Communism
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Over the course of the last two weeks i have seen a lot of references to communism, unanimously either dismissive of it's possibility or simply against it because of the whole Soviet experiment in the 20th century.
This thread is one for educating the mass of metalstormers just what communism is about, why communists believe it is a viable economic model, and the history of communism, and hopefully there are some commies here apart from me who can contribute to discussion about the finer and undecided points (what form should the revolution take, where/when, etc).
Here's a few starting points that i want to make quite clear:
1) There has never been a communist society existing on a national level. None have ever claimed to be communist. Of the very few that call themselves socialist, hardly any are truly socialist in the actual literal definition of the word. Referring to china, north korea or russia in this thread is pointless, as none of those are connected in any meaningful manner to Communism.
2) Communism is the STATELESS society achieved after an international proletarian revolution, which abolishes the oppressive capitalist system in all it's forms, and to it's deepest roots. I'm talking total and complete wiping of the board and remaking it all. No more money, no more companies, no more countries, no more employment, no more religion (negotiable according to some communists), an entire life change. This comes to be after a lengthy and natural transition period known as socialism, where an organization of workers coordinates the activities the proletariat for it's own benefit.
3) Communism means revolution, and not some wussy social revolution. It cannot be achieved through the political system, the political system must be overthrown and destroyed, as it (like all institutions of our society) exists solely to concentrate power (and therefore money) in the hands of a few. The scale and conduct of the revolution is a matter of debate amongst communists.
4) Anarchism (in it's pure form) is exactly as above, except that anarchists believe that we will be able to, and must, slip straight into communism after the revolution, so i count anarchists as communists. Henceforth then people adhering to the principles stated above will be referred to as marxists.
Question, comment, challenge or even flame, but please oh please at least have read this post before writing "COMMIES FVKK3D UP RUSSKIELAND!!11", or even a coherent and valid post raging against the PRK, PRC or (former)USSR. And any other MS commies lend a hand please!
This thread is one for educating the mass of metalstormers just what communism is about, why communists believe it is a viable economic model, and the history of communism, and hopefully there are some commies here apart from me who can contribute to discussion about the finer and undecided points (what form should the revolution take, where/when, etc).
Here's a few starting points that i want to make quite clear:
1) There has never been a communist society existing on a national level. None have ever claimed to be communist. Of the very few that call themselves socialist, hardly any are truly socialist in the actual literal definition of the word. Referring to china, north korea or russia in this thread is pointless, as none of those are connected in any meaningful manner to Communism.
2) Communism is the STATELESS society achieved after an international proletarian revolution, which abolishes the oppressive capitalist system in all it's forms, and to it's deepest roots. I'm talking total and complete wiping of the board and remaking it all. No more money, no more companies, no more countries, no more employment, no more religion (negotiable according to some communists), an entire life change. This comes to be after a lengthy and natural transition period known as socialism, where an organization of workers coordinates the activities the proletariat for it's own benefit.
3) Communism means revolution, and not some wussy social revolution. It cannot be achieved through the political system, the political system must be overthrown and destroyed, as it (like all institutions of our society) exists solely to concentrate power (and therefore money) in the hands of a few. The scale and conduct of the revolution is a matter of debate amongst communists.
4) Anarchism (in it's pure form) is exactly as above, except that anarchists believe that we will be able to, and must, slip straight into communism after the revolution, so i count anarchists as communists. Henceforth then people adhering to the principles stated above will be referred to as marxists.
Question, comment, challenge or even flame, but please oh please at least have read this post before writing "COMMIES FVKK3D UP RUSSKIELAND!!11", or even a coherent and valid post raging against the PRK, PRC or (former)USSR. And any other MS commies lend a hand please!
| Ellrohir Heaven Knight Posts: 8662 From: Czech Republic  |
Well i need two years at University of economics and to read a few books to be convinced, this is the way...but most ppl were tricked by ordinary politicians so many times, that many simply dont believe there is another way 
---- My rest seems now calm and deep Finally I got my dead man sleep 
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| Haddock666 Posts: 32 From: Finland |
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| MetalstormBANatm Posts: 226 From: Vietnam |
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| mz Posts: 4773  |
"This thread is one for educating...why communists believe it is a viable economic model,.." you lost me here.
---- Giving my ears a rest from music.
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| Bad English Tage Westerlund Posts: 60961 From: Sweden  |
Written by MetalstormBANatm on 21.07.2019 at 04:47 Visest words someone ever said about this topic..
---- Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!! Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''  apos;'[image] I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
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| Karlabos Meat and Potatos Posts: 5658 From: Brazil  |
To be fair capitalism doesn't work, as well. To the best of my knowledge humanity is yet to find an economic model that works
---- "Aah! The cat turned into a cat!" - Reimu Hakurei
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| Bad English Tage Westerlund Posts: 60961 From: Sweden |
Written by Karlabos on 22.01.2022 at 12:09 In capitalism in theory you can be rich.... But problem is we are to many in this planet
---- Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!! Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die'' apos;'[image] I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
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| MetalstormBANatm Posts: 226 From: Vietnam |
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| Metal Rasputin Posts: 1108 From: Finland  |
I would love to see bunch of real communists finally get their wish and start building their little utopia free from the oppression. I'm not judging anyone or saying it's morally wrong or anything, but it would definitely be interesting just from mathematical standpoint alone, since if they don't have money, property rights or free trade they won't have any functional way of measuring economic shit or have any reliable accounting, so the system would be basically unmanageable. It would be interesting to see how they would overcome these issues, or if it's even humanly possible.
---- You've got a lot of guts. Let's see what they look like!
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| Karlabos Meat and Potatos Posts: 5658 From: Brazil |
Written by Metal Rasputin on 29.06.2023 at 05:30 The whole idea of a system both free of government and with equality is already fundamentally wrong. The reason is simple: equality is not natural, and thus can only be achieved by force. Different people work in a different pace and therefore contribute to society in a different amount. If we are to reward people for their jobs fairly, then the natural would be rewarding them in an inequal manner. So how would we make people be equal then? Either we force them to work equally (so no free of government), or either we pay them unfairly, which requires manipulation of the market (also not free of government). So even if socialists would ever achieve their "final stage" it still wouldn't even work.
---- "Aah! The cat turned into a cat!" - Reimu Hakurei
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| Metal Rasputin Posts: 1108 From: Finland |
Written by Karlabos on 29.06.2023 at 13:51 Socialist experiments with recruitment policies and job market are utterly fascinating piece of history with pretty predictable results for anyone with even the slightest idea on how economy works: when paid equal salary people really didn't have any reason to work harder because they couldn't benefit from it, nobody wanted to do any physical or dangerous work because they could get the same wage from the easiest office jobs, then you got forced labor who ended up in coal mines and such. Then they purposefully recruited working class people on demanding leading positions for equity reasons alone and things ended up in disaster just because they didn't have proper expertise to handle any real situation. Messing around with this stuff alone easily turns into complete chaos and catastrophe, so pretty safe to say we won't be seeing communist utopia anytime soon.
---- You've got a lot of guts. Let's see what they look like!
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| Desha delicious dish Posts: 800 From: Germany  |
Written by Karlabos on 29.06.2023 at 13:51 This is why "equality" is not a goal of socialists. Socialism is. It's from each according to their ability to each according to their need. Not everyone contributes and does the same and gets the same. Not that it would matter much in a society where money and social classes and commodity production are abolished.
---- You are the hammer, I am the nail building a house in the fire on the hill
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| TheCrazyGoat Posts: 94 From: Greece  |
Communism is the most beautiful and open minded ideology humanity created. If we unite we can make communism work but the western propaganda about communism the wrongs that happened in the Eastern Block or Maoism in China that is definitely capitalism with communist symbols has made a wrong view to the world about it
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| JoHn Doe Posts: 4874  |
Written by TheCrazyGoat on 08.08.2023 at 13:25 
---- I thought the two primary purposes for the internet were cat memes and overreactions.
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| TheCrazyGoat Posts: 94 From: Greece |
Written by JoHn Doe on 08.08.2023 at 13:34 Yes I'm serious. What happened in the fake communist countries that even them didn't tell that they were communist because they were socialist is not what communism is about. Communism is about freedom and solidarity, it is not a dictatorship. In communism anyone cares if you are gay or straight, black or white or eveyrthing. In communism we all are human because communism is humanism
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| JoHn Doe Posts: 4874 |
^   alrighty then, I'll see myself out, sorry to be bothering...
---- I thought the two primary purposes for the internet were cat memes and overreactions.
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| Nejde CommunityManager Posts: 1453 From: Sweden  |
Mind blown  I'm not even gonna get into this discussion. Thank you though TheCrazyGoat for the good laugh. It made my day 
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| MetalstormBANatm Posts: 226 From: Vietnam |
Written by TheCrazyGoat on 08.08.2023 at 13:53 You are 13 or something ?
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| Metal Rasputin Posts: 1108 From: Finland |
I'm just curious, what kind of special freedom this hypothetical "real communism" could actually have that some other liberal kind of state doesn't already possess, like freedom of expression, free trade, liberal gun ownership, freedom from slavery, legal drugs, democracy, constitutional liberties, human rights, etc. Edit. There's another thing I forgot. Wasn't this whole communism thingie about the ownership of the means of production? And communism comes when you take the means of production from capitalists and give them to the workers, and then the state starts to die off slowly by itself, etc. In that sense, what do you think went wrong in Soviet Union? Weren't the Bolsheviks real working class or what? Maybe they were capitalists in disguise??
