Written by X-Ray Rod on 21.02.2012 at 22:29

To me complexity means nothing in terms of inteligence, under tht thought all the technical death metal bands would be "highly inteligent" while doom metal would easily be the dumbest genre around.

That my friend is a great point, but I am not gonna change my mind. The more complex and technical the music the more intelligent...

Written by Milena on 21.02.2012 at 15:53

Written by R'Vannith on 21.02.2012 at 15:15

Ah this old argument Inevitable in a prog thread I suppose.
Prog for me is more about creativity than intelligence. I would say prog is more creative (my own opinion of course) not more intelligent. There is some pretty unintelligent music out there in the world, prog is no exception.

Prog doesn't raise your IQ but it does raise your attention span, attention to detail and it requires a bit of bravado to stick with a piece of music which may prove an utter waste of time in the hope of getting something worthwhile out of it. While the whole 'grow on you' factor is at play in many other genres, in prog it's more usually a clear division between whether it's going to get better after repeated listens or it's still going to sound like a load of complex yet uninteresting music.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's generally the case that prog doesn't really 'grab you' from the get go as often as you might get with other genres.

I agree with most of your points here. A lot of genres get away with their elitists, but if a progster is an elitist, that suddenly reaffirms the age old stereotypes that we all are; in the mean time, I don't remember crossing paths with a lot of them on prog threads. Teamster isn't an elitist, but because he chose to describe prog music as intelligent, that translates to other people as "PROG IS SURPREME INTELLIGENT MUSIC FOR INTELLIGENT PEOPLE, PROG POWAAAAA". I think that's an adjective just like any other.


The thing I love the most about prog is that it's conventional enough to follow (some of) its own guidelines at all times, so I know the kind of thing I'm about to get (just like you said, I know good prog from bad prog pretty much 10 minutes into the album); but yet its base was designed to be unconventional. And I like that predictable unpredictability. It is a fine balance that you don't get while going full-on avant, for example.

I think the "hard to get into" facet of prog is vastly overrated. Maybe my brain is naturally wired to derive pleasure from odd time signatures and similar, so I don't get people who say it's pointless or whatever. When you listen to a prog album for the first time, you're being taken places, and it is meant for you to be excited about the ride. The second time, you already know approximately how it was going, the dynamic pieces give you adrenaline, the soft give you bliss, you dig into the combo a bit more and you're just a bit more familiar with the groove. That's all it takes. A couple of listens. Just with any other album. The only difference is that (stereotypically), because of the (assumed) complexity of the music, you have more nuggets to uncover with each listen.

Just look at what this Enochian Theory band member started

Written by tea[m]ster on 22.02.2012 at 00:11
The more complex and technical the music the more intelligent...

In that case "intelligent" is purely based on the composition, regardless if the music has any feeling or not. Which is a very shallow meaning of "intelligence" specially in art, this argument could be expanded on many things like paitings, where minimalist work would be considered less intelligent regardless if it actually has far more meaning that a complex painting. Like a simpler painting critizing something like human nature being less intelligent than a complex yet still meaningless landscape of a forest. That's how the term wankery appeared in the first place.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 22.02.2012 at 00:19

Written by tea[m]ster on 22.02.2012 at 00:11
The more complex and technical the music the more intelligent...

In that case "intelligent" is purely based on the composition, regardless if the music has any feeling or not.

It's tough. I may "feel" something about a specific piece of music more so than you. Does that make you less intelligent? Of course not.

This is a really good topic...not sure if their is a "right or "wrong"" answer.

Written by tea[m]ster on 22.02.2012 at 00:25

Written by X-Ray Rod on 22.02.2012 at 00:19

Written by tea[m]ster on 22.02.2012 at 00:11
The more complex and technical the music the more intelligent...

In that case "intelligent" is purely based on the composition, regardless if the music has any feeling or not.

It's tough. I may "feel" something about a specific piece of music more so than you. Does that make you less intelligent? Of course not.

This is a really good topic...not sure if their is a "right or "wrong"" answer.

My problem isn't thinking of prog as "intelligent music" my problem is that this thought automatically makes other music "dumb". Which is something I regard wrong in countless levels just because of the reasons I stated above when I took the painting example (which you might have missed as it was a late edit) not to mention the thought of a genre being more intelligent than another (and I'm not only talking about music here) is awfully elitist.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 22.02.2012 at 00:19

Like a simpler painting critizing something like human nature being less intelligent than a complex yet still meaningless landscape of a forest. That's how the term wankery appeared in the first place.

