I have a lot of friends whom listen to progressive music and always say how deep it is. If it is, why so? To me it's just music that doesn't follow the standard scales and in general I don't care about lyrics. What do you think? Is, let's say, Opeth deeper and more sophisticated than Iron Maiden or are they just two different kinds of music?

The "deeper lyrics" thing is kinda silly to me. Progressive bands usually do have deeply philosophical, introspective lyrics, but this does not mean that that is restricted to progressive music. But the music itself is, to me, more sophisticated and "deeper," because progressive bands do not restrict themselves whatsoever to trying anything new, or experimenting with blending different sounds/influences together. Being that open-minded, and creative, is to me quite sophisticated.

Written by Auntie Sahar on 31.07.2011 at 23:25

Progressive bands usually do have deeply philosophical, introspective lyrics, but this does not mean that that is restricted to progressive music.

Exactly, there are for example some very interesting lyrics among bands that play sort of a "simple-minded" genre like Grindcore or thrash (I'm taking in count those I know of that is).
I never think that something is better, more meaninful or deeper just because the music is more complicated to play or it doesn't fall into the common songwrittings.

To me it comes down to the lyrics or concept of the music. The music itself has to be great of course but in the lyrics to me can make or break a band/album. Ill try to explain as best I can. Two of my favorite progressive bands are Ayreon and Nevermore. The concept in Ayreons last two albums, The Human Equation and 01011001, has very deep meaning in both of them. In 01011001 the concept of other life seeding our planet thus spawning Humans in the image of these advanced beings. Then these beings give us our emotions, their knowledge, everything that we are in a sense and then they watched as the human race tore themselves apart through the war to end all wars. This whole concept to me is just like wow. Now bands like Nevermore connect more or so with my beliefs or views on society and other concepts. "When we Pray", "The Final Product", etc all connect to me in a way and shows the world for what it really is. Thats what makes progressive music to me. it is very deep and thoughtful music but you have to have an open mind to appreciate it. ATleast for me thats how Isee it

Really it depends on the band. 'Progressive' is just a term used to describe the technical complexity of the music alone; song-writing is a subjective basis and is impossible to say what is better. Usually the type of bands that stray down the path of prog-oriented music have a lot of experience with song-writing to begin with (take Death's later years for example) and so the correlation between quality song-writing and progressive music is made.

Bands use their music to strike emotions and most of their ideals are expressed through their music and not their lyrics. Stuff such as Anal Cunt is straightforward because their ideals are straightforward while bands like Opeth give more space with their music to let people interpret it on their own accord.

Now with that said I doubt prog metal is inheritently more sophisiticated (there are many prog bands that fail to make it out there because they're just about one thing: technical wankery) than other forms of music. Many doom metal and gothic metal bands are often given the credit of being ''deep'' as well despite the music being less demanding to play compared to other genres of metal. Thrash groups like Exodus also know how to express deep ideals without requiring overly-large quantities of the progressive element. The term ''less is more'' can be used in metal e.g. Nevermore have many great prog-songs but some of their best song-writing on 'Dreaming Neon Black' is down to a simplisitic approach IMO.


TL;DR prog-groups tend to have a high caliber of musicianship that can be a great arsenal for song-writing but seeing that music is subjective and genres convey different emotions I highly doubt progressive music is automatically more meaningful.

Written by TrollandDie on 31.07.2011 at 23:43

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You explained my thoughts better that I could. You're a cool young fella.

I remember Mikeal Akerfeldt said in an interview when asked what sort of genre he would put his music into and he said that he would like it to be considered "good" music.

Progressive to me is just a way of describing a bands music, as all labels we put on music are (death/thrash/black/sludge/etc). Some of the genre definition of prog though are:
- not being restricted by genre classifications
- new, unique sound
- using different scales to achieve a unique sound. (ie. not using the same minor chord progressions as Iron Maiden does in nearly all their songs)

In short though, I think prog can basically be defined as pushing music/a genre of music forward. But, I think the progressive label is sort of pointless. Going off of what Akerfeldt said, there's good music, average music, bad music. You're music doesn't need to be progressive to be generally considered good music, but it typically goes hand in hand.

