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The original post

Posted by Black Winter on 11.03.2008 at 21:55
Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points .



Page 49 of 49

deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 5445
From: Australia

  20.03.2015 at 13:29
Written by Bad English on 20.03.2015 at 12:49



Afga was example after 40 years.
That Pandora box is treat to European security, mid eat , N Africa
Afga to reach us they need march over Rus, Iran, Iraq ... they would be defeated.



In case you didn't notice, Al Qaeda was set up by veterans from the Afghan war like Osama Bin Ladin. They didn't need an army to cross into West. They just needed a visa anda passport.

As for the Pandorra's Box - massive immigration was part of the problem.


Quote:

Funy US gives weapons to Syrians, but not Ukraians ... they need more and Assad gas, chemical warfare ... isis used it , 60% might be Assad never used those
anyway Ukr needs modern weapons, to destroy Rus panzers, Rus wont be money re build new, it means less guns left to invading other country


1. USA doesn't want war with Russia. That's WWIII.
2. Russia is buying more new military equipment than Western Europe. They're also upgrading the massive stock of weapons they have left from the USSR.
Slayer666

Posts: 2447

Age: 20
From: Serbia

  20.03.2015 at 14:44
Written by deadone on 20.03.2015 at 03:56

An interesting article on increasing anti-Semitism in Europe. The right wing extremists are still perpetrators but the vast majority of the growing anti-Semitism is by muslims. And by the sounds of it, it's not done by just fundamentalist nutjobs but rather by a large spectrum of the Muslim community:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/


"Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe?" - By Jeffrey Goldberg

Oh wow, a Jew writing about the supposed woes of the Jewish people. This is the pinnacle of unbiased, professional journalism right here.

Newsflash guys, I don't know what Europe you've all been living in, but for every member of the extreme Anti-Semitic right wing, there are 8+ members of leftist "all races are equal, but blacks and Jews are equal-er" movement.

The Jews and non-Caucasians are more protected in EU than polar bears and pandas combined, if we're going by the official government stances and actions. This article is just another play of the race(religion)-card game. White guilt is tearing Europe to shreds and there is no soil more fertile to spread this bullshit propaganda in.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 592
From: Israel

  20.03.2015 at 15:45
Written by Slayer666 on 20.03.2015 at 14:44

"Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe?" - By Jeffrey Goldberg

Oh wow, a Jew writing about the supposed woes of the Jewish people. This is the pinnacle of unbiased, professional journalism right here.

Newsflash guys, I don't know what Europe you've all been living in, but for every member of the extreme Anti-Semitic right wing, there are 8+ members of leftist "all races are equal, but blacks and Jews are equal-er" movement.

The Jews and non-Caucasians are more protected in EU than polar bears and pandas combined, if we're going by the official government stances and actions. This article is just another play of the race(religion)-card game. White guilt is tearing Europe to shreds and there is no soil more fertile to spread this bullshit propaganda in.


You're committing the circumstantial ad-hominem fallacy. Either you show how the content is wrong or your going down the path of mistakes named in Latin.

"White guilt" is cheap inverted racism and the ultra-nationalism on that's on the rise in Europe is no less worst. I spent a year and two months in "racial anthropology" forums and neo-Nazi websites, nine months with European Marxists and I read European newspapers daily - all horde after the most nauseating ideas. The identity politics, collectivism and romanticism are common to the entire spectrum of European politics.

Just had a conversation with a Belgium friend who claims "Why Jews need military protection? So what if 1/10 people killed were Jews?" as if it's some random events. After that another friend from Sweden kicks in saying "but look what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians" regurgitating cheap collectivism as if 'Ze Jews' killed Jesus all over again. Meanwhile another friend from Ireland kicks in, rejecting the previous but blames the Jews again for it "should have spoken louder against Israel" lacking basic civility.

