America's Health Care Law

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soadbyob

Posts: 525

Age: 21
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 18:10
Obama recently had his health care bill passed into law requiring every US citizen to have health insurance. What are your opinions on this subject. Do you like or dislike this bill. I personaly dislike at the moment because at this time we are all required to be insured, but the goverments not paying for it, we are. Also, Non-American users feel free to comment I would like to see your opinion on this.
---- There is a God, his name is Ronnie James Dio. He didn't die, he just went home.

Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 33889

Age: 45
From: The Netherlands

	26.03.2010 at 18:36
Written by soadbyob on 26.03.2010 at 18:10 (...)recently had his health care bill passed into law requiring every US citizen to have health insurance. (....) at this time we are all required to be insured, but the goverments not paying for it, we are. Welcome to the reality of The Netherlands that has been in place ever since I was small kid.
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.) 05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

BreadGod
Captain Virgin

Posts: 4042

Age: 22
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 19:03
I don't really like the part where it is mandatory to buy private health insurance. I'd rather have no health insurance than to have mandatory private insurance. Of course, I have social security, so I'm pretty much covered. Also, I find it strange that Republicans are bitching and moaning about how the health care bill will destroy America even though they offer up no health care plan of their own. The way I see it, the Republican health care plan is basically this: "Don't get sick, and if you do get sick, die quickly." Of course, the Democrats are not free of guilt. They're the majority party, but instead of standing up for themselves, they decide to concede to Republicans at every corner of the road like a bunch of wimps. It's this kind of bullshit that proves that the American government is completely broken.
---- Death Metal Bread MAH BLAAGH Quote: Clearly your a virgin, go join captain virgin and the virginteers , the power is your lol

I_Die_Often

Posts: 670

Age: 47
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 20:41
I feel they shouldn't force people to have health care, if you don't want it, you don't get care. Period! And people who are wealthy enough to just pay as they need don't need to be forced into health care. You know someone on the sidelines is going to profit from this, that is how our Gov't works, personal agenda.
---- Old enough to be your Daddy... speaking of which... you look familiar... do I know your mother???

BitterCOld
doomtrain

Posts: 11598

Age: 40
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 21:14
For starters, Insinerate, you are completely wrong in regards to the Republican "don't get sick" approach. Hooray for just believing what you are told. the GOP plan has been up and available on the web for MONTHS, the media simply opts not to cover it because they don't like the Republicans (outside FOX news... which is accused of being propaganda, while it slants to the right just as every other fucking network slants equally to the left. most Americans are just to dense to grasp that) ... the GOP plan is one that made more sense to me and centered around two principals. 1. Tort Reform. Fuck the lawyers. keep them out of healthcare. Tort reform would limit two things - 1, the amount that can be awarded due to a lawsuit and 2, what the lawyer's percentage cut would be. i.e. instead of suing a hospital and getting $35,000,000 because a surgeon made a mistake while performing surgery to save your life, with your lawyer getting 35% of it... instead you get $250k, of which the lawyer gets $50k. game over. people bitch about insurance costs without knowing what Doctors have to pay. a co-worker of mine worked at a hospital for a decade. a Doc confided once that though he made $250,000 a year, he had to pay over $100,000 in malpractice insurance just in case he gets sued. Hospital costs are inflated because they run additional, unnecessary tests preemptively to defend against law suits. And they need to generate income to cover their legal liabilities. the Senate bill, 2,700 pages, contains NOTHING on tort reform. Pelosi's House bill actually had wording in it PROTECTING lawyers, denying some funding to any state which passed a law capping either the amount of a financial award, or the lawyer's percentage take. 2 - portability. Competition is good. it drives prices down as businesses compete for marketshare. i can get my car insurance from anywhere in the US. my mortgage is from a bank half a country away. but i can only buy insurance from a provide in-state. it seriously impacts costs when there are only 2-3 providers for a state. open up insurance to competition across state lines. when more companies are competing, they will have to provide better service at a better price if companies want to survive. (incidentally, evil health insurance companies only make 2.5 cents to the dollar... that's a slim profit margin). these two fixes would succeed in reducing cost to people like me, who buy their own insurance, as well as reduce costs to businesses who provide it for their employees. and these two ideas would cost very little to enact. cost being kind of important at this juncture. instead...
---- get the fuck off my lawn.