I almost choked on my food when I read the title to this thread. XD Oh my god. If this isn't trollololing with sarcasm, then I dunno... Progheads give this genre such a bad rep.

Written by Fat & Sassy! on 01.08.2011 at 06:23

I almost choked on my food when I read the title to this thread. XD Oh my god. If this isn't trollololing with sarcasm, then I dunno... Progheads give this genre such a bad rep.

No trollololing with sarcasm, sorry

Certainly Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Pain of Salvation, Dream Theater, and the likes produce more complex music than traditional heavy metal. But honestly Metal is just another genre of popular music (whether we like it or not), thus it is limited by budget and time so there is just so much depth into it.

I am a huge progressive metal fan mostly because of the musicianship, but I would still consider it fairly shallow compared to my classical music passion.

It depends on how you define ''deeper'' . Circus Maximus is a great progressive band, but it doesn't have deep lyrics.

However, if we only focus on music, there's no doubt Prog Metal is way deeper. First, it is more complex and demands a higher musical knowledge than any other genres to appreciate, but also to write. You can't ask Metallica or Iron Maiden to make a good Progressive album. They just can't do it. You can, though, ask Dream Theater to make a thrash metal album and it's probably going to be VERY good (because of their talent).

Screaming SteelUs, you say there are many progheads who are arrogant and pretentious. I might be one of those. Not that I disrespect the Heavy metal fans or the thrash/hardcore fans, but I don't really like metal except Prog. It's too simple for me. I'm used to listening to classical music with very deep and complex melodies, and, except with Prog Metal, I don't find it elsewhere in the Metal scene. Bands such as Haken or Symphony X (I don't want to mention DT, it's too easy :p) have a special way to play with the scales, the rythm and the melodies, and this brings, for someone who analyses the sheet music, much more work than a... devildriver song.

So from the perspective of someone who studies music (forget the lyrics), Prog Metal is deeper - musically - than it's metal brothers.

Yes

I wouldn't say prog is deeper. It may be a little more complex in terms of rythm and occasionally melody, but look at bands like porcupine tree, who are quite simplistic (in comparison)
Prog is just another genre of music, there are more emotional genres, and there are deeper genres.

In general we can't say prog music has deeper meaning than usual stuff. Complex feelings and emotions can be illustrated by complex music, that's what we call progressive, but for other things it's simply unable. Never heard real brutality, aggression and progressiveness in one piece.

No one dared to
Speak of the terrible danger
The hideous ancient warnings
Forged in the void of night

He is risen up
Out of the blackness chaos
The last of the prophets sinister
A sickening monstrous sight

Compared to this:

Falling inside again
This nightmare always the same
Still never enough
Halting at the brink of discovery
Moving into the darkness
Leaking inside to cover up
Dragging me down and under
Entangled and undone at once

Old memories
I'm not in need but wish to know
What are the tragedies
The history behind the walls

Pacing further down
Familiar children's laughter
Dissonant and out of time
And their eyes are dead
Watching myself in a pool of water
Wearing the mask of a ghost
Smeared all across my skin
Rotten earth and insects

As with any music there are bands within the genre that try to be more serious with their lyrics and those who don't give a f**k, or as in this case, who gave a f**k but decided it wasn't metuuul enough and decided to tone down the intelligence a notch. I generally have a hard time connecting to lyrics of progressive music on a personal level, that much is certain.

Well, prog is my favorite genre and I like it because it's one of the rare genres in general which still have a lot of new and interesting stuff to offer. I'm aware, though, that progheads and some arrogant musicians give it a bad name and all, and in some sense it's pretty hipster-ish type of thing (though I think black metal is becoming more hipster every year )
I think it's only more meaningful to the eye. I mean, there's a lot of meaningful bands in other genres of metal, but it seems that in prog the concentration of these bands is greater, they do all those concept and 'thinking' albums etc. But the word is 'SEEMS'. Why? When you look at the prog bands' work in which they're trying to teach us something (such as Shadow Gallery's Tyranny/Room V of Pain Of Salvation's BE), they only tell us stuff that we already know. There isn't anything new to it. Yeah, it's good, but any band can be that good. I've found Iron Maiden even deeper in some lyrics than Opeth (when they aren't cheesy) - they tell me a lot more of human life than Opeth's abstract poetry.
Sorry for my bumpy English today.

