Written by Rasputin on 02.10.2014 at 23:59

Watched it, interesting.

This is very interesting too, from your "normal" feminists

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/unlearning-patriarchal-lies/

I read it expecting some crazy ranting. I left feeling disappointed.

Just what about that did you find objectionable?

^ I was thinking the same thing. But maybe he just thinks it's interesting and supports it. Because it is plain common sense to me.

Ooops, wrong link. When I find the other one, I will post it.

I've been trying to wrap my head around this Gamergate bullshit and Anita Sarkeesian. I think it is a good example of both why feminism is needed and how unintelligent self-proclaimed feminists do harm to the cause. There is no question that Sarkeesian is full of shit, and it's not that her videos reveal any misogyny worth mentioning; but the reaction against them, ironically, does. It doesn't help that all reasonable arguments get dragged into ideological questions of what "side" you're on. It should really only be a question of whether or not you have a point.

Written by IronAngel on 16.10.2014 at 19:57

I've been trying to wrap my head around this Gamergate bullshit and Anita Sarkeesian.

That bitch (to use some scholarly feminist terminology) is the lesser of two evils, in the simplest way of putting it. Yeah, threatening to shoot up a school is bad (and that could be an empty threat of for all we know or even fabricated completely) but to be honest if you're going to be whack as fuck you don't really deserve to have a prominent voice in any industry.

The thing that leads me to believe it honestly might be fabricated by her to seem like the victim of THE PATRIARCHY is that I doubt even if someone did shoot up a school she would say "ok, I've realized the error of my ways, I'm gonna stop being a retard now". So the people who threatened that are really not accomplishing much even if they were to go through with their plans. Although I guess "they" did accomplish getting her to not give some dumbass speech, but maybe that's what she wanted all along, so she could be the poor victim and get all the sympathy. Who knows.

The problem is blaming this mystical patriarchy for everything, the mythological white male privilege, perceived rape culture and the default red herring of victim blaming if you even suggest that the victim contributed to its victimization.

On one side you want to be equal and allegedly portray this idea that you are fighting for the rights of both sexes, but every time sometime displeases you, it is the fault of the patriarchy. The entire concept is a straw man, where you create this illusion that men either as a cohesive unit (conspiracy level) or individually perpetuate and feed this Patriarchy which is defined as a series of micro aggressions or most men, as a result of white male privilege that does not exist. The only people who have this privilege are the wealthy, average male does not have shit. So they begin to deconstruct, movies, video games, shows and just further drive this machinery that alienates males. Not to mention the "Eye Rape" craze that went on for a while, and yesallmen bullshit. Feminists, at least the ones that I see in college live in this world of theory, where everything is theory that becomes a fact, and when you are faced with a challenge, you use the cope out of patriarchy or whatever other feminist jargon suits you. I mean, these are the same females who claim to be strong and independent when it suits them, but when that is challenged then they want special treatment. One inherent thing among all feminists, the moderates and radicals, is this notion that they can never, ever be wrong for anything and they are never responsible for anything, no matter how stupid their choices are. Once you slap the etiquette of "victim" in the Western Society, especially the USA you are somehow above and beyond reproach, and the factors that contributed to your trauma can never and should never be examined. I read something in Psychology about this, it is an interesting phenomena. While I agree that all women should be free to do what they want with their bodies, and go wherever and whenever they please, at the same time I am aware that at this current junction it is rather impossible, since even myself as a male I am not able to go everywhere and do what I want and where I want without serious issues that would arise from it. Once they start using logic and reason instead of emotionally driven arguments that shut down any conversation, much like religious people have a tendency to do, there will be no progress, and there will be a greater rift between the sexes. The other thing is, continuing to perpetuate the same misguided ideology will just create more victims.

You make some good points (though you also make some indefensible generalisations about victimisation etc.), but I think you miss the point of "patriarchy"; patriarchy, such as it is, is not something all men are in on or contribute to. It is a structure, a discourse, an assumption which places certain men - "patriarchs" - in a privileged or hegemonous position in society. Not all men are patriarchs, and every individual in a society - man, woman, of whatever social status - is defined somehow in relation to the patriarchy. A good feminist knows this. The situations of men and women aren't by no means the same in society, but they're both conditioned in various specific ways by surrounding power structures, norms, gender discourse or whatever. This perspective was fruitfully used in an article on bachelor sons of patrician families in Renaissance Florence by I-don't-remember-who. My point is, we can talk about the patriarchy but it doesn't mean a war of individual men (or even Men as a category) against women; it means a certain social order which imposes certain norms and expectations on both men and women (it's hardly easy or optional for the son of a wealthy family to adopt the restricting role of a patriarch, for example). I don't think the patriarchy is some scary bogey-man that needs to be pulled out at every juncture, but it is good to be aware of these historical structures that still affect the way we're socialised.

I don't know just how accurate or how useful it is as a concept for analysing modern society, but it's cerainly applicable for a historian like myself. But, to be fair, I don't think modern gender studies really rely on the concept as much as, say, in the heyday of the 70s. In any case, it needs to be qualified.

Written by IronAngel on 17.10.2014 at 22:09

You make some good points (though you also make some indefensible generalisations about victimisation etc.), but I think you miss the point of "patriarchy"; patriarchy, such as it is, is not something all men are in on or contribute to. It is a structure, a discourse, an assumption which places certain men - "patriarchs" - in a privileged or hegemonous position in society. Not all men are patriarchs, and every individual in a society - man, woman, of whatever social status - is defined somehow in relation to the patriarchy. A good feminist knows this. The situations of men and women aren't by no means the same in society, but they're both conditioned in various specific ways by surrounding power structures, norms, gender discourse or whatever. This perspective was fruitfully used in an article on bachelor sons of patrician families in Renaissance Florence by I-don't-remember-who. My point is, we can talk about the patriarchy but it doesn't mean a war of individual men (or even Men as a category) against women; it means a certain social order which imposes certain norms and expectations on both men and women (it's hardly easy or optional for the son of a wealthy family to adopt the restricting role of a patriarch, for example). I don't think the patriarchy is some scary bogey-man that needs to be pulled out at every juncture, but it is good to be aware of these historical structures that still affect the way we're socialised.

I don't know just how accurate or how useful it is as a concept for analysing modern society, but it's cerainly applicable for a historian like myself. But, to be fair, I don't think modern gender studies really rely on the concept as much as, say, in the heyday of the 70s. In any case, it needs to be qualified.

I'm not making generalizations, I am just using the experiences I had when discussing with various feminists from the USA. I just had a huge debate two weeks ago in which I got deleted from the group because I did not contribute to their pity party. One of the members was recounting her tale how she almost got attacked and she escaped, and when she called the Cops, the Cops said that they could not do much for her, since no physical contact was made, the guy was gone and they only have her word against his. She called this Rape Culture and perfect example of Patriarchy. I wondered would she have said the same thing if the police officers were female and told her the same thing. While I do believe her that the incident almost happened, at the same time we have to use evidence to prove something, but what I see that is happening more and more, especially now on College campuses in the USA (check California) is this notion that if a female reports that she was raped or assaulted that is fool proof and could not and should not be questioned. So what in fact they are doing, is trying to coerce a change in legislation where you could accuse anyone of anything with no evidence, and that your words are truth and that's that. I believe I used this example time and time again in discussions with them (when you can have a discussion that does not turn into, feminist jargon fest of "slut shaming" "victim blaming" "misogyny") when you have two intoxicated individuals having sex. Morning comes, she's not happy with her choice, and she accuses him of raping her. There are numerous cases where innocent men were sentenced to prison for something they did not commit. What this alerts me too, is giving a female, and only a female (since a man stating he was raped by a woman is dismissed and laughed at) has the sole right to dictate if something was rape just because she can. This is why I cringe when I hear men getting arrested and sentenced with no evidence, no forensic evidence to speak off. Yeah, I had a sex with a guy last week, he pissed me off, so I'm going to say he raped me, and boom, the guy is done. I'm not the one who has a wrong view on "Patriarchy" that is not my jargon, I'm just pointing out what I perceived over several years, and I already know ahead where the discussion ends on any of these topics. That is a big issue. While I agree with your definition of what patriarchy may be, or may have been, I doubt the feminists would see it as such. You know, for a group who's allegedly willing to discuss things, they really do not like to communicate with anyone who uses logic and reason that is contrary to their emotion fueled theories. So, going back to my story, for the next 20 posts, they ranted and raved about it, and threw a pity party, and the only thing I asked was how will she try to prevent something from happening again. They got pissed of course, told me I was "victim blaming" and told me that there was no lesson to be learned here, that she was not responsible for anything and that the patriarchy was. And that is exactly what I am talking about. Another interesting thing I found out was that what I say depends on my gender. One time I told my female friend to join the group and type what I tell her to type, and surprisingly she did not get banned, however, the feminists formed up and tried to "correct" her way of thinking which was massively influenced by the patriarchy.