BitterCOld
doomtrain

Posts: 11598

Age: 40
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 21:38
We get a $1,000,000,000,000 bill which requires 10 years of taxation to break even covering only 7 year's worth of service. and it only broke even after the Dems engaged in the same kind of shady accounting that caused Wall Street companies and Enron to come crashing down. the costs NEVER match up with projections. historic cases with things like Medicare have shown they end up being about, oh, off by a factor of 900%. and not in the favor of savings. we get the creation of huge amounts of bureaucratic institutions that will now exist between you and your health care provider... all gobbling up $$$$$ off the public teat. and once created, the will not easily go away. we get a bill rife with bribery and extortion - the cornhusker kickback, the louisiana purchase, spending $100,000,000 on an airport to buy Stupak's vote. we get a major overhaul of an industry that is 1/6th the US economy* that instead of typical Legislative rules require 60% support, got jammed through with barely 50%. it's mob rule. Americans were duped into believing it's "Free" health care. it's not. Every fucking one of us will pay for it. and keep paying for it. and our children will REALLY pay for it. we get a bill that has so much bureaucracy associated with it that 35% of physicians said they would be willing to leave the profession if it passed. (How is access going to improve when lose 35% of doctors, but add another 30,000,000 people to the mix?) * oh yes, and the US economy. we hear a lot about how Bush spent like a drunken sailor (he did), but 0bama is spending like the drunken 7th Fleet. that was done BEFORE the passage of this health care monstrosity. Medicare is horribly in the red. social security is a time bomb just starting to go off this year, when there will be more in payouts than revenue. the post office is so far in the red they are talking about closing on Saturdays and 5 day delivery now. even 0bama's "Cash For Clunkers" ended up horribly overbudget with American taxpayers paying an average $24,000 per vehicle.... at the rate we WERE spending before this passed, those of you US metalstormers just getting out of college now were going to pay, in your lifetime, some $113,000 in income taxes just to meet the interest on the debt this administration is adding. think about that for a moment. $113,000 just to even out the interest - not to pay down our debt, nor pay for whatever services the gov't provides in 2015, 2020, 2040, etc... just on INTEREST. shit came out today stating that by 2020 our debt will account for 90% of our GDP. the reason we had an economic crash in this country was too many people lived beyond their means, buying shit they couldn't afford and putting it on a credit card. thanks to dems pushing Fanny and Freddie, too many people bought houses they couldn't afford. too many companies also spent likewise, or engaged in risky behavior. Credit ran out, market crushed. People started defaulting on mortgages, the housing market collapsed (and still has yet to recover. i'm responsible, thank you, bought a house Mrs. COld and i could afford... and our mortgage is now "underwater" - our house is actually worth less than we owe on it, as result of the housing boom that occurred to handle the demand from douchebags buying houses when they couldn't afford car payments, let alone mortgages) ... same shit with companies... of course WE ended up bailing them out. Now 0bama, Speaker Cryptkeeper, and Harry Reid are engaging in the same behavior that got the private sector, and U.S. citizens i trouble - but only at a much more rapid pace and on a national level. if you are living well beyond your means when the bell tolls, you and yours are fucked. if a company is living well beyond it's financial capability, when the bell tolls, that company and it's employees are fucked. and when the gov't is living well beyond it's means.... well, when it collapses, we're all fucked. and not just Americans, for those of you reading and gloating. there will be disastrous consequences across the global economy. the fact is some 10% of our country is unemployed (actually closer to 18% when you count those whose benefits have run out or who have just given up)... which means state and federal revenues are down. the primary issue should be job creation - not ramming down a piece of legislation which will shackle economic recovery by adding all sorts of provisions and taxes which will stifle job creation. it seems to me to be simple math: more people working = more money going in to the system and less money paid out of it to those on entitlements. less people working = more money coming in and more money paid out to those requiring entitlements. 0bama keeps claiming that the economy and job creation are his key concern, yet he has spent the last year trying to push this through... this will result in more and more unemployment. the Dems in power were not listening as they tried to ram this down our throat for the past year. they weren't listening when 66% of people were against it. they weren't listening when usually democrat strongholds Virginia and NJ suddenly found Republicans in the Governor's mansion last fall. they weren't listening when over 1,000,000 people marched on Washington last July. they weren't listening when one of the most liberal states of all, Massachusetts, ended up voting in a conservative to the seat formerly occupied by the "Lion of the Left", 40 year Senator, and date-killer Ted Kennedy... you know, of those Kennedys. they still aren't listening now - which is good. time to vote out all the bastards this November.
---- get the fuck off my lawn.

