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Heaven



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22.07.2010 - 21:40
Zombie
Thrash'tillDeath
So, Apparently there's no topic about the concept of 'Heaven and Hell", so i thought i'd create one, but i'm more concerned with heaven than hell, coz everyone knows what hell is all about, torture, pain, death, anguish, fire, demons, and absolute misery. but, what about heaven?

do we know what heaven looks like?

do we even have a basic idea?

is heaven all about 'not going to hell' ? as this surely seems to be the driving force to almost every god-fearing religious person.

have we really stopped and thought about heaven and 'life in heaven' ?

would you get bored after a while having absolutely no purpose in 'afterlife' except to enjoy the pleasures?

of course not everybody believes in heaven, or even god.. but, for the believers share your thoughts about what heaven might be like, what would one expect, and is it really that awesome ? or is it just way better than hell ? is 'this life', life on earth as good as heaven? .. are there 'pieces of heaven' on earth.. hope everyone shares their views on the topic.

and i'll start with myself;

Many interpretations of heaven are shared by believers in god, and the 'official' heaven description varies from one religion to another, but only in the details, most of them have the overall same broad concept; i'll list quickly the 'variations' of heaven according to different religions (and this might not be totally accurate as ALL of these are my friend's opinions about the matter and what each one told me, as i personally don't have a specific view yet)

My Catholic Christian friends believe heaven is a kingdom in the sky, where you live side by side with god; weather this is on clouds or on another planet /dimension .. they're not absolutely sure.. but its a place where all the 'good' people who obeyed god go and it is filled with delights, and pleasures beyond any imagination. (and This is probably the most common view shared by most religious people in the world, and it is the kind of heaven portrayed in movies, comics, and cartoons)

My Orthodox Christian friends believe that heaven is the place where 'good' people go and they are rewarded by being turned into angels who pray for god non-stop till eternity, and god makes them actually enjoy this feeling of obedience. (mmm weird, but ok... i respect how these guys think.. coz according to the strict orthodox standards, probably no one would go to heaven except priests and people who fully dedicate their lives for god and enjoy prayers more than anything else)

My Muslim friends believe that heaven is vast gardens, green with all kinds of trees, and it has rivers of honey and milk, and golden castles, and you are granted everything you could possibly desire, and you get to marry beautiful virgins, and eat all kinds of fruits. (you can clearly see the Muslim heaven is everything 'Arabia' isn't, they live in dry deserts, and heaven according to Islam is green gardens and rivers, just a though...)

My Buddhist friend (who i seriously doubt that he's really Buddhist ) believes that heaven isn't a place, but it is your reincarnation in the following life into something better than what you were in your past life..

While Heaven in Ancient Egyptian Religion was not a place out of this earth, it was after 'doomsday' all the good people would be resurrected and live once again on this earth, a life without 'bad' people, wild beasts, or darkness.. and that is why they preserved their dead bodies by mummification, and built tombs equipped with anti-theft traps for their kings and high priests as their bodies would be 'awakened' again one day and it has to stay intact and in perfect condition.

In Ancient Greek religion, 'good' people were granted a permission to live on the garden outskirts of the kingdom of heaven on mount Olympus, where the gods live.

and last that i know of but not least, is heaven in the Nordic 'Viking' religion, where it is the great hall of Valhalla that shelters all the great warriors from the winter coldness, and provides a perfect 'arena' for 1-on-1 battles between those great warriors till eternity. (probably the 'coolest' Heaven of all !)

so, share your thoughts.. and maybe this thread would make it to the 'serious discussions' forum.
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Johann Wolfgang van Goethe 1749-1832
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22.07.2010 - 22:19
ErnilEnNaur
Account deleted
According to the Bible, heaven is the spiritual realm, where God and angels live. Since God can't be material, neither can heaven, so it is not a place. Place implies the existence of space and there is no "space" in the immaterial world. As for what it's like, it is very hard to describe. The only real way of describing heaven is by using negatives - it's not material, it's not a place, it is not bodily, it is not corporeal.
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22.07.2010 - 23:14
Ernis
狼獾
Written by Zombie on 22.07.2010 at 21:40

do we know what heaven looks like?

do we even have a basic idea?

We have not... as God is outside time and space, the system we live in, we, as we are in here, cannot grasp what's out there... One cannot handle things outside a system according to the principles that are inside a system. ErnilEnNaur also gave a good explanation. It's not a place, it's not corporeal, we cannot describe it according to our own conceptions of time and space.

