What is the big deal with satanism? Is it the violence associated with it? Because if it is, bloodshed is in every religion. Look at every war in the history of ver and you cant say religion had no part in it. Is it the rituals? They may be disturbing, but so is re-enacting crucifixion.
Really, if you read the bible, satan wasn't so much evil as rebellious. Everyone views him as the bad guy, when in reality, god is more like darth vader with satan and his demons being the rebel forces. I mean god killed someone over a fucking apple!
Satanism is another perfectly legitimate religion. It is another interpretation of an already laid groundwork. Like all religions, its extremists are brought to the fore, and I am highly against using religion of any sort to use violence, or other things.
So what is the big deal?

Written by whatsacow on 23.10.2010 at 04:54

Really, if you read the bible, satan wasn't so much evil as rebellious.

If you read scripture, he was both.

Quote:

Everyone views him as the bad guy, when in reality, god is more like darth vader with satan and his demons being the rebel forces. I mean god killed someone over a fucking apple!

That's not what the scripture says. Adam and Eve weren't killed, God simply stopped acting to preserve them in existence and they eventually died.

Quote:

Satanism is another perfectly legitimate religion.

Satanism is for kids.

Quote:

So what is the big deal?

There is no big deal, it's for kids.

Written by Guest on 26.10.2010 at 05:03

That's not what the scripture says. Adam and Eve weren't killed, God simply stopped acting to preserve them in existence and they eventually died.

But he did strike a man and woman dead for lying to Peter about money from a land sale. And that's New Testament, so no hiding behind, "He stopped doing that stuff after Jesus came..."

To say Satanism is for kids (and I'm not a Satanist) shows a complete lack of understanding on your part of what modern Satanism entails, both the theistic and symbolic branches. It is no more for kids than any other belief system.

Theistic Satanists tend to be maltheists generally. The god that is depicted in the Bible is cruel and capricious, admittedly jealous and demonstrably heavy handed with punishment. Even Jesus cursed and destroyed a fig tree - for the offense of not bearing fruit out of season. Their position is that the god of the Bible is an evil being seeking to keep humanity under his tyranny. Satan is seen as the liberator, Lucifer living up to his name as "Lightbearer" - the one who brings the light of knowledge to humanity to enable them to recognize the Biblical for the sham that he is. In this respect, there are many parallels with gnosticism. It's not about being evil; it is a viable belief system with a particular viewpoint that is opposed to the current majority beliefs.

Go read some of Diane Vera's writings and educate yourself at least a little on the subject before espousing banalities.

Written by Derwood on 26.10.2010 at 05:38

But he did strike a man and woman dead for lying to Peter about money from a land sale. And that's New Testament, so no hiding behind, "He stopped doing that stuff after Jesus came..."

I wasn't hiding behind Jesus nor was I being an apologist, I simply offered clarification. "Killed people over an apple" is a mischaracterization of the actual story. There's even no mention of what type of fruit it was.

Quote:

To say Satanism is for kids (and I'm not a Satanist) shows a complete lack of understanding on your part of what modern Satanism entails, both the theistic and symbolic branches. It is no more for kids than any other belief system.

Here you might have a point.

Quote:

Theistic Satanists tend to be maltheists generally.

And that's for kids. Believe in deities or don't, but don't waste time hating them, especially if you don't believe in them. There's no reason for hating the God of the bible, but not hating the Satan of the bible.

Quote:

Even Jesus cursed and destroyed a fig tree - for the offense of not bearing fruit out of season.

So he did. But he also had the ability to create a new fig tree, so I would argue that he had the right to destroy a fig tree, if it didn't belong to anyone.

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Their position is that the god of the Bible is an evil being seeking to keep humanity under his tyranny. Satan is seen as the liberator, Lucifer living up to his name as "Lightbearer" - the one who brings the light of knowledge to humanity to enable them to recognize the Biblical for the sham that he is.