BitterCOld
doomtrain

Posts: 11598

Age: 40
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 21:57
Written by BreadGod on 26.03.2010 at 19:03 Of course, the Democrats are not free of guilt. They're the majority party, but instead of standing up for themselves, they decide to concede to Republicans at every corner of the road like a bunch of wimps. this statement is beyond full of fail. if the entire health care debate were a family holiday dinner, the democrats got all the spots at the grown-up table. the republicans didn't even get to sit at the kiddie table. instead, they were relegated to the role of family dog, kept outside and unable to see in on the dinner as the blinds were drawn shut. as the dems had their supermajority, they simply felt they did not need (or want) any GOP input. all this during 0bama's "post-partisan" government. in the end, because the dems couldn't bribe, blackmail, and extort each other in an attempt to pass this (i.e. the stupak $100m airport, louisiana purchase, cornhusker kickback) quickly enough before Massachusetts voted in a Republican to replace Kennedy's seat and the supermajority was lost, they had to finally give the republicans some say. net result, probably around 24 pages out of 2,700 are GOP ideas. the rest is all the democrats own filth. if this piece were remotely bipartisan, and the democrats conceded as you implied, i imagine maybe they would have gotten at least one republican to cross the line and vote for it. instead, they couldn't even get their own party to vote for it. but go ahead and blame the "obstructionist" (labeled as such even when they lacked the power to actually obstruct anything) republicans. you done been indoctrinated real good.
---- get the fuck off my lawn.

BreadGod
Captain Virgin

Posts: 4042

Age: 22
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 22:09
BitterCOld's posts: tl;dr
---- Death Metal Bread MAH BLAAGH Quote: Clearly your a virgin, go join captain virgin and the virginteers , the power is your lol

BitterCOld
doomtrain

Posts: 11598

Age: 40
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 22:14
Written by BreadGod on 26.03.2010 at 22:09 BitterCOld's posts: tl;dr funny, that's what most of our elected officials said about the 2,700 page bill they just passed into law.
---- get the fuck off my lawn.

BreadGod
Captain Virgin

Posts: 4042

Age: 22
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 22:17
Written by BitterCOld on 26.03.2010 at 22:14 Written by BreadGod on 26.03.2010 at 22:09 BitterCOld's posts: tl;dr funny, that's what most of our elected officials said about the 2,700 page bill they just passed into law. I don't care about your opinions.
---- Death Metal Bread MAH BLAAGH Quote: Clearly your a virgin, go join captain virgin and the virginteers , the power is your lol

BitterCOld
doomtrain

Posts: 11598

Age: 40
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 22:22
Written by BreadGod on 26.03.2010 at 22:17 Written by BitterCOld on 26.03.2010 at 22:14 Written by BreadGod on 26.03.2010 at 22:09 BitterCOld's posts: tl;dr funny, that's what most of our elected officials said about the 2,700 page bill they just passed into law. I don't care about your opinions. actually a good chunk of that rant is fact. particularly in regards to the horrible financial state of Medicare, Social Security, and this plan which requires 10 years taxation to break even on 7 years services (with shifty accounting)... that handy chart is per White House and non-partisan Congressional Budget Office figures. not my opinion. their projections. but you're 19. enjoy paying off and for the babyboomers and my generation's sins for the rest of your life because you just swallowed what they fed you.
---- get the fuck off my lawn.

BreadGod
Captain Virgin

Posts: 4042

Age: 22
From: USA

	26.03.2010 at 22:23
Written by BitterCOld on 26.03.2010 at 22:22 Written by BreadGod on 26.03.2010 at 22:17 Written by BitterCOld on 26.03.2010 at 22:14 Written by BreadGod on 26.03.2010 at 22:09 BitterCOld's posts: tl;dr funny, that's what most of our elected officials said about the 2,700 page bill they just passed into law. I don't care about your opinions. actually a good chunk of that rant is fact. particularly in regards to the horrible financial state of Medicare, Social Security, and this plan which requires 10 years taxation to break even on 7 years services (with shifty accounting)... that handy chart is per White House and non-partisan Congressional Budget Office figures. not my opinion. their projections. but you're 19. enjoy paying off and for the babyboomers and my generation's sins for the rest of your life because you just swallowed what they fed you. I reject your reality and substitute my own.
---- Death Metal Bread MAH BLAAGH Quote: Clearly your a virgin, go join captain virgin and the virginteers , the power is your lol

taka

Posts: 960

Age: 31
From: Austria

26.03.2010 at 23:03

Written by BitterCOld on 26.03.2010 at 21:38

time to vote out all the bastards this November.

are you a teabagger?

it certainly sounds like it, typical talking points, I identified at least 20 things that glenn beck says in his speeches. But, I don't have the time nor energy for this debate.