I think it was a Jewish tradition where a woman had to marry her husband's brother if the man died... and then another brother if the husband's one brother died etc...
I think they asked Jesus "Hey, let's imagine a woman is married to all the brothers of a family during her lifetime. If she finally dies too, which brother can actually have sex with her in heaven?"

Can you give me an answer?

Use the logic... since a soul is free of all corporeal aspects in heaven... since we all are bodiless, we all might be as one, we all might live friendly in spiritual love and something positive that we here cannot describe with our words... then there is actually NO NEED for us to think bout eating/having sex/drinking etc...

I know... now many people are so disappointed and say: "NO SEX IN HEAVEN? NO 77 VIRGINS? WHAT HEAVEN IS THIS?"
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22.07.2010 - 23:37
Zombie
Thrash'tillDeath
Written by Ernis on 22.07.2010 at 23:14

...
I know... now many people are so disappointed and say: "NO SEX IN HEAVEN? NO 77 VIRGINS? WHAT HEAVEN IS THIS?"


LOL yeah man, you explained well, but some points still remain unclear, including the 'motivation' to go to heaven ... so, if heaven is unknown, and indescribable, and so on.. why would i aspire to go to heaven? ... what tells me that i WANT to go there... if i dont have at least a basic idea of what it is, why would i be motivated to go there? just to avoid being thrown in hell and being tortured? .. that isn't really fair; its like you go through a test, and if u fail, u r punished .. and if you succeed, you dont get rewarded, but u dont get punished

of course the 70 virgins and the other earthly delights might be misleading as you can have those on earth, no need to die and get it in heaven .. and it is clearly made up as to get people excited and motivated to do good so they'd be rewarded .. but, you're telling me that the prize is 'unknown' .. or .. there might not even be a prize afterall ? .. i dunno man.. this is very demotivating.
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Johann Wolfgang van Goethe 1749-1832
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23.07.2010 - 00:28
Ernis
狼獾
Written by Zombie on 22.07.2010 at 23:37

but, you're telling me that the prize is 'unknown' .. or .. there might not even be a prize afterall ? .. i dunno man.. this is very demotivating.

Be a good person and try to become perfect (you never will but the process of becoming closer to the one who is perfect is worth it innit?)...
Be nice and kind and live in the name of ideals... isn't that already worth it...

It's like doing good for the wonderful feeling of doing good compared to doing good just because one wishes some reward or prize... there's the difference...

Imagine: I have kids, I raise them, feed them and then look gladly as they go their ways and become strong and happy and good people themselves... that's what I wish. Now compare this to the other scenario... I have kids, I raise them, feed them and when they grow up then I start reminding them "YOU KNOW IF I HAD USED A CONDOM YOU WOULDNT BE HERE! YOU OWE ME LOTS OF THINGS! I FED YOU I DRESSED YOU I ACCOMMODATED YOU! NOW IT'S PAYBACK TIME. GO TO UNIVERSITY, GET A JOB AND BUY ME A LUXURY HOUSE!"

This is not how things should be...
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23.07.2010 - 00:37
Zombie
Thrash'tillDeath
This is what i'm doing right now, i'm being good for the sake of 'being good' and for the wonderful feeling i get after doing good deeds.. and i'm not expecting a reward for that, either in this life or the next one.

its just that i dislike it when clergymen use 'mental terrorism' by saying everyone's doomed and describing the horrors of hell so you'd do what you can to escape hell and go to heaven.. while noone actually knows if heaven is gonna be even good or not.. might be boring there .. no one knows... but it surely is better than hell.. so, that's my point. the 'reward-and-punishment' system only works if there's both, reward, AND punishments... not just punishments and 'exemption from punishment' ..

anyways, its interesting to hear people's interpretation of heaven .. keep those comments coming !

Btw, if you happen to know how is heaven portrayed in Judaism please mention it, as i have no clue about that one.
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Johann Wolfgang van Goethe 1749-1832
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23.07.2010 - 00:54
Ernis
狼獾
Written by Zombie on 23.07.2010 at 00:37

This is what i'm doing right now, i'm being good for the sake of 'being good' and for the wonderful feeling i get after doing good deeds.. and i'm not expecting a reward for that, either in this life or the next one.

That's what it's all about!

Speaking of hell... nobody can tell what hell really might be... but I think one form of it is loneliness... knowing that you are away from all those whom you'd love, away from light and Father... being yourself... locked in being you in the dark and without the light and love of being in one with Father and all others...

