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The original post

Posted by on 22.05.2012 at 18:51
The great After Forever are no more. Bal-Sagoth are never going to release an album again (probably). Therion and Epica are but pale shadows of what they used to be and Nightwish's latest album might as well have been called Imaginaerum: Nightwish On Autopilot. On top of that, Xandria's latest and quite boring album is being hailed by many as some sort of savior of the genre. As a huge fan of symphonic metal and it's sub genres (symphonic power, death etc) I am worried. It seems that too many bands nowadays use symphonic elements not because they add much to the music, but to disguise the fact that they are just not very good metal bands. Anyone - and I mean that literally - can add a Carmina Burana ooh! aah! choir to the chorus of their frustratingly simplistic four chord song or attach some pointless violin melodies (if you can call them that) to their mediocre riffs. This takes no effort and far too many bands are doing it. In addition to that, most former great symphonic metal bands have either called it quits (the wise choice) or have gone downhill big time. I don't think anyone in their right mind would consider "Imaginaerum" or "Requiem For The Indifferent" to be in the same category of greatness as "Oceanborn" or "The Phantom Agony". So, what are your thoughts on this? Has symphonic metal become a cliche and if so, are there any bands out there who can bring dignity back to one of the most epic genres of music to ever exist?



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nobody

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  16.10.2014 at 02:39
I agree whit dead one, I never heard talking about melo death and melodic death as seperet , not even professional music journalists not even amateur I net trolls as we are here including my self
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Wingtorte

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  13.11.2014 at 03:59
It isn't all that uncommon at all to see people make the distinction between melodeath and melodic death metal. Melodeath isn't necessarily a "distinct" sub-genre onto itself but it is definitely used as a distinguishing term. I've heard it used in a variety of ways by other metalheads and myself included. Its mainly used as either a short form for any melodic death metal or to specifically talk about Gothenburg or Gothenburg-inspired melodic death metal. For myself if someone says melodic death metal they can mean any range of bands or styles within death metal from Dissection and Sacramentum to post-Fourth Dimension Hypocrisy to Amon Amarth to Children of Bodom to In Flames etc. What many are referring to when they say melodeath are generally referring to bands like In Flames and At the Gates or bands that took influence from the Gothenburg style even if they aren't purely melodic death metal. For example bands like Children of Bodom, Ensiferum, Norther and so on. So again, it isn't a sub-genre onto itself but Gothenburg-inspired melodic death metal is still fairly easy to distinguish from others.
deadone
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  13.11.2014 at 04:38
Written by Wingtorte on 13.11.2014 at 03:59

It isn't all that uncommon at all to see people make the distinction between melodeath and melodic death metal. Melodeath isn't necessarily a "distinct" sub-genre onto itself but it is definitely used as a distinguishing term. I've heard it used in a variety of ways by other metalheads and myself included. Its mainly used as either a short form for any melodic death metal or to specifically talk about Gothenburg or Gothenburg-inspired melodic death metal. For myself if someone says melodic death metal they can mean any range of bands or styles within death metal from Dissection and Sacramentum to post-Fourth Dimension Hypocrisy to Amon Amarth to Children of Bodom to In Flames etc. What many are referring to when they say melodeath are generally referring to bands like In Flames and At the Gates or bands that took influence from the Gothenburg style even if they aren't purely melodic death metal. For example bands like Children of Bodom, Ensiferum, Norther and so on.




Actually CoB and Ensiferum get classed as Extreme Power Metal and Folk Metal respectively these days.

CoB used to raise heads when it came to genre definition - sometimes melodic DM and other times symphonic Black Metal. Then someone came up with the whole Extreme Power Metal tag. Though their last album was more melodic death metal than most current melodic DM bands. Dissection is another genre bender and I've seen them listed as Black, melodic Black and melodic Death. Purely soundwise I'd say melodic Black.

