I guess the title of this thread says it all, but I will attempt to elaborate further, because this is a serious question. Because we all seem to understand the practical implications weather or not we know how to word it, we say an outcome is either "Just" or "un-just". Often we make this claim without deeper thought of what justice really is, what it implies and weather it is right to punish someone who has committed and act of injustice with a further in-justice of you own.
I suppose some of this need clarification, and I will attempt to break it down accordingly, but feel free to ask me if your unsure of something I've said, and need clarification on something before you write a response to this question.
So lets break it down to help you guys respond with an adequate understanding of what I'm talking about. Because I'm after a deeper response to this question than "Justice simply is!"

1 - Most if not all human societies have used a notion or concept of justice since pre-historic times. Indeed most if not all humans have some understanding of the concept of justice. But what is it and what does it really imply? (Is it simple a matter of punishing an individual for some infraction upon the society in which they live - Is justice a method of society gaining retribution for acts which may not be acceptable to that society - Is justice just a modern interpretation of the concept of eye-for-an-eye - Or is it something else?)

2 - Often a common issue I have noticed in the action's of justice are that an in-justice is often countered with further in-justice which society claims to be right. I suppose one bone of contention is Capital-Punishment, another might be simply locking people in prison without any effort to rehabilitate them back into society. (I suppose one thing to ask here is that can an un-just act such as murder be justified if it is being carried out on a murderer (Osama bin-Laden might be a question here, wouldn't it have served the cause better to capture him alive and put him on trial?) - if so, is it not simply an eye-for-an-eye? What is your opinion?)

3 - I want people to define justice in words, not to simply point out a just act, and to make a distinction between right and wrong, I want to know what makes JUSTICE - RIGHT. What qualifies as an unjust act (not examples, but in general). The reason for this is that rarely in the modern world is the notion of justice itself questioned, and I want to drag out of people not just examples of justice, not just a distinction of what is "RIGHT", but why it is right, who says its right and what if anything makes the alternative wrong.

I dont believe in justice. not in the social justice concept, nor the divine justice. bcoz it dosent exist!
but i do believe in Karma. (kinda disappointing, i know)

I never have thought about what it is, seems its when you pay beck to bastards who did bad to you, but someone pay beck to me what I did to them, one thing I know justice is not anything what is written in law, you kill someone do time, its not a justice, so seems there no justice or justice is outlaw for every ppl it is own.

Written by Roro on 26.07.2011 at 11:28

I dont believe in justice. not in the social justice concept, nor the divine justice. bcoz it dosent exist!
but i do believe in Karma. (kinda disappointing, i know)

But isn't Karma a kind of justice in itself?

Written by Bad English on 27.07.2011 at 00:35

I never have thought about what it is, seems its when you pay beck to bastards who did bad to you, but someone pay beck to me what I did to them, one thing I know justice is not anything what is written in law, you kill someone do time, its not a justice, so seems there no justice or justice is outlaw for every ppl it is own.

That is true that there is not justice written in law. That is what makes this such an interesting question. We seem to be able to recognise justice when it occurs but we often seem to struggle to define it.

Here is the Oxford definition, but there are a few so maybe this will help but maybe make it more complicated because, they merely describe the act of justice, but not necessarily what it is.

Justice: 1. quality of being just; righteousness 2. rightful or lawfulness, as of a claim or title 3. moral principle determining just conduct 4. just conduct, dealing, or treatment 5. the giving of what is deserved as by punishment or reward 6. the keeping or carrying out of of law, as by legal or other means 7. judgment of persons or causes by legal process 8. judge or magistrate

These definition only seem to serve to complicate the question, they merely describe the act of justice or of some title. But none of them seem to answer the question being asked.

Written by ToMegaTherion on 27.07.2011 at 00:57

Written by Roro on 26.07.2011 at 11:28

I dont believe in justice. not in the social justice concept, nor the divine justice. bcoz it dosent exist!
but i do believe in Karma. (kinda disappointing, i know)

But isn't Karma a kind of justice in itself?

maybe, i guess karma is based on ur previous actions toward ur self b4 the others. its like ur inner "justice" or whatever it names.
i dont know.. i am kinda twisted and started to questioning about everything. for me i cant see justice anywhere.