Ultimately, what happens is that even if you have the feminists who are normal and logical, they are rarely heard, because their voices are drowned in a sea of nonsense. And also, as the years go buy, I see that the feminist movement is becoming more militant, and that they themselves continue to utilize "micro aggressions" and sometimes full on verbal assault because they disagree and are unwilling to debate. What we will find happening, and it is happening right now, is the fact that feminism on top of shooting itself in the foot, and being a detriment for the whole equality movement and women rights, is ostracizing males and continues to fuel a gender/sex war. They claim they are about equality and that they care about men, but every time there is a conference on male issues, they threaten with violence and even terrorism. I think most recently there was an issue in Detroit or someplace like that, where the meeting had to be cancelled since the feminists had a problem with that and the conference people got death threats and bomb threats. In my eyes, feminism became a monster, and went way off the path of actual equality, and I think that the old feminists from 1900's and beyond, could not believe what kind of a disaster it resulted in. I am pro women rights, just not feminism if that makes any sense to you.

Again, I agree with you, but you're still generalising. Based on your own experience or not, things like "I doubt the feminists would see it as such" and "one inherent thing among all feminists --- is this notion that they can never, ever be wrong for anything and they are never responsible for anything" are pretty gross generalisations. I'm not even going to go down the tired road of "but this isn't what feminism and good feminists are about"; even without any argument to the contrary, the polemic and polarising nature of such sweeping statements should be obvious. I mean, I definitely identify as a feminist, but I don't recognise myself in your description (except that I'm never wrong, ha). I have been caught in just the kind of bullshit debates on Facebook as you describe; not because I was "less" feminist than my opponent but because I challenged her dogmatic generalisations and tried to actually focus on the specific issue she raised. That's one problem in these debates: recourse to big ideological stances and theories and not a rigid focus specifics. Individual cases are hand-waved as belonging to some general trend ("patriarchy" or "rape-culture") instead of investigating what's wrong with this individual case, if anything.

What you're describing isn't somehow inherent to feminism, I think. It has more to to do with social media, with every uneducated, unintelligent pleb with a righteous anger suddenly having the means to express themselves; indeed, everyone is expected to have an opinion and take a stance on big issues, whether they have the capacity or not. We live in an era of social justice warriors. Mob mentality is everywhere on the internet, among men and women alike, and god forbid you try to have a reasonable conversation in a Facebook group or YouTube comments on anything even slightly unorthodox - the rights of pedophiles, animals, multiculturalism, whatever.

I don't know if you've read it, but Caitlin Moran's recent best-seller, How to Be a Woman, was a pretty level-headed, funny and perceptive expression of feminism. There was no mention of "rape culture", just a very practical look at some of the mundane, every-day issues that women have to deal with in their lives. In her opinion, there's no reason to be afraid of the word "feminism" since it has nothing to do with the way it's being wielded by internet social justice warriors. I agree with her that women aren't systematically or maliciously, or at all, oppressed by men, but there are still plenty of structures and just small, practical things that put women in a more difficult position (I should know, watching my wife making a career in the still male-dominated, traditional academia), and plenty of taboos and norms that make it difficult to know just how to become a woman. (Though growing up to be a man has its difficulties, too; Moran's is a semiautobiography, so obviously that's not her focus.) I mean, this myth that feminism "nowadays" is corrupt and twisted and equals the BS you see on YouTube is just not true; there's plenty of good feminist literature out there.

Written by Rasputin on 18.10.2014 at 00:41

Ultimately, what happens is that even if you have the feminists who are normal and logical, they are rarely heard, because their voices are drowned in a sea of nonsense. And also, as the years go buy, I see that the feminist movement is becoming more militant, and that they themselves continue to utilize "micro aggressions" and sometimes full on verbal assault because they disagree and are unwilling to debate. What we will find happening, and it is happening right now, is the fact that feminism on top of shooting itself in the foot, and being a detriment for the whole equality movement and women rights, is ostracizing males and continues to fuel a gender/sex war. They claim they are about equality and that they care about men, but every time there is a conference on male issues, they threaten with violence and even terrorism. I think most recently there was an issue in Detroit or someplace like that, where the meeting had to be cancelled since the feminists had a problem with that and the conference people got death threats and bomb threats. In my eyes, feminism became a monster, and went way off the path of actual equality, and I think that the old feminists from 1900's and beyond, could not believe what kind of a disaster it resulted in. I am pro women rights, just not feminism if that makes any sense to you.

Seen a few mans trash talking you on this site and probably for other reasons but you definitely aren't dumb about some things you bring up some good points here. I don't think you can really be pro womens right and anti feminist though. Like IronAngel said (and it becomes tiresome to repeat) feminism isn't about the retards who don't listen to logic and rely on jargon that claims the patriarchy is out to get them in every situation. But I get what you're saying. Being against the stubborn, militant, hypocritical, ignorant type feminists is all good with me

I agree with you. And now I didn't hear about that book. I will check it out. I think because of that mob mentality is why the feminism is in stagnation as is actually retrograding. While there may be great literature there, and level headed feminists, it is hard to find them. Every year I go to academic conferences and meet hundreds of women, and one thing that I keep noticing, regardless of the education level, is the lack of critical thinking outside of their field. And I keep listening to PhD students, Professors and Master level students go into this circular argument where the individuality of the situation you mention is not addressed, and huffingtonpost and bitchmedia and few other places are utilized and glorified exclusively, on top of utilizing the preapproved feminist theory such as Mary Wollstonecraft, Betty Friedan and few others.

Don't you think that the internet has more influence over people as a whole? I mean, while do not disagree that there are people out there that are feminists that want equality and are above this BS jargon that keeps getting thrown around, the mob rule is overwhelming. I think because of these internet warriors is why we have an issue in the first place, where they create a gender war and start thriving on conflict.

Written by Mattybu on 18.10.2014 at 19:10

Written by Rasputin on 18.10.2014 at 00:41

Ultimately, what happens is that even if you have the feminists who are normal and logical, they are rarely heard, because their voices are drowned in a sea of nonsense. And also, as the years go buy, I see that the feminist movement is becoming more militant, and that they themselves continue to utilize "micro aggressions" and sometimes full on verbal assault because they disagree and are unwilling to debate. What we will find happening, and it is happening right now, is the fact that feminism on top of shooting itself in the foot, and being a detriment for the whole equality movement and women rights, is ostracizing males and continues to fuel a gender/sex war. They claim they are about equality and that they care about men, but every time there is a conference on male issues, they threaten with violence and even terrorism. I think most recently there was an issue in Detroit or someplace like that, where the meeting had to be cancelled since the feminists had a problem with that and the conference people got death threats and bomb threats. In my eyes, feminism became a monster, and went way off the path of actual equality, and I think that the old feminists from 1900's and beyond, could not believe what kind of a disaster it resulted in. I am pro women rights, just not feminism if that makes any sense to you.

Seen a few mans trash talking you on this site and probably for other reasons but you definitely aren't dumb about some things you bring up some good points here. I don't think you can really be pro womens right and anti feminist though. Like IronAngel said (and it becomes tiresome to repeat) feminism isn't about the retards who don't listen to logic and rely on jargon that claims the patriarchy is out to get them in every situation. But I get what you're saying. Being against the stubborn, militant, hypocritical, ignorant type feminists is all good with me

Oh yeah, I have a little fan base here for quite some time. Let's say my views are a tad bit radical, and let's assume that I just don't care and say whatever I want. People think that whatever is said here is true, and that the person who's saying it, is serious. I love internet because of that reason. So many roles to play.

I think I can, since I don't think that those two terms are not synonyms anymore, at least if we are to trust the internet. So until those stubborn, militant, hypocritical and ignorant type feminists are gone...I will be an anti-feminist...which means, a fuckload of time

Written by Rasputin on 18.10.2014 at 19:21

Oh yeah, I have a little fan base here for quite some time. Let's say my views are a tad bit radical, and let's assume that I just don't care and say whatever I want. People think that whatever is said here is true, and that the person who's saying it, is serious. I love internet because of that reason. So many roles to play.

I think I can, since I don't think that those two terms are not synonyms anymore, at least if we are to trust the internet. So until those stubborn, militant, hypocritical and ignorant type feminists are gone...I will be an anti-feminist...which means, a fuckload of time

Well, I like it when people speak their mind. Even if it is bullshit, then you get a chance to tell them they're saying bullshit, and it's interesting to hear honest perspectives as opposed to the same stuff over and over.

As far as the terminology goes I look at it like the word "literally". People have misused the word "literally" so much nowadays that, as defined by the dictionary it can actually mean "figuratively". But when someone says "literally", I assume they mean the original meaning. So I sort of relate it to feminism in that way. Yes many members of the group have warped the goals/ideology, but at the same time when I hear someone is a feminist I will still give them some chance, because they're not all bad. But again I get what you're saying.