And the other problem is many melodic DM bands (e.g. In Flames being the big one) stopped playing melodic DM but still got the genre title until more modern revisions started labelling these as alternative metal or modern metal or melodic groove metal (thanks Metal Archives). In the mid 2000s the genre label seemed almost meaningless as anything from Sweden was dubbed melodic DM

Still not sold on melodeath as anything other than an abbreviation though.


Written by Wingtorte on 13.11.2014 at 03:59
So again, it isn't a sub-genre onto itself but Gothenburg-inspired melodic death metal is still fairly easy to distinguish from others.


The Gothenburg tag is fair better than melodeath. It's kinda like separating Thrash from Thrash Metal.

Even then there are variances - ATG seldom sounded like the initially folky In Flames or bouncier early Dark Tranquility. They were too abrasive early on and then went Thrash (still have to give the new album some time). Hence it's not one sound but at least 3 with Arch Enemy/Carnal Forge etc throwing in a fourth in chanelling Carcass circa Heartwork vibes. It's not like Floridian Death Metal where you had one prevalent style and sound (ie. cooked by Scott Burns at Morrisound) or Stockholm Death with it's abrasive, fuzzy, punked up approach to Death.
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  13.11.2014 at 11:56
Written by deadone on 13.11.2014 at 04:38


CoB used to raise heads when it came to genre definition - sometimes melodic DM and other times symphonic Black Metal.



The only person that ever called CoB any form of black was Alexi Laiho. And be honest, calling CoB either melodic DM or symphonic black is totally and utterly ridiculous. Calling them symphonic BM even moreso than calling them melodic DM.
The only thing whch is not fast power metal about their sound are the vocals.
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Ganondox

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  13.11.2014 at 11:58
Written by deadone on 13.11.2014 at 04:38

Written by Wingtorte on 13.11.2014 at 03:59

It isn't all that uncommon at all to see people make the distinction between melodeath and melodic death metal. Melodeath isn't necessarily a "distinct" sub-genre onto itself but it is definitely used as a distinguishing term. I've heard it used in a variety of ways by other metalheads and myself included. Its mainly used as either a short form for any melodic death metal or to specifically talk about Gothenburg or Gothenburg-inspired melodic death metal. For myself if someone says melodic death metal they can mean any range of bands or styles within death metal from Dissection and Sacramentum to post-Fourth Dimension Hypocrisy to Amon Amarth to Children of Bodom to In Flames etc. What many are referring to when they say melodeath are generally referring to bands like In Flames and At the Gates or bands that took influence from the Gothenburg style even if they aren't purely melodic death metal. For example bands like Children of Bodom, Ensiferum, Norther and so on.




Actually CoB and Ensiferum get classed as Extreme Power Metal and Folk Metal respectively these days.



Quote:

And the other problem is many melodic DM bands (e.g. In Flames being the big one) stopped playing melodic DM but still got the genre title until more modern revisions started labelling these as alternative metal or modern metal or melodic groove metal (thanks Metal Archives).

Which, like many of MA's labels, is ridiculous as they don't sound anything like groove metal. The term would be better applied to something like Five Finger Death Punch.
Wingtorte

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  18.11.2014 at 04:13
Written by deadone on 13.11.2014 at 04:38

Actually CoB and Ensiferum get classed as Extreme Power Metal and Folk Metal respectively these days.

CoB used to raise heads when it came to genre definition - sometimes melodic DM and other times symphonic Black Metal. Then someone came up with the whole Extreme Power Metal tag. Though their last album was more melodic death metal than most current melodic DM bands. Dissection is another genre bender and I've seen them listed as Black, melodic Black and melodic Death. Purely soundwise I'd say melodic Black.

And the other problem is many melodic DM bands (e.g. In Flames being the big one) stopped playing melodic DM but still got the genre title until more modern revisions started labelling these as alternative metal or modern metal or melodic groove metal (thanks Metal Archives). In the mid 2000s the genre label seemed almost meaningless as anything from Sweden was dubbed melodic DM

Still not sold on melodeath as anything other than an abbreviation though.