---- You've got a lot of guts. Let's see what they look like!
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| Karlabos Meat and Potatos Posts: 5658 From: Brazil |
^ This is another contradiction I see in the whole thing. How are the means of production going to be distributed to the workers? Is everybody going to be a boss? Is everybody going to know how to operate every single mean of production and rotate the labor? There is no way of logistically doing this unless you give the task of coordination to a select group of people... Like the nomenklatura were. In the end you will always end up with a "dictatorship of the party of the proletariat", and not with a "dictatorship of the proletariat" as desired... This is what we see in every instance of socialist-influenced dictatorship nowadays. The dictatorship of the communist party in China, the dictatorship of Maduro's party in Venezuela and so on...
---- "Aah! The cat turned into a cat!" - Reimu Hakurei
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| Metal Rasputin Posts: 1108 From: Finland |
Written by Karlabos on 12.10.2023 at 17:56 This thing actually gets even more bonkers the more you think about it. Who or what is supposed to be the legit "worker" the theory is talking about, for example if your parents are middle class or champagne socialists and you choose to become blue collar chad, then are you 100%, 50%, 25% or 0% worker and does it mean that if you get your hands on the means of production, communism comes 100%, 50%, etc. slower/faster, or maybe the end product will be somehow different kind of communism. How on earth could you measure any of this and why the heck would this law of nature care about your family anyway? And if there's a difference, then wouldn't it be the optimal choice to find as corrupted and incompetent lowlifes as possible and put them in charge just so that the right kind of communism could be achieved as soon as possible, kinda like what the Khmer Rouge did in Cambodia and killed nearly third of the population in few short years.
---- You've got a lot of guts. Let's see what they look like!
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| TheCrazyGoat Posts: 94 From: Greece |
Written by MetalstormBANatm on 11.10.2023 at 08:41 I am not 13 I am a student of the department of Political Science and International Relations of the University of Peloponnese. I think I know many things about politics and I have a lot more things to learn of course.
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| Nejde CommunityManager Posts: 1453 From: Sweden |
Written by TheCrazyGoat on 08.08.2023 at 13:25 Communism (or communist regimes if you like) has killed up to as much as 148 million people. So yes, very beautiful and open minded ideology indeed.
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| TheCrazyGoat Posts: 94 From: Greece |
Written by Nejde on 22.10.2023 at 17:35 Communism didn't kill anyone. These politicians that killed this number of people weren't real communists. The thing that someone is calling himself communist does not mean that he is. What you do make you communist and not what you say. And I would like to see some day a report how many people have killed by politicians that call themselves capitalists. And when I speak about capitalism I mean and right and left capitalism because capitalists are the same rights or lefts.
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| Nejde CommunityManager Posts: 1453 From: Sweden |
Written by TheCrazyGoat on 22.10.2023 at 18:10 Regimes in the name of communism has. Lenin and Stalin killed around one million people per year during their reigns by executions or sending people to work camps where the prisoners succumbed to starvation and famine. And let's not even talk about China, not during Mao or now under Xi Jinping's regime. So saying that communism didn't kill anyone is just stupid.
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| TheCrazyGoat Posts: 94 From: Greece |
Written by Nejde on 22.10.2023 at 19:06 First of all Lenin and Stalin are two different things. Second China is the second biggest capitalist economy. And last but not least you understood nothing from what I said. You are prejudiced about communism and I do not think this conversation will end somewhere. But I have a question have you ever read Marx?
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| Nejde CommunityManager Posts: 1453 From: Sweden |
Written by TheCrazyGoat on 22.10.2023 at 19:17 You said "communism didn't kill anyone" which it certainly has. And I know China is the second biggest capitalist economy but they're still ruled by a communist regime. And I'm not prejudiced at all. Tell me once when communism has worked? You can't because it hasn't and it never will. And I don't need to read Marx to know that. You just have to look at history or North Korea.
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| mde017 Posts: 72 From: Poland  |
Coming from a former communist country, I can share with you that at the end of this failed experiment, even the communists themselves didn't believe in this ridiculous system that disregards economic principles, our knowledge of human nature, and historical lessons. This utopia is actually very harmful, much more so than fascism. Fascism's inherent rot is so evident that anyone with good intentions quickly realizes its potential for violence. On the other hand, communism entices many well-intentioned individuals who lack a sufficient understanding of economics, history, and political science, making them unaware that every attempt to implement this system has historically led and will inevitably lead to violence and poverty. This is why the communist activists in the West were derogatorily referred to as "useful idiots" by the regimes in the Warsaw Pact. Indeed, they were misguided beyond belief.
---- Okręt mój płynie dalej gdzieś tam Serce choć popękane chce bić Nie ma Cię i nie było jest noc Nie ma mnie i nie było jest dzień
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