The ones that get attention on the internet are usually bad though

Written by Mattybu on 18.10.2014 at 19:29

Written by Rasputin on 18.10.2014 at 19:21

Oh yeah, I have a little fan base here for quite some time. Let's say my views are a tad bit radical, and let's assume that I just don't care and say whatever I want. People think that whatever is said here is true, and that the person who's saying it, is serious. I love internet because of that reason. So many roles to play.

I think I can, since I don't think that those two terms are not synonyms anymore, at least if we are to trust the internet. So until those stubborn, militant, hypocritical and ignorant type feminists are gone...I will be an anti-feminist...which means, a fuckload of time

Well, I like it when people speak their mind. Even if it is bullshit, then you get a chance to tell them they're saying bullshit, and it's interesting to hear honest perspectives as opposed to the same stuff over and over.

As far as the terminology goes I look at it like the word "literally". People have misused the word "literally" so much nowadays that, as defined by the dictionary it can actually mean "figuratively". But when someone says "literally", I assume they mean the original meaning. So I sort of relate it to feminism in that way. Yes many members of the group have warped the goals/ideology, but at the same time when I hear someone is a feminist I will still give them some chance, because they're not all bad. But again I get what you're saying.

The ones that get attention on the internet are usually bad though

I would support Equalism, without the gender warfare and bullshit from either side. I find it interesting that there is very little dialogue going on, there is only finger pointing (mostly done by female actually since the guys are "i don't give a fuck" for the most part)

Well, what can I say...I'm a bad, bad man...when I want to be

So yeah. Okay. Let's not call it 'feminism' anymore. But I hope I do not need to stress that there still is a huge problem with equality.
And yes; for both male and female there are problems that coexist because of the other. Some men are now frightened of women who stand up for themselves. Still there are a lot of women who get death threats just because of a blog about problems they encounter in their life just because of their gender. So first it was Anita, now it is Felicia Day. And there are many others.

Please read this: http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate
And this: http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/10/23/3583347/felicia-day-gamergate/

I am getting tired of this throwing of shit to every other group of people that says they're being discriminated. If they are, then for god's sake, let's talk. What is so hard about listening to each other? This stuff is still happening a lot. And yes, for both genders. But it's real. Is it so hard to admit that? I am really not surprised there are some women who've gotten sick of men by now. Because I too was surprised at what some men just say without hesitation, without any sign of thought about it. I didn't think it happened so often, but it does. If I would get shit over me day after day because of some birds flying over the place all the time, I would start to hate birds too.
But let's not feel offended for something you didn't do. If you don't think you've offended someone, then don't be upset. But it does need some thought, in my opinion. This is something beneath the surface that needs to be dealt with. It needs awareness.

I've read some blogs (in Dutch, so no use posting them here) of women being discriminated in horrible ways. Jokes about rape. Things I read and think 'What the FUCK are these people? Why is this happening?' I am really disappointed in society. This shit just needs to stop. Can't we just acknowledge there are problems instead of denying them?

Maybe I am making things too big. But I don't see that as a problem. Let it be big. Because this really needs to be talked about. If people here support equalism, then let's do this!

I think this needs way more attention than it is getting right now. It is the only way to get this to a higher level and debate. More people should talk about this. How is it happening that women get death threats and don't even dare to leave their house anymore because of some things they said online?

By the way, where have all the women that once posted in this thread gone?

Written by Twilight on 24.10.2014 at 00:05

So yeah. Okay. Let's not call it 'feminism' anymore. But I hope I do not need to stress that there still is a huge problem with equality.
And yes; for both male and female there are problems that coexist because of the other. Some men are now frightened of women who stand up for themselves. Still there are a lot of women who get death threats just because of a blog about problems they encounter in their life just because of their gender. So first it was Anita, now it is Felicia Day. And there are many others.

Please read this: http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate
And this: http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/10/23/3583347/felicia-day-gamergate/

I am getting tired of this throwing of shit to every other group of people that says they're being discriminated. If they are, then for god's sake, let's talk. What is so hard about listening to each other? This stuff is still happening a lot. And yes, for both genders. But it's real. Is it so hard to admit that? I am really not surprised there are some women who've gotten sick of men by now. Because I too was surprised at what some men just say without hesitation, without any sign of thought about it. I didn't think it happened so often, but it does. If I would get shit over me day after day because of some birds flying over the place all the time, I would start to hate birds too.
But let's not feel offended for something you didn't do. If you don't think you've offended someone, then don't be upset. But it does need some thought, in my opinion. This is something beneath the surface that needs to be dealt with. It needs awareness.

I've read some blogs (in Dutch, so no use posting them here) of women being discriminated in horrible ways. Jokes about rape. Things I read and think 'What the FUCK are these people? Why is this happening?' I am really disappointed in society. This shit just needs to stop. Can't we just acknowledge there are problems instead of denying them?

Maybe I am making things too big. But I don't see that as a problem. Let it be big. Because this really needs to be talked about. If people here support equalism, then let's do this!

I think this needs way more attention than it is getting right now. It is the only way to get this to a higher level and debate. More people should talk about this. How is it happening that women get death threats and don't even dare to leave their house anymore because of some things they said online?

By the way, where have all the women that once posted in this thread gone?

I think you are expecting a miracle. In this day and age, with every chance of communication being enhanced and being readily available, we are more silent then ever. While I agree that we should call it "equalism" I doubt the feminists will agree with that, and honestly, you can name it however you want at this point, no one is listening anymore, because every group wants everything now and every group is playing the political game of "I'm more oppressed, I am a greater victim." We have too many followers, and not enough leaders, at least not with common sense. Every side wants something, without realizing or considering the issue of the other. I gave numerous examples of instances when in this case feminist just don't want to talk. As long as you agree with them 100% it is all good, you pose a serious question for pondering, and it's an all out war. The shit will not stop, because most of the bridges were burned long ago. And as far as the attention goes, I think even the people who are for many changes and willing to discuss are burnt out, because of constant bombarding. I am always willing to talk, and discuss stuff, but as it was noticed I am not delicate at that, I am a dick, but an honest dick when I want to be.

And I'm going to go misogyny mode here and say, "They're probably making a sandwich." Just kidding.

So, what exactly is it that you want to discuss, what particular issue?

Written by Rasputin on 25.10.2014 at 06:58
And I'm going to go misogyny mode here and say, "They're probably making a sandwich." Just kidding.

Well, anyone can just happen to make a sandwich for him or herself, right? No harm in that.

I guess I am expecting a miracle, because most people don't really want to change, unfortunately. I am not sure about the whole terminology, but honestly I don't care how it is called. For me it is just called common sense. And it comes down to very simple things. And to really listen to people. For example, it's sometimes the small seemingly harmless but degrading comments guys can say to women. And of course, this can happen the other way around too. I am not sure if I really want to discuss a particular issue, I'd prefer to just ask people to consider this. Sometimes it can be seen as a joke, but one always has to take into account how the other person feels about this. I am not pleading for a 'always-consider-the-feelings', but some things can really be considered.

A comparable situation: Let me tell you about this Dutch phenomenon called 'Zwarte Piet' ('Black Pete' or 'Black face'). It is part of an annual celebration called 'Sinterklaas' and is a bit similar to Christmas. This is what they look like. (Note that these are all dressed up white folks, and that this kind of portrayal of native African people has already been a taboo for quite some time) Now most of you who live in some other country than the Netherlands might think very different things about this. But in the past few years more and more Dutch people realized that this fictive person is quite racist (Something people from outside the Netherlands noticed from the first moment they saw this). There is now a growing group of people who want to change this. But this is retaliated by others who love the tradition and don't think it is racist at all.
But this is what I mean. There are quite a lot of people who are really offended by this thing, yet others are saying that it isn't meant offensive at all. They are never considering the effect of this tradition to people who feel obviously offended by it. I think this is quite egocentric and not considerate at all. A society could also just change some things of this tradition and make everyone happy again. Yet these suggestions for change caused people to become extremely angry, threatening people with death, suggesting they should just leave the country if they don't like it, etcetera.

This is the same with many other kinds of discrimination. It just became this way gradually over a very long period of time and people find it hard to change these things. For example, when a Dutch couple decides to buy a house and the woman is the one who is paying and arranging everything, it is still the male half of the couple who receives all of the communication. Just by tradition. It has always been this way. This can even happen when the man explicitly mentions that he does not want to receive these things. For some reason or another the male keeps being seen as the head of the household, the one who earns all the money to feed his wife and children. Incredibly based on tradition.

Another great example is that women still do not get equal pay for equal work. I already posted this link earlier, but here it is again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsB1e-1BB4Y
This is still true even in almost every first world country. Here in the Netherlands they have made laws to fight this, yet it still happens. I am not really able to grasp why this is, how someone in their right mind can just go through with this kind of thing without feeling any kind of regret.