Yes, it's time for Jews to leave Europe as it always had been.
Jews should have left Europe entirety after World War I - they were overrepresented in every category including military officers and deaths per ethics group and still were blamed with the stab in the back myth. Which many Europeans still hold a variation of it today just like most classic antisemitic canards.

Otherwise, isn't the topic of this thread "Islam"?
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Slayer666

Posts: 2447

Age: 20
From: Serbia

  20.03.2015 at 16:30
Written by Candlemass on 20.03.2015 at 15:45

You're committing the circumstantial ad-hominem fallacy. Either you show how the content is wrong or your going down the path of mistakes named in Latin.

"White guilt" is cheap inverted racism and the ultra-nationalism on that's on the rise in Europe is no less worst. I spent a year and two months in "racial anthropology" forums and neo-Nazi websites, nine months with European Marxists and I read European newspapers daily - all horde after the most nauseating ideas. The identity politics, collectivism and romanticism are common to the entire spectrum of European politics.

Just had a conversation with a Belgium friend who claims "Why Jews need military protection? So what if 1/10 people killed were Jews?" as if it's some random events. After that another friend from Sweden kicks in saying "but look what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians" regurgitating cheap collectivism as if 'Ze Jews' killed Jesus all over again. Meanwhile another friend from Ireland kicks in, rejecting the previous but blames the Jews again for it "should have spoken louder against Israel" lacking basic civility.

Yes, it's time for Jews to leave Europe as it always had been.
Jews should have left Europe entirety after World War I - they were overrepresented in every category including military officers and deaths per ethics group and still were blamed with the stab in the back myth. Which many Europeans still hold a variation of it today just like most classic antisemitic canards.

Otherwise, isn't the topic of this thread "Islam"?


Yes, I'm sure that every act of racist Neanthertals all over the world are actually acts of Antisemitism and not acts of total morons who barely have any idea of what they're actually doing.

I realize this is a touchy topic for you, as you're probably a Jew yourself, but this whole Antisemitism thing is blown so far out of proportion it's fucking ridiculous. Every single Jew-opposing group numbers a pitiful few thousand members, which gain some semblance of prominence by being very vocal. That doesn't mean they're relevant at-fucking-all.

It simply means they make for good sensationalist news.

As for "white guilt being inverted racism" statement you've made, I can only assume your head is so far up your own ass you can't tell up from down. Yes, white guilt is very real amongst the Western mainstream media and propaganda. It takes someone with room temperature IQ (the majority of people) not to see it.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 592
From: Israel

  20.03.2015 at 17:30
Written by Slayer666 on 20.03.2015 at 16:30

Yes, I'm sure that every act of racist Neanthertals all over the world are actually acts of Antisemitism and not acts of total morons who barely have any idea of what they're actually doing.


A. Not what I claimed.
B. Being a moron does not contradict with being an antisemite.
C. Well articulated and educated hate exists and it isn't new, not against blacks, gays or Jews.

Written by Slayer666 on 20.03.2015 at 16:30

I realize this is a touchy topic for you, as you're probably a Jew yourself, but this whole Antisemitism thing is blown so far out of proportion it's fucking ridiculous. Every single Jew-opposing group numbers a pitiful few thousand members, which gain some semblance of prominence by being very vocal. That doesn't mean they're relevant at-fucking-all.


Indeed blown out of proportions but in different way. Jews are ~1% out of French population and suffer from ~50% of racist attacks including the most violent ones -- and it gets minimized, rationalized and trivialized by the vast of European politics. No one wants to hear about it. The right doesn't want to think about sub-communities with its dreams of purity and the left 'multiculturalists' don't want to hear their hellish utopia is failing.


Written by Slayer666 on 20.03.2015 at 16:30

As for "white guilt being inverted racism" statement you've made, I can only assume your head is so far up your own ass you can't tell up from down. Yes, white guilt is very real amongst the Western mainstream media and propaganda. It takes someone with room temperature IQ (the majority of people) not to see it.