I'm not here to "sell" anyone on anything, but whether you or anyone else likes it the term melodeath is used as such in the metal scene today and has been for quite some time. Whether or not you think its "correct" that people do so is an entirely different argument. I was commenting specifically on posters claiming that they had never "heard" of this, which I find quite strange considering how prevalent it is and I've heard the term melodeath used pretty regularly in both ways I've mentioned in both Europe and North America, so it can't be so "rare" with that said.

As for Ensiferum, I've heard them called both melodeath and folk metal over the years, and to be quite frank much of the "folk metal" out there in the same vein of Ensiferum is in fact nothing more than melodic death metal with folk and to some degree power metal influences. For example, musically there is very little that separates Ensiferum and Wintersun (for obvious reasons), Norther and other bands like these. These genre titles like "folk metal," "viking metal" etc. often depend on lyrical content as much if not more than musical content. It's like arguing Amon Amarth are "viking metal" instead of melodic death metal based solely on their lyrical themes.

Dissection may be unique but the band's place within the early 90s Swedish death metal scene and influence on the death metal genre as a whole is pretty undeniable. In certain respects they were a "genre-bender" in a similar way that Bathory was and that's to say mainly that many bands were embodying several different influences and so could not be classified as concretely as many fans seem to want to do today. Is Bathory black metal or thrash metal? Dissection melodic death or melodic black? In reality it's both and neither, while they had a great deal of influence in both genres. Its ludicrous to say that Dissection does not embody both melodic death metal and black metal or to separate them entirely from their contemporary scenes. Calling Dissection strictly melodic black metal is ignoring their place in the Swedish death metal scene and influence on the genre.


Written by deadone on 13.11.2014 at 04:38


The Gothenburg tag is fair better than melodeath. It's kinda like separating Thrash from Thrash Metal.

Even then there are variances - ATG seldom sounded like the initially folky In Flames or bouncier early Dark Tranquility. They were too abrasive early on and then went Thrash (still have to give the new album some time). Hence it's not one sound but at least 3 with Arch Enemy/Carnal Forge etc throwing in a fourth in chanelling Carcass circa Heartwork vibes. It's not like Floridian Death Metal where you had one prevalent style and sound (ie. cooked by Scott Burns at Morrisound) or Stockholm Death with it's abrasive, fuzzy, punked up approach to Death.


Not really...Gothenburg generally refers to a fairly specific sound, influence and time context. If you consider melodic death metal as a whole it has certain primary roots. Those roots beyond the early Swedish death metal/Stockholm scene are in the likes of Dissection (especially The Somberlain), early At the Gates and Carcass (among others, of course). Regardless of individual variations, those influences are present when it comes to the Gothenburg sound. Carcass was already an influence on In Flames by the time the Jester Race came out so why you're claiming Arch Enemy/Carnal Forge were the ones "channeling" this supposed "fourth Heartwork sound" I'm not too certain. Carcass was a pretty obvious influence on the mid-90s Gothenburg sound in general. Also, you can see a pretty clear division today between the early Gothenburg bands/the bands they influenced over the years and melodic death metal as a whole. Regardless of the genre early Gothenburg bands are playing today or in their later years, bands influenced directly by the 90s Gothenburg scene are pretty easy to spot versus melodic death/black metal bands like Sacramentum or Elysian Fields with more direct influence from the likes of Dissection, Rotting Christ etc (evidently by this point I'm talking beyond the Swedish scene).