It can be very deep and emotional just like any music. Sure, Proggressive music is often "harder" to play and takes alot more time to absorb for the ear, but what it all comes down to is how much soul you put down in the music. It does not matter what genre it is. If the music is sincere enough it does not matter what genre it is, it is still deep, if it has emotional meaning to it. The most proggressive music in the world is meaningless if it has no soul or purpose.

Deeper, yes (musically). More valuable? No. I do enjoy Opeth, Symphony X, Porcupine Tree, Yes and Radiohead, but I also enjoy Maiden, Slayer, Ensiferum, In Flames and so forth. Progressive music tends to be more sophisticated in musical terms, but as a literature professor I fail to see "greater value" in progressive music's lyrics - Opeth's music is, for example, eargasm to me, but their lyrics are just quasi - neoromantic pastiches in most cases. They tend to "try" more sometimes, but the result is almost the same every time. Early In Flames, Dark Tranquillity and Death have equally good lyrics as most prog bands.
Further on, progressive music IMHO is musicaly "deeper" and more complex, but that can be a flaw, with many bands just focusing on showing us how good are they in playing guitar/drums/bass, instead of making good music (looking at you DreamTheater).
For me, it's a matter of chioce. Sometimes, I just want to sit down, pour some drink and listen to "Closer to the edge" from Yes, but sometimes I just want to trash the living sh*t out of my living room with Behemot's "Demigod" .

Well, in some way, progressive is deeper, but if you take any other metal genre, you will find out that it may be as "deep" as prog... It all depends the way you look at that.

Deep is a spatial descriptor. It has nothing to do with music (unless it's referring to pitch, I guess). In any serious discussion, we must be pedantic enough not to use such vague metaphors (though I guess it's not technically a metaphor). Clearly people have wildly different opinions about musical depth in this topic: some connect it to lyrics, others take for granted that "complexity" (whatever that means) and musical skill is deep. If I had to use the word, I would use it to refer to something with a lot of intertextual references to other music and art pieces, creating ambigious meanings with both musical and lyrical elements. It would have nothing to do with technical prowess, but rather tasteful placement of carefully considered elements. So clearly, it's better not to even talk about "deep music."

Meaning, on the other hand, is created in communication. There is no inherent meaning to a piece of music, but rather many listenings with a variety of meanings. (I got the impression that "listenings" are what contemporary musicologists of popular music are talking about, from a handful of articles I read recently.) Meaning is not really subjective, but it's inter-subjective and there's several possible interpretation for any piece. Individual pieces can also acquire new meanings over time, as they become established cultural objects that are analysed and referenced over and over. The Doors' "Celebration Of The Lizard" has a wealth of meaning due to Morrison's character and the historical signifigance of the band, something you couldn't simply determine from a formal analysis of the song at its moment of composition (nevermind that it evolved over time). Therefore it's extremely pointless ask your questions even about specific pieces of music, let alone generalize over entire genres.

I wish I could be more on-topic, but I must refuse to answer the question. Without narrowing it down further, the question is fruitless. Like music, it has too many possible meanings to find any common ground and definitions to start from. This is one of those topics that simply doesn't have a correct answer because it's just too vague and based on gut feeling. Yavanna's post above is a prime example of the empty truisms which are the only answer anyone can honestly give: it's a sensible post, sure, but it isn't actually saying anything at all.

Well said, IronAngel. I tried to add to your statement, but I think you said everything best.

As everyone has the bases covered on the concept of "deeper" or "meaningful", I completely disagree that progheads are the trolls of metal. Have you ever tried to have a conversation about metal with someone who loves thrash? It is the "end all be all" genre to them, and they'll be happy to tell you about it. Or some asshole who thinks everyone is copying Pantera or Black Sabbath? What about Black Metal fans? Just like every crowd in society, Metal will have elitists and none fall in any specific genre the most.

No... more often they are impersonal attempts at philosophical posturing or part of some story/concept.
Just look at Ayreon...

