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The original post

Posted by Black Winter on 11.03.2008 at 21:55
Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points .



Page 60 of 60

deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6740
From: Australia

  04.09.2015 at 15:03
Written by Rasputin on 04.09.2015 at 10:50

@deadone

US squandered their currency long time ago, before Bush and Obama even.


No they actually got a ton of it when the USSR committed suicide. USA was seen as the winner and thus the right ideology. But unlike 1945 when they used things like the Marshall Plan to cement its dominance in Western Europe and parts of Asia, they just sat back and let the world get out of control. And when they acted they acted stupidly and then lost a shitload more influence.


Quote:
Bush cemented the Corporate interests even further when he aided his buddy DIck Chaney to make a fuckton of money through Haliburton contracts.


You have a poor grasp on history if you think what Bush and Chaney did were anything outside the norm even in terms of US foreign policy (look up Banana Wars).

As one of the US Marines most celebrated generals, Smedley Butler said:

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.



Quote:
And where did the concept of Greater Serbia end? The moment Serbia agreed to create a Kingdom with Slovenia and Croatia, which later will become Yugoslavia. If it wasn't for Serbia sacrificing it's territory there would be no Croatia, since Croatia would remain a province in the power of Austro-Hungary, minus Istra, Dalmacija and Slavonia, and as far as Slovenes were concerned they would be torn between Italy and Austro-Hungary. I distinctly remember, that even one Croatian historian recently made the claim that if it wasn't for Serbia, there would be no Croatia.

Serbia may be small, but it went to war enough times and had enemies build monuments in the honor of the fallen soldiers and their sacrifice, something that Croatia never achieved, since Croatia was always sucking someone else's dick, first Austro-Hungarian, then German, and now NATO/EU cocksuckers. The song dedicated to the "son of thousand summer dream" still rings true today. And I don't recall Serbia starting shit in the 90's, I remember it trying to preserve Yugoslavia to the last moment, but due to illegal separation and acts of terror aided by the NATO/USA was not able to. Then in 1999 this "borderline shithole" managed to survive 78 days of bombing by a superior force to everyone's amazement. Serbia has nothing to be ashamed off, quite the contrary


You stood and got bombed. Clap clap. That's not brave, it's stupid.

And you ignore Milosevic and the establishment of Krajina, siege of Sarajevo etc. You're a typical Serbian nationalist and I've met many of your type before, usually on military boards where your lot claim of Serbia being a victim and great victories inflicted against Croat, Bosnian and NATO invaders. Don't worry the wanker Croats are the same in terms of their misdeeds and fucked culture.

Thank you for confirming my opinion that most people tend to fall into stereotypes and you indeed fall into the Serbian stereotype.


Quote:

As far as the Russian thing goes, I agree for the most part, but I would not underestimate them just yet.


The mighty USSR never had the capability for true power projection outside its regional areas. So what makes you think the much smaller and much more neglected Russian military can do?

Since 1960 the only country with such capability is the USA. France and UK had it up to 1960s and then dismantled their militaries once they got out of the colonial game so today can only intervene in small scale ops and not say something like the Suez intervention in 1956 or even the Falklands in 1982.
deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6740
From: Australia

  04.09.2015 at 15:12
Written by Angel N. on 04.09.2015 at 14:23


Here we go...the gruesome if not cynical process of contextualizing a picture of a dead child. This is a classic argumentum ad passiones.




I was horrified at the usage of the image of that dead child. The sad thing is it's being used to justify more Islamic immigration to Europe as opposed to peace in the Middle East. Surely stopping the war is a better outcome than just sending all its people somewhere else (ie cure the illness, not the symptoms)..

But the left doesn't want peace in the middle east. That would rob it of some of its main slogans - "Evil USA, evil capitalism and evil Israel are responsible for all the ills in the region" and "West is a bunch of racists if they don't let more migrants in."
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 41875

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  04.09.2015 at 15:45
Written by Rasputin on 04.09.2015 at 13:09

]
Nope


it is, should be, so then question is deeper
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 41875

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  04.09.2015 at 23:04
Hungary will send army to guard Border between Serbia

Egyptian mlliardere dude whit multi billions offered to Italy and Greece sold small islands where non lives to him and he build pace where refuges will live
Greece are idiots IMO they must do, it would solve their financial situation ....

edit:
Hungarians and Romanians as whole Nazi E Europeans is bitching about migrants, but today game between Hungary and Romania
both natons used some medieval hate and try kill ach other because some medieval day shit, totally stupid, I predict in mid 90's Rus will do what they did in Georgia, ppl made fun about me even in MS. Now I think football fans will destroy Europe , specially E Europeans ... Steaua Sud vs Nord utras fought between them selfs, beat u Dinamo Bucuresti fan when he is own nation, ... sorry football fans are IDIOTS, specially E Euroeaian ULTRTAS.
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Rasputin

Posts: 473
From: USA

  Today at 00:53
Written by deadone on 04.09.2015 at 15:03

Written by Rasputin on 04.09.2015 at 10:50


No they actually got a ton of it when the USSR committed suicide. USA was seen as the winner and thus the right ideology. But unlike 1945 when they used things like the Marshall Plan to cement its dominance in Western Europe and parts of Asia, they just sat back and let the world get out of control. And when they acted they acted stupidly and then lost a shitload more influence.

