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Do you think thrash is the most important metal genre?

NO106
Yes31

Total votes: 137


The original post

Posted by on 10.07.2011 at 02:01
I think thrash is the most important metal genre because:
1. It took metal to the extreme. 80s thrash bands took heavy metal and upped the ante, so we can say thrash is a bridge between Melodic and Extreme metal.
2. It is the base of Death and Black metal, two of the most important genres. Imagine we have Death or Black metal but there's no thrash. Impossible.
3. Thrashy riffs are used in almost every metal genres. I can thrashy riffs even in Ensiferum!
4. Thrash has some of the best metal bands in the world. The 6 most popular bands on MS have 3 thrash bands in them.
So...Do you agree?



Page 5 of 5

deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  14.07.2014 at 05:50
Written by Ganondox on 14.07.2014 at 05:08


No, it's like not judging whether or not Metallica is a thrash band based on "Nothing Else Matters" and "Fade To Black", which, being the first Metallica songs I heard, greatly confused me on Metallica's status. Same as not judging Led Zeppelin based on "Stairway to Heaven". The point isn't whether the band has a few ballads or not, it's whether they played heavy metal. The glam rock and progressive rock songs were specifically pointed out as being exceptions to the albums heavy metal sound by the reviewer.


To get the whole vibe of the album you have to listen to the whole album. How do you know whether the reviewer is right (could be those songs are actually quite metal).




Written by deadone on 14.07.2014 at 02:51

"Thrash Metal is the first point where you can say 'thats metal and not hard rock.'" And that's just your opinion, like anyone elses, there is nothing objective about it. I don't really care what people's opinions are, everyone has there own opinion and that's that, none of these opinions are unreasonable (eg. calling Judas Priest death metal), but none of them can be taken as unquestionable fact. In the broadest sense of rock, all metal is rock. Putting the dividing line at thrash metal is extremely arbirtrary, expecially given the fact you pointed out it's composistion is still based in hard rock. I still hear some people calling the big four thrash bands rock (and not just in reference to recent material), it's death metal I've never head getting called rock. It's just distribution of opinions at that point, thrash is more extreme, so more people call it metal. Yes, Black Sabbath is still bluesly and loose enough to be called hard rock, and they are the metallist of the bands you listed (aside from maybe Ozzy I'd call those all hard rock as well), but by the time the time Judas Priest released Sin After Sin (as well as Sad Wings of Destiny, they just weren't as well defined with their sound then, dably with progressive rock influences and whatnot) their composistion was fundementally different from other hard rock/metal bands, and they were also the first(?) metal band to embrace the label. It should be noted that most pioneers of any sort of genre aren't calling to call themself by the name of the genre as it's a transistion and the label isn't set yet, either they are going to insist they are just another band in whatever their roots are, or they are going to make up so BS genre for themselves that no one else recongizes.


I've heard the three of the four big thrash bands get called rock too - something to do with albums ala Black, Load, Reload, Risk, Cryptic Writings, Stomp 442, We've Come For You All etc.

But never Slayer who I've always seen referred to as metal.

Goes to the whole thing of thrash was where we can first separate metal from hard rock.

In any case Thrash was the first truely extreme underground genre. Even NWOBHM wasn't that underground in its hey day whereas it took Thrash some 7 years to get to mainstream success and then it was only bands that had started to dilute the mix with ever more heavy metal/hard rock influences.

I also think Thrash was the first metal genre to define metal as a form of extreme underground music. Prior to that, metal bands were quite happy to change their sound to ever more commercial styles and were part of the overall rock landscape.
Ganondox

Posts: 436

Age: 18
From: USA

  14.07.2014 at 07:13
Written by deadone on 14.07.2014 at 05:50


To get the whole vibe of the album you have to listen to the whole album. How do you know whether the reviewer is right (could be those songs are actually quite metal).



It's not some random reviewer, it's a guy from allmusic, a major critic. For some reason AllMusic is the only review listed on wikipedia. He may be wrong, those songs might be very metal, but I'm not here to decide whether "Still Fit to Boogie" is glam rock or not, I'm here to decide if the NWOHBM sound is found in Saxon's works, and skipping over those songs cuts to the chase. It's definately there on Wheels of Steel, and I think it's on Saxon as well from what I've heard. I don't have time to listen to whole albums at once often, so stratified "random" samples is the best I can do.