Same thing is happening with this gamer gate thing. Some guys (most likely not a very large group) are somehow really afraid that these women who they are threatening want to change the way games are made forever and always. Also based on tradition, because throughout the small history that games have, they have almost always been made by men. And that has also been the primary target audience. But this has already been changing for almost a decade. I am not sure Anita Sarkeesian is right in everything she says, but I think there are some good points to consider. And if she isn't right, she still does not deserve all the bizarre threats she received up until now. And as I said before, she is far from the only one receiving these death (and rape) threats.

I don't know what particular issue I'd really like to discuss. Maybe that this really can be changed, if people just genuinely want it? I am not sure if it is true about these bridges you mention. Why do you think most bridges were burned long ago? What bridges are you talking about exactly? Because what I think should happen is just this little bit of change in awareness. That when someone is discriminated other people don't shy away but say something. I've noticed I am far from the only one who wants this. But I don't think this will happen overnight or in a few years. It cannot be changed with a protest. This is something that so many cultures have as a basis. And maybe what I'd like to see happening is a realization among people in first world countries that even in their own countries inequalities still exist. Many people believe that they are living in a free country where everyone is treated equal, which apparently is not true, unfortunately.

Maybe there is a game being played for politicians to receive some kind of fund for their cause, but aside from that I do not really believe in this political game you mention. I think one can be a supporter of them all at the same time. It doesn't take so much energy, just some awareness and a change in mindset. You don't need to be at the front of a protest to show your dedication. Fortunately, one can do this at his computer right now almost just as easy.

It is hard to change a single person, let alone a culture. I can see your points when it comes to the Dutch tradition, however, if the intent or the make up, has nothing to do with slavery and something like that, I don't see a real problem there. I'm not familiar with the history of Netherlands, but were they at a certain point slave traders? What would happen if black people painted their faces white, would that be racist? I think this trend, while being out in the openly so overt is bound to be attacked, unlike the covert pieces of African clothing, hair style, jewelry and such. I notice in the USA a massive influence of the tribal stuff from the South, with ear gauges and body scarification and modification. That got absorbed quite easy, and it has nothing to do with the white people or their culture. So I don;t know. I guess we have to go for intent here, but that is where we have an issue. In recent years the policies have changed to reflected how someone feels and forgets intent. For instance, at the workplace, you give someone a hug, it does not matter if your intentions were friendly, what only matters is if person got offended or not. We live in a world governed by feelings and emotions not logic and reason. I think that is a direct influence of the feminist movement. So that leaves the majority of the discourse in the emotional/feeling arena where you cannot fight it, and that is how a culture is set up, it is a belief and emotion and henceforth harder to change.

You see, I have no problem with gender roles in certain instances. I have a huge problem with that getting completely destroyed, and creating from two sexes one sex and calling it "IT." In USA we have more and more males with feminine features, clothing, thinking and reasoning, and I find that disturbing. Here it almost seems that there is an open war on Y chromosome. This is where a large portion of the battle occurs. Feminists speak off "equality" and they are correlating it with sameness, and that just wont fly. While we should have equal rights, we are not equal or the same. We are governed by different hormones, different thinking process, different body and muscle mass, and honestly, I think each gender/sex compliments one another. What I see on one side is this bashing of males and double standards. It is not alright for a male to raise his voice and to be strong, because the females can be frightened, yet at the same token when the women scream and start acting more like a male than a female, then it is all good. Another interesting observation I made with radical feminism, is this hatred towards males and at the same time emulating behavior and look of a male. But unfortunately, all of these things I speak off, are not mentioned or allowed to be discussed, and like you said, people wont change.

I think the entire argument over the equality could've been resolved sooner, like the issue of the same sex marriage in the USA, if in the second instance there was a bill for domestic partnership instead of marriage, and in the first instance, if certain roles were altered slightly, but leaving the functioning unit of a family structure operational. I am one of those people who has no problem with women working, having a career and all that, however, I am old school, and I believe that a male needs to be the head of the household since it is in the structure of a true male to be dominant, it is as much biology as it is nurture.

i also agree that she should not have been threatened, but people get threatened by people all the time, this issue with males versus females is no different, and any other instance is no different. I mentioned before about the all male conference that the feminists threatened to blow up, and were causing ruckus. That's another thing. You want equality, you want to be treated the same, alright, you start being a disrespecting and attacking bitch, you'll get slapped like one. Women are not these pristine little innocent flowers that are easily broken, so they want equality, we give them equality, which means, next time there is a divorce, she does not get the majority of the house and money, does not get first dibs on kids, does not get reduced sentences for murder, homicide and other violations, does not get the benefit of a doubt during a domestic disturbance and so on and so forth. This is another issue that is not discussed. Feminists refuse to acknowledge that they themselves have privileges of their gender as well even when you point it out to them. I'm seeing several of these cases where Teachers had sex with underage students, all of the males got branded and got in huge trouble, with the females it was a mixed bag, where some got reduced sentences.

I have a slight issue accepting that the women get less pay. I watched the video and it looks interesting, but I am looking at it from mere economical and financial standpoint. If you have a group of people, in this case females that get paid less then men for the same job, why doesn't everyone just hire females and fire all the males, that way you would have equal pay for all females in a sense, and an insane profit. This kind of reminds me of that rape statistic that 1 in 5 females will get raped in their lifetime and that is such a twisted statistic that I do not know where to start.

These are some issues I chose to discuss, feel free to let me know what you think, even if you disagree with me. And let's continue keeping it civil, because this is nice in comparison to other instances where these issues are raised

Written by Twilight on 25.10.2014 at 23:37

There are quite a lot of people who are really offended by this thing

Since when is 17% quite a lot?

^ I guess because I'm involved in this, it is a bit hard for me to see the bigger picture. I wasn't aware of that statistic. I guess perspective is anything. But it was just a mere comparison, and while 17% of 16 million is still quite a lot, it does not make a difference for what I wanted to say with it.

As for Rasputin's response; I will reply later, when I have a bit more spare time.

Written by Twilight on 26.10.2014 at 17:34

^ I guess because I'm involved in this, it is a bit hard for me to see the bigger picture. I wasn't aware of that statistic. I guess perspective is anything. But it was just a mere comparison, and while 17% of 16 million is still quite a lot, it does not make a difference for what I wanted to say with it.

As for Rasputin's response; I will reply later, when I have a bit more spare time.

well disagree 17% is not much as % even as number, but many people have no own opinium and many ppl just say because someone who is some kind a leader says , 40% + is a lot -- where you need to make some law, like referendum about hmmm Euro 17% vote No, 73% Yes. that 17 wont make
Scotand where was close 55% stay 45% not stay , those are BOG numbers in both sides

^ Oh God, no. Please don't continue on this. It was just an example. Please improve your reading skills.

Written by Rasputin on 26.10.2014 at 16:36

It is hard to change a single person, let alone a culture. I can see your points when it comes to the Dutch tradition, however, if the intent or the make up, has nothing to do with slavery and something like that, I don't see a real problem there. I'm not familiar with the history of Netherlands, but were they at a certain point slave traders? What would happen if black people painted their faces white, would that be racist?

I am not sure, this is kind of hypothetical so I don't really know the answer to this. This might be considered racist too, yes. But since the white/caucasian race has always somehow acted as the superior race - looking at the Dutch slavetrading history, it is only logical to conclude that hispanic and african people are offended by this.

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I think this trend, while being out in the openly so overt is bound to be attacked, unlike the covert pieces of African clothing, hair style, jewelry and such. I notice in the USA a massive influence of the tribal stuff from the South, with ear gauges and body scarification and modification. That got absorbed quite easy, and it has nothing to do with the white people or their culture. So I don;t know. I guess we have to go for intent here, but that is where we have an issue. In recent years the policies have changed to reflected how someone feels and forgets intent. For instance, at the workplace, you give someone a hug, it does not matter if your intentions were friendly, what only matters is if person got offended or not. We live in a world governed by feelings and emotions not logic and reason. I think that is a direct influence of the feminist movement. So that leaves the majority of the discourse in the emotional/feeling arena where you cannot fight it, and that is how a culture is set up, it is a belief and emotion and henceforth harder to change.