The whole point of my initial post was to point out that melodeath vs melodic death metal, like it or not, is used by many metalheads to refer to bands influenced by the Gothenburg scene/sound. If someone can distinguish the differences between Jester Race and The Coming of Chaos then they should be able to distinguish the Gothenburg sound from the greater melodic death metal sub-genre. And if someone can distinguish Norther from the Elysian Fields then, again, they should be able to hear a distinction in sound. Whether someone chooses to call that distinction "melodeath" or not is really up to them, but to claim that the term isn't fairly regularly used as such a distinction is a bit silly.
deadone
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  18.11.2014 at 05:49
In Flames' early shit like Lunar Strain certainly wasn't channelling Carcass - it and DT's Skydancer are contemporaries of Heartwork! Terminal Spirit Disease wasn't released that much later either (4 months after Heartwork). They certainly weren't channelling the grooves of Necroticism either!

Carcass was the big band at the time but Gothenburg seen developed by itself. Carcass gets the credit not cause it was first but because it was the first with any recognition to go melodic DM.

Carnal Forge and Arch Enemy had much more obvious Carcass influences (Hell Carnal Forge is named after a Carcass song) than In Flames or ATG or DT who were playing melodic stuff at the time Carcass was going melodic.

And I'm a Carcass fanboy but credit where credit is due.

Written by Wingtorte on 18.11.2014 at 04:13


The whole point of my initial post was to point out that melodeath vs melodic death metal, like it or not, is used by many metalheads to refer to bands influenced by the Gothenburg scene/sound. If someone can distinguish the differences between Jester Race and The Coming of Chaos then they should be able to distinguish the Gothenburg sound from the greater melodic death metal sub-genre. And if someone can distinguish Norther from the Elysian Fields then, again, they should be able to hear a distinction in sound. Whether someone chooses to call that distinction "melodeath" or not is really up to them, but to claim that the term isn't fairly regularly used as such a distinction is a bit silly.



Your "many metalheads" is merely speculation. This is not accepted terminology and never has been. Even a cursory glance at the intenet will see that melodeath and melodic death metal are used interchangedly and not to denote any differences between melodic DM and Gothenberg/Swedish melodic death metal .

Indeed as an an example - I just typed in Arsis and melodeath and got a stack of results where Arsis is referred to as melodeath: http://www.metalstorm.net/awards/categories.php?cat_id=4

Now what do Arsis have to do with Gothenberg melodic death metal either stylistically or geographically etc etc? Nothing.



And I can hear a massive difference between Slayer and Metallica or but they all get lumped in as thrash. Or early Morbid Angel and Deicide but they all get denoted as Death Metal and Florida Death Metal at most.

By the way I'm listening to Megadeth now who play Los Angelan Melodic Non-Metallica Thrash Dave Mustaine Core.
Darth Satanious
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  18.11.2014 at 08:55
"Melo Death" is a term exclusively used when you seriously need to take a leak and the only "dic" you have time to deal with is your own meat-hose so you leave the "dic" out of "Melodic" in order to reach the toilet on time to paint that motherfucker yellow.
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M C Vice
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  18.11.2014 at 09:38
Written by deadone on 18.11.2014 at 05:49


By the way I'm listening to Megadeth now who play Los Angelan Melodic Non-Metallica Thrash Dave Mustaine Core.

I thought they played Heavy Speed Wanna Be Metallica Fuck You Lars And James Thrash Look At Me Look At Me Metal?
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  18.11.2014 at 13:45
Apparently some people don't know what "symphonic metal" is. Unless Melodeath is now symphonic metal.

But for what it's worth, Wingtorte is correct, "melodeath" and "melodic death metal" are occasionally used as separate distinctions. The fact a few people here, people from all different locations, recognise this shows that it is "accepted" in some form. Denial in spite of this fact does not change anything.
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nobody

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  18.11.2014 at 17:37
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 18.11.2014 at 13:45

Apparently some people don't know what "symphonic metal" is. Unless Melodeath is now symphonic metal.