Written by deadone on 14.07.2014 at 02:51

I've heard the three of the four big thrash bands get called rock too - something to do with albums ala Black, Load, Reload, Risk, Cryptic Writings, Stomp 442, We've Come For You All etc.

But never Slayer who I've always seen referred to as metal.

Goes to the whole thing of thrash was where we can first separate metal from hard rock.


I'm pretty sure I've also seen earlier Metallica get called rock, like "Master of Puppets" and "One". Anyway, "Hit the Lights" is pretty thrash, but it's also pretty rockin'. The reason no one calls Slayer rock is because they are fucking Slayer, they are almost a parody of heavy metal. They aren't called hard rock because they are extreme metal, and if extreme metal was the first point where metal could be sepperated from hard rock then the title would be redundant. I don't think anyone is going around calling Candlemass hard rock, and I think the only people who call Iron Maiden hard rock are those who think if it doesn't have harsh screaming, it isn't metal (which can be said for most thrash metal as well). I still disagree with your claim.

Quote:

In any case Thrash was the first truely extreme underground genre. Even NWOBHM wasn't that underground in its hey day whereas it took Thrash some 7 years to get to mainstream success and then it was only bands that had started to dilute the mix with ever more heavy metal/hard rock influences.

Nope, that goes to hardcore punk, which was extreme as it got where it started, and stayed much further from the mainstream than thrash. Or maybe the No Wave scene (noise rock), they were around at around the same time, though thrash has a connection to the hardcore scene. Not to mention that outside of rock there are even more extreme underground genres, eg. industrial, as well as avant-garde music in general. Unless you're speaking just for metal, in which you be right.

Quote:

I also think Thrash was the first metal genre to define metal as a form of extreme underground music. Prior to that, metal bands were quite happy to change their sound to ever more commercial styles and were part of the overall rock landscape.

And that comes from the punk ethos of hardcore, but we see how well that is reflected in certain thrash bands *coughMetallicacough*. If metal has a distinct style to it that can be isolated from hard rock and other forms of rock, it would be the darkness black sabbath introduced. Metal can have pop leanings like hard rock, fantasy leanings like prog, or political leanings like punk, but in regards to rock, while various shock rock dabbled in the occult, it wasn't until metal that such darkness was dwelled in as a musical genre, and it remained exclusive in that extend until gothic rock emerged much later.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  14.07.2014 at 07:48
Written by Ganondox on 14.07.2014 at 07:13

It's not some random reviewer, it's a guy from allmusic, a major critic. For some reason AllMusic is the only review listed on wikipedia. He may be wrong, those songs might be very metal, but I'm not here to decide whether "Still Fit to Boogie" is glam rock or not, I'm here to decide if the NWOHBM sound is found in Saxon's works, and skipping over those songs cuts to the chase. It's definately there on Wheels of Steel, and I think it's on Saxon as well from what I've heard. I don't have time to listen to whole albums at once often, so stratified "random" samples is the best I can do.


It's some reviewer. It could be anyone.

And reviewers can be contradictory ala the very Allmusic critics you think are infallible:

Quote:
Allmusic's Steve Huey rated On Through the Night three-and-a-half out of five stars. He noted that it "established the band as one of the leading lights of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal." He also called it "a collection of working-class hard rock anthems informed by the big, glittering hooks of glam rock."


So Def Leppard's Through The Night is NWOBHM, hard rock and got lots of glam rock? Which is it then?



As for not listening to whole albums, hard to make an assessment listening to "stratified random samples" especially with albums that often had 8 tracks!




Written by deadone on 14.07.2014 at 02:51
The reason no one calls Slayer rock is because they are fucking Slayer, they are almost a parody of heavy metal.






Quote:
They aren't called hard rock because they are extreme metal, and if extreme metal was the first point where metal could be sepperated from hard rock then the title would be redundant.


They're also a Thrash band - hence my point. Megadeth and Metallica always had large dollops of pure heavy metal and hard rock in them. Anthrax from Among The Living was pure Thrash musically but had a very melodic and mainstream sounding vocalist in form of Joey Belladonna.


Quote:
I don't think anyone is going around calling Candlemass hard rock, and I think the only people who call Iron Maiden hard rock are those who think if it doesn't have harsh screaming, it isn't metal (which can be said for most thrash metal as well). I still disagree with your claim.