Yes, but now are you doing the opposite and yet also totally wrong thing, you're drawing a line between something complex and something without any feelings. You can now get out of it and say that ofc you didn't mean that all complex music is emotionless; but in the same way, teamster didn't mean that all complex music is intelligent.

And call me biased, but I don't get how certain genres are lauded for sounding "relentless, complex, crushing" or whatever it is the adjectives you guys use when describing a death metal drummer who simply won't stop for 45 minutes, but if someone like John Petrucci wants to play a solo that lasts longer than a minute or heaven forbid have a long exchange with the keyboardist it's all WANKERY ALERT NO EMOTIONS AHEAD. I'm not saying all his solos are good, but whose are, really? Emotion in music is a subjective thing, some feel it in some types of music, some others do not

What also bugs me is the expression "complexity for complexity's sake". Is there a good reason for complexity anyway, other than to have a little fun, for the sake of it? We all grew up on guitar heroes, what's wrong with a little "look at his fingers go". Some prog musicians might do this more than they should, but that's just how they roll. They play it because it's fun and, yes, challenging, to play.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 22.02.2012 at 00:00

Like mister Doc says complexity has nothing to do with intelligence.

tbh I would even dar say that less complex music is more iintelligent than complex music becuase it actually makes you think and it tries and usually does invoke more emotions than so called intelligent music,

That's an interesting idea, the complexity may be more of a distraction than less complex stuff and therefore inhibit those intelligent thoughts we can have when listening. At least I think that's what your getting at there. Hadn't thought of it like that before.

Different genres will evoke a different emotional response from person to person though, so some might find prog more emotional. Besides that's being very general, it all comes down to individual pieces of music within the genre, some evoke more of a response from the listener, some less so and it may differ in another persons case.

Written by Milena on 22.02.2012 at 01:44
Comment

Long story short: Complexity does not make music more intelligent...It just makes it (yeah...you guessed it) complex. That's all there is to it and that's all I really wanted to say. I wasn't poiting fingers at any band either so...

Quote:
Emotion in music is a subjective thing, some feel it in some types of music, some others do not

Yeah... My previous painting argument was invalid and silly, true.... and while emotion is a subjective thing. That's why I don't want to talk about feelings, emotions and shit because they don't mean nothing to the original discussion so it's just irrelevant.

Complexity and intelligence are definitely NOT subjective matters and that's something we can discuss.

PS: If someone felt I call him/her elitist. I didn't do that. Peace out.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 22.02.2012 at 00:00

tbh I would even dar say that less complex music is more iintelligent than complex music becuase it actually makes you think and it tries and usually does invoke more emotions than so called intelligent music,

No no no no, I'm sorry, less notes do not equal more emotions or more intelligence. Thing one, the emotional response to genres varies from person to person, which we can easily remember if we look at people who find no emotions in metal (unlike us all), and thing two, if it's "arrogant" and elitist to assume that complex music is more intelligent, the same goes for simple music.

For me such discussions always come down to semantics, i.e. what we mean by intelligent when we talk about music. For some people, that might mean the intentional use of musical theory in song construction or intentional use of a certain exotic scale or whatever; and those people who dig those things and can hear them in music will really appreciate that and call that intelligent.

This discussion can be approached from the emotions side, but that will place intelligence in a different context. One person will hear a musician use an effect on his instrument to invoke a certain emotion, and the listener will say, "that is very smart/intelligent." Another musician will play a repeating sequence of a few notes or a certain repeating passage to invoke a trance-like atmosphere, and another listener (feeling that trance) will say, "Man, that's an original [although simple] idea." My personal example here is the latest album by Lazarus A.D.. It is not overly complex, but the song structures are very smart. I wrote about that in my review. I consider that music intelligent therefore. So, from this point of view, intelligence = creativity.

Overall, I do not think intelligence even has to be correlated with complexity, leave alone be caused by it.

I recomnded this

Van Der Graaf Generator
Fleetwood Mac (first three albums, later they play synth pop)
Eloy
Tangerine Dream (they have over 100 albums but listen to them)
Pavlov's Dog
King Crimson
Uriah Heep (first 4 or 5 albums, they are great)
Rush
Talking Heads
Supertramp
Marillion
Camel

Written by K✞ulu on 22.02.2012 at 12:20

For me such discussions always come down to semantics

Thank you! That was the word I only remembered after we've moved on from this a bit, thanks for putting that point in.

Written by Guest on 22.02.2012 at 14:28

I recomnded this

Van Der Graaf Generator
Fleetwood Mac (first three albums, later they play synth pop)
Eloy
Tangerine Dream (they have over 100 albums but listen to them)
Pavlov's Dog
King Crimson
Uriah Heep (first 4 or 5 albums, they are great)
Rush
Talking Heads
Supertramp
Marillion
Camel

nice choices; I have to be a douche and complain that Fleetwood Mac is not prog though.