But for what it's worth, Wingtorte is correct, "melodeath" and "melodic death metal" are occasionally used as separate distinctions. The fact a few people here, people from all different locations, recognise this shows that it is "accepted" in some form. Denial in spite of this fact does not change anything.


same I will say operatic, prog metal are labeled as gothic because there are female singer wearing more less gothic dress
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deadone
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  19.11.2014 at 00:28
Written by M C Vice on 18.11.2014 at 09:38

Written by deadone on 18.11.2014 at 05:49


By the way I'm listening to Megadeth now who play Los Angelan Melodic Non-Metallica Thrash Dave Mustaine Core.

I thought they played Heavy Speed Wanna Be Metallica Fuck You Lars And James Thrash Look At Me Look At Me Metal?



You realise we are now going to have to have a thirty page argument about this?
deadone
Mainstream Poser

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From: Australia

  19.11.2014 at 00:33
Written by Bad English on 18.11.2014 at 17:37

Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 18.11.2014 at 13:45

Apparently some people don't know what "symphonic metal" is. Unless Melodeath is now symphonic metal.

But for what it's worth, Wingtorte is correct, "melodeath" and "melodic death metal" are occasionally used as separate distinctions. The fact a few people here, people from all different locations, recognise this shows that it is "accepted" in some form. Denial in spite of this fact does not change anything.


same I will say operatic, prog metal are labeled as gothic because there are female singer wearing more less gothic dress


With regards to Joes post, if he wasn't so keen on taking sides, he'd also acknowledge that very often melodeath and melodic death metal are used interchangedly and more often than not.

But as per usual offensive action against one's enemy is the name of his game.
!J.O.O.E.!
Thought Police

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  19.11.2014 at 00:51
I already stated on the other page that it seems to have fallen out of favour in this day and age (and I even said "occasionally used" in that post so not sure what you read) and has likely been forgotten by many and the argument has never been that that distinction is the more common use, only that the distinction exists with certain people. This has nothing to do with side-taking or anything like that because a fact is a fact, even if only ostensibly so, and when people come forward and state that the distinction is used in their experience then that's something that you should take on board. If you want to subvert that by misrepresenting what has been said and getting all personal about it that's your business but, as I said, a fact is a fact (unless you think we're lying) and you saying it doesn't exist doesn't change the point that it clearly does in circles you don't move in. If you find the truth "offensive" then that's your problem.
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Wingtorte

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  19.11.2014 at 01:04
Written by deadone on 18.11.2014 at 05:49

In Flames' early shit like Lunar Strain certainly wasn't channelling Carcass - it and DT's Skydancer are contemporaries of Heartwork! Terminal Spirit Disease wasn't released that much later either (4 months after Heartwork). They certainly weren't channelling the grooves of Necroticism either!

Carcass was the big band at the time but Gothenburg seen developed by itself. Carcass gets the credit not cause it was first but because it was the first with any recognition to go melodic DM.

Carnal Forge and Arch Enemy had much more obvious Carcass influences (Hell Carnal Forge is named after a Carcass song) than In Flames or ATG or DT who were playing melodic stuff at the time Carcass was going melodic.

And I'm a Carcass fanboy but credit where credit is due.


