dream will may hit reality eventually depending on how long the bureaucrats will be able to maintain it in the face of the idealists like it did several times the last few century.


My thoughts on EU/world:

1. At some stage EU will collapse or at least shrink to size it was during it's inception as the EEC.

2. Europe will continue to decline in influence. We're living in an Asian century and Latin America is also getting it's act together. USA will continue to be a superpower well into 2100s.

3. Europe will continue to see increases in income inequality and eventually greater endemic poverty.

4. NATO will linger as a toothless tiger until a real threat comes into existence (e.g. Russian takeover of Baltics). At this point it will fail and dissipate due to no-ones willingness to start World War III).

5. By 2100 UK, France, Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden will be Muslim majorities and maybe possibly mainly completely Muslim if conversion rates skyrocket as people wish to stay in mainstream of society. These kind of conversions were seen in both Christianity and Islam in the past as converting to main religion ensured continued equality and access to opportunities.

6. I suspect Germany might split between a multi-cultural (and probably Muslim) West Germany and a largely ethnic German East Germany (very few migrants in the East other than Berlin).

7. I'm not sure if Europe will continue to be democratic by 2100 due to demographic changes.

8. Eastern Europe will be squalid white/Christian trash of the European world. For some countries such as Romania or Bulgaria or Moldova, that means no change. They will chum up with Russia to prop them up and help guard against Islamic encroachment - this is already happening in Cyprus, Greece, Bulgaria and Hungary (chumming up to Russia to prop themselves up).



It's a bleak picture but to take into context Europe has been in decline since 1914!
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  16.04.2015 at 03:41
Oh and another example of the growth of conservative Islam I keep talking about and that seems to be ignored by West for most part (this time in Indonesia):

They have banned sale of alcohol in mini-marts and there is a push to ban sale of alcohol in Indonesia all together.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/indonesia-proposes-booze-ban-sanctions-already-in-place-in-bali-mini-marts/story-e6frfqb9-1227305424501
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40288

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  16.04.2015 at 17:36
What is this all to do whit religion ?
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  17.04.2015 at 02:41
Written by Bad English on 16.04.2015 at 17:36

What is this all to do whit religion ?


Bans on alcohol are religiously motivated and in particular motivated by increased adherence to conservative Islam in countries where previously such adherence was not known. There's also been some crackdowns in Turkey on sale of alcohol on airliners and some cafes.


Did you not know Islam prohibits consumption of alcohol?
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40288

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  17.04.2015 at 02:43
Written by deadone on 17.04.2015 at 02:41

Written by Bad English on 16.04.2015 at 17:36

What is this all to do whit religion ?


Bands on alcohol are religiously motivated and in particular motivated by increased adherence to conservative Islam in countries where previously such adherence was not known. There's also been some crackdowns in Turkey on sale of alcohol on airliners and some cafes.


Did you not know Islam prohibits consumption of alcohol?


I knew it and its good,
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  17.04.2015 at 02:54
1. Then why did you ask what it had to do with Islam?

and

2. What is "good"? Do you think the ban on alcohol is good?
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40288

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  17.04.2015 at 03:12
Written by deadone on 17.04.2015 at 02:54


2. What is "good"? Do you think the ban on alcohol is good?


no I don't I think it must be legalized as we have in Europe, this is best part of living in liberal society and like I told I like pre Erdogan Turkey
when militarists rules they were pro Europiean .... btw Christianity is not better some crazy priest will run around and say its devils drink
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  17.04.2015 at 03:21
Written by Bad English on 17.04.2015 at 03:12

btw Christianity is not better some crazy priest will run around and say its devils drink


You fail to note the difference:

1. In Islam alcohol is regarded as the work of Satan. Many Islamic countries ban booze along with homosexuality, women driving, heavy metal music and a whole heap of that other liberal stuff you like to praise upon.

2. In Christianity, alcohol is allowed and is actually a part of Holy Communion (y'know the bit about Jesus saying the wine is his blood and when you go to Church and drink wine).

And finally Muslims will eventually want to ban booze, metal, etc etc when they take over in Europe or sooner.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40288

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  17.04.2015 at 11:18
Written by deadone on 17.04.2015 at 03:21

Written by Bad English on 17.04.2015 at 03:12

btw Christianity is not better some crazy priest will run around and say its devils drink


You fail to note the difference:

1. In Islam alcohol is regarded as the work of Satan. Many Islamic countries ban booze along with homosexuality, women driving, heavy metal music and a whole heap of that other liberal stuff you like to praise upon.

2. In Christianity, alcohol is allowed and is actually a part of Holy Communion (y'know the bit about Jesus saying the wine is his blood and when you go to Church and drink wine).

And finally Muslims will eventually want to ban booze, metal, etc etc when they take over in Europe or sooner.


wont happen, not In my life time, after it, I have no children
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  18.04.2015 at 01:51
Written by Bad English on 17.04.2015 at 11:18

wont happen, not In my life time, after it, I have no children


It's already happening. In one German city (Wuppertal) Muslim sharia "police" are apparently harassing people who are out at clubs and pubs.

http://www.vocativ.com/world/germany-world/germanys-sharia-police

Muslims don't need to be a majority to enforce their cult rules.
no one

Posts: 2997

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  18.04.2015 at 02:31
Written by deadone on 17.04.2015 at 02:41

Written by Bad English on 16.04.2015 at 17:36

What is this all to do whit religion ?


Bans on alcohol are religiously motivated and in particular motivated by increased adherence to conservative Islam in countries where previously such adherence was not known. There's also been some crackdowns in Turkey on sale of alcohol on airliners and some cafes.


Did you not know Islam prohibits consumption of alcohol?


In new zealand they do it because there is an alcoholism problem...Well they have tried to take it out of the supermarkets and dairy's, but instead just cut down the hours liquor stores can sell it some places.
----
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deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5626
From: Australia

  Today at 08:33
Written by no one on 18.04.2015 at 02:31

In new zealand they do it because there is an alcoholism problem...Well they have tried to take it out of the supermarkets and dairy's, but instead just cut down the hours liquor stores can sell it some places.



I can understand it from a health perspective. But not on religious grounds and especially not when those religious grounds include gender inequality, religious intolerance, intolerance of sexuality etc etc.

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