Written by Guest on 22.02.2012 at 18:11

Written by Guest on 22.02.2012 at 14:28

I recomnded this

Van Der Graaf Generator
Fleetwood Mac (first three albums, later they play synth pop)
Eloy
Tangerine Dream (they have over 100 albums but listen to them)
Pavlov's Dog
King Crimson
Uriah Heep (first 4 or 5 albums, they are great)
Rush
Talking Heads
Supertramp
Marillion
Camel

nice choices; I have to be a douche and complain that Fleetwood Mac is not prog though.

And neither are Talking Heads and Supertramp

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 22.02.2012 at 19:24

Written by Guest on 22.02.2012 at 18:11

Written by Guest on 22.02.2012 at 14:28

I recomnded this

Van Der Graaf Generator
Fleetwood Mac (first three albums, later they play synth pop)
Eloy
Tangerine Dream (they have over 100 albums but listen to them)
Pavlov's Dog
King Crimson
Uriah Heep (first 4 or 5 albums, they are great)
Rush
Talking Heads
Supertramp
Marillion
Camel

nice choices; I have to be a douche and complain that Fleetwood Mac is not prog though.

And neither are Talking Heads and Supertramp

I agree on Talking Heads although they were influenced by prog; 70s Supertramp is progressive, especially their 1974 album Crime of the Century, a timeless masterpiece if you ask me.

Why? TH were formed when New Wave was on the top but they are prog band in most of the cases...And Supertramp pure progressive. Like JohnDoe says 1974 album COTC, just listen first track School...pure pure pure progressive...

Written by Guest on 22.02.2012 at 18:11

Written by Guest on 22.02.2012 at 14:28

I recomnded this

Van Der Graaf Generator
Fleetwood Mac (first three albums, later they play synth pop)
Eloy
Tangerine Dream (they have over 100 albums but listen to them)
Pavlov's Dog
King Crimson
Uriah Heep (first 4 or 5 albums, they are great)
Rush
Talking Heads
Supertramp
Marillion
Camel

nice choices; I have to be a douche and complain that Fleetwood Mac is not prog though.

I love FM first three albums with Peter Green, later they became f*cking Madonna

Yeah, Supertramp is progressive. Although they tend to be more pop rock 'Crime of the Century' is very much a progressive piece. Not as familiar with Talking Heads but they're like a post-punk/progressive mix I think, from what I've heard at least.

If this is still active, I just stumbled on Whalerider. Pretty good stuff

http://whalerider.bandcamp.com/album/was-it-only-a-dream

Written by Edmund Fogg on 18.03.2012 at 04:53

If this is still active

It should be

Supertramp = Amazingly awesome.

Anything related to prog. will eventually help me to incredible failure. the least favorite genre of mine. anyways, will check it out some recommended above so that i can one day suggest you guys an awesome prog rock/ Metal band.

Get your prog boner ready!

http://scripturesrecords.bandcamp.com/album/scriptures

Written by Edmund Fogg on 23.03.2012 at 04:18

http://scripturesrecords.bandcamp.com/album/scriptures

nice find!

Written by tea[m]ster on 24.03.2012 at 17:59

nice find!

Yeah. Too bad it's just available for streaming

A local band that is redefining beauty in music. Progressions a smooth as can be. Music that makes any QC rocker proud.

http://opossaum.bandcamp.com/album/couvert-2

Milena has just started her "finally give a proper listen to all those 70's prog bands she always thought were awesome but never heard more than the most famous album from them" six month cycle. Golden periods of each will be covered properly at last, now that I have enough hard drive space
So, yeah... Rush.

Written by Milena on 02.04.2012 at 10:15

Golden periods of each will be covered properly at last.

Make sure you do that, or those six months could become six years.
Now that you mention it, I've never heard the entire discography of any old prog rock band. Maybe I can count Genesis, since I don't have interest in any post-Gabriel era records.

Written by Unhealer on 02.04.2012 at 15:44

Make sure you do that, or those six months could become six years.
Now that you mention it, I've never heard the entire discography of any old prog rock band. Maybe I can count Genesis, since I don't have interest in any post-Gabriel era records.

They have pretty huge discogs, all of them, but most progsters I've asked agree that, even if some think all of it is worth hearing, not all of it is prog anyway, so I might as well skip them for now.

This thread is a stereotypical to one and only Mora. Every nook and cranny of this thread screaming her name for share Prog stuff and often you will find her more than you gonna find on other threads. Just saying.