If they base their beliefs on the Scripture, then they can't think of Satan as a liberator as he was the one who deceived mankind, convincing them to abandon God, which resulted in mankind being slaves to imperfection, sin and death. This is what the Scripture says, so saying that based on the Bible Satanists think Satan is a liberator means it's for kids.

Quote:

Go read some of Diane Vera's writings and educate yourself at least a little on the subject before espousing banalities.

I fully admit that I am not aware of Diane Vera's writing, but if what you've just told me of modern Satanism is true, then I don't have to read anything more to know it's for kids.

Written by Guest on 26.10.2010 at 06:00

If they base their beliefs on the Scripture, then they can't think of Satan as a liberator as he was the one who deceived mankind, convincing them to abandon God, which resulted in mankind being slaves to imperfection, sin and death. This is what the Scripture says, so saying that based on the Bible Satanists think Satan is a liberator means it's for kids.

Their beliefs aren't rooted in what you call Scripture (assuming you are referring to the Bible and/or Quran). The Bible is viewed as its god's and his followers' propaganda piece and a deliberate distortion of the "facts" (to use the term loosely). Nor does maltheism have anything to do with hating god. It is the belief that the Biblical god is evil.

I've had some very deep philosophical discussions with theistic Satanists and as a group, in my experience, I would have to say that they demonstrate a higher average level of intelligence than any other religious based grouping I've spent much time conversing with.

Your continuous use of the "kiddies" epithet as a pejorative here is simply demonstrating a level of immaturity on your part. Engage in some active discussions with proponents of a belief system before dismissing them. Or continue acting like a kiddie yourself, It makes no difference to me.

Written by Derwood on 26.10.2010 at 06:13

Their beliefs aren't rooted in what you call Scripture (assuming you are referring to the Bible and/or Quran). The Bible is viewed as its god's and his followers' propaganda piece and a deliberate distortion of the "facts" (to use the term loosely). Nor does maltheism have anything to do with hating god. It is the belief that the Biblical god is evil.

So, let me see if I got this. God = evil, tyrant. Satan = liberator. Bible, Quran = propaganda. Yup, still just for kids. Because you see, if I was going to write a propaganda and used my divine wisdom in order to do so, I wouldn't write down anything that even seemingly put me in a negative light, such as the things you mentioned. The biblical God has been accused of being evil based on the stories of the OT by various critics for decades. If the Bible is propaganda, then it's the worst propaganda I have ever heard of. Of course it's not that, it's a collection of theological writings.
When the North-Korean national football team lost to Portugal 0:7, their reporters told the people the game ended with with the numbers 0:0. That's propaganda. After the Soviets bombed the city of Narva on the eastern border of Estonia to the ground, they wrote in their history books that it was the work of the nazies. That's propaganda. You do not write down anything that can even be interpreted as you being evil in a propaganda piece. To belive otherwise, you would have to be a kid.

Written by Guest on 26.10.2010 at 05:03

Written by whatsacow on 23.10.2010 at 04:54

Really, if you read the bible, satan wasn't so much evil as rebellious.

If you read scripture, he was both.

Quote:

Everyone views him as the bad guy, when in reality, god is more like darth vader with satan and his demons being the rebel forces. I mean god killed someone over a fucking apple!

That's not what the scripture says. Adam and Eve weren't killed, God simply stopped acting to preserve them in existence and they eventually died.

I am well aware of this. However, the whole of humanity lost out on immortality over a simple act of obedience. To me, thats not exactly loving. Satan has done bad, but really god has paralleled everything god has done. Satan tried people like Job, God asked Abraham to sacrifice the son that it had taken so much for them to conceive. Satan possessed people, god puts his spirit inside of people. Satan tried to "corrupt" jesus, jesus tried to "convert" satan.

I am not a believer in satanism, but I must say your comment "Satanism is for kids" Is rather ignorant. True, there are a lot of idiotic teens and youths who worship satan simply because its "evil," But there are plenty of real, committed and normal satanists.