Candlemass have no mainstream popularity and tend to be a band for mainly underground metalheads. Hence no idea what they would be classified by people into hardrock or whatever.

Iron Maiden's been called hard rock even back in the day before they had screaming in metal.





Quote:

to hardcore punk, which was extreme as it got where it started, and stayed much further from the mainstream than thrash.


Er no - you're missing the entire Punk Explosion in the late 1970s!

Sex Pistols, The Clash etc getting huge very quickly. Clash went No 12 in UK with debut album. Give Em Rope was No 2 in UK and Never Mind The Bollocks was measly No 1. Ramones third album debuted at 49 on Billboard.

Meanwhile Kill Em All peaked at 120 on Billboard in 1986, 3 years after release! Master of Puppets debuted at 128!


Quote:
Or maybe the No Wave scene (noise rock), they were around at around the same time, though thrash has a connection to the hardcore scene. Not to mention that outside of rock there are even more extreme underground genres, eg. industrial, as well as avant-garde music in general. Unless you're speaking just for metal, in which you be right.


Topic is most important metal genre.


Quote:

And that comes from the punk ethos of hardcore, but we see how well that is reflected in certain thrash bands *coughMetallicacough*. If metal has a distinct style to it that can be isolated from hard rock and other forms of rock, it would be the darkness black sabbath introduced. Metal can have pop leanings like hard rock, fantasy leanings like prog, or political leanings like punk, but in regards to rock, while various shock rock dabbled in the occult, it wasn't until metal that such darkness was dwelled in as a musical genre, and it remained exclusive in that extend until gothic rock emerged much later.


Most of the 1970s bands didn't have "dark occult leanings." Black Sabbath was the heaviest and you had later ones like Pentagram. But you're average 1970s heavy metal band didn't bother with the occultism.

Some of the Shock Rock guys embraced it far more - e.g. Alice Cooper which was far more occult than Sabbath who were just as happy singing about being stoned and seeing fairies in boots as they were singing about occultism.

As for darkness, man, Iggy pop had moments of darkness but I wouldn't call his music metal (proto-punk on the other hand).

And most of the metal guys used it for shock value too be it Iron Maiden or Venom or whatever.
Ganondox

Posts: 436

Age: 18
From: USA

  14.07.2014 at 13:25
Written by deadone on 14.07.2014 at 07:48

And reviewers can be contradictory ala the very Allmusic critics you think are infallible:
I said no such thing, just it's more reputable than an truly random person leaving a review. I was just saving time to see if there is metal on it by not wasting my time with the stuff which likely isn't metal.

Quote:

As for not listening to whole albums, hard to make an assessment listening to "stratified random samples" especially with albums that often had 8 tracks!
I don't care about the overall sound of the album, I only care if the NWOBHM sound is represented by them on their early albums as that what determines if a NWOBHM sound exists as defined by the bands.


Quote:

Written by deadone on 14.07.2014 at 02:51
The reason no one calls Slayer rock is because they are fucking Slayer, they are almost a parody of heavy metal.




They write over the top lyrics they don't even take seriously, and played in an equally over the top manner. Obviously they aren't a parody band, but they don't have the most serious attitude towards themselves.


Quote:

They're also a Thrash band - hence my point. Megadeth and Metallica always had large dollops of pure heavy metal and hard rock in them. Anthrax from Among The Living was pure Thrash musically but had a very melodic and mainstream sounding vocalist in form of Joey Belladonna.
But they are still thrash bands, which leads back to the actual distinction being made is between extreme metal and heavy metal, and if extreme metal was the line when metal becomes it's own thing than the title is redundant, it would just be heavy metal.

Quote:

Candlemass have no mainstream popularity and tend to be a band for mainly underground metalheads. Hence no idea what they would be classified by people into hardrock or whatever.

Iron Maiden's been called hard rock even back in the day before they had screaming in metal.


And the big four of thrash had no mainstream popularity until they were cemented as the kings of metal. I'm sure a good deal of people would call them hard rock simply because they think metal is just stuff, but would the hard rock fans be ready to adopt them and say they aren't metal?

As for Iron Maiden, can you find an example where the person personally made a distinction between hard rock and heavy metal? Pretty sure mainly people simply used the hard in hard rock as an adjective back then, and metal is rock. Again, genres take time to be recognized.