But I will say this: while I do not agree with the health-care reform in the us by any means, why do you think that in every study, countries with universal health care not only pay less for health insurance but have higher life expectancy, lower child mortality rates and are generally healthier than the us. Maybe there are lessons to be learned. But you need not necessarily have state-run health insurance. When I lived in switzerland, you were required to buy insurance and you could buy it from any private insurance company you liked. You could buy the cheap one that insured you up to a certain sum or the expensive one. So the swiss model is more in tune with the us-mentality of "freedom" of the market. But on the other hand, there are tough regulations on those private insurers so they cannot fuck you up for profit, which they do.

If you look at the bill, most things make sense, please tell me which of these does not make sense:

"Insurance companies barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits eliminated and annual limits restricted.
Insurers barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.
Young adults able to stay on their parents' health plans until age 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.
Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new program that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.
Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.
A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.
A 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.
Medicare provides 10 percent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.
Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.
A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.
Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organizations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.
Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions."
etc

Actually, you did not make any point about what is in the bill except the cost. So about that, yes, so much debt is not good (there are problems also in europe), but did you stop to think a little why every other country in the industrialized world offers so much more in terms of "socialized" medicine at a fraction of the cost per capita compared to the us, and the system works better, people get more benefits, people are healthier, and the debt is not skyrocketing.

So maybe you should worry about why your system is so inefficient, and it is certainly not because of the public option or socialized medicine. Free market to reduce costs? Not with health insurance. Every private insurer who does not drop people from insurance and just pays will go bankrupt very quickly.

I suspect that we think differently about what society is and what it should be. Perhaps the most cruel side of society is that it is not a meritocracy and more often than not luck determines the fate of people. One effect of unequal income distribution is that poor people suffer more from illness and die younger. Yet, in countries where there is universal heath care and single-payer system, this is not the case. Look at canada vs usa as an illustration. So, for me, the role of a civilized society is to care for all people, regardless of their social status. Health care is not a service or a product that favors the rich, it is the right of everybody. But maybe I am naive to think that.

Anyway, I have done it again .. trying to convince a conservative about health care .. silly me ..