Why so aggressive honey? I agreed with you. These are some interesting comments you may agree with. If anything I empathize with French conservatism and not the post-colonial left.
Like I implied I'm not a collectivist, not for the better (taking credit for the work of people who died before I was even born) or worst (white guilt) and it's a complicated issue.


isn't this "Islam" thread?
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37519

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  20.03.2015 at 18:01
Like Candlemass said "isn't this the "Islam" thread?

So keep it on the subject of Islam, please.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
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05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Slayer666

Posts: 2447

Age: 20
From: Serbia

  20.03.2015 at 18:37
Written by Candlemass on 20.03.2015 at 17:30

A. Not what I claimed.


In that case, I apologize, your claim was kinda vague.

Quote:

B. Being a moron does not contradict with being an antisemite.


True enough, but hateful morons according to statistics don't make a very relevant population sampling. Hell, even here in "backwards-as-fuck" Serbia people are generally content with the "live and let live" attitude, with a small but very vocal "kill all fags/Jews/blacks/whatever" minority causing trouble.

I'm somewhat ashamed to admit I was one of the said minority, until I've met a couple of Jewish, black and Mongoloid people at college who came there from all over the world and I concluded that they're all pretty cool dudes/dudettes. It's kinda hard to hate someone when you spend 10+ hours per day with them listening and discussing about differential equations, recursive algorithms and the polymorphism principles in C++.

So why is small retarded minority given such a massive part in the media? Because sensationalism fucking sells and that's why every media outlet focuses solely on it.

Quote:

Why so aggressive honey?


Because I'm so fucking tired of mainstream media telling me I'm a monster rapist white-supremacist for being born a Caucasian male and my supposed part in the oppression of black/Jews/what the fuck ever. Because of white guilt, because of retarded "journalist" articles like the ones you've linked.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 5445
From: Australia

  22.03.2015 at 00:13
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 20.03.2015 at 18:01

Like Candlemass said "isn't this the "Islam" thread?

So keep it on the subject of Islam, please.



My original post was about the relationship between Islam and other relations with other religions (in this case Judaism). Whilst the Koran does states some sort of respect for other Abrahamic religions (provided they pay a tax), in reality Islam has evolved into an anti-Semitic religion. This happened prior to establishment of Israel but has bee sped up exponentially due to establishment of Israel and resurgence of fundamentalist Islam.

The European component of the equation is whether Muslim will allow any level of religious freedom when they start becoming majorities in European countries from the 2060s onwards. And whether the lead up to their demographic takeover will be marked with increased religious intolerance. The article I posted actually reinforces that that intolerance has already started. After the Jews it'll be Hindus and Christians.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 5445
From: Australia

  22.03.2015 at 00:14
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 20.03.2015 at 18:01

Like Candlemass said "isn't this the "Islam" thread?

So keep it on the subject of Islam, please.



My original post was about the relationship between Islam and other relations with other religions (in this case Judaism). Whilst the Koran does states some sort of respect for other Abrahamic religions (provided they pay a tax), in reality Islam has evolved into an anti-Semitic religion. This happened prior to establishment of Israel but has bee sped up exponentially due to establishment of Israel and resurgence of fundamentalist Islam.

The European component of the equation is whether Muslim will allow any level of religious freedom when they start becoming majorities in European countries from the 2060s onwards. And whether the lead up to their demographic takeover will be marked with increased religious intolerance. The article I posted actually reinforces that that intolerance has already started. In essence Western values of tolerance get destroyed by tolerating intolerant views (already happened in Germany in 1933 remember).
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 5445
From: Australia

  22.03.2015 at 00:22
Written by Slayer666 on 20.03.2015 at 18:37



So why is small retarded minority given such a massive part in the media?



Quote:
Because I'm so fucking tired of mainstream media telling me I'm a monster rapist white-supremacist for being born a Caucasian male and my supposed part in the oppression of black/Jews/what the fuck ever. Because of white guilt, because of retarded "journalist" articles like the ones you've linked.