Quote:


Er no - you're missing the entire Punk Explosion in the late 1970s!

Sex Pistols, The Clash etc getting huge very quickly. Clash went No 12 in UK with debut album. Give Em Rope was No 2 in UK and Never Mind The Bollocks was measly No 1. Ramones third album debuted at 49 on Billboard.

Meanwhile Kill Em All peaked at 120 on Billboard in 1986, 3 years after release! Master of Puppets debuted at 128!


....
....
....
I said HARDCORE punk, like you said THRASH metal. Sex Pistols, The Clash, and the Ramones aren't hardcore in the slightest. Minor Threat's only album, Out of Step, never even made it onto the billboard 200, but it's still considered one of the most important hardcore albums, it's on 1001 Albums to Hear Before You Die. By your logic, thrash metal is super mainstream because Black Sabbath reached #8 and Paranoid peaked at #1.


Quote:

Topic is most important metal genre.
And I never argued that thrash was the first extreme metal genre, just not first extreme underground genre.


Quote:

Most of the 1970s bands didn't have "dark occult leanings." Black Sabbath was the heaviest and you had later ones like Pentagram. But you're average 1970s heavy metal band didn't bother with the occultism.

Some of the Shock Rock guys embraced it far more - e.g. Alice Cooper which was far more occult than Sabbath who were just as happy singing about being stoned and seeing fairies in boots as they were singing about occultism.

As for darkness, man, Iggy pop had moments of darkness but I wouldn't call his music metal (proto-punk on the other hand).

And most of the metal guys used it for shock value too be it Iron Maiden or Venom or whatever.


I was only using occult elements as an example of darkness in rock, they are far from the only dark themes in heavy metal, and most heavy metal was noticeably darker than hard rock. This even applies to Rainbow. Of course there is range of lyrical themes, that applies to every genre except those explicitly defined by their lyrical content. The difference is shock rock isn't a real genre, it's a performance style, spanning everything from rock n' roll to thrash metal (I think black metal is only excluded because it would be redundant, and the fact many of them went a step further), while heavy metal is a musical style. Aside from some overlap like aforementioned occult, I hardly mean the same thing by dark themes, like KISS is shock rock but their lyrical themes are much lighter than even Judas Priest. Anyway, while Iron Maiden has some shock rock elements, if you've ever looked at their lyrics you can hardly explain all their dark themes as merely been done to shock, only some of them.

Iggy Pop is one band, he is not a genre. Most protopunk isn't dark in the manner heavy metal is. However, I have called him a heavy metal singer on occasion, not sure why.
Guib

Posts: 2065

Age: 23
From: Canada

  14.07.2014 at 23:52
Quote: ''Woa... let's not, BLOW, things out of proportion..''

The quotes are getting a bit heavy, just saying.
I mean it's fun and all your little fight... but yeah.
----
- I love my technical, melodic, my thrash, agressive and fast paced, my sludge, well thought, my heavy, heavier and my metal, ever-growing -
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  15.07.2014 at 02:19
Written by Ganondox on 14.07.2014 at 13:25

They write over the top lyrics they don't even take seriously, and played in an equally over the top manner. Obviously they aren't a parody band, but they don't have the most serious attitude towards themselves.


Neither did most bands at least in those days.


Quote:
I said HARDCORE punk, like you said THRASH metal. Sex Pistols, The Clash, and the Ramones aren't hardcore in the slightest. Minor Threat's only album, Out of Step, never even made it onto the billboard 200, but it's still considered one of the most important hardcore albums, it's on 1001 Albums to Hear Before You Die. By your logic, thrash metal is super mainstream because Black Sabbath reached #8 and Paranoid peaked at #1.


Actually it just goes to show popular early Heavy Metal was and how it didn't exhibit the metal underground obsession that started with thrash.
Ganondox

Posts: 436

Age: 18
From: USA

  15.07.2014 at 16:11
And it was most popular through the 80's when thrash was also it's biggest. I'm getting tired of this discussion, I've said my opinion and that is that.
Flatulent Walrus

Posts: 5
  28.08.2014 at 21:30
I like a couple of thrash bands, but generally it's not a genre that interests me. When I hear thrash, I hear... too much punk, more than metal. To my ears anyway.

Maybe it's a Brit thing, but anything that sounds even remotely like punk elicits a rather... 'euwwww' response from myself.

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