You have a poor grasp on history if you think what Bush and Chaney did were anything outside the norm even in terms of US foreign policy (look up Banana Wars).

As one of the US Marines most celebrated generals, Smedley Butler said:

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

You stood and got bombed. Clap clap. That's not brave, it's stupid.

And you ignore Milosevic and the establishment of Krajina, siege of Sarajevo etc. You're a typical Serbian nationalist and I've met many of your type before, usually on military boards where your lot claim of Serbia being a victim and great victories inflicted against Croat, Bosnian and NATO invaders. Don't worry the wanker Croats are the same in terms of their misdeeds and fucked culture.

Thank you for confirming my opinion that most people tend to fall into stereotypes and you indeed fall into the Serbian stereotype.

The mighty USSR never had the capability for true power projection outside its regional areas. So what makes you think the much smaller and much more neglected Russian military can do?

Since 1960 the only country with such capability is the USA. France and UK had it up to 1960s and then dismantled their militaries once they got out of the colonial game so today can only intervene in small scale ops and not say something like the Suez intervention in 1956 or even the Falklands in 1982.

USA did what any empire did, fucked everyone else over, to include the allies and friends. USA has no friends anymore, aside from Israel who keeps getting aid for some reason. The other part is that USA government is too big to function properly, too corrupt to make a change for the better and too greedy to stop toppling regimes they do not like in order to steal the resources. The colonization never ended, we just call it Globalization now.

Bush and Chaney were some of the examples, USA has been meddling and extending Corporate interests for over a century. Confessions of an Economic Hitman was a great read among others, which clearly demonstrates the coups that were funded and orchestrated by the USA.

Please do tell, what great War has Croatia fought an won instead of running away or just joining with whichever force came through? I keep hearing about the brave Croatian soldiers, yet in history books and reports from even WWI, WWII and 1990's we hear nothing but disgust, atrocity and inhumanity. I strongly recommend for Jasenovac diaries to be read, where they in detail explained what they did to Serbian children, and now Ustasha's are heroes. Clap, clap, good job.

Milosevic establishment of Krajina? You mean the territory that was ethnically cleansed and where people were pushed out as a "legal operation?" Right. Krajina, large portion of BiH belonged to Serbia according to the treaty, however that was waived for the sake of Yugoslavia, so naturally, since you did not want to be in Yugoslavia anymore, you lost the claim to that land. I wonder how you would judge things, if the roles were reversed, if Croatia wanted to preserve Yugoslavia and Serbia wanted to separate, I wonder if you would be so nonchalant. What about Sarajevo? The Serb side tried to prevent a war, but again with the aid of the West, and the war profiteering that was created by the UN/NATO it turned into a disaster. There are no Bosnians, all those are Muslim Serbs, but thanks to the insane ideology, the Slavs have been separated to fight each other, and a lot of it we can thank the Catholic church for, since we all know that Croatia was Clero-Fascist and that Slovenia was just bidding it's time to separate because they were more Western than they were Slav.

I for one do not claim we inflicted great victory against the Muslims, Croats and NATO, but luckily we at least were able to preserve some Serbian lives in the form of Republika Srpska.

Russia is not SSSR, and Russia today is not Russia from 1995 where they did not have shit. They are evolving, and they are building their power again. While I agree that on a long term scale the Russians may not sustain their presence in the Middle East, they still have more tricks up their sleeves, since USA is slowing down with it's massive debt, and I think China will surpass both Russia and USA, and it will be interesting to see how that will go.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 41875

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  Today at 00:58
Written by Rasputin on Today at 00:53


Russia is not SSSR, and Russia today is not Russia from 1995 where they did not have shit. They are evolving, and they are building their power again. While I agree that on a long term scale the Russians may not sustain their presence in the Middle East, they still have more tricks up their sleeves, since USA is slowing down with it's massive debt, and I think China will surpass both Russia and USA, and it will be interesting to see how that will go.


but many people lives there, any people likes it and wants it back, many ppl hasn't seen world and whole country principle is ussr, so to me Rus will be ussr whole the time, until they wont tramaticaly changes as Ukraine tries to
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6740
From: Australia

  Today at 01:45
Written by Rasputin on Today at 00:53


USA did what any empire did, fucked everyone else over, to include the allies and friends. USA has no friends anymore, aside from Israel who keeps getting aid for some reason. The other part is that USA government is too big to function properly, too corrupt to make a change for the better and too greedy to stop toppling regimes they do not like in order to steal the resources. The colonization never ended, we just call it Globalization now.