You can find deep/meaningful (relative to listener) lyrics in Pantera's "Good Friends And A Bottle Of Pills" imo

It's all about technical ability well not all the most part of it IMO

http://tubeplus.me/player/1473474/The_Simpsons/season_9/episode_17/Lisa_the_Simpson/%22

It's real short, but in five seconds it fully explains anything with the term 'prog'.

Start at 13:25 to about 13:45.

Written by IronAngel on 01.08.2011 at 15:09

So clearly, it's better not to even talk about "deep music."

Accordingly it should then follow that talk of the opposite, that is "shallow music", is also fruitless, no?

Written by R'Vannith on 02.08.2011 at 11:57

Written by IronAngel on 01.08.2011 at 15:09

So clearly, it's better not to even talk about "deep music."

Accordingly it should then follow that talk of the opposite, that is "shallow music", is also fruitless, no?

Yes, indeed. If someone proposed a serious topic of discussion titled "Is chart pop shallow", I'd give pretty much the same answer.

That's not to say I wouldn't use those words in regular speech and writing. In many contexts, lively language is fine. I write reviews myself, and I use all kinds of adjectives that have nothing to do with sound. But we should be a little stricter in this context, when we're really trying to answer a factual question.

Nice topic.
Progressive is technically more sophisticated.
I think it really depends on what makes it for you. Some people get excited by extreme technicality.
I think one can also describe music with psychics, it also has aesthetics.
It depends really on you and how you react. I can't think about music as waves in the air.

My first substantial forum post on Metal Storm.

I've been a member for quite some time, but I've never had the urge to post on forums until I saw this thread pop up. I feel it has a lot of potential for discussion on not just progressive music, but what makes music subjectively meaningful to different people. That being said, "meaning" in music is just that: entirely subjective. I've had to realize that people listen to music for different reasons--to dance to, to feel like a "thug" to, etc. I, personally, first and foremost listen to music to feel inspired and empowered, to feel palpably touched by the artist(s)' passion, and to be intellectually provoked. (A bad ass groove that forces me to groove with it is also always welcome.)

The reason why I find a progressive style of music deeper and more "meaningful", is because I find more artistry in progressive. Prog artists--typically--are not content with banging out tracks with a catchy riff and chorus that repeat cyclically for exactly two and a half minutes for mass appeal, snappy album writing, and radio-friendly shit. They tend to mold a song that conveys something they feel passionately about. They hook you with instrumental mastery and pull you along through a sweeping song that moves more like a journey rather than a Nascar track. I've found that people who are deeply passionate about music and existence--and who are skilled musicians--tend to be more intelligent and substantial people. They need a complex format to convey their messages, and they aren't afraid to experiment with unique methods. For me, that typically translates into a "deeper" sound.

After saying all of this, there are definitely prog rockers out there who put out extra-long, meandering, directionless shit as a product of tripping balls on mescalin with guitar and synth in-hand, or they crank out bombastic displays of musical masturbation that may be extremely technical and "unique", but usually end up devoid of true passion or substance.

I don't consider progressive a genre, I consider it an element that can span the genre spectrum. Metal just typically contains more progressive sound, because--if you're on this fucking site, I'm sure you agree--Metal has some of the most skilled and passionate musicians out there.


Some artists with a progressive style that I adore:
Tool
Opeth
Novembre
Riverside (and Lunatic Soul)
Agalloch
Green Carnation
Indukti
Isis
Russian Circles
If These Trees Could Talk
Maserati
Meniscus
(I won't be too excessive)

Written by Omnicosm on 03.08.2011 at 01:57

Substantial Post

Wow, very nice post, well thought-out.

I have to say that I agree with you, progressive isn't really a genre, but if you are looking for the type of music you described it is most commonly found in different areas of metal.
Look forward to reading more posts from you in the future.

Written by Introspekrieg on 03.08.2011 at 02:10

Written by Omnicosm on 03.08.2011 at 01:57

Substantial Post

Wow, very nice post, well thought-out.

I have to say that I agree with you, progressive isn't really a genre, but if you are looking for the type of music you described it is most commonly found in different areas of metal.
Look forward to reading more posts from you in the future.

Hey, thanks a lot, man. I appreciate it. I look forward to being more involved.