While I agree on the emotional arena which isn't really a good place for discussion, I do not entirely agree with you on the intent-part. It is quite a strange problem we have here. Intent can be good and friendly, but it might be received not as friendly. This is something that varies with every personality. So it is hard to discuss this as a general matter, but I think this is where human empathy comes in. I mean, we all have this quality, so why not use it? I agree that we shouldn't let emotion govern everything we do, but if someone takes offensive in something that I do, my first reaction is usually 'But why is that?' Just talking about these issues can already be enough in most of the cases.
Unfortunately, there are also many cases in which a degrading comment is disguised as something that can also be perceived as a positive remark. This can often be distinguished by its sarcastic or aggressive tone. For example, a comment with a sexist tone directed at a woman who is just passing by. There is almost no woman who is charmed by these kind of things, yet they keep happening. And if the target of the comment has a cold answer in return, she often gets things thrown toward her like 'Hey, I was just giving you a good comment!' or something similar. Even when the starting comment had very sexist tones.
I am not sure what you think about this, but there are many people who would say 'ah, it's just words, let it go.' Even while a lot of women are really bothered by this. I would say: If it is such a majority who experiences these things as degrading and negative, is it really so hard to just change your behavior about this a little bit? Just no sexist comments anymore, it shouldn't be that hard.

Edit: I forgot about it, but there is a term for this; 'cat calling'. I guess that's what I tried to describe here. Most people who resort to this never really seem to consider how it could be received. It's as if it's so culturally embedded that no-one seems to really think about it anymore.

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You see, I have no problem with gender roles in certain instances. I have a huge problem with that getting completely destroyed, and creating from two sexes one sex and calling it "IT." In USA we have more and more males with feminine features, clothing, thinking and reasoning, and I find that disturbing. Here it almost seems that there is an open war on Y chromosome.

I understand what you mean. But I don't think I really see this as a problem. Doesn't everyone just have the right to live their life the way they want it? If a man feels more feminine than masculine, I think he has every right to wear women's clothes, or go for a sex-change. Why do you see this as a war on the Y chromosome? It might be an increasing amount of people who might like to cross-dress or whatever, but I bet more than enough men still like to wear suits. Not something you should worry about, if you ask me.

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This is where a large portion of the battle occurs. Feminists speak off "equality" and they are correlating it with sameness, and that just wont fly. While we should have equal rights, we are not equal or the same. We are governed by different hormones, different thinking process, different body and muscle mass, and honestly, I think each gender/sex compliments one another. What I see on one side is this bashing of males and double standards. It is not alright for a male to raise his voice and to be strong, because the females can be frightened, yet at the same token when the women scream and start acting more like a male than a female, then it is all good. Another interesting observation I made with radical feminism, is this hatred towards males and at the same time emulating behavior and look of a male. But unfortunately, all of these things I speak off, are not mentioned or allowed to be discussed, and like you said, people wont change.

I do agree with you that it goes way too far to go for an 'IT', instead of a 'he' or 'she'. Yes, there definitely are differences between the genders. It saddens me to read that these feminists you have spoken with seem to correlate equality with sameness. This is indeed not true. But in my opinion there are really numerous qualities from both genders that most of the time just mix a little bit. I think this is why some men like to wear women's clothes. But don't forget that this also happens the other way around. And what about androgyne people?

I think there is room to discuss every issue part of the bigger problem. It is sad that some women have developed this hatred towards males, but I think they must have their reasons for this. Besides, there are also many women or feminists who also look down on this, even here in Metalstorm there are female members who already told you they reject this behavior. And I bet they are far from the only ones.

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I think the entire argument over the equality could've been resolved sooner, like the issue of the same sex marriage in the USA, if in the second instance there was a bill for domestic partnership instead of marriage, and in the first instance, if certain roles were altered slightly, but leaving the functioning unit of a family structure operational. I am one of those people who has no problem with women working, having a career and all that, however, I am old school, and I believe that a male needs to be the head of the household since it is in the structure of a true male to be dominant, it is as much biology as it is nurture.

I like that you admit here in saying you are 'old school'. I guess this is where we differ in opinion. For several years gay couples who adopted children really had not much trouble raising them, I guess that is more than enough proof they can manage. Even with a lesbian couple, where no man is involved in.
I don't believe it is in the nature of a male to be dominant, this could be much more attributed to nurture, in my opinion. And this makes sense, because that is why commercials for Action Man(tm) are targetted at boys, for example. And in contemporary society it is no longer necessary for men to go out hunting and bring food and for the women to raise the kids. That is what I like about these times, they are so incredibly dynamic.

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I also agree that she should not have been threatened, but people get threatened by people all the time, this issue with males versus females is no different, and any other instance is no different. I mentioned before about the all male conference that the feminists threatened to blow up, and were causing ruckus. That's another thing. You want equality, you want to be treated the same, alright, you start being a disrespecting and attacking bitch, you'll get slapped like one. Women are not these pristine little innocent flowers that are easily broken, so they want equality, we give them equality, which means, next time there is a divorce, she does not get the majority of the house and money, does not get first dibs on kids, does not get reduced sentences for murder, homicide and other violations, does not get the benefit of a doubt during a domestic disturbance and so on and so forth. This is another issue that is not discussed. Feminists refuse to acknowledge that they themselves have privileges of their gender as well even when you point it out to them. I'm seeing several of these cases where Teachers had sex with underage students, all of the males got branded and got in huge trouble, with the females it was a mixed bag, where some got reduced sentences.

Yes, I definitely agree with you here. If you want to be treated like everyone else, expect the same treatment as everyone else. This is definitely why women should not expect a different treatment if they do want equal rights. Makes sense! Yet, I have not really encountered many women who really get upset about these things. In fact, they often get upset when they remain to be viewed by men as 'pristine little innocent flowers that are easily broken'. Most women that I know would probably slap me if I would see them like that, haha!

There can definitely be a hypocrisy here. But I guess people who have a hard time dealing with reality will always find a way to misuse their rights and people around them.

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I have a slight issue accepting that the women get less pay. I watched the video and it looks interesting, but I am looking at it from mere economical and financial standpoint. If you have a group of people, in this case females that get paid less then men for the same job, why doesn't everyone just hire females and fire all the males, that way you would have equal pay for all females in a sense, and an insane profit. This kind of reminds me of that rape statistic that 1 in 5 females will get raped in their lifetime and that is such a twisted statistic that I do not know where to start.

These are some issues I chose to discuss, feel free to let me know what you think, even if you disagree with me. And let's continue keeping it civil, because this is nice in comparison to other instances where these issues are raised

About the issue of less pay. I guess your suggestion about firing all the males from the company wouldn't really fly, because this happens in a discreet way. I would like to get some more insight in this, but since I am no female it is a bit harder to understand this phenomenon. But there is probably some written material about this. All I hear about is personal stories of women getting less pay. That is why I like the video by John Oliver; finally it gets some more attention.

To make things clear: I have no doubt some males experience the same kind of offense and degradation, but I am quite sure it has the same cause for men and women alike. There are both women and men who have trouble understanding the concept of equality. It both needs to stop, but this will probably take hundreds of years.

For me, feminism isn't so much about forcing a change of attitudes right now as it is abolishing all official structures that support gender roles and family models so we can have the choice to live as we please. I do not begrudge anyone the choice of being/having a housewife; as long as it was freely chosen or simply the best of bad options available in practice, and not because society offers it as the only "proper" model of life.

So I could not disagree with Rasputin more: the notion that there is some essential nature of "true man" and "woman" is not only philosophically misguided but dangerous and despotic. That you are disturbed by men being who they are (i.e. less traditionally masculine) after millenia of being forced to act as the strong, rational, responsible head of the household (who likes sports, cars and beer, no less) is precisely why we need feminism - and I am happy to use that historical term, even if the ideology should target both male and female roles and their place in society equally. It may not be the most accurate term if we were to come up with one from scratch, but shying away from it now would be the kind of political correctness that undermines one's conviction.

So for me, feminism is more about awareness than action. Once you realise that old doctrines like "men and women are biologically different" are actually nonsense, you drop your old politcal attitudes and change your behaviour automatically. I hope. And that is not to say "men" and "women" don't have biological differences, but people of both sexes have all sorts of biological differences and we do not make them the basis of policy or social norms; moreover, the supposed differences are generally exaggerated and extended to things they don't actually imply at all.

That is the Cardinal Evil that feminism needs to combat, really: the notion that biological differences of sex justify rigid gender roles. They don't, really, and I dare you to find a good argument to the contrary.

In my family unit, there is certainly no head of the household, and we do not need to appeal to gender stereotypes and our essential "nature" to justify unequal practices. We are two intellectual, emotional and sexual people who arrange life according to our preferences and habits. I do some things, she does some things, but never has there been a consideration of whether the "man" or the "woman" should be responsible for some particular thing. She makes money as a PhD student, I just finished my Master's. I probably cry more. We cook together and take turns picking films to watch. We do have hobbies and preferences typical of our gender, of course - she knits, I play video games, she likes to iron clothes, I have to do all the electric and plumbing -related chores - but that's just harmless preference and what we've learned. Yes, perhaps I would really love knitting too if it was something I had been taught as a kid, but there's no point fighting against our upbringing when it's not a big deal. The point of feminism is: there's nothing wrong with preferences, be they traditional or radical; as long as you are aware of your preferences and the norms that guide your everyday life, and have the option of doing things different if you wanted to.