Hell could also be... repetition... If you go one thing that hurts and scares you all over again in an endless cycle. There was a story of a man who apparently caused the death of his stepchild or similar. He did not accept nor love the child his wife had with her previous husband. And in hell this man lived through one thing... a child with face blown out (with a shotgun) approaching him endlessly and he avoiding the child in disgust. It lasted an eternity until he finally realised and he embraced the child... and then he was free since he admitted what he had all the time done wrong.

One more thing bout heaven... sometimes... when with a close friend or some other close people... you do not need anything... no particular activity, no words, no beer no anything... and you just are there and these moments are so dear and precious you do not need anything at all. That's one concept of heaven. Think outside body...
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25.07.2010 - 22:52
Kap'N Korrupt
Account deleted
Heaven looks like dirt and worms...the inside of a coffin...the emptiness of space as your ashes float around...the inside of a room as you are murdered...the eternal asphalt as you lie dead from the accident...

The basic idea is the eternal surrounding of where you lie when you die...the lights go out and then nobody is home anymore...in my humble opinion, people who say that they have died and saw a great bright light and all that other shit is just that: PURE SHIT...want the media to pay you attention for your 15 seconds of fame? Just tell them that you died and make up some shit about heaven or hell...

Don't stop and think about heaven and hell...life the fuck out of your life...fuck rules, fuck society, fuck everyone and then die...your eternal resting place is forever darkness...

Nobody gets bored after death if there is nothing after death...
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26.07.2010 - 01:34
Zombie
Thrash'tillDeath
Written by Guest on 25.07.2010 at 22:52

Heaven looks like dirt and worms...the inside of a coffin...the emptiness of space as your ashes float around...the inside of a room as you are murdered...the eternal asphalt as you lie dead from the accident...

The basic idea is the eternal surrounding of where you lie when you die...the lights go out and then nobody is home anymore...in my humble opinion, people who say that they have died and saw a great bright light and all that other shit is just that: PURE SHIT...want the media to pay you attention for your 15 seconds of fame? Just tell them that you died and make up some shit about heaven or hell...

Don't stop and think about heaven and hell...life the fuck out of your life...fuck rules, fuck society, fuck everyone and then die...your eternal resting place is forever darkness...

Nobody gets bored after death if there is nothing after death...


What if your body is preserved by freezing and then hundreds of years after technology allows you to have your vital organs 'revived' through stem cells or other shit, maybe neno-tech... and then you're revived ... far fetched but still, would count as an "afterlife" ... so, you'd better do it the Egyptian way and preserve your body for the next life

PS: you DO realize i'm messing with ya, for the love of god dont actually reply seriously to what i just said !
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Johann Wolfgang van Goethe 1749-1832
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26.07.2010 - 03:42
Kap'N Korrupt
Account deleted
Written by Zombie on 26.07.2010 at 01:34

Written by Guest on 25.07.2010 at 22:52

Heaven looks like dirt and worms...the inside of a coffin...the emptiness of space as your ashes float around...the inside of a room as you are murdered...the eternal asphalt as you lie dead from the accident...

The basic idea is the eternal surrounding of where you lie when you die...the lights go out and then nobody is home anymore...in my humble opinion, people who say that they have died and saw a great bright light and all that other shit is just that: PURE SHIT...want the media to pay you attention for your 15 seconds of fame? Just tell them that you died and make up some shit about heaven or hell...

Don't stop and think about heaven and hell...life the fuck out of your life...fuck rules, fuck society, fuck everyone and then die...your eternal resting place is forever darkness...

Nobody gets bored after death if there is nothing after death...


What if your body is preserved by freezing and then hundreds of years after technology allows you to have your vital organs 'revived' through stem cells or other shit, maybe neno-tech... and then you're revived ... far fetched but still, would count as an "afterlife" ... so, you'd better do it the Egyptian way and preserve your body for the next life

PS: you DO realize i'm messing with ya, for the love of god dont actually reply seriously to what i just said !

Too bad because I'm going to respond seriously anyway

That's actually the only idea of an afterlife I believe in...cryogenic...so you brought up a good point about afterlife anyway...your body gets frozen probably as you are in the state of dying or just about to die...and then you get to have an "afterlife" which would technically be a life after the one you had years later after they finally have a cure for you...
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26.07.2010 - 03:44
Kap'N Korrupt
Account deleted
Written by Guest on 26.07.2010 at 03:42

Written by Zombie on 26.07.2010 at 01:34

Written by Guest on 25.07.2010 at 22:52

Heaven looks like dirt and worms...the inside of a coffin...the emptiness of space as your ashes float around...the inside of a room as you are murdered...the eternal asphalt as you lie dead from the accident...