BitterCOld
doomtrain

Posts: 11598

Age: 40
From: USA

	27.03.2010 at 00:58
I am all for reform of the health care system, within what is cost-effective and we can afford. it needs to be done in a way that is sustainable. i am not a "teabagger" - and just the fact you used the derogatory colloquialism to describe them shows you are likely predisposed against them. the tea PARTY movement in modern America largely stemmed up from center/center-right citizens who have had enough of the politicians on BOTH sides. they are negatively portrayed in the media in this country because the the media sold out their journalistic integrity and are hitched to the President's wagon. the media is no longer the watchdogs of the public, but rather the 4th column of the government. whether fox or cnn, they do not report the news, the dictate to you how you should feel about it. it's funny how all the anti-war protesters that marched around with widely distributed mass produced signs were deemed "grass roots" (note they disappeared completely once Bush was gone... even with BO sending MORE troops to war)... whereas the teapartiers are viewed with disdain and as 'astroturf' as they disagree with the establishment. for 8 years we heard dissent was the highest form of patriotism. now it's just nutjob lunatics. or at least that is how msnbcnn is instructing people to feel. and lots of people are gobbling it up. __________________________________________________________________ as for health care reform, as i said i am for it. i laid out two simple points that would reduce cost drastically to consumers, health care providers, and companies that provide employee benefits - without draining the economy. at some point in time, we could see how that effects the market and costs. and, provided our President engaged in action that would result in fixing the economy rather than slowly murdering it, we might have more people working - paying more into the system - giving us the money to help those who CANNOT help themselves (as opposed to those who can help themselves and simply opt not to) and just when did you take the time to read the bill? or did you just spew forth those same lefty favorite talking points that have been coming up (and getting shot down) since the bill was signed? i imagine you, like our elected officials, didn't you just regurgitated talking points. because i can tell you listed two of the points that my (hopefully soon to be ex-) Rep cited as why she voted for it - only there are loopholes built in which render them void. you mention the doughnut hole - that's been in place for years, part of Bush's Medicare Part D initiative - and that did not go over swimmingly. i know, i worked for a company that provided discounts to people with holes in their prescription drug coverage. it was a debacle. the seniors were left clueless by new regulations, leaving them irate - and the plan put me (and 70% of my co-workers) out of work. you'd also be aware that the Gov't just fucked over seniors with this plan by caving to pharma and increasing the duration on exclusive patents by five years... and promising that we would not import generics from abroad. so instead of 7 years of paying $1,000/year (or whatever) for some new drug before switching to a cheaper generic, those poor bastards have to pay that $1,000 (or whatever) for 12 years. that's really putting the needs of the people first, eh? (at least that doughnut hole will help them out a little bit... right?) never mind the part about boosting reimbursements to docs who already lose money with medicare - medicare is already in the red before this bill just yanked $500,000,000,000 from it. and the "doc fix" reimbursement, projected at $200,000,000,000 was not actually factored in to the existing "break even" budget for the plan. just out of curiosity, what is the total cost of socialized health care? how much does it REALLY cost the people? let's compare your tax rates versus ours... if it is so good, why do rich canadians/canadian politicians fly to America whenever they need a procedure done? i guess it is not so good when you must wait two years for a procedure... and what good is a health care solution if enacted so horribly as to implode the country's economy by the end of the decade? we fail to see eye to eye and never will. your viewpoints and mine are, and forever will be, different. both in health care and in terms of government.
---- get the fuck off my lawn.

taka

Posts: 960

Age: 31
From: Austria

27.03.2010 at 13:36

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

I am all for reform of the health care system, within what is cost-effective and we can afford. it needs to be done in a way that is sustainable.

we agree here, though I must say that for me cost effective does not exclude universal health care and the public option. I don;t know your views on this. But I certainly don;t agree that the free market will bring costs down for health care.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

i am not a "teabagger" - and just the fact you used the derogatory colloquialism to describe them shows you are likely predisposed against them.
the tea PARTY movement in modern America largely stemmed up from center/center-right citizens who have had enough of the politicians on BOTH sides.

I would rather say that there are the extreme right, the counterpoint to the extreme left. I mean where were they when bush was spending like crazy? All of the sudden these people show up and shout out for fiscal responsibility. I actually think that most are scared by the likes of limgaugh and beck into thinking that america is threatened by obama. The words used most often t such rallies are freedom and socialism. I doubt that any of them actually have an idea about what freedom and socialism mean.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

they are negatively portrayed in the media in this country because the the media sold out their journalistic integrity and are hitched to the President's wagon. the media is no longer the watchdogs of the public, but rather the 4th column of the government. whether fox or cnn, they do not report the news, the dictate to you how you should feel about it.

We agree on this. But from a journalistic viewpoint I think that the new york times still has integrity, I am sure you disagree with me.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

it's funny how all the anti-war protesters that marched around with widely distributed mass produced signs were deemed "grass roots" (note they disappeared completely once Bush was gone... even with BO sending MORE troops to war)... whereas the teapartiers are viewed with disdain and as 'astroturf' as they disagree with the establishment.

I agree that the anti-war protesters should continue, I think they believe obama will stop the wars, unfortunately, war is part of american politics regardless of right or left. But you have to remember that the anti-war protesters were against the ira war which was totally unjustified, not the afganistan war. I doubt that many left-wingers were against going after the taliban after sept 11. That is why I guess they expect obama to end the iraq war and concentrate on the afghanistan war.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

for 8 years we heard dissent was the highest form of patriotism. now it's just nutjob lunatics.

or at least that is how msnbcnn is instructing people to feel.

and lots of people are gobbling it up.

One thing is dissent that is justified, even if it is a matter of opinion and another thing is a skewed ideology that has no roots in reality. And by this I do not mean the people that say the spending has gone too far, but those who think that obama is both communist and fascist, or that usa will turn into a socialis country. And I would argue that most people at those protests are just hiding their ignorance behind keywords like fiscal responsibility.