That is: it is OK for Rasputin to be the head of the household, if that's what he finds comfortable and that's what his wife finds comfortable. If you have discussed this as equals, recognised the weight of tradition, taken stock of your resources and analysed your preferences and concluded that this is how it should be in your family, far be it from me or any angry feminist to say it's wrong. But if you never asked your wife, if you never stopped to consider it yourself, if you're just doing this because you're "supposed" to, you are in need of emancipation through awareness. What you do with that emancipation is your business, as long as you identify your motives and realise your choices are yours and not applicable to other families.

If the woman pays in a restaurant, do you feel uncomfortable? If so, ask yourself: does this make any fucking sense? Do I have any reason to feel uncomfortable, or is it just a stupid social norm imprinted on me that we should be able to rise above by now?

Rasputin, I still do not understand why you keep referring to feminists as this mysterious "they" who are unreasonable and nasty. Sure, it's easy to demonize "them" if you only recognize as feminists those who already support your preconception. But you're talking, right now, to feminists. As far as I can tell (and forgive the presumption), Mattybu is a feminist, Twilight is a feminist, and I am a feminist. The feminist representation in this topic does not seem to fit your model very well.

Written by IronAngel on 27.10.2014 at 10:33
As far as I can tell (and forgive the presumption), Mattybu is a feminist, Twilight is a feminist, and I am a feminist. The feminist representation in this topic does not seem to fit your model very well.

No prob. I guess I am. It's just a word.

"While I agree on the emotional arena which isn't really a good place for discussion, I do not entirely agree with you on the intent-part. It is quite a strange problem we have here. Intent can be good and friendly, but it might be received not as friendly. This is something that varies with every personality. So it is hard to discuss this as a general matter, but I think this is where human empathy comes in. I mean, we all have this quality, so why not use it? I agree that we shouldn't let emotion govern everything we do, but if someone takes offensive in something that I do, my first reaction is usually 'But why is that?' Just talking about these issues can already be enough in most of the cases.
Unfortunately, there are also many cases in which a degrading comment is disguised as something that can also be perceived as a positive remark. This can often be distinguished by its sarcastic or aggressive tone. For example, a comment with a sexist tone directed at a woman who is just passing by. There is almost no woman who is charmed by these kind of things, yet they keep happening. And if the target of the comment has a cold answer in return, she often gets things thrown toward her like 'Hey, I was just giving you a good comment!' or something similar. Even when the starting comment had very sexist tones.
I am not sure what you think about this, but there are many people who would say 'ah, it's just words, let it go.' Even while a lot of women are really bothered by this. I would say: If it is such a majority who experiences these things as degrading and negative, is it really so hard to just change your behavior about this a little bit? Just no sexist comments anymore, it shouldn't be that hard.

Edit: I forgot about it, but there is a term for this; 'cat calling'. I guess that's what I tried to describe here. Most people who resort to this never really seem to consider how it could be received. It's as if it's so culturally embedded that no-one seems to really think about it anymore."

I think intent must be taken into account. This is how in court we figure out if something is a murder, homicide or manslaughter for instance. Now, while I find the entire thing of intent amusing, considering that we can't ever know what someone trully thought or wanted, I think we can use the overall body posture, demeanor and everything else that comes with it. While I agree that people are bothered by it, at the same time I think that each person must get tougher, because we really are now going into a territory of things being stupid. I saw that video with a woman walking and allegedly all the man were cat calling her or whatnot, but if you are offended by "Hi, how are you" or "Hey beautiful" I can shake my head. Now, if it was "Look at that fine ass" or something like that, that is little different, but what I am saying is, that the entire argument is going out of hand, and we are hunting the things that we cannot account for, such as emotion, feeling and perception.

"understand what you mean. But I don't think I really see this as a problem. Doesn't everyone just have the right to live their life the way they want it? If a man feels more feminine than masculine, I think he has every right to wear women's clothes, or go for a sex-change. Why do you see this as a war on the Y chromosome? It might be an increasing amount of people who might like to cross-dress or whatever, but I bet more than enough men still like to wear suits. Not something you should worry about, if you ask me. "

I didn't say that they shouldn't or couldn't, I am just saying that more and more I see attacks on masculinity, while the feminization is being placed in the forefront, because we are fighting this "patriarchy" or whatever they call it. People can wear whatever they want, what I am seeing in the USA is that men are looked down upon for being men, while more women are acting like man or wearing men's clothes and haircuts. It's hypocrisy in my eyes. It goes back to the argument that I keep having with the feminists. I do not condone men going and sleeping around with every woman they meet and I do not advocate that for various reasons, but I find is that when I tell a feminist that maybe she should not be behaving like those men, and sleeping around, I am automatically attacking her sense of feminine agency and I am refusing to grant her ownership of her body. And I am not trying to do that, I am merely pointing out that two wrongs don't make a right that's it. It is interesting too see that many feminist in the USA are fighting against what men are doing, and are condeming it, but at the same time are doing it.

"I do agree with you that it goes way too far to go for an 'IT', instead of a 'he' or 'she'. Yes, there definitely are differences between the genders. It saddens me to read that these feminists you have spoken with seem to correlate equality with sameness. This is indeed not true. But in my opinion there are really numerous qualities from both genders that most of the time just mix a little bit. I think this is why some men like to wear women's clothes. But don't forget that this also happens the other way around. And what about androgyne people?

I think there is room to discuss every issue part of the bigger problem. It is sad that some women have developed this hatred towards males, but I think they must have their reasons for this. Besides, there are also many women or feminists who also look down on this, even here in Metalstorm there are female members who already told you they reject this behavior. And I bet they are far from the only ones."

Well, the thing is, they argue that men and women are the same, and then they refute their own statements by arguing that men are stronger then women and that's why women are afraid and get raped. Then in the same sentence they state that they can do everything a man can, and are strong and independent. It is a total clusterfuck if you ask me. And I am drawing this from encountering and debating with over 200-300 feminists if not more. It seems to me that most higher education schools that endorse Women Studies continue to brainwash more women into repeating the mantra over and over until they convince themselves that they are right and true. Androgyny people have their place in the world, they are who they are, but I am at the same time not advocating for all of us to start moving towards that trend, which seems to be a trend in the USA especially.

"I like that you admit here in saying you are 'old school'. I guess this is where we differ in opinion. For several years gay couples who adopted children really had not much trouble raising them, I guess that is more than enough proof they can manage. Even with a lesbian couple, where no man is involved in.
I don't believe it is in the nature of a male to be dominant, this could be much more attributed to nurture, in my opinion. And this makes sense, because that is why commercials for Action Man(tm) are targetted at boys, for example. And in contemporary society it is no longer necessary for men to go out hunting and bring food and for the women to raise the kids. That is what I like about these times, they are so incredibly dynamic."

If we look at nature, the majority is on the side of the males, while we have some alternate examples like Black Widow, Praying Mantis etc. The thing is, I see more and more on huffingtonpost, topics where the so called feminists who are fighting for equality are targeting boys and men, and are trying to draw erroneous conclusions out of nothing. I recently read an article in which they complained about cartoons, games, and toys being targeted specifically for men, and how that is discrimination, patriarchy again bla bla bla. I don't know if you are a gamer or not, but did you hear the Gamergate stuff from Sarkessian? THat is a prime example of how something gets drawn out of nothing. Check it out if you can. I am not much of a gamer, but I was pissed when I read and heard what she was arguing.

@Iron
The "true" feminists that I am talking about are all females, at least that's what I am being told. Since you are males, you can never be "true" like them. Their words, not mine.

Written by Rasputin on 07.11.2014 at 08:09
Well, the thing is, they argue that men and women are the same, and then they refute their own statements by arguing that men are stronger then women and that's why women are afraid and get raped. Then in the same sentence they state that they can do everything a man can, and are strong and independent. It is a total clusterfuck if you ask me. And I am drawing this from encountering and debating with over 200-300 feminists if not more. It seems to me that most higher education schools that endorse Women Studies continue to brainwash more women into repeating the mantra over and over until they convince themselves that they are right and true. Androgyny people have their place in the world, they are who they are, but I am at the same time not advocating for all of us to start moving towards that trend, which seems to be a trend in the USA especially.

Look. What you are mentioning here is not a clusterfuck at all. Of course men are, on average, stronger than women. That is, indeed, why some men have no problem in overpowering a women when wanting to rape them. But does that make them submissive to men? Of course not. Women have the right to do whatever they want, just like men. And this should be common sense. That is why the position of women can be equally strong (look at how this doesn't necessarily imply 'physically strong') and independent to the one of men, but at the same time they are sometimes afraid of men to overpower them because men are physically stronger. What is so hard to understand about this? It is completely logical to me that women are sometimes afraid of men to overpower them, this is why feminism exists. If only some men could just refrain from violating women like that...