To reiterate, I referenced the influence of Heartwork on mid-90s Gothenburg releases and referenced Jester Race not Lunar Strain (directly in your response to your previous claim that Arch Enemy and Carnal Forge formed a "distinct fourth sound" because they were the only bands with Heartwork influences). It also appears that you believe that scenes and sub-genres develop in a vacuum with no outside influence. The Gothenburg scene did not "develop by itself" and in any scene, in any sub-genre you need to consider context. For example, without the Stockholm scene its impossible to know whether At the Gates would have been inspired in the first place to develop their own take on death metal, to start to incorporate more melodic influences into their death metal. Despite that each band may have their own variations, they were all to some degree elaborating on elements already coming together to define the Gothenburg sound, whether its the "folkier" elements of early In Flames or the "straight up" melodic death metal of early AtG. They both revolved around shared founding elements, and considering the direct impact of early AtG on In Flames and considering that in the context of the Swedish (and global) death metal scenes at the time they both encompassed a pretty distinct/unique sound, it is strange to claim that they did not sound alike (as you claimed in your previous post). Its precisely why I was bringing up bands like the Elysian Fields in relation to the Gothenburg sound. Because while you can talk about melodic death metal as a whole, certain scenes gave birth to certain sounds regardless of variation band to band. At the Gates and In Flames share obvious common elements for the obvious reason that In Flames were directly influenced by AtG and that they differ from what was happening with melodic death and melodic black metal in Greece in the early 90s. Anyone comparing the early 90s Greek black/death metal scenes and the bands that spawned from it in the mid-90s to the Gothenburg scene can say that yes both scenes included bands playing some form of melodic death metal or at the least death metal with melodic elements, but that the scenes produced distinct sounds. This should not be such a difficult concept to wrap one's head around.

Written by deadone on 18.11.2014 at 05:49

Your "many metalheads" is merely speculation. This is not accepted terminology and never has been. Even a cursory glance at the intenet will see that melodeath and melodic death metal are used interchangedly and not to denote any differences between melodic DM and Gothenberg/Swedish melodic death metal.


And now you're just getting ridiculous. Mere speculation? Go to any metal forum, go to any gig and strike up a conversation, go to any metal bar between North America and Europe and you'll see that there are many who use melodeath and melodic death metal interchangeably as well as many who use melodeath as a way of specifically referencing the Gothenburg scene. Like it or not it happens. And to talk about "mere speculation" on a metal forum is outright ludicrous. What is this, an academic journal? Am I supposed to cite "academic" sources about scenes that take place in real-time? We're not talking about a history paper or scientific report. There are no data and figures on the numbers of metalheads who use either and there is no true authority on what "accepted terminology" is in this case. You are not the authority, I am not the authority. All there is are the scenes themselves and one's experiences within them. If you can't perceive any difference between the Gothenburg scene and the generation of bands that took influence from it and the early Greek scene as another example, then that's fine. But it doesn't change that metalheads frequently reference these scenes as possessing distinct sounds within their greater sub-genre. Its like claiming that its pointless to make a distinction between 90s Swedish black metal and the many bands (Swedish and not) that this style influenced and the late 80s/early 90s Norwegian scene and its influences (both Norwegian and not). There are obvious differences despite both being black metal and influencing each other to varying degrees.

Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 18.11.2014 at 13:45

Apparently some people don't know what "symphonic metal" is. Unless Melodeath is now symphonic metal.


Not sure if this was a passive way of referring to my posts on Ensiferum, but if so I'll respond. Symphonic metal is not technically a genre unto itself in the same sense that power metal, death metal or black metal are. In this sense its the same as people who define Ensiferum as "folk metal" and Wintersun as "melodic death metal" despite that if you strip away the lyrics and keyboards, musically the bands are very similar and fall within the melodic death metal spectrum. The primary difference between the two is Ensiferum's use of folk instrument MIDI samples in combination with folk/pagan lyrical themes. An example is the countless people who call Nightwish "symphonic metal" or "melodic metal" when in reality the band is a power metal band with what overtime has been identified as "symphonic" elements. These "symphonic" elements can range from anything like having cheesy MIDI keyboard strings to having a mini orchestra in your band like Haggard. But to call a band simply "symphonic metal" is a bit useless in describing the actual genre of a band, since typically the "symphonic" aspects are an add on to the band's actual genre (power metal, death metal etc.).
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Thought Police

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  19.11.2014 at 01:07
Nah, I was just referring to how far offtopic this has gone. It's a topic on symphonic metal which has mostly had talk of melodeath in it (of which I contributed too).
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Wingtorte