The basic idea is the eternal surrounding of where you lie when you die...the lights go out and then nobody is home anymore...in my humble opinion, people who say that they have died and saw a great bright light and all that other shit is just that: PURE SHIT...want the media to pay you attention for your 15 seconds of fame? Just tell them that you died and make up some shit about heaven or hell...

Don't stop and think about heaven and hell...life the fuck out of your life...fuck rules, fuck society, fuck everyone and then die...your eternal resting place is forever darkness...

Nobody gets bored after death if there is nothing after death...


What if your body is preserved by freezing and then hundreds of years after technology allows you to have your vital organs 'revived' through stem cells or other shit, maybe neno-tech... and then you're revived ... far fetched but still, would count as an "afterlife" ... so, you'd better do it the Egyptian way and preserve your body for the next life

PS: you DO realize i'm messing with ya, for the love of god dont actually reply seriously to what i just said !

Too bad because I'm going to respond seriously anyway

That's actually the only idea of an afterlife I believe in...cryogenic...so you brought up a good point about afterlife anyway...your body gets frozen probably as you are in the state of dying or just about to die...and then you get to have an "afterlife" which would technically be a life after the one you had years later after they finally have a cure for you...I don't see how that was messing with me as it was a 100% intelligent response to my post...the idea of stem cells reviving organs at the last minute as someone is unfrozen and about to die is pretty ingenious...
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26.07.2010 - 06:30
Angelic Storm
Melodious
Written by Ernis on 23.07.2010 at 00:54
Speaking of hell... nobody can tell what hell really might be...


Hell is on earth. Examples: People that are starving to death in very poor countries, animals who are kept in horrendous conditions and then skinned alive for their fur, etc... many living beings on this planet are already in hell. You do not have to die to go there. Unless you die, and then become reincarnated into a life in hell like the examples I just described.
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26.07.2010 - 12:15
Kennoth

Written by Guest on 25.07.2010 at 22:52

Heaven looks like dirt and worms...the inside of a coffin...the emptiness of space as your ashes float around...the inside of a room as you are murdered...the eternal asphalt as you lie dead from the accident...

The basic idea is the eternal surrounding of where you lie when you die...the lights go out and then nobody is home anymore...in my humble opinion, people who say that they have died and saw a great bright light and all that other shit is just that: PURE SHIT...want the media to pay you attention for your 15 seconds of fame? Just tell them that you died and make up some shit about heaven or hell...

Don't stop and think about heaven and hell...life the fuck out of your life...fuck rules, fuck society, fuck everyone and then die...your eternal resting place is forever darkness...

Nobody gets bored after death if there is nothing after death...


My thoughts exactly. The whole concept of afterlife is designed to give people comfort and hope that there is something they can look forward to after death; which is kinda naive in my opinion.

My stance on this is simple: you die, you rot. There is nothing waiting you out there, while this may be sad a bit, it's a brutal, cold truth. No point in deluding ourselves.
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*insert something deep and profound*
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26.07.2010 - 12:28
ErnilEnNaur
Account deleted
Written by Angelic Storm on 26.07.2010 at 06:30

Hell is on earth. Examples: People that are starving to death in very poor countries, animals who are kept in horrendous conditions and then skinned alive for their fur, etc... many living beings on this planet are already in hell. You do not have to die to go there. Unless you die, and then become reincarnated into a life in hell like the examples I just described.


Agreed. Hell exists and mankind is in it.
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27.07.2010 - 06:23
Kap'N Korrupt
Account deleted
Hell is indeed the earth...could you imagine living on earth for an eternity? No thank you...I would rather rot...I would rather rot than stick around to see what humanity will do to itself...
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28.07.2010 - 03:04
Zombie
Thrash'tillDeath
Written by Guest on 27.07.2010 at 06:23

Hell is indeed the earth...could you imagine living on earth for an eternity? No thank you...I would rather rot...I would rather rot than stick around to see what humanity will do to itself...


infact it would be pretty interesting to see the devolution of mankind back into apes, a large portion of humanity already went there !
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Johann Wolfgang van Goethe 1749-1832
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31.07.2010 - 13:25
Hamird
Lieutenant
I don't where and by who this heaven and hell started.. But it was the biggest form of manipulation in all human history.