And here we agree as well . msnbc is the left version of fox news, though a little bit more sane and articulate. I mean compare keith olberman or rachel maddow to sean hannity or beck both in terms of intelligence and how extreme they are. I submit to you that olberman and maddow are firstly not crazy and secondly a lot more informed and intelligent.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

as for health care reform, as i said i am for it. i laid out two simple points that would reduce cost drastically to consumers, health care providers, and companies that provide employee benefits - without draining the economy.

And I said that within the health care context, the free market concept that works very well for other things fails utterly. This is because, like with social security or pensions, companies have to find a way to balance profit and peoples lives. More often than not, they chose profit.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

at some point in time, we could see how that effects the market and costs. and, provided our President engaged in action that would result in fixing the economy rather than slowly murdering it, we might have more people working - paying more into the system - giving us the money to help those who CANNOT help themselves (as opposed to those who can help themselves and simply opt not to)

look at germany and how they handled the recession, such measures are proven to work. But I am not an economist and as far as I read there are theories both for and against such stimulus measures.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

and just when did you take the time to read the bill?

or did you just spew forth those same lefty favorite talking points that have been coming up (and getting shot down) since the bill was signed?

Did I read the whole bill? no. Did you? I have taken information from many sources, I doubt that they were all left wing. Where have I been wrong?

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

you mention the doughnut hole - that's been in place for years, part of Bush's Medicare Part D initiative - and that did not go over swimmingly. i know, i worked for a company that provided discounts to people with holes in their prescription drug coverage. it was a debacle. the seniors were left clueless by new regulations, leaving them irate - and the plan put me (and 70% of my co-workers) out of work.

I did not get your point here.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

you'd also be aware that the Gov't just fucked over seniors with this plan by caving to pharma and increasing the duration on exclusive patents by five years... and promising that we would not import generics from abroad.

I agree with you that pharma has too much influence on policy and lobbyists are the main hurdle in the way pf good reform. But do you think that the republicans are not in the bed with pharma? I also said that I do not agree with the health care plan to a large degree, but what I agree with is that there have to be regulations on how insurance companies treat their clients. Read about the swiss model. As I said, I lived there, I was insured by a private insurer in a free market system. But there were regulations so that I would not be fucked by the company if some mathematical formula tells them that they make more money if I die.

And by the way, my girlfriend just finished her master's thesis in mathematics applied in the secondary market in insurance. You cannot believe the mathematical models that they employ to see wether your death brings them more money than you living. IT's all about probabilities of you dying and getting sick and so forth. After she finished she decided she does not want to have anything more to do with insurance mathematics and refused a phd position in that area ..

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

never mind the part about boosting reimbursements to docs who already lose money with medicare - medicare is already in the red before this bill just yanked $500,000,000,000 from it. and the "doc fix" reimbursement, projected at $200,000,000,000 was not actually factored in to the existing "break even" budget for the plan.

As I said, cost is a problem, but cost is already a problem, even without reform. I said that I do not agree with the full plan, but one step in the right direction is made. Are there more efficient ways that don't cost this much? Sure, but the republican plan or your plan is not the right solution.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

just out of curiosity, what is the total cost of socialized health care?

how much does it REALLY cost the people? let's compare your tax rates versus ours...

As far as I know the taxes I pay are as follows:
Health Insurance: 7,65 %
Accident Insurance: 1,4 %
Pension Insurance: 22,8 %

I looked at my paycheck and last month I payed taxes in total of around 31% so this should be right but I don't know if social security is included. In any case the employer also pays half of the taxes as far as I know.

But I think here is also where our views differ, I don't think about my salary as being the sum before taxation but I view my salary as that after taxation.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

if it is so good, why do rich canadians/canadian politicians fly to America whenever they need a procedure done? i guess it is not so good when you must wait two years for a procedure...