Written by Roro on 27.07.2011 at 07:49

Written by ToMegaTherion on 27.07.2011 at 00:57

Written by Roro on 26.07.2011 at 11:28

I dont believe in justice. not in the social justice concept, nor the divine justice. bcoz it dosent exist!
but i do believe in Karma. (kinda disappointing, i know)

But isn't Karma a kind of justice in itself?

maybe, i guess karma is based on ur previous actions toward ur self b4 the others. its like ur inner "justice" or whatever it names.
i dont know.. i am kinda twisted and started to questioning about everything. for me i cant see justice anywhere.

This is not necessarily about the practise of justice itself but what justice is in itself and what it represents. What would justice mean to you if you wished to see it in the society around you? I don't think it's about being twisted, i'm certainly not "normal" by the standard of those around me, but the sense of justice is quite universal even if the subtleties of its practise are somewhat varied across cultures.

I suppose for you I might ask this, and maybe other might wish to consider this:-
Is justice just a tool of the rich within all human societies, and if so, why do we value it? It is clear that you do value it even if you may not believe in societies ability to enforce it, this is evident in your belief in Karma which is essentially putting faith in a higher form of Justice. What do we values about the notion of justice? Is it simply the idea fairness or righteousness, and if so why do we so often seem to fail to achieve this?

If there were justice...

Listen ToMegaTherion, i dont see the idea of life and death it self justice. i cant see justice in religions or societies. every day people dying from poverty, starvations, natural disasters, murders, ignorance, wars, humiliation, illnessو Sigh, even from love!! i mean nothing and NOTHING where i live in this planet showed me that justice do exist but for some few people probably got it by luck. the whole idea of the human being to live his short life which leads him every day to his certain death is not fair!
i dont believe in justice and i stopped believe in god and i hate the idea of this humanity trial with one life chance.
its just my sick opinion anyway

Written by Roro on 27.07.2011 at 21:15

Listen ToMegaTherion, i dont see the idea of life and death it self justice. i cant see justice in religions or societies. every day people dying from poverty, starvations, natural disasters, murders, ignorance, wars, humiliation, illnessو Sigh, even from love!! i mean nothing and NOTHING where i live in this planet showed me that justice do exist but for some few people probably got it by luck. the whole idea of the human being to live his short life which leads him every day to his certain death is not fair!
i dont believe in justice and i stopped believe in god and i hate the idea of this humanity trial with one life chance.
its just my sick opinion anyway

That is certainly a valid point and I agree, these things really do suck, but it misses the point of this thread which is not so much to point out injustice... but to define and nail down what we mean where we say something is just (or unjust), what is missing that makes it unjust in itself?
Don't mind me too much, just trying to drag out a meaning of justice. I don't mean to sound too nosy, but this a good sign i think we are getting closer to a general meaning, because injustice is just as valid as justice... What if i put this to you; is justice really a synonym for fairness and equality? Because it is clear the you feel this thing which we call "injustice" towards all these things mentioned, and I do empathise, I don't like that sort of shit any more than you... but what is it about their situation which makes it unjust?

Written by Zombie on 27.07.2011 at 15:29



If there were justice...

That is the action of justice... one which I agree with I might add, but it misses the point of this discussion. Which is not that justice is being carried out, but what makes his "crimes" warrant that justice be carried out. Not simply that they are wrong, but why they are wrong?

Written by ToMegaTherion on 28.07.2011 at 02:01

Not simply that they are wrong, but why they are wrong?

why they are wrong, hmmm...

well, for starters we need to define the word "wrong", and definition of wrong lies somewhere between the classic "what harms yourself or other people is wrong, other than that its fine" and "god allows this and forbids that"

so, either you're religious or not, both definitions carry almost the same concept, that originally everything is right, you can do everything, as long as it doesnt harm you or others, just like democracy, you're free to do whatever you want, as long as that "act of freedom" you do does not violate the freedom of others, and religiously, almost everything that is forbidden in religions are stuff that harms you or the community.