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If we look at nature, the majority is on the side of the males, while we have some alternate examples like Black Widow, Praying Mantis etc. The thing is, I see more and more on huffingtonpost, topics where the so called feminists who are fighting for equality are targeting boys and men, and are trying to draw erroneous conclusions out of nothing. I recently read an article in which they complained about cartoons, games, and toys being targeted specifically for men, and how that is discrimination, patriarchy again bla bla bla. I don't know if you are a gamer or not, but did you hear the Gamergate stuff from Sarkessian? THat is a prime example of how something gets drawn out of nothing. Check it out if you can. I am not much of a gamer, but I was pissed when I read and heard what she was arguing.

To me it doesn't make sense at all that dolls and toy vaccuumcleaners are targeted at girls while action men, videogames, Lego and anything encouraging creativity at boys. If a boy wants a toy vaccuumcleaner, let him have it. If girls want to make things and use their creativity, give them paper and pencils or Lego. It is interchangable and it really should be. In every toy magazine this still is so extremely skewed and split between the typical pink and blue. This should just go. And that is what feminists are fighting against. To me that is completely logical. Why should there be this seperation?

Next to that, I don't think you should feel offended. I highly doubt they are really attacking men in general. I think this is much more about the overall preference for men and that women with the same qualities are much less likely to get chosen for something like a job interview. That is this patriarchy thing you seem to hate so much. That term does not mean at all that women should hate men, or the other way around.

About Sarkeesian; one may completely agree with her statements or one may think she is exaggerating things. Whether you agree with her or not, she does not deserve the threats she received.
Videogames have been targeted at guys for years. Now more and more women are playing videogames and start to notice the quite sexist way women are portrayed in games. There is nothing wrong in changing future games a little bit to make this go away.

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@Iron
The "true" feminists that I am talking about are all females, at least that's what I am being told. Since you are males, you can never be "true" like them. Their words, not mine.

Straight people don't get to determine what homophobia is. White people don't get to determine what racism is like for people of color. Men don't get to determine what women consider harassment.

Since I am male, I'm probably not 'true'. That doesn't make me less supportive for their cause. Men should not harass women. Men should not rape women. Women should not be forced into prostitution. Men should not get paid more for the same job as women. Women should have the same rights as men. It doesn't get more true than that.
You are fighting against this mirage of 'feminazis' while true injustice is being done to women globally.

The Sarkeesian deal is complicated. It tends to be polarized to "for" or "against" but the truth is something else and people have been misled by jumping on the bandwagon.

Sarkeesian herself has a poor method: she claims more credibility for her "research" and "analysis" than it warrants, going so far as to suggest it's fit for educational purposes. She is selective and misleading in providing evidence for the case, generally completely omitting anything that might qualify or contradict her statements. She systematically looks for material to support her preconceived notions rather than genuinely attempt to test and refute her own hypotheses. In short, her approach is political rather than academic. I have a particular distaste for her technique of cutting game footage out of context to run in the background of her video, not directly commenting on it (so that she need not defend against counter-arguments because she's not actually not claiming anything) but rather letting the watcher draw the implicit connection between what she's saying and what is being shown. This is a cheap trick and means she actually has much less evidence for her case in each video than it appears. Not once have I seen her question herself and admit that the issue with a particular game isn't as black-and-white, or that there are different games too. Then there are cases where she just atrociously twists the truth, like the infamous Hitman strip club scene. (I must admit here, however, that I haven't watched nearly all of her videos.)

On the other hand, the phenomena behind what she talks about are more or less true, even if she doesn't do a very good job at analyzing them. The video game industry does tend to do a poor job representing women, and it deserves to be recognized. It is irrefutable that sexualized female characters are overrepresented, even the norm, in video games. Prostitution and strip clubs are a universal signifier of "seedy urban environment", used much more frequently than "realism" would warrant. Female characters tend to come in a few archetypes (femme fatale, strong wo-man, cute and geeky, gentle caregiver, damsel in distress, whatever) and are often overly defined by this gender-related archetype. There is much more diversity to male characters, and that is a fact.

Then again, this is just a general trend we're observing. There are plenty of exceptions and shades of gray in reality. Sarkeesian (to my knowledge) never mentioned great female protagonists who weren't defined in terms of their gender, like Heather in Silent Hill 3 or Jade in Beyond Good & Evil. There are many games who let you choose the gender of the protagonists, and some (like Mass Effect) make it work incredibly well and empower all sorts of players to identify with the hero. Ironically, though, Mass Effect doesn't do as good a job with the rest of its cast, offering quite stereotyped and sexualized women to party up with and fuck.

Aaaand on the other hand, this isn't particular to video games. A lot of the hate against Sarkeesian probably stems from her appearing to call out video games in particular as a bad medium (though I don't think she does; it just happens to be the subject she's discussing). In truth, the limited scope of female representations is a feature of our culture in general, and especially mainstream entertainment, be it books, films or TV commercials. Video games are just one symptom and, I would argue, nowhere near the worst offender. If anything, video games have a greater potential for subversion than bigger media like Hollywood blockbusters, due to production costs and the ability to offer many alternate stories/characters in a single game. But that doesn't mean these bad tendencies shouldn't be exposed and criticized in video games as well, as long as we remember they aren't particular to them.

We must not forget that this isn't solely a female-related issue, either. There are plenty of male stereotypes, too. They are just more numerous and not as overtly defined by their gender. All in all, I am not against any specific representation, male or female, but I think there ought to be more diversity, more critical reflection on how we depict men and women in video games, and more courage to break the mold. This is already done in plenty of indie games, and a few mainstream titles, but the biggest franchises are woefully guilty of misogynistic and one-dimensional clichés.

Then again, you could ask whether horribly misogynistic games like GTA are such a big deal. I don't think they are. Some critics/feminists are a little inconsistent here, I feel: diversity of options is critical, and that ought to mean of good and bad options both. A gaming monoculture of any kind is undesirable, and that means we can't dictate the acceptable kinds of representation of men and women - that would just be replacing one cultural discourse with another. For true freedom and equality, we need to tolerate the kind of offensive (but fun, to some) games on both ends of the spectrum, whether they involve banging whores before shooting them, or abusing the genitalia of male rapists. Let people choose the kind of games they want to play and identify with.

One thing is clear: whatever the merits of Sarkeesian in uncovering and demonstrating misogyny in gaming (very few, I think), the violent reaction against her is ample proof that there exists a very vocal section of male gamerdom on the internet who are rampantly misogynistic and whose attacks, motivated as they might be in part by justified frustration, demonstrate the continued need for feminism. She has been attacked, not for the technical fallacies in her argumentation, but for being a woman and for being a feminist, and in terms which are gendered. The Gamergate phenomenon, too, betrayed a misogynistic attitude towards female commentators rather than men who said much the same things. I don't think there is a widespread culture of misogyny on the internet, specifically, but I think our culture is such that it enables gendered attacks on women specifically (whereas men are more often attacked on other grounds). I have never been threathened or criticized in terms related to my manhood; you'll find few active female bloggers who haven't been belittled due to being just a girl, commented upon sexually (even that redhead science chick on YT is almost exclusively praised for her "sexy voice"!) or threatened with rape. It's not necessarily that women are attacked or criticized more than men, as a rule. (I don't have solid statistics on this.) But when they are, it's clearly done in gendered terms, whereas men are held to some more universal standard (of political opinion, profession, age, proficiency of argumentation or whatever).

In the end, though, it shouldn't be about how you feel about Sarkeesian. It shouldn't be about how many stupid, exaggerated feminazis or misogynists you've argued with on the internet. There are stupid people on every side of every argument. That shouldn't blind you to the real problems behind the debate. You just need to distance yourself from the trenches and take a cool, analytical look over the issue to realize it isn't as simple as it's made out to be.

"Look. What you are mentioning here is not a clusterfuck at all. Of course men are, on average, stronger than women. That is, indeed, why some men have no problem in overpowering a women when wanting to rape them. But does that make them submissive to men? Of course not. Women have the right to do whatever they want, just like men. And this should be common sense. That is why the position of women can be equally strong (look at how this doesn't necessarily imply 'physically strong') and independent to the one of men, but at the same time they are sometimes afraid of men to overpower them because men are physically stronger. What is so hard to understand about this? It is completely logical to me that women are sometimes afraid of men to overpower them, this is why feminism exists. If only some men could just refrain from violating women like that..."

