Written by Hyvaarin on 23.09.2007 at 06:45

I'm pretty sure that the whole point of science is to look at everything - confirmations and falsifications alike.

Interesting assertion, care to give an example? I've personally never come across an instant where science has intentionally looked for falsifications, which goes back to my point about Pluto finally being rejected as a planet. For years and years they knew Pluto was substantially different to the rest of the planets yet they kept looking for evidence to try confirm their theory that it was a planet. Once they were unable to find it, only then did they reject it as a planet and categorise it as a "dwarf planet".

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Exactly what is the "logic of nature", and how can we know what it is without using the scientific method of inductive reasoning?

No, you can use deductive reasoning for such a circumstance. There are things that are known to us, I don't deny that. Now, the logic of nature? By this, I'm referring to logical judgements about things that occur in the world without human intervention and that are used to form conclusions from circumstantial evidence. Now, this method wouldn't explain things 100%, but I think that it would help science get closer to a 'truth' compared to inductive reasoning.

I was raised Jewish although my father is a Christian Buddhist. Since I have become a Buddhist (Tibetan to be exact) I believe that God is simply a fact.

I have never seen a reason to believe inanything supernatural whether it was a miracle, ghost, god, spirits, angels, soul or afterlife. I can\t understand how one comes to believe in these things, enlighten me.

Something that has also surprised me that almost every that thinks that there is a God, immediatly believes that God also cares about us. I don't give a shit about ants, why would God care about me/us?

You'd think all those church collapses would send some kind of a message...

Written by Lucas on 30.09.2007 at 22:46

Something that has also surprised me that almost every that thinks that there is a God, immediatly believes that God also cares about us. I don't give a shit about ants, why would God care about me/us?

God ( christian god ) in a way doesn't not give a shit about anyone. If you are not on his side, he throws a pissy fit and sends you straight to hell. Then the Jewish G-d doesn't give a shit about you unless you are jewish. Otherwise he torches your city for being 'ungodly'.

Written by Sunioj on 01.10.2007 at 02:11

Written by Lucas on 30.09.2007 at 22:46

Something that has also surprised me that almost every that thinks that there is a God, immediatly believes that God also cares about us. I don't give a shit about ants, why would God care about me/us?

God ( christian god ) in a way doesn't not give a shit about anyone. If you are not on his side, he throws a pissy fit and sends you straight to hell. Then the Jewish G-d doesn't give a shit about you unless you are jewish. Otherwise he torches your city for being 'ungodly'.

and lets not get started on what the Muslim god tells the "righteous" to do to the infidels...

Written by Sunioj on 01.10.2007 at 02:11

Written by Lucas on 30.09.2007 at 22:46

Something that has also surprised me that almost every that thinks that there is a God, immediatly believes that God also cares about us. I don't give a shit about ants, why would God care about me/us?

God ( christian god ) in a way doesn't not give a shit about anyone. If you are not on his side, he throws a pissy fit and sends you straight to hell. Then the Jewish G-d doesn't give a shit about you unless you are jewish. Otherwise he torches your city for being 'ungodly'.

But still, even if he hates us, that means he knows where therre. And he hasn't got anything better to do than hate us. Isn't that a bit weird?

Written by Lucas on 01.10.2007 at 15:42

Written by Sunioj on 01.10.2007 at 02:11

Written by Lucas on 30.09.2007 at 22:46

Something that has also surprised me that almost every that thinks that there is a God, immediatly believes that God also cares about us. I don't give a shit about ants, why would God care about me/us?

God ( christian god ) in a way doesn't not give a shit about anyone. If you are not on his side, he throws a pissy fit and sends you straight to hell. Then the Jewish G-d doesn't give a shit about you unless you are jewish. Otherwise he torches your city for being 'ungodly'.

But still, even if he hates us, that means he knows where therre. And he hasn't got anything better to do than hate us. Isn't that a bit weird?

You are right, it is very weird. There is no reason for us to think that there is a god watching us and judging us. Perhaps people in the past were unable or unwilling to question this because they were to scared of being damned by their own deity ( or being ostracized by their community ). This still applies to many people that I know that believe in god...Even the ones who are not constrained by a religions doctrine and rather follows their own belief charismatically have a need to think that there is a power following them and guiding them.I think those who have the ability to choose their own god without pressure, end up following a deity that reflects their own personality and outlook on life.

Man throughout history has interpreted god to have human characteristics and has created stories/parables to parrallel the way that gods affect us or what message they are trying to project. So basically, man has created god in their image ( contrary to what most people that believe in a deity proclaim ). And man has always altered the definition of god throughout time to suit their own morale standings and outlook on life. Thats the beauty of deity, its almost subjective by definition from one person to another.

I hope this didn't sound too obscure.

With my current beliefs I don't quite recognize the concept of divinity. I mean, that due to some being, if it exists, let's call it god, having immense powers I still can't really see why he should have authority over others. For example, I appear to be much more powerful than a frog, but that doesn't mean that I have any right to command it, I think. Or that I should have any relations with them at all, so maybe the link between humans and so called gods(if they exist) does not exist aswell. But I may be wrong, because I don't know for sure.