First quote above seems to support the notion of you being at least anti-semitic and playing your part in the oppression of Jews.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 5445
From: Australia

  23.03.2015 at 07:27
Interesting article on how supposedly moderate UK Muslim groups such as Mend and electoral promition agencies such as YouElect are actually tied in with extremist Islamists:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11488175/The-baroness-Islamic-extremists-and-a-question-of-free-speech.html

If true, this is essentially a typical fifth column in action - subvert the mainstream by pretending you adhere to their values and slowly bring them about to your thinking in preparation of massive change in your favour.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 592
From: Israel

  23.03.2015 at 13:39
Well articulated. One an Ex-Muslim (an Atheist), Faisal Saeed Al Mutar and another a Muslims reformist, Maajid Namaz:

"Self hating white liberals should be using their privilege not to avoid the topic of Islam so they wont appear "racists" but rather support reformers and fellow liberals in the Muslim world." - Faisal Saeed Al Mutar

Maajid Namaz:



Meanwhile in Ireland an ex-Muslim is not allowed to give a talk: "Activist pulls out of Trinity College talk due to 'restrictions' aimed at not 'antagonising' Muslims".
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 5445
From: Australia

  24.03.2015 at 02:23
Good stuff Candlemass. We need more Faisal Saeed Al Mutar and Maajid Namaz's. The comments about the most vulnerable people being the "minorities within minorities" (e.g. gay and lesbian people in conservative religions) is especially enlightening.

The Irish case shows how basically the terrorists have won. The pro-violence Islamist was allowed to openly speak without restrictions whilst the anti-violence Muslim speaker had restrictions imposed . We have turned our own values into a weapon against ourselves. And in the end that's what Mr Al Mutar's comments are about - we need true freedom of speech, true freedom of religiom, true freedom of sexuality.

I've never had a problem with say Hindus or Buddhists or Jews or most Christians in the West. They generally allow freedom or at least the freedom to disengage from the religion. I know Christian gay men who've been married by priests even if the government doesn't allow gay marriage. That's true freedom - they have their god and their sexuality.

It's why I have a problem with conservative Islam as it stands - it doesn't allow freedom nor does it allow freedom to disengage from it nor does it allow for progress. It is in essence an authoritarian creed. Sure Christianity was like that 500 years ago but for the most part Christianity has been modernised or been neutered in terms of radical potency. This has not happened in Islam which is still stuck in the 7th century with a 17th century conflict (sectarian strife on Thirty Year's War) bolted on to it in the form of Sunni-Shia conflict.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 592
From: Israel

  24.03.2015 at 12:22
Written by deadone on 24.03.2015 at 02:23

We have turned our own values into a weapon against ourselves. And in the end that's what Mr Al Mutar's comments are about - we need true freedom of speech, true freedom of religiom, true freedom of sexuality.


It's a systematic ideological choice, not a pragmatic one and it's against all ex-Muslims and Muslim reformists. All of the above I mentioned had issues with official institutions in Europe
and public left wing figures in continental Europe and the UK.

They perceive Muslims as the new "weak" tribe in their post-colonial framework that need extra protection on ideological grounds even from mere offense in any context and that's group that contains sub-group produces the most violent offenders against other groups.
She receives regular death threats and the people who sent them were allowed to give a talk at the same academic institution justifying the killing (murder in Western societies) of apostates - all this does not taint their ideological convictions one little bit.

"And so the whitewash begins" she writes on her Facebook page - as the Irish times and other bastions of the Irish left try to blame the cancellation on her.

Written by deadone on 24.03.2015 at 02:23

I've never had a problem with say Hindus or Buddhists or Jews or most Christians in the West. They generally allow freedom or at least the freedom to disengage from the religion. I know Christian gay men who've been married by priests even if the government doesn't allow gay marriage. That's true freedom - they have their god and their sexuality.