I never can accept what religion says about religion, specially my own ex-religion. In fact according to Islam, slaves of God go to heaven and those who wanted freedom of individuals go to hell. Well there are stories that God fired Satan from heaven because Satan didn't want to act like slaves. What heaven is this? I don't expect to have sex and 77 angles or anything. Unless you are a slave it's not heaven... I mean people in hell might be under torment, but at least they have in their mind that they've done what they'd liked to do...

But in the other hand I never understood the people who do good for going to heaven and stop doing bad not to go hell. They're are bunch of cowards aren't they? Another word for being slave. If you're good for going to heaven better not to be such a piece of shit..

After all, I don't believe in heaven and hell at all. I see mankind destroy after he dies and that's it. Heaven and hell are stories for people who are born to believe...
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31.07.2010 - 14:07
ForeverDarkWoods

Written by Hamird on 31.07.2010 at 13:25

After all, I don't believe in heaven and hell at all. I see mankind destroy after he dies and that's it. Heaven and hell are stories for people who are born to believe...

I do not believe in a heaven, but I know that hell is a very real place, and that it is something that a bunch of people have to deal with everyday. Being from Iran, you would probably understand what I mean.

Heaven is a fairytale told so that those who live in Hell accept their situation.
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Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction!
- George W. Bush, ex-president of the United States of America
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31.07.2010 - 15:14
Hamird
Lieutenant
Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 31.07.2010 at 14:07

Written by Hamird on 31.07.2010 at 13:25

After all, I don't believe in heaven and hell at all. I see mankind destroy after he dies and that's it. Heaven and hell are stories for people who are born to believe...

I do not believe in a heaven, but I know that hell is a very real place, and that it is something that a bunch of people have to deal with everyday. Being from Iran, you would probably understand what I mean.

Heaven is a fairytale told so that those who live in Hell accept their situation.


Of course I know, since we are at the very bottom of this hell that you're talking about.

I think in the first place heaven was a dream for those who were disappointed from their earthly lives, but then it became a motivation for people to devote their real life for a false dream.
You see that the Muslim bomber, is brainwashed by religion and thinks if he do this, in the other world he goes to heaven because he's martyr. Then with this imagination he takes hundreds innocent lives...
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31.07.2010 - 15:24
ForeverDarkWoods

Written by Hamird on 31.07.2010 at 15:14

Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 31.07.2010 at 14:07

Written by Hamird on 31.07.2010 at 13:25

After all, I don't believe in heaven and hell at all. I see mankind destroy after he dies and that's it. Heaven and hell are stories for people who are born to believe...

I do not believe in a heaven, but I know that hell is a very real place, and that it is something that a bunch of people have to deal with everyday. Being from Iran, you would probably understand what I mean.

Heaven is a fairytale told so that those who live in Hell accept their situation.


Of course I know, since we are at the very bottom of this hell that you're talking about.

I think in the first place heaven was a dream for those who were disappointed from their earthly lives, but then it became a motivation for people to devote their real life for a false dream.
You see that the Muslim bomber, is brainwashed by religion and thinks if he do this, in the other world he goes to heaven because he's martyr. Then with this imagination he takes hundreds innocent lives...

Yes, the bomber serves the masters who tell him these lies like a good slave. Instead of rising up against those responsible, the masses will die for their masters. It is a way to make the masses accept this place in hell, and to mould them into good slaves. All to benefit the ruling class...

That is religion's purpose. It exists to reinforce the system of government and further the interests of the ruling class. Such is the same here with christianity, but the system that it tries to reinforce is a lot more tolerable.
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Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction!
- George W. Bush, ex-president of the United States of America
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01.08.2010 - 03:27
Kennoth

Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 31.07.2010 at 15:24

That is religion's purpose. It exists to reinforce the system of government and further the interests of the ruling class. Such is the same here with christianity, but the system that it tries to reinforce is a lot more tolerable.


Religion is an important tool for binding masses of people to your will and ideals. Hopefully as humanity's self awareness continues to rise, it will play increasingly smaller part in our society.
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*insert something deep and profound*
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01.08.2010 - 22:39
Kap'N Korrupt
Account deleted
That's a pipe dream, Kennoth...no matter how much the self awareness of humanity increases over time, there will still remain the whole Kantian following the heard because you aren't able to think for yourself...ignorance is something that will always be, no matter what...and that will forever continue to hold humanity back because they will always be the majority...
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02.03.2016 - 20:01
Enteroctopus

The idea of Multiverse Theory is becoming more widely accepted, so if you believe there are other "universes" or "cosmos" with different physics then certainly anything may be possible. But why would we go to those alternative universes, and why would that have anything to do with dying?