Bush and Chaney were some of the examples, USA has been meddling and extending Corporate interests for over a century. Confessions of an Economic Hitman was a great read among others, which clearly demonstrates the coups that were funded and orchestrated by the USA.


You're now repeating what I've been saying all along!


Quote:

Please do tell, what great War has Croatia fought an won instead of running away or just joining with whichever force came through? I keep hearing about the brave Croatian soldiers, yet in history books and reports from even WWI, WWII and 1990's we hear nothing but disgust, atrocity and inhumanity. I strongly recommend for Jasenovac diaries to be read, where they in detail explained what they did to Serbian children, and now Ustasha's are heroes. Clap, clap, good job.


Given Croatia was at best a puppet state and usually part of someone elses's empire I don't see how they could fight in any wars. The Ustasha did stick it out with the Nazis in WWII t the bitter end.

Oh and the Croat military did actually win their war in 1995. Not bad for a force that didn't even exist in 1990.


Quote:
Milosevic establishment of Krajina? You mean the territory that was ethnically cleansed and where people were pushed out as a "legal operation?"


Typical Serbian historical misrepresentation.

Krajina was established in 1990-91 and wasn't ethnically cleansed until 1995.

Quote:
Right. Krajina, large portion of BiH belonged to Serbia according to the treaty, however that was waived for the sake of Yugoslavia,



Untrue. Krajina was always part of Croatian territory administered by Austria-Hungary despite Serb population . BiH was an Ottoman province until 1878 when it became an Austrian-Hungarian province.


I've never heard of anything that ceded Krajina to Serbia just lik I've never heard of anything that cedes Hercegonvia to Croatia (except in the dreams of nationalists and fascists).

Quote:

so naturally, since you did not want to be in Yugoslavia anymore, you lost the claim to that land.


You Serbs might want to get up to speed with modern concepts - the UN recognised Croatia under old Yugoslav state boundaries which themselves predated any concept of Yugoslavia (ie date back to Austrian-Hungarian and Ottoman times save some post WWII tinkerings to punish Italy (Istra and Zadar) and from memory Hungary).


Quote:
I wonder how you would judge things, if the roles were reversed, if Croatia wanted to preserve Yugoslavia and Serbia wanted to separate, I wonder if you would be so nonchalant.


I don't care either way. My interest is purely historical and socio-political. Trust me I'd debate you on your historical fallacies if the topic was about Falklands, Arab-Israeli Wars or India-Pakistan Wars.


Quote:
What about Sarajevo?


Your people lay siege to the city. Plain and simple.

Quote:

The Serb side tried to prevent a war,


You are completely delusional. The Serbs were as warmongering as the Croats, the Albanians and Bosnin muslims. We're talking savage peoples who can be coopted to murder each other at the drop of a hat.

If they were so peaceful why where the bombing Croatian cities at the onset of the war. Why did they destroy Vukovar? Why did they commit attrocities? (Everyone else did that too).

I experienced the "peaceful" Serbs in action by the way in 1991. Not sure how laying siege to a city that was always Italian or Croatian was a peaceful act or attempts at keeping that city within Yugoslavia.

Quote:
but again with the aid of the West, and the war profiteering that was created by the UN/NATO it turned into a disaster. There are no Bosnians, all those are Muslim Serbs, but thanks to the insane ideology, the Slavs have been separated to fight each other, and a lot of it we can thank the Catholic church for, since we all know that Croatia was Clero-Fascist and that Slovenia was just bidding it's time to separate because they were more Western than they were Slav.


So clearly all the Slavs should just accept Serb dominance?

Quote:
Russia is not SSSR, and Russia today is not Russia from 1995 where they did not have shit. They are evolving, and they are building their power again. While I agree that on a long term scale the Russians may not sustain their presence in the Middle East, they still have more tricks up their sleeves, since USA is slowing down with it's massive debt, and I think China will surpass both Russia and USA, and it will be interesting to see how that will go.


Agree on China.

Russia is not building it's power. Most of its military developments are to try and maintain whatever conventional capability they have. The naval ship building program is a disaster. And the professionalism of the army has failed with professional soldiers performing no better than conscripts in Georgia. To make matters worst Putin reduced serving time for conscripts to a mere year which means they get virtually no decent training. The only reliable military forces within Russian military are the airborne units and then only 4-5 battalions of them meet the basic standards required by Western NATO countries.

Luckily their foes have been even more incompetent. Even NATO aligned Georgia's army was badly motivated garbage without a good officer corp or decent command, control and coordination (and t's best formation was fighting for the Americans at the time in either Iraq or Afghanistan). The Ukranians are even more useless save some neo-fascist militias.

As for economic power, they don't have it. And they don't have much diplomatic clout either. Russia matters in the old ex-USSR. Outside of that it's an irritance.

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