The treatment is different. It is expected from them, especially in France and the US to find a sweet spot between integration and assimilation so of course they do better. The they are not kept in ghettos living off welfare. Have you read the hilarious statistics in Denmark that caused a debate in Denmark?
" just one out of every four refugees who came to Denmark between 2000-2003 was employed ten years later. " So no the Danish are correcting their rhetoric accordingly.
Although ideology plays an explicit and poverty as best a secondary-factor part it will be denied as well.

Written by deadone on 24.03.2015 at 02:23

It is in essence an authoritarian creed. Sure Christianity was like that 500 years ago but for the most part Christianity has been modernised or been neutered in terms of radical potency. This has not happened in Islam which is still stuck in the 7th century with a 17th century conflict (sectarian strife on Thirty Year's War) bolted on to it in the form of Sunni-Shia conflict.


Tell me about it. I follow regular Islamic apologetics like Dr. Zakir Naik and "Islam Net". It's nearly funny how the demagogic tactics and social dynamic are exactly the same as Christian and Jewish preachers. I see all the more reason why people should criticize these practices and ideologies when the reformist movement in Islam seems to small compared to the latter - but of course she got canceled
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 39969

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  27.03.2015 at 12:35
33 civilians died in Saudi's attack on Yemen ... whole middle east is quiet.. if it would be Isreal whole mid east be fucked up and shared hate posts in facebook
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mz

Posts: 3029

Age: 24


  27.03.2015 at 16:13
Written by Bad English on 27.03.2015 at 12:35

33 civilians died in Saudi's attack on Yemen ... whole middle east is quiet.. if it would be Isreal whole mid east be fucked up and shared hate posts in facebook


The situation is quiet different from those of Israel. Also, I really don't think that Iranian politicians are silent, for good or bad.
----
Giving my ears a rest from music.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 39969

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  27.03.2015 at 16:24
Written by mz on 27.03.2015 at 16:13

Written by Bad English on 27.03.2015 at 12:35

33 civilians died in Saudi's attack on Yemen ... whole middle east is quiet.. if it would be Isreal whole mid east be fucked up and shared hate posts in facebook


The situation is quiet different from those of Israel. Also, I really don't think that Iranian politicians are silent, for good or bad.


even it is but it doesn't change a fact all mid east bitching for Israel even when its not necessary
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
mz

Posts: 3029

Age: 24


  27.03.2015 at 16:35
Written by Bad English on 27.03.2015 at 16:24


even it is but it doesn't change a fact all mid east bitching for Israel even when its not necessary


If bitching about 1000 people being killed is unnecessary then I don't know what is necessary.
----
Giving my ears a rest from music.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 39969

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  27.03.2015 at 16:36
Written by mz on 27.03.2015 at 16:35

Written by Bad English on 27.03.2015 at 16:24


even it is but it doesn't change a fact all mid east bitching for Israel even when its not necessary


If bitching about 1000 people being killed is unnecessary then I don't know what is necessary.


Its true, but still in those air strikes what Saudi will do mnay civilians will die as well and non will give a fuck
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
mz

Posts: 3029

Age: 24


  27.03.2015 at 16:44
Written by Bad English on 27.03.2015 at 16:36


Its true, but still in those air strikes what Saudi will do mnay civilians will die as well and non will give a fuck


It's only your illusion that no one gives a fuck. Funny how you are ignoring the fact that the most important allies of US and West are involved in this attack.
----
Giving my ears a rest from music.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 39969

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  27.03.2015 at 18:52
Written by mz on 27.03.2015 at 16:44

Written by Bad English on 27.03.2015 at 16:36


Its true, but still in those air strikes what Saudi will do mnay civilians will die as well and non will give a fuck


It's only your illusion that no one gives a fuck. Funny how you are ignoring the fact that the most important allies of US and West are involved in this attack.


yes but those allies , I don't trust then , its basically attack that other groups what they don't belong,
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 592
From: Israel

  28.03.2015 at 12:18
Written by mz on 27.03.2015 at 16:35

If bitching about 1000 people being killed is unnecessary then I don't know what is necessary.