Scientifically it seems highly improbable, something on the level of a planet existing somewhere that perfectly resembles a 12 oz can of Coca-Cola down to the ingredients and pop-top and everything. Why not? And if the universe is infinite it follows that such an object must exist somewhere, and infinite numbers of them as well.

States of consciousness and experiences of living do vary considerably, however, and I don't think we have to conjecture about alternative universes to imagine a place and a time where something like a "heaven" might exist, say some type of monastery in the hills of Tibet where such traits as compassion and joy are purposefully exercised, actively reinforced as a part of daily activities. Similar places exist here now.

"Heavens" and "Hells" then exist practically anywhere we find life, so Venus is a poor candidate despite the fact that it fits the Hell bill quite well, except for being totally sterile. Venus can't be a Hell for anyone if no one can live there.

Starving to death on the same idyllic hill of Tibet two kilometers from the fictional monastery is Hell.

I would argue that reaching what some would describe as a "Heaven" type state is certainly possible, but first the most basic elements of survival must be met: food, water, etc. Then one would need a sense of social belonging extending outward from a healthy family unit with multiple generations existing peacefully.

At any point something external can interfere, like cancer, or something internal can emerge, like jealousy over your sibling's ability to have children when you don't, and you don't quite make it to the highest conscious state.

Religion, or spirituality, is on some level an attempt to control these factors, but of course this is a massively complex picture. In this sense the Christian philosophers are correct that, (paraphrasing) 'one cannot get to heaven by works.' This is true, but probably not for the reasons a Christian philosopher would cite. You can't get to Heaven because it's too damn hard, or put another way you'd get just about there and all of a sudden you'd see your neighbor's wife in a cute outfit and WHAM!!

I don't believe in original sin therefore I do not believe there is any need for salvation therefore I reject Christianity's most basic principle. Logically, though, it does have some merit at least philosophically. One cannot simply meditate in the woods and achieve of "perfect" consciousness.

How do we do it? If we can do it?

Simply inching our way away from chaos and towards enlightenment a generation at a time. We are better off than the people in the Dark Ages. Are we better off than the 1950's? It's hard to say, but we are certainly better off than the 1850's, the 1750's..

Despite some slips backwards from time to time life is getting better, longer, and people are becoming smarter and more aware of everything and each other, and themselves. It just won't happen overnight, and no, some "savior" is not going to magically show up and make it happen one happy day after a big war or something. That's stupid.

We exist in different states as individuals and we simply have to deal with others who are (for the most part) in a lower state than ourselves, often because of poverty. We are quite lucky to live in Modern or "Westernized" societies to even have the Internet at all, or a toilet to shit in. And as enlightened as we might be we have neighbors who vote for Donald Trump, or who think Vladimir Putin is pretty great (same thing in my opinion - the appeal of the asshole bully).

Long post, sorry.
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08.03.2016 - 23:50
FOOCK Nam

I heard Einstein is agnostic, remember there is something the otherside of black hole, n human yet not known what it is exactly.
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13.03.2016 - 21:57
Karlabos
Meat and Potatos
OP sure touches an interesting topic on the sentence is heaven all about 'not going to hell' ? As someone raised in Christian culture I can say it's totally the primal motivation when it comes to afterlife
It's funny how people can have the most horrifying, abysmal thoughts about what happens when you go to the wrong side of the afterlife. Hell has been portraited so many times in so many ways by different cultures, yet nobody can describe heaven per se. There are some "divine revelation" books on Christian stores, (there must be something similar concerning other religions as well, i'm just not very aware of it) stating the author was taken to see a piece of hell and some times also a piece of heaven, be it during a near-death experience or throught a dream or whatever. The motive varies with the one who writes it.

And the behaviour is the same: A say 100 page book has about 90 dedicated to picture the worst of hell, like incentivating people not to make suh place as their primary choice for the afterlife, but when it comes to describe heaven they say all the sae things: "golden streets, beautiful scenario, angels, etc" Well, I don't think "a beautiful scenario should be a very good motivation for people to choose such a hard path during their life, since nature beauty is something you can appretiate a limited amount of times, and after that it becomes regular, you just get used to it. The "grace of god" is also a good escape, because since the crace itself is an unexplaineable feeling you don't need to worry about describing it very much. The word undescribabe is also very used in this kind of stuff... I'm not saying the books are wrong and the author is just making this up, since there may be peoplw who believe in it, but if some of such related experiences are true, then heaven must be indeed undescribable since everyone uses that word for portraiting it...