Also another point I have found a bit strange about praying, well, I can understand it more or less if people consider god as something pretty much incomprehensible. But when they pray for some in my opinion a little bit pathetic everyday things that are actually in their sphere of influence and they could change themselves, for example praying for god to fix their car. It leaves to me an impression, that some people think there is a good sitting in heaven watching over all the world. Then if there is a problem somewhere a red light sparks on the world map and he starts to fix the problem with his magic. Like he would follow the lives of everyone and if something goes wrong fix it. Of course I don't know, but it sounds a bit strange to me.

Written by Too many fail. on 30.09.2007 at 22:40

I have never seen a reason to believe inanything supernatural whether it was a miracle, ghost, god, spirits, angels, soul or afterlife. I cant understand how one comes to believe in these things, enlighten me.

Much of it comes from experiencing such happenings. Without getting into great detail, that is what it was for me. I was much like you most of my life until I truly experienced some miraculous and spiritual happenings.

One of my favorite topics of debate.

It's odd though, because I've all the hundreds of hours I've spent on research (philosophy and psychology major) I can honestly sum up my conclusion in a single idea presented by Blaise Pascal.

In his Pascal's Gambit, he basically produces a pleasure matrix. He takes the idea of God and the purported eternal life of never-ending bliss to its logical end and declares that the smart money is to belief in the existence of a God. For, at most you suffer a minor lose if your belief proves incorrect. However, if you take the other route and argue against his existence, then if your belief proves incorrect you are consumed for all of eternity in Hell, or so they say.

Personally, my experience leads me into devout Atheism - but the smart money is on some sort of theism.

I don't believe there is any god who has any power over humans or any other living creature or something like that. Yet I sometimes feel some force which unites me to the world around me... it comes usually through nature and music. It's rather a substance than a being so I wouldn't call it god. It's not anything human.

I understand that it's easy to create gods, religions and dogmas to have something to hold on and to define things which appears to be characteristic to ppl. This all seems to me somehow "thin" and limited idea because it totally ignores our own limitations. I rather agree my own ignorance as a human and focus on things I see and feel without giving them names and characters I can't be sure of. The most ridiculous thing to do is to claim only your own "god" is the real one and others are herecy. If ppl want to think some almighty god is observing and caring about them let them have it. These are still all the same, either created by some human need or faint or overdone reflections of the basic truth hidden from us.

Written by Guest on 03.01.2008 at 23:02

I don't believe there is any god who has any power over humans or any other living creature or something like that. Yet I sometimes feel some force which unites me to the world around me... it comes usually through nature and music. It's rather a substance than a being so I wouldn't call it god. It's not anything human.

How do you feel it? What does it mean to feel some force that you can't specify more closely and what does it mean that it "unites you to the world"? Aren't you united enough? Seriously.
The reason why I ask is that here in Estonia, which is to a large extent an atheistic country, many-many people claim to believe in some sort of higher force or power. I personally suspect that this is only an impotent version of the concept of God. I mean, what difference does it make in your life whether you acknowledge this force or not?

As for my opinion concerning this thread, I don't know. I certainly don't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and morally perfect being.

Written by Eternal Flames on 23.09.2007 at 10:21

Written by Hyvaarin on 23.09.2007 at 06:45

I'm pretty sure that the whole point of science is to look at everything - confirmations and falsifications alike.

Interesting assertion, care to give an example? I've personally never come across an instant where science has intentionally looked for falsifications...

Falsifiability is a pretty major aspect of modern science, with the search for falsifications (that is, intentionally trying to prove a hypothesis to be wrong) as the main way in which theories are tested.

Written by John Barleycorn on 04.01.2008 at 19:57

Written by Guest on 03.01.2008 at 23:02

I don't believe there is any god who has any power over humans or any other living creature or something like that. Yet I sometimes feel some force which unites me to the world around me... it comes usually through nature and music. It's rather a substance than a being so I wouldn't call it god. It's not anything human.

How do you feel it? What does it mean to feel some force that you can't specify more closely and what does it mean that it "unites you to the world"? Aren't you united enough? Seriously.
The reason why I ask is that here in Estonia, which is to a large extent an atheistic country, many-many people claim to believe in some sort of higher force or power. I personally suspect that this is only an impotent version of the concept of God. I mean, what difference does it make in your life whether you acknowledge this force or not?

It's like a total peace in your mind. You are sitting alone in the forest and hear only sound of wind. Yet you feel the whole world around you and be conscious of your own smallness. No words, just the feeling.

If I didn't make it quite clear that force isn't something "out there", it's the life and universe itself, the entirety, the basic truth too big for a small ppl to comprehend. This force (or just thing) does not "make" anything or lead us. It's not human or personal.