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  19.11.2014 at 01:12
Ah ok, sorry about that, I got a bit too much into "debating mode" and misunderstood I only really read the last couple of pages or so of the topic, saw the discussion and kind of jumped in. I'll leave it there then and let things get back on track.
deadone
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  19.11.2014 at 01:26
Written by Wingtorte on 19.11.2014 at 01:04


To reiterate, I referenced the influence of Heartwork on mid-90s Gothenburg releases and referenced Jester Race not Lunar Strain (directly in your response to your previous claim that Arch Enemy and Carnal Forge formed a "distinct fourth sound" because they were the only bands with Heartwork influences). It also appears that you believe that scenes and sub-genres develop in a vacuum with no outside influence. The Gothenburg scene did not "develop by itself" and in any scene, in any sub-genre you need to consider context.


I never said genres develop in a vacuum. I was merely pointing out the origins of Gothenburg sound are contemporaries and with regards to Dark Tranquillity's Skydancer it slightly pre-dates Heartwork by a matter of months.

There was obviously a shedload of infliuences here.

Jester Race was a mature melodic DM album at the height of the genre's innovative period. Basically it was melodic death metal's equivalent of Master Of Puppets.

Quote:
At the Gates and In Flames share obvious common elements for the obvious reason that In Flames were directly influenced by AtG


Any evidence of In Flames being directly influenced by At The Gates? E.g interviews etc?

Lunar Strain came out slightly before ATG went really melodic on Terminal Spirit Disease. Prior to TSD ATG were much more extreme.

And you're ignoring the impact of Dark Tranquillity's Skydancer which predates all of them and was far more pure melodic Death Metal than ATG's earlier more death metal orientated work.



Quote:
and that they differ from what was happening with melodic death and melodic black metal in Greece in the early 90s. Anyone comparing the early 90s Greek black/death metal scenes and the bands that spawned from it in the mid-90s to the Gothenburg scene can say that yes both scenes included bands playing some form of melodic death metal or at the least death metal with melodic elements, but that the scenes produced distinct sounds. This should not be such a difficult concept to wrap one's head around.


To be honest I have no idea about Greek scene.



Quote:
And to talk about "mere speculation" on a metal forum is outright ludicrous. What is this, an academic journal? Am I supposed to cite "academic" sources about scenes that take place in real-time?


First rule of claiming anything is to be able to back yourself up. And as you've seen I've been using such simple sources as google searches.

Back when I was more involved with real life metalheads (up to 2005), I never saw any distniction between melodic death metal and melodeath. I see it every now and then on forums and then it's used wierdly and in quite a few instances to refer to modern In Flames and Soilwork and not older stuff.



Quote:

We're not talking about a history paper or scientific report. There are no data and figures on the numbers of metalheads who use either and there is no true authority on what "accepted terminology" is in this case.


Plenty of sources - leading websites (e.g. Metal Archives or indeed Metalstorm), metal magazines, google searches even Wikipedia etc etc.


Quote:

You are not the authority, I am not the authority.


Totally agree - hence I try to find sources to back up my claims.


Quote:
But it doesn't change that metalheads frequently reference these scenes as possessing distinct sounds within their greater sub-genre.


Never disputed this. But the general terminology used is Gothenburg. Melodeath is too often used to describe all of melodic death metal (as I've shown).


Now listening to Hellyeah - Vinnie-Paul-Tastic Mosh Core.
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Thought Police

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From: UK

  19.11.2014 at 01:34
Considering a huge bulk of deadone's arguments on this forum, more-so than anyone else I've seen on here in a good long while, are "I knew a guy who did / thought this" I'm surprised he's suddenly pushing the sources / evidence trope so much
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M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1857