Thing is: I observed that it's not only when describing afterlife options that humans can have such a formidable imagination for the worse while not much to add for the best... It also happens on everyday scenario as well. The phrase "everything could be worse" is seldom wrong, people can always imagine the most putrid side of things, for instance answer this: What could possibly be the worst way to kill someone? I'm sure you an spend a whole night imagining horrible torture methods which would leave to an individual's death. I once thought about the slowest deathe ver: having a person tied up, looking forward, with the end of a sewer cane on his mouth, so when people would flush, the dejects would meet the person's mouth. He wouldn't die from dehidratation or starving but rather lack of nutrients. Plus he'd be forced to eat crap for the rest of his life...

Anyway... When it comes to answer something simple as "what is your dream, what would make you happy for this life?" I think most people would answer something money related/ having someone to love/mate and it doesn't leave much from it... Both those things can also be found on the actual life as well...
It seems people are not as creative when it comes to picturing something better than what's already there. I wonder why? Perhaps it's because what's out there is already so good there couldn't be anything better than it? Like... I noticed most problems people have (poverty, love/social issues, etc) are caused by the way society is established, problems which wouldn't exists if human society wouldn't exist on the first place! Humans although the most developed creatures in the world seem to be the only species who haven't found their place yet. You barely see monkeys trying to explore the depths of the oceans or elephants trying to climb a mountain. But the human is never satisfied somehow...

My point is: Perhaps heaven is already here, but we just don't realize it and keep hoping for something better? Perhaps these years here given to us should be used for desfrutation but we are wasting all of it trying to blend in? And that's why nobody can describe exactly what heaven is like?
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"Aah! The cat turned into a cat!"
- Reimu Hakurei
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13.03.2016 - 22:21
Bad English
Tage Westerlund
Written by FOOCK Nam on 08.03.2016 at 23:50

I heard Einstein is agnostic, remember there is something the otherside of black hole, n human yet not known what it is exactly.


Heaven and Sky is not same , Heaven is more spiritually as heaveny and hell afterlife, not sky, cosmos, space
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Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''
apos;'
[image]
I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
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14.03.2016 - 12:12
IronAngel

I don't think the fear of hell is a very prominent motivation in much Christian literature or with the religious people I've spoken with. I don't know what books spend 90% describing Hell - even the most famous, Dante, only uses 1/3 of his work and the final part about Paradise is largely regarded the most sophisticated (even if it's less titillating to the popular imagination). In my research, I work primarily on 14th-century manuals devoted to describing the love of God and Christian perfection in this world and the next, and the way to get there. These are medieval treatises of the most obscure mysticism and rigorous life, and their references to damnation (hell and heaven are not very common concepts at all) are pretty conventional and unemphatic. If fear of hell was such a key motive of Christian practice, you'd expect to find it in books like this.

Most modern theologians, I believe, consider Hell to be separation from God and not some concrete, additional torment. From such a point of view, it is not a punishment in itself at all, only miserable because the alternative - communion of angels and saints basking in union with God's love - is so desirable.

I know the notion that Christianity sees Hell as some terrible torture of fire and brimstone and fear of it is the primary motivation for faith is very popular, but I don't think it's very accurate. I don't know what the "average" Christian thinks, I mainly associate with very learned ones, but I would be surprised if Hell was very relevant to their world-view. Maybe in some primitive cultures (like the US!), I dunno. We've all read in the paper about some obnoxious redneck Christian, sure, but I've never in life met a Christian who mentioned Hell as an important part of their religiosity.
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18.05.2016 - 21:14
Enteroctopus

Heaven attempts to make the whole matter of aging and dying less painful. Heaven attempts several things at once, and it's an amalgam of stories and myths from different cultures over thousands of years, which makes it difficult to pin down exactly what purposes it serves. Most importantly, though:

1) Alleviates psychological trauma related to death of a loved one by rationalizing that they are, "somewhere else," and, "we will meet again some day." Your grandmother is in a peaceful place where there is never any rain or storms, every day is beautiful and bunny rabbits prance around from flower to flower. Pleasant thoughts, and death of a loved one is one of the most difficult things we face. It makes sense that we would build complex myths, even whole mythological worlds around this process.

2) Answers the inevitable question, "What happens when we die?"

Parents will undoubtedly face this question, especially once the child encounters death, like death of a grandparent. Which came first, the story we tell ourselves when we think about death, or the story parents tell their children?