Written by whatsacow on 26.10.2010 at 13:13

I am well aware of this. However, the whole of humanity lost out on immortality over a simple act of obedience. To me, thats not exactly loving.

I'd hate to sound like an apologist (I loath them), but I guess I have no choice but to explain what I appear to understand better than others. As far as all mankind loosing their immortality, yes, that is correct. However, God certainly didn't force Adam and Eve to bring children into an imperfect world. They suffered the concequences of their own choice and so did their kids. As for a simple act of disobedience, it was a little more than that. It was the two of them saying they didn't want God to preserve them in existence. They knew the concequences of what they were doing and still chose to do it. It would have been tyrannical of God to keep interfering with their existence after they turned their naked butts on him.

Quote:

Satan has done bad, but really god has paralleled everything god has done. Satan tried people like Job, God asked Abraham to sacrifice the son that it had taken so much for them to conceive.

That was just a test of faith. There are a great many number of things that have to be taken into account here. First of all, the only reason Abraham had a son was because God performed a miracle. Second, the same God who gave Abraham a son had sworn that Isac would be the father of a nation. Third, Isac was a grown man when God tested Abraham, who was already about 100 years old. It's not like Isac was a six year old, who would have had his pscyhology totally farked up from the event. If he wanted to, he could have kicked Abraham's ass. They knew Isac wouldn't die, they knew God wouldn't let something that horrible happen and they proved it. BIG DEAL.

Quote:

Satan possessed people, god puts his spirit inside of people. Satan tried to "corrupt" jesus, jesus tried to "convert" satan.

The ultimate destruction of Satan is the first prophecy in Scripture. It would have been asinine for Jesus to attempt to convert someone he knew was beyond redemption. And guess what? Jesus in fact never tried to convert Satan.

Quote:

I am not a believer in satanism, but I must say your comment "Satanism is for kids" Is rather ignorant. True, there are a lot of idiotic teens and youths who worship satan simply because its "evil," But there are plenty of real, committed and normal satanists.

So far, nothing I've been told has changed my mind that Satanism is in fact for kids. Anyone who thinks the Bible qualifies as propaganda is being childish and I call things the way I see them. Until proven wrong. Which you haven't. Try again. Short. Sentences. FTW.

Written by Guest on 26.10.2010 at 14:27

Written by whatsacow on 26.10.2010 at 13:13

I am well aware of this. However, the whole of humanity lost out on immortality over a simple act of obedience. To me, thats not exactly loving.

I'd hate to sound like an apologist (I loath them), but I guess I have no choice but to explain what I appear to understand better than others. As far as all mankind loosing their immortality, yes, that is correct. However, God certainly didn't force Adam and Eve to bring children into an imperfect world. They suffered the concequences of their own choice and so did their kids. As for a simple act of disobedience, it was a little more than that. It was the two of them saying they didn't want God to preserve them in existence. They knew the concequences of what they were doing and still chose to do it. It would have been tyrannical of God to keep interfering with their existence after they turned their naked butts on him.

Quote:

Satan has done bad, but really god has paralleled everything god has done. Satan tried people like Job, God asked Abraham to sacrifice the son that it had taken so much for them to conceive.

That was just a test of faith. There are a great many number of things that have to be taken into account here. First of all, the only reason Abraham had a son was because God performed a miracle. Second, the same God who gave Abraham a son had sworn that Isac would be the father of a nation. Third, Isac was a grown man when God tested Abraham, who was already about 100 years old. It's not like Isac was a six year old, who would have had his pscyhology totally farked up from the event. If he wanted to, he could have kicked Abraham's ass. They knew Isac wouldn't die, they knew God wouldn't let something that horrible happen and they proved it. BIG DEAL.

Quote:

Satan possessed people, god puts his spirit inside of people. Satan tried to "corrupt" jesus, jesus tried to "convert" satan.

The ultimate destruction of Satan is the first prophecy in Scripture. It would have been asinine for Jesus to attempt to convert someone he knew was beyond redemption. And guess what? Jesus in fact never tried to convert Satan.