It's the special standards and politicization of "human rights". Europeans are not different than Russians or Americans in their selective choices of appliance or personal hypocrisy. It was detailed before in this thread.

Written by mz on 27.03.2015 at 16:44

It's only your illusion that no one gives a fuck. Funny how you are ignoring the fact that the most important allies of US and West are involved in this attack.


What do you except exactly? I don't think Sunni Arabs will are not taking Iranian hegemony in the area (Iraq, Lebanon, Syria) very well and Yemen is Saudi's and Egypt's 'backyard'.

As far as "Civilian casualties" are concerned in any conflict, it's especially nauseating listening to people who have no military experience speak so lightly of it as a tool for a political end. Especially spoilt Europeans.
As a reminder: NATO operations which included countries like the Netherlands and Belgium bombed media centers, civilian infrastructure, refugee columns, rescue forces who came to assist those on a bombed civilian bridge on a bombing second run, embassies, hospitals and you that's a partial list of fuck ups which were labeled "a necessary evil".

War isn't a computer game or some cynical political tool by people who have no idea what they're talking about. i have better conversations with Arab opposition members from Egypt and Syria, which two I personally met (needless to say they could never go back to from where they came) then by the group* I mentioned above.
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
mz

Posts: 3029

Age: 24


  28.03.2015 at 17:26
Written by Candlemass on 28.03.2015 at 12:18


It's the special standards and politicization of "human rights". Europeans are not different than Russians or Americans in their selective choices of appliance or personal hypocrisy. It was detailed before in this thread.




Well said.

Written by Candlemass on 28.03.2015 at 12:18


What do you except exactly? I don't think Sunni Arabs will are not taking Iranian hegemony in the area (Iraq, Lebanon, Syria) very well and Yemen is Saudi's and Egypt's 'backyard'.



It's frankly awkward that I have to defend IRI in this situation and I feel guilty of taking the side of such government but the fact is that the Saudi Arabia and likes of Turkey have supported ISIS and terrorists in the middle east. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has recently revealed his discomfort about what he calls the dominance of Iran, but he doesn't mention the fact that Iran actually does have constructive role in Iraq as it is the major force against the ISIS now.

Moreover, something similar happened before in Bahrain when Saudi Arabia forces intervened in the support of a dictator regime, acting against the Shia' majority.

If anyone is concerned about the Islamic terrorism, they he should first go for the role of Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
----
Giving my ears a rest from music.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 592
From: Israel

  28.03.2015 at 19:10
Written by mz on 28.03.2015 at 17:26

It's frankly awkward that I have to defend IRI in this situation and I feel guilty of taking the side of such government but the fact is that the Saudi Arabia and likes of Turkey have supported ISIS and terrorists in the middle east. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has recently revealed his discomfort about what he calls the dominance of Iran, but he doesn't mention the fact that Iran actually does have constructive role in Iraq as it is the major force against the ISIS now.

Moreover, something similar happened before in Bahrain when Saudi Arabia forces intervened in the support of a dictator regime, acting against the Shia' majority.

If anyone is concerned about the Islamic terrorism, they he should first go for the role of Saudi Arabia and Qatar.


Well, the politics in the ME are so tribal it's tragic. I'm glad things are seem to be working out in Tunisia.
The Iranians are not known for their positive roles as far as different ethnics groups go or any political opposition. In Iraq the Sunnis oppressed the Shia and now they're taking their turn. It's so bad people are talking about dictatorships in a positive way.

It's not a contradiction and I personally worried about Qatar (funding Hamas and with my luck I get called up every second summer for reserve). Regardless, sorry to sound cliched, but it's just depressing on the human dimension and it boiling down purity to political interest.
----
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