But that is the thing man, the feminist front is working on rewriting biology even. I read an article, a feminist driven article towards A&P part of things, and I was shocked to find that they stated that the reason why the men are allegedly stronger (it agreed at that time that males are stronger which confused me at first) because they are peer pressured from an early age to work on their upper body strength. And not, what many feminists I tried to debate with argued about was that women are as strong and if not better than men. It's funny how you say that woman are sometimes afraid of men to overpower them, yet they do nothing to thwart a potential rape situation. Then they continue to scream about "rape culture." Well, the men who violate woman like that are a vast minority, and they are breaking the law already, what I find hard to understand is this constant fight against potential rapists, by physically and socially doing nothing, aside from posting articles and inciting arguments, in which you as a male lose, because you get blamed to be a rape apologist, or just right out blocked. It is unfathomable for some people that you can be someone who does not support feminism, it is synonymous with being a bad person almost. The thing is, I understand where you are coming from with your view and defense of feminism, and on some level I would agree with you, but as I stated before the feminism you believe to support, is not the same feminism that they support, that's where the problem lies. If anyone for a second thought that there were not issues with feminism, I think everyone, or at least a vast majority would accept feminism as equally as we accept today that slavery should be outlawed, but the problem is that feminism is not an issue that is black or white like that, it has levels of gradation and too many shades for my taste to accept and embrace. Did you follow the recent incident with the comet probe guy when he attacked by one of the feminists by wearing a "sexist" shirt? The feminists exploded online about this issue, and called this guy a pig and numerous other names, for wearing a shirt that his female friend made for him. Now, these same people, who had issues with objectifying women defended the hell out of Kim Kardashian and her naked photoshop ass and stated that it was alright that she did that. Facepalm on a facepalm. Then you had Anita Sarkeesian attacking games and gamers by completely taking everything out of context and making up shit. So when she got trolled and received threats, she started crying and blaming patriarchy again and all that other happy jazz. Then you had some broad who wanted to make video games where a female gamer dies equal to a "rape zone" and that killing female gamers in games has the same effect as rape in real life, and that causes fear in female gamers and something should be done to stop that. Do you want me to continue? This is just recent BS, the insanity continues.

"To me it doesn't make sense at all that dolls and toy vaccuumcleaners are targeted at girls while action men, videogames, Lego and anything encouraging creativity at boys. If a boy wants a toy vaccuumcleaner, let him have it. If girls want to make things and use their creativity, give them paper and pencils or Lego. It is interchangable and it really should be. In every toy magazine this still is so extremely skewed and split between the typical pink and blue. This should just go. And that is what feminists are fighting against. To me that is completely logical. Why should there be this seperation?

Next to that, I don't think you should feel offended. I highly doubt they are really attacking men in general. I think this is much more about the overall preference for men and that women with the same qualities are much less likely to get chosen for something like a job interview. That is this patriarchy thing you seem to hate so much. That term does not mean at all that women should hate men, or the other way around.

About Sarkeesian; one may completely agree with her statements or one may think she is exaggerating things. Whether you agree with her or not, she does not deserve the threats she received.
Videogames have been targeted at guys for years. Now more and more women are playing videogames and start to notice the quite sexist way women are portrayed in games. There is nothing wrong in changing future games a little bit to make this go away."

I don't disagree with that being equal, but I disagree with you that the feminists are arguing to change that just because of that. I think there are many other things going on here. I'm not a Psychologist or Sociologist, but I would like to see some data as to the development of the child and influence on that development by the toys he/she are playing with.

But that is just it, they have no evidence to prove their claims. They still claim that a woman makes 78 cent to a man's dollar and that simply is incorrect. I don;t know how long, or how much are you actually involved with feminism and feminist issues, but the more I read and observe, the more I see ingrained hatred towards men that is both overt and covert. Maybe you will see it in the end, maybe not, after all you and I are just discussing things.

I think she had it coming, and for that matter anyone regardless of the sex/gender would've gotten the same. You have another antifeminist called Thunderfoot, he gets threatened all the time, but no one cares because 1) he is a guy, 2) he does not make a big deal out of it like she does, 3) threats made by trolls should not be taken seriously. Internet is internet, it is anarchy and that is what should be expected. You are right, games and gaming industry revolved mostly around males and the games were targeted for that audience, however, the game creators are also females, and they also have a contribution to it, so you can't blame "Patriarchy" for that. Second of all, her argument was illogical, misinformed, driven by disdain and manipulation, not to mention it was not well researched at all. We seem to be having 2 completely different modes of operation that cannot function in unison. There is a choice, you either do not objectify women or you do, there is no middle ground here, that seems to escape most feminists. They complain when women are portrayed a certain way in the media, yet they contribute to it willingly. So make up your mind already. The other thing with Anita's argument about no strong female characters is total bullshit, and honestly from the capitalist standpoint, if you do not have a market for something, why would you make a game and lose your money? She even pitched a video game idea that was not picked up by anyone. Why? Because there simply is no market for it. Patriarchy has nothing to do with that, yet again.

"Straight people don't get to determine what homophobia is. White people don't get to determine what racism is like for people of color. Men don't get to determine what women consider harassment.

Since I am male, I'm probably not 'true'. That doesn't make me less supportive for their cause. Men should not harass women. Men should not rape women. Women should not be forced into prostitution. Men should not get paid more for the same job as women. Women should have the same rights as men. It doesn't get more true than that.
You are fighting against this mirage of 'feminazis' while true injustice is being done to women globally."

I agree, straight white men don't determine anything, we are just things to be acted against in this modern society. Straight is the benchmark of nature, which makes homosexuality an aberration. The blacks or any other so called "minority" are not above and beyond discrimination themselves, as we can see in Ferguson, where the white people who came to support the blacks were basically insulted and attacked verbally by being there. Racism exists everywhere, the white people don't have a monopoly on it. And men seem to be obsolete and their issues irrelevant. If only a woman can dictate what harassment is, then I am sorry but that is bullshit, you are giving one group too much power to control a very important issue in any society, and that is the issue or relationships, love, sex and dating. What we have right now is this projection of absolutes, that only women for instance can determine and dictate and change their mind about being sexually assaulted or not. That is the problem where our world is heading, when we worry more about offending someone and catering to someones emotions over dealing with the real issues at hand.

Define me harassment? Men should not rape women, and humans also should not commit murder, lie, cheat and steal, but it is a part of human nature, good luck changing that. Many women these days think that prostitution, porn and stripping is a form of empowerment so good luck there, they are being manipulated into believing that that is fine and that is just wrong, but I agree that they should not be forced into prostitution. Women already have the same rights as men under the law, if not more. Men do not get paid more than women for the same job, if that was the case, men would be fired and the woman would be working, because why would I pay a man a dollar more when I can pay the woman a dollar less. Does not make any sense from economical standpoint. I am not fighting against a mirage, you are just not seeing what I am seeing, and the most damage that is being done on females globally is coming from themselves.

Not only women can dictate what harassment is. Men can do that too. What I said was that only women can say what they consider harassment for themselves. The same can be true for males. I am really not picking a side here, but I think you know that. And I think we both know what harassment is.

I am getting the feeling you are almost seeing feminism as some sort of threat to modern society. Like a lot of people are also afraid of the Islam taking over the western world for some reason. Your fears seem very similar to that, but instead the male population is being threathened. I don't get that. No one is taking over anything. Feminists just want to be treated equal and have equal rights. And there really is some ground to be won here. Maybe women have equal rights on paper or in the constitution, that doesn't make it real yet, unfortunately. And if you don't believe women get paid less than men, well yeah, I guess I can throw some more evidence about this toward you, but I don't think it will help. Of course companies wouldn't fire men, because then the problem would even be more obvious. And for most employees these problems aren't well known or recognised.

Do I really come across as someone going around hating men for what they do? Because, no, that is not the case. And I find it strange that you are seeing this. Yet again a sign for me that you are really living in some sort of fear. While there really is no reason for that. I am very concious about that males should also have equal rights for many things in which females are given the better part of the deal, like in a divorce. And if there are feminists around that are saying women should have more rights and more power, like you are stating, then they are no true feminists. I've even seen this happen on forums; some woman rises and speaks out her hatred toward men, but then other women reply, saying they're ashamed of women who speak like that and that they are the cause people are not taking feminists serioiusly. So yeah, there is a big difference going on within the movement too.
It saddens me to see you think that most women are doing the most damage to themselves. It sounds almost like the pope who once said women wearing revealing clothes are asking for it. Do you really share his thoughts in this? Because that is quite worrying.
Anyone should have the right to wear whatever the fuck he or she wants. If someone else is getting too horny because of that, he or she should just goddamn practice some self-control. It's probably hard for some people, but not impossible.

The problem is that there is no real dialogue going on. There should be. I bet sometimes there are these small interviews on television, which I haven't really encountered yet, but most of the time they get too little attention or are overshadowed by some screaming conservative christian from Fox news.

I assume the deal with women getting paid less for the same job applies to positions where you can negotiate wages. Men, perhaps, know how to ask for more, and employers are more willing to give them more. This isn't some insidious plan to oppress women, and women's inability to recognize this issue and address it in their own lives may often be a major contributor, but that doesn't make it any less real. Of course it doesn't apply in every field; many jobs have a standard wage everyone gets.