Quote:

I am not a believer in satanism, but I must say your comment "Satanism is for kids" Is rather ignorant. True, there are a lot of idiotic teens and youths who worship satan simply because its "evil," But there are plenty of real, committed and normal satanists.

So far, nothing I've been told has changed my mind that Satanism is in fact for kids. Anyone who thinks the Bible qualifies as propaganda is being childish and I call things the way I see them. Until proven wrong. Which you haven't. Try again. Short. Sentences. FTW.

Im not trying to prove you wrong, im just saying there are other opinions that matter other than your own.

Written by whatsacow on 26.10.2010 at 14:39

Im not trying to prove you wrong, im just saying there are other opinions that matter other than your own.

And I hugely respect everyone's opinions, even if I disagree with those opinions. I am just intellectually agressive, because it makes people think (I know it works when used on me). That doesn't mean I don't like or respect the people I am talking to. If I was having a conversation with a satanist, I would never dismiss his opinions by saying that he belongs to a religion that is meant for kids, even though that's what I think of satanism. I am sure that intelligent satanists don't take this opinion personally, just like I don't feel personally offended when someone calls my favorite bands like Rhapsody and Sonata Arctica flower metal. Hope that cleared up my position a bit

I really enjoyed reading the whole *ErnilEnNaur* // *Derwood* // *Whats_A_Cow* thingy

A whole conversation based on divergent opinions leading to, well, nothing since you guys totally went off topic, switching from Modern Satanism discussion to bible interpretation... made me lose a fair 20 minutes and I havent learned much well I'v learned about science fiction and Intellectual Agression thats for sure

Written by Guest on 26.10.2010 at 15:53

Written by whatsacow on 26.10.2010 at 14:39

Im not trying to prove you wrong, im just saying there are other opinions that matter other than your own.

And I hugely respect everyone's opinions, even if I disagree with those opinions. I am just intellectually agressive, because it makes people think (I know it works when used on me). That doesn't mean I don't like or respect the people I am talking to. If I was having a conversation with a satanist, I would never dismiss his opinions by saying that he belongs to a religion that is meant for kids, even though that's what I think of satanism. I am sure that intelligent satanists don't take this opinion personally, just like I don't feel personally offended when someone calls my favorite bands like Rhapsody and Sonata Arctica flower metal. Hope that cleared up my position a bit

Yeah...those are pretty gay bands, man. But that's just like...ugh, ugh, my opinion, man. lol

Written by TheBigRossowski on 22.12.2010 at 19:03

Yeah...those are pretty gay bands, man. But that's just like...ugh, ugh, my opinion, man. lol

I actually hate the latest albums from Sonata. I wish they were gay, if that also meant that they went back to the good old style of Ecliptica and Silence.

Written by Guest on 26.10.2010 at 05:03


Satanism is for kids.

If you put it like that, any organized religion is for kids. I don't understand how is Satanism different from Christianity or Islam or whatever in this aspect. In fact, I'd even say LaVeyan Satanism is the most rational one of those. At least it doesn't preach the existence of some omnipotent entity that loves you unconditionally, but sends you to burn in hell for all eternity for masturbating or missing church on Sunday. :
(I used a banal example, but you get the point)

So the guy's statements and rules are the most rational. Big deal.

Although the morality is quite respectable, the whole thing is pointless. Why confine yourself to doctrines?

Written by Slayer666 on 12.01.2011 at 17:33

In fact, I'd even say LaVeyan Satanism is the most rational one of those.

From what I know of his Satanism, it's not Satanism. It's just good old liberalism that pretends it's something new and anti-theistic. But I confess that I am not as familiar with it as I should be to discuss it further. I should have read about it on Wiki, but I was too busy masturb...I mean mastering every single quest at Shadows Of Amn.

Oh dear that didn't come out right...

Written by vezzy on 12.01.2011 at 18:23

So the guy's statements and rules are the most rational. Big deal.