so, a few non-debatable actions that surely no one can see them as anything but crimes; murder, theft, forgery, rape, torture, usury, deception, ...
and since these crimes are usually committed against others (you can kill yourself but that's a whole different story, usually all what we've mentioned would have a victim other than the perpetrator) so, in order to "make up" for that crime, you need to "balance the equation", since you took something from that victim, you have to give him something in return, or, the victim would commit the same crime against you and it would be only fair.

eg. if a guy steals your stuff, he has to give them back ... or you can steal them back .. if a guy kills your son, you either go kill him... or kill his son (although i personally wouldn't prefer that option as it would be unfair to the kid, but it would be fair for the father as he will feel EXACTLY like the victim felt when they lost their son)

so, justice is a raw expression, it could mean literal justice meaning doing to the guy exactly what he did to you (and sometimes it ain't nice, if a guy rapes me i do not wish to rape him back) ... and in this case justice is achieved through "revenge"

or you could have justice by taking a "compensation" from the perpetrator, for example: a certain amount of money ... and in this case it would be as if you "sold" your right for a fair revenge, and chose "justice" in your own way ... example: a guy killed your son, he gives you a million dollars so you do not testify against him, you think that the million dollars are a fair enough "justice" and you could use the money to buy a house in hawaii and forget the tragedy of losing your son.. (it's a bit immoral if you ask me)

and there are other ways of justice, such as "laws", which are a group of punishments that people agreed upon that they are "fair" for such crimes, and when someone commits a crime against you, you choose to let justice take its course by law enforcement (seems like a civilized way for justice, but its probably the least "just" in them, as some alot of crimes require more severe punishments than in the laws that are adjusted to be more "humane" and "merciful" each passing year, and you end up with a guy slaughtering hundreds of kids and as a "punishment" he gets to spend 10 or 20 years in a warm cosy prison that's better than a 5-star hotel, with all its facilities.

so, as for Mubarak (a specific case) i'm actually unable to imagine a "fair" punishment that would achieve justice, that son of a bitch wasn't just another fat dictator living off the country's wealth and stopping anyone from taking power from him ... he is a sadistic bastard who ruined the lives of eighty five MILLION people for three decades, killed thousands, tortured hundreds of thousands, brought poverty to the country, emptied the land of its resources to his own personal gain, betrayed his people, ... countless crimes really, and each one of those crimes is committed against eighty-five million people ... so, no matter what the court rules, it'll never be enough.

that is, IF the court rules against him, he's sent thousands to unfair military trials, while he gets to appear infront of a normal court, and with almost no physical evidence or a single document that proves his crimes because his associates have been shredding documents at his office for the past SIX MONTHS !!

his trial is set to august 3rd, i bet you my left nut it'll be postponed for 15 - 30 days.

Written by Zombie on 28.07.2011 at 03:42

Written by ToMegaTherion on 28.07.2011 at 02:01

Not simply that they are wrong, but why they are wrong?

why they are wrong, hmmm...

well, for starters we need to define the word "wrong", and definition of wrong lies somewhere between the classic "what harms yourself or other people is wrong, other than that its fine" and "god allows this and forbids that"

so, either you're religious or not, both definitions carry almost the same concept, that originally everything is right, you can do everything, as long as it doesnt harm you or others, just like democracy, you're free to do whatever you want, as long as that "act of freedom" you do does not violate the freedom of others, and religiously, almost everything that is forbidden in religions are stuff that harms you or the community.

so, a few non-debatable actions that surely no one can see them as anything but crimes; murder, theft, forgery, rape, torture, usury, deception, ...
and since these crimes are usually committed against others (you can kill yourself but that's a whole different story, usually all what we've mentioned would have a victim other than the perpetrator) so, in order to "make up" for that crime, you need to "balance the equation", since you took something from that victim, you have to give him something in return, or, the victim would commit the same crime against you and it would be only fair.