I highly doubt that that is the case, actually there are studies that prove that this is not the case, see for example : http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/17/1/225.pdf

or an easier to read myth debunking : http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

And I actually know how the canadian health care system works as I have canadian relatives. My cousin and uncle are canadians and nobody in my family there has had any problems with long waiting periods or coverage.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 00:58

we fail to see eye to eye and never will.

your viewpoints and mine are, and forever will be, different.

both in health care and in terms of government.

at least we both like the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and metal music

BitterCOld
doomtrain

Posts: 11598

Age: 40
From: USA

	27.03.2010 at 17:15
The fact you think the NYT still has integrity and that the tea party folks are extreme right (not even close, lots of independents and centrist dems have started showing up) shows just how little you get it. no further political debates are going to happen as it's a useless exercise. you simply see things how you wish to from across the pond and in your academic ivory tower. then poke moral holes in any policy with zero regard to actual impact. it's the curse of the career academic. reality is things that look good on paper often don't when the rubber meets the road. the negative of the economic impact will far outweigh any "good" done by this. it's just a matter of time - and conveniently shielded by the design of the bill, that time will come long after the politicians who have passed it are out of office. but at least we can discuss metal and H2G2, as you said.
---- get the fuck off my lawn.

taka

Posts: 960

Age: 31
From: Austria

27.03.2010 at 19:52

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 17:15

The fact you think the NYT still has integrity

in comparison to other media it has .. let's put it like this .. what is in your opinion the media with most integrity?

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 17:15

and that the tea party folks are extreme right (not even close, lots of independents and centrist dems have started showing up) shows just how little you get it.

most are on the extreme right ... maybe in the political spectrum in the us they are not regarded as such but in the european sense, obama is centre/right and the tea-party people are the extreme right.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 17:15

no further political debates are going to happen as it's a useless exercise. you simply see things how you wish to from across the pond and in your academic ivory tower. then poke moral holes in any policy with zero regard to actual impact. it's the curse of the career academic. reality is things that look good on paper often don't when the rubber meets the road.

since we are both pretty involved in politics I don't expect to change your mind and I don't think that you can change mine. Still, sometimes one learns things, and one also gets to check facts in such a discussion, so it is not pointless. For example, you stated that canadians go to the us for health services (a myth often found in right-wing media) and that is demonstrably wrong.

About this academic ivory tower ... I never understood this ... do you think that I am so rich? that I don't experience real life? What makes you think that I am so privileged? It is because I have experienced the real life and suffering of real people that I am so involved in politics. I have lived in a stalinist regime, I have watched my parents struggling to find food for me and my sister, I have experienced the discrimination against my jewish family members during this regime. So I know what real tyranny and state control can do. I have experienced the whole transition from stalinism to capitalism and I also lived in a direct democracy and in a social democratic country. What makes you think I am so detached from real life?

Some basic principles are not specific to a country, and if a government or corporation goes against the most basic principles of humanity, it does not matter that one lives across the pond. Go and live for example in sweden or austria for some years and then tell me that the social and health system there is so bad. How much have you experienced in terms of different social systems? Anyway, I dont want to get too personal here, let me tell you just that your opinion of me is quite wrong

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 17:15

the negative of the economic impact will far outweigh any "good" done by this.

it's just a matter of time - and conveniently shielded by the design of the bill, that time will come long after the politicians who have passed it are out of office.

time will tell. Look, I said it twice already, the bill is not optimal and the spending is definitely a problem but your alternative, or the alternative of the republicans is far worse. Firstly it will not bring down costs and it will destroy many lives. Even if it is proven that policies of the republicans have destroyed the economy, you would still not admit it. And I don't remember you posting anything about the spending of bush, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

But maybe the discussion is pointless, as you have ignored my previous post.

Written by BitterCOld on 27.03.2010 at 17:15

but at least we can discuss metal and H2G2, as you said.

unfortunately, I don't post many things outside the serious discussion threads but I promise that if we ever meet for a beer I will only discuss metal and Douglas Adams

Kap'N Korrupt
Account deleted

28.03.2010 at 08:13

The USA should just do what we do up here...you should all stand to get taxed an additional seven percent...that money goes to things like us having the ability to walk into a hospital and be able to get taken care of...maybe if they increased the overall minimum wage to 10.25/hr (the minimum wage in Canada) then the average income of someone in the USA would increase and as a result you all would probably pay more federal taxes and that could be used to help pay the health care...this way the overall burden wouldn't be on the backs on the average small to medium sized business owner...this way large cooperation such as Wal-Mart would be paying their employees more and they would be able to contribute more tax revenue into the health care plan...

Even if you are forced to pay the $800/month for health care insurance you can just go to State Farm right? And it would be something like $200-300/month instead but with the whole $2000 deductible which will come in handy for you if you have a real problem in the future, my American neighbors...a $150,000 surgery and you only have to pay $2000 out of pocket and the rest is paid for...or am I wrong?

Still...what I said in the first part is something that would work perfectly in the USA...

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