What do you mean "united enough"? If I don't feel I'm united, then I'm not united AT ALL.

And finally what difference does this acknowledge make? Propably nothing, it's just knowledge or feeling of the world around. Like does it change your life if you know about the millions of other universes out there?

I dont think about each religion in this case . I think it must be good to credence and trust to one unit beyond what is ordinary . this is indicate two thin : 1- believe someone create us . 2- we can trust to someone in every time that hard for us ( I know u certainly have a difficult happened in your life that need someone )

all of thin that I said doesnt show my religion . I must say that open this case about the almighty . or for someone doesnt believe god

Personally I don't believe in any god; to me it's the same concept as ghosts or even santa for little kids. When children wake up and see presents by their christmas tree they just scream "santa!". It's not that the idea of a fat man breaking into your house every year is logical, the kids have just been told that this happens since birth so they blindly believe in it. In addition they also have no idea where the presents could've come from, and from that ignorance and curiosity stems this idea of a supernatural force contributing to the presents being there.

As previously stated it's the exact same thing for god. People are instructed in religion from birth, so they share the opinions of their parents. As well we have no idea (except for the big bang theory) about how the universe came to be so they just say "well, god must've created everything then!". God didn't make man, man's curiousity and ignorance made him/her/it/whatever god is to you . If you don't believe me just think about this, if you had never heard of religion and one day some guy in a black robe tryed to convince you that everything in the bible happened, how would you re-act?

Religion/god isn't all bad though. The proof is lacking but believeing in a higher force watching you can lead to you having a very rewarding life; thinking that you are blessed and will spend eternity in heaven or something of that sort. God and religion are good things they're just not for me I guess.

Written by Guest on 13.10.2008 at 02:23

Nope. No God for me. I equate the idea of God with Santa Clause. I don't say that just to make fun of the idea, I mean God = Santa Clause = doesn't exist is exactly how I view the whole thing. 0 credibility, but still a fun thing to tell children.

i can tell you for sure that it ain't fun allways, even in childhood. i strongly believed in God when i was a kid and now that i think back to those times i don't find it comparable with sweet fairytails such as Santa Clause...but i totally agree with what you said about credibility: "0 credibility", BUT lets say not even for kids.

My idea is that humanity needs god,whatever it is,if we put aside personal beliefs,we see that humans attempted to create gods all the time,the need for god is not just to define morality,and to supervise,it's more a part of us,our consciousness,and our subconsciousness,they are both prolongations of god,so believing in god gave humans a sense of stability and security.
Based on that,God does not need humans in any way,it's the other way around,so god normally would not bother to show signs for humans all the time,it's the humans who are supposed to stay wakeful and vigilant in order to seize those signs,because humans are mainly unthankful,and forgetting.

Personally i divide religion in three kinds:
1. Symbolic religion: in Dutch it's called "godsdienst" (translation: god-service). This is the religion we mostly criticise. It's all the rituals and symbols, which make up a religion (e.g. the christian cross, mass, dogma,...). This makes a religion unique on the one hand, but it has also the power to numb people ("religion is the opium of the people"). People believe what they read in the bible literally, but in doing so they forget that it's only a symbolification. Cfr. the story of Moses and the golden lamb: Moses is mad at his followers for deifying a golden lamb as a symbol for God. I think that the reason why he's upset is that the lamb is a symbol that tricks people. The lamb has a certain symbollic meaning (that's why a lamb or a sun is more appropriate for a god than for example an ant). The desire to deify is a basic need for human beings. We used to deify God, but now we do the same thing with popstars or television stars.

2. Moral religion: this is the normative part of religion (the one which tells what to do and what not to do). Most of the symbols tell us something moral (e.g. the ten commandments, the good samaritan,...). Mostly this morality is a reflection of the morality of the culture who practise the religion (religions hardly say something which morally outrages the people of the specific time, place and class of that religion). E.g. christianity is a morality of the slaves and proletarians of roman civilisation, so the moral is also slavish (further reading: Nietzsche - on the genealogy of morality).

3. Mysticism: this is the kind of religion practised by only few people (mystics, some eastern religions, ...). It's the kind that searches for the inner god in the soul and the immanent god in everything. Here God is nothingness, when all earthly bounds are gone. But if it's a nothingness, then it cannot be known, because knowing implicates language and in language nothingness becomes something (so it becomes earthly again). This doesn't mean it can't be experienced. Examples of that are nirvana, brahman, the unification of god and the soul in christian mysticism,....

Please comment on my theory, so it can be perfectioned.

I started looking deeper in such matters these past months. As to the actual purpose of religion my view may be quite limited, I see it as simply another way the human creature manifests its social nature but that aside, the level of complexity and harmony which the world possesess, the very way things "work" both in mineral and living matter, in a way imposes into my mind the thought that all creation couldn't have simply sprung out of nothing, by itself .
Beyond that I dare not consider thinking, for I believe there is no way in which "God" could possibly be correctly expressed in human language.

That about sums it up.