eg. if a guy steals your stuff, he has to give them back ... or you can steal them back .. if a guy kills your son, you either go kill him... or kill his son (although i personally wouldn't prefer that option as it would be unfair to the kid, but it would be fair for the father as he will feel EXACTLY like the victim felt when they lost their son)

so, justice is a raw expression, it could mean literal justice meaning doing to the guy exactly what he did to you (and sometimes it ain't nice, if a guy rapes me i do not wish to rape him back) ... and in this case justice is achieved through "revenge"

or you could have justice by taking a "compensation" from the perpetrator, for example: a certain amount of money ... and in this case it would be as if you "sold" your right for a fair revenge, and chose "justice" in your own way ... example: a guy killed your son, he gives you a million dollars so you do not testify against him, you think that the million dollars are a fair enough "justice" and you could use the money to buy a house in hawaii and forget the tragedy of losing your son.. (it's a bit immoral if you ask me)

and there are other ways of justice, such as "laws", which are a group of punishments that people agreed upon that they are "fair" for such crimes, and when someone commits a crime against you, you choose to let justice take its course by law enforcement (seems like a civilized way for justice, but its probably the least "just" in them, as some alot of crimes require more severe punishments than in the laws that are adjusted to be more "humane" and "merciful" each passing year, and you end up with a guy slaughtering hundreds of kids and as a "punishment" he gets to spend 10 or 20 years in a warm cosy prison that's better than a 5-star hotel, with all its facilities.

so, as for Mubarak (a specific case) i'm actually unable to imagine a "fair" punishment that would achieve justice, that son of a bitch wasn't just another fat dictator living off the country's wealth and stopping anyone from taking power from him ... he is a sadistic bastard who ruined the lives of eighty five MILLION people for three decades, killed thousands, tortured hundreds of thousands, brought poverty to the country, emptied the land of its resources to his own personal gain, betrayed his people, ... countless crimes really, and each one of those crimes is committed against eighty-five million people ... so, no matter what the court rules, it'll never be enough.

that is, IF the court rules against him, he's sent thousands to unfair military trials, while he gets to appear infront of a normal court, and with almost no physical evidence or a single document that proves his crimes because his associates have been shredding documents at his office for the past SIX MONTHS !!

his trial is set to august 3rd, i bet you my left nut it'll be postponed for 15 - 30 days.

Thanks for the response Zombie, a well thought out one indeed and one which has presented a number of ideas and conceptions relating to justice, and I think in some ways you touch on many of the issues relating to it and what its meaning and purpose is.
The Harm principle is one articulate quite well by philosopher John Locke in the 17th century. And I agree, and as such crime which strike a clear moral reaction such as murder, rape, torcher, ect. Do bring about strong desires for revenge. Indeed there may be different ways and different kinds of justice. But i say the just because an immoral act has been commited against you does not necessarily give you the right to commit an immoral act against them.

Here is my observations of this discussion to date (This may be completely wrong and please correct me if i am)...
On Justice -
At a basic level it seem that justice is viewed as a means of measuring ones just deserves for some affront or crime (whatever it may be), but many cannot and do not see it occurring in any meaningful way. So many people often turn to higher sometimes metaphysical forms of justice is response to this is hope and faith that people will get what they deserve in the end (Be it religious justice, or karma, or some kind of moral law above and beyond what is visible in society around them). I agree that justice is a cloudy subject, debate has waged on the issue of justice for thousands of years since Plato and Aristotle.
On further observation, justice in all societies tends to favour the wealthy and the powerful. As such its implementation in human society is in some ways a tool for elites to remain free from persecution for their crimes, or at least depending on their crimes, an unbalanced punishment is achieved.
Here is an example for any country or society of this: Suppose two people are found guilty of the same crime and ordered to pay $1 million in damages. Now suppose that the two people have very different levels of income, one earning $30,000 per year, the other earning $100 million per year. How is the punishment for the same crime in any way equal. To the rich man its 1% of his yearly income, to the poor man, he will not pay it for many years and may be sent to prison to help pay it off.

As for Mubarak: No punishment will ever make up for his crimes, there are many like that around the world. But now he is out of power it is time to look to the future and make the society you are in work. The past can hurt, and justice can hurt when it fails, but now you guys have what most of you want... go ahead and use it, MAKE IT WORK!