Although the morality is quite respectable, the whole thing is pointless. Why confine yourself to doctrines?

You mean, coitus?

Just teasing, man. Sometimes, the quotes are a MUST, especially when we're thinking in circles.

Written by Guest on 12.01.2011 at 20:42

Written by Slayer666 on 12.01.2011 at 17:33

In fact, I'd even say LaVeyan Satanism is the most rational one of those.

From what I know of his Satanism, it's not Satanism. It's just good old liberalism that pretends it's something new and anti-theistic. But I confess that I am not as familiar with it as I should be to discuss it further. I should have read about it on Wiki, but I was too busy masturb...I mean mastering every single quest at Shadows Of Amn.

Oh dear that didn't come out right...

Actually, it is Satanism.

Satanism doesn't necessarily have to be theistic ritual sacrifice schlock.

Written by vezzy on 12.01.2011 at 20:49

Actually, it is Satanism.
Satanism doesn't necessarily have to be theistic ritual sacrifice schlock.

As I said, I don't know enough so I'd rather keep silent on this matter but I see many libertarian elements in his Satanism, which makes me wonder whether the whole "left hand path" thing isn't just a desperate attempt at becoming notorious.

Also, apparently I wrote liberalism instead of libertarianism in the previous post. I've been up for 30 h straight and really shouldn't be discussing anything right now.

Written by Guest on 12.01.2011 at 20:42

I mean mastering every single quest at Shadows Of Amn.

Quote:

I've been up for 30 h straight

For some reason, I think these two are related.

@Vezzy
No big deal. I was just replying to Ernil's "Satanism is for kids" statement, when in fact, it's the furthest one from it compared to other major religions.

Written by Slayer666 on 13.01.2011 at 21:31

Written by Guest on 12.01.2011 at 20:42

I mean mastering every single quest at Shadows Of Amn.

Quote:

I've been up for 30 h straight

For some reason, I think these two are related.

Who needs a life when you've got Baldur's Gate?

I think LaVey's concept is intriguing. Funny because I was into it for quite some time... then abandoned it for the latter occult material. I even criticized the Church of Satan, probably some where in this thread. However, I'm re-finding the Satanic message from LaVey (thanks to Peter H. Gilmore).

There should be a line between pure devil-worship and Satanism though.

Satanism (as explained by Nikolas Schreck): Anti-theism meets Thomas Malthus. Leave the Malthus out and I would have more respect for Satanism.

On top of that, it appears that, overwhelmingly, Satanic writers lack a sense of humor and irony. Irony: This is not a good impression for those who want to be taken seriously to make.

Written by whatsacow on 23.10.2010 at 04:54

What is the big deal with satanism? Is it the violence associated with it? Because if it is, bloodshed is in every religion. Look at every war in the history of ver and you cant say religion had no part in it. Is it the rituals? They may be disturbing, but so is re-enacting crucifixion.
Really, if you read the bible, satan wasn't so much evil as rebellious. Everyone views him as the bad guy, when in reality, god is more like darth vader with satan and his demons being the rebel forces. I mean god killed someone over a fucking apple!
Satanism is another perfectly legitimate religion. It is another interpretation of an already laid groundwork. Like all religions, its extremists are brought to the fore, and I am highly against using religion of any sort to use violence, or other things.
So what is the big deal?

I totally agrre with you. Even "The War Against Terrorism" is actually a religion-driven war.

Written by Slayer666 on 13.01.2011 at 21:31

....., when in fact, it's the furthest one from it compared to other major religions.

you are kiddiong I hope.

In fact it is just as childish (and dare even say so: more childish than) as all major religions.
Satanism and all religions are on the same totally pathetic level. It is for people who can't make up theior minds for themselves.