I would argue that we probably generated afterlife myths surrounding death of others first because we will encounter this long before dealing with our own demise, or even realizing its inevitability. Aging and death are merely, "some strange thing that will happen far, far off in the future," when we are children. The elderly are odd, rather unpleasant creatures who have scary things around them, odd apparatuses like oxygen tanks and dozens of pill bottles. They may as well be trolls or leprechauns when we are three or four, or even ten years old. When Grandma dies it is a shocking thing, one day she is there and the next the grownups are using strange words like, "triple bypass." By 17 we clearly understand.. that's us in the not so distant future!

Now on to the secondary purpose(s) of Heaven: Political, economic, interpersonal (I mentioned parenting), behavior modification, etc.

Some have suggested that "they" lie to us about Heaven, spinning this cosmic wives tale to keep us in line, force us into slavery, which might be better described as the lower class. See, the Middle Class is a fairly recent development, and for most of human history we've had two: upper and lower. As the thread starter mentioned, the upper classes have their own ideas about the afterlife, and they sometimes revolve around resurrection (or medically reviving) a preserved body to return to Earth at a later date. How very different are the Pharaohs from those wealthy enough to afford cryogenics? If you are in the Upper Class then life is good, why reach for some paradise in the cosmos when life on Earth is so rich and fulfilling?

Thus ideas about Heaven, and how myths and rituals surrounding the afterlife function for the individual differ based on class. If you're rich then you want to go on living just as you are: rich and powerful, on into forever. If you're poor then you want some magical transformation, transportation to a faraway land where you are not poor, you are not sick, weary, and downtrodden. How very convenient for those looking to control the masses, or even their own children. How different is the story of the American Santa Claus who brings toys to all the good children from the Christian story of Jesus who transports all who are Saved (basically the good little girls and boys) to Heaven to be with God. Same basic idea: behave yourself and you will reap a reward.

There's a very simple name for that type of process, it's Operant Conditioning. The idea of OC is you coax a dog (or a seal or a lion or an elephant, or a human) to stand on one foot or balance a ball on its nose, then you feed it. You combine this with a sound, often a bell or "click." Think about Communion - you go to Church and worship God, then you receive some morsel of food, then you hear a bell. Soon the sound of the bell is enough, and the behavior is produced without need for food - the bell becomes the reward. Eventually the behavior is produced without need for any stimulus whatever, as they say, "To serve God is itself a reward."

Sounds like a dog sitting to me. Or perhaps I'm wrong. No, religion is not so very simple as training a dog, but there are similarities to be sure, common threads that are used by the priesthood and animal trainers alike. Life is scary, we are surrounded with death and suffering at every moment. We like a morsel or goodie of reassurance that it will all be okay, that it's no matter about death because we will all go to Heaven in the end. Ah, and so we are reassured.

What appears to be a well-organized system is really not as diligently engineered as one might believe, however. The power of religion to control arises somewhat by accident, and those in positions of priestly power discover, rather by accident, that this is kind of fun! One can benefit quite handily from serving the spiritual needs of the masses. Of course stumbling into something that works leads one to seek to make the process more efficient, and so here is where design enters the equation - we bishops and cardinals are doing quite well, but how much better off could we be if we suggest that birth control and homosexuality are sinful?

Bah! Nonsense, you say. Well, what do birth control and homosexuality have in common? They reduce the birth rate associated with sexual behavior. People are going to fuck, so we can't have them fucking people of the same sex, or preventing transmission of semen to the vagina if they are doing it the "proper" and "natural" way! Certainly not. So we suggest that doing such things "angers God," and we shun those who behave otherwise, and the result?

More children. More kids = more faithful, and that means more money and more power. Quite a clever design, indeed. That's not designed from the bottom up, however. The thing just emerged out of human cultural evolution, happened to create a powerful class of specialized humans who then realized they could have fun with the thing and supercharge the motherfucker!!

We humans like to do things like that, don't we?

Mass conspiracy? No. Supercharged motherfucker of an emergent cultural phenomenon? Yes.
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02.07.2022 - 22:13
Joppe
Steelemeister
Too lazy to read all these long ass comments, maybe it was already pointed out already, at least Karlabos wrote it that the heaven might already be here, and I have this same understanding, I don't think it's about afterlife at all;

“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Now, who says that the kingdom of heaven is the afterlife and not THISlife? What is to be like children? Rather try to figure that out than what happens after dying
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My vision is augmented
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