Same with Marcel here... I think it's laughable to think that satanism is somehow more "mature". It's all the same bullshit if you ask me

I'm guessing the problem with Satanism is that people are seldom brought up on it (an assumption there) so can't use the excuse that they were indoctrinated when young, rather it's a "choice" they make when older. And that choice is likely to be influence by what's cool, regardless of the stance they take on their "religion" of Satanism, be it philosophical or otherwise.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 28.02.2012 at 02:06

you are kiddiong I hope.

In fact it is just as childish (and dare even say so: more childish than) as all major religions.
Satanism and all religions are on the same totally pathetic level. It is for people who can't make up theior minds for themselves.

No, I'm not. (the response you're about to read assumes we're talking about LaVeyan Satanism)

It's pretty safe to say a religion A (namely Satanism) makes more sense than a religion B (major religions) if religion A isn't as chuck full of self-contradictions as religion B.

LaVeyan Satanism is stupid, I agree. But is it any more stupid than claiming you'll be sent to a place of eternal torment by someone who loves you unconditionally if you don't accept his son as your savior, just because some skank ate some fruit from some tree fuck-knows how many years ago? No it isn't. Is striving to perfect oneself more stupid than willingly equating yourself to a sheep? Not really.

Again, I don't give a shit about any religion, and that includes Satanism, but claiming that what LeVey preached is any more childish, stupid and whatnot than what other religions preach is pretty stupid in itself.

Written by Slayer666 on 28.02.2012 at 21:08

you'll be sent to a place of eternal torment by someone who loves you unconditionally if you don't accept his son as your savior, just because some skank ate some fruit from some tree fuck-knows how many years ago

So this is your conception of Christian faith? It's like saying "Metal: Blokes with long hair and black leather outfits making pointless noise just because they think it makes them awesome." or "Opera: Fat lady in a fancy dress standing on a stage and making weird and stupid sounds so that silly people can listen to it and think it's culture or some similar bullshit."
Actually God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. If you're a father, sure you tell your son not to become a junkie, so to speak, right? If he still becomes a junkie after all and ends up in jail, impaired or dead, is it because you punished him? No, he created his own hell, so to speak.

Written by Slayer666 on 28.02.2012 at 21:08

striving to perfect oneself

A very good characteristic of Christian ideals, thanks for mentioning it...

Written by Slayer666 on 28.02.2012 at 21:08

willingly equating yourself to a sheep

In what sense? You probably refer to the allegory of Christ being the kind shepherd who loves every single little sheep of his herd and helps even the ones who wander far away from him, get lost and end up almost eaten by big bad wolves? Yeah. Mayb my example is better. If your son is a stupid ass who ruins his own life, will you stop loving him because of that? Will you just forget him? Unconditional love, that's what they say...

Equating yourself to an animal (not particularly a sheep) is another thing, however. It's always easier to be an ass. It's always easier to do things that are not just (want-take-have) without thinking about the possible consequences. It's always easier to give in to your desire to feel superior to others, to do something good for yourself (or at least what seems good at a given moment) and cause sadness or pain to others (whether they deserve it or not.) However, when people don't think of all these things, when they think that they're free to do whatever they will (yep, we are free indeed) without thinking about the aftermath, then one might end up drifting farther and farther away from perfection. If you want perfection, you need to work on it. You're not perfect, neither am I. I doubt there's any perfect people here. It's a lifelong progress of learning. Learning from your mistakes, also from the good things you do, from the good things that are done to you, from the nasty things that others might make you go through, from what life brings you, learning how to respect and love others. And knowing that you'll still never be perfect. Perfection is something you'll never reach. None of us.

If someone says that "Ah, we're by no means perfect so why even try? Let's just stop pretending." then you'd call it "giving up" wouldn't you?
And also the thing some say "I make my own destiny." Yes and no. Things you do, do have consequences. But not everything on this earth depends on you. You can't arrange everything for yourself alone. You will still depend on what other people do, what happens around you in the nature, on this planet etc. Thinking about all of that, you can't actually even plan what happens to you tomorrow. What you can do, is learning how to become a better person. See above.

Thelema 4ever.