Age: 28
From: Australia

  19.11.2014 at 09:00
Written by Wingtorte on 19.11.2014 at 01:04

Symphonic metal is not technically a genre unto itself in the same sense that power metal, death metal or black metal are. In this sense its the same as people who define Ensiferum as "folk metal" and Wintersun as "melodic death metal" despite that if you strip away the lyrics and keyboards, musically the bands are very similar and fall within the melodic death metal spectrum. The primary difference between the two is Ensiferum's use of folk instrument MIDI samples in combination with folk/pagan lyrical themes. An example is the countless people who call Nightwish "symphonic metal" or "melodic metal" when in reality the band is a power metal band with what overtime has been identified as "symphonic" elements. These "symphonic" elements can range from anything like having cheesy MIDI keyboard strings to having a mini orchestra in your band like Haggard. But to call a band simply "symphonic metal" is a bit useless in describing the actual genre of a band, since typically the "symphonic" aspects are an add on to the band's actual genre (power metal, death metal etc.).

So what genre do Haggard and Therion (from Aarab Zaraq onwards) play? What do you call the common sound played by the likes of Epica, Delain, Diabulus In Musica, Angtoria and (post-Mother Earth) Within Temptation? Or what the likes of Saturnian and Septicflesh (last 2 albums) are doing?
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"I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "How does he know what I'm thinking?" Well I know everything, and so does your internet service provider."
"I can hope my ass is made of ice cream, but that don't m
M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1857

Age: 28
From: Australia

  19.11.2014 at 09:02
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 19.11.2014 at 01:07

Nah, I was just referring to how far offtopic this has gone. It's a topic on symphonic metal which has mostly had talk of melodeath in it (of which I contributed too).

I wanted to find the thread for melodeath (I hope that's the right term) and post about symphonic metal, but there doesn't seem to be one.
Maybe this should be it.
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"I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "How does he know what I'm thinking?" Well I know everything, and so does your internet service provider."
"I can hope my ass is made of ice cream, but that don't m
Wingtorte

Posts: 79

Age: 29
From: Canada
  19.11.2014 at 16:42
Written by M C Vice on 19.11.2014 at 09:00

Written by Wingtorte on 19.11.2014 at 01:04

Symphonic metal is not technically a genre unto itself in the same sense that power metal, death metal or black metal are. In this sense its the same as people who define Ensiferum as "folk metal" and Wintersun as "melodic death metal" despite that if you strip away the lyrics and keyboards, musically the bands are very similar and fall within the melodic death metal spectrum. The primary difference between the two is Ensiferum's use of folk instrument MIDI samples in combination with folk/pagan lyrical themes. An example is the countless people who call Nightwish "symphonic metal" or "melodic metal" when in reality the band is a power metal band with what overtime has been identified as "symphonic" elements. These "symphonic" elements can range from anything like having cheesy MIDI keyboard strings to having a mini orchestra in your band like Haggard. But to call a band simply "symphonic metal" is a bit useless in describing the actual genre of a band, since typically the "symphonic" aspects are an add on to the band's actual genre (power metal, death metal etc.).

So what genre do Haggard and Therion (from Aarab Zaraq onwards) play? What do you call the common sound played by the likes of Epica, Delain, Diabulus In Musica, Angtoria and (post-Mother Earth) Within Temptation? Or what the likes of Saturnian and Septicflesh (last 2 albums) are doing?


Septicflesh are and always have been a death metal band. Again read what I said about symphonic as descriptor rather than a sub-genre unto itself. Stylistically Septicflesh still have more in common with the Greek black/death metal scene than they do with Nightwish, just as Nightwish has more in common with bands like Strato than they do Septicflesh. Those elements have grown overwhelmingly in the last couple of albums, but it doesn't change the fact that Septicflesh's sound is still firmly planted in the Greek black/death metal genre. Epica are power metal just as Nightwish are, and I've been at festivals where Delain were playing but steered well clear given the number of teenaged girls flocking to them so I honestly have no motivation to care what they sound like. Haggard again have their roots in death metal for the majority of their albums. The thing that makes Haggard unique though is that Nasseri is surrounded by classically trained musicians actually playing the instruments they're trained in instead of going nuts on a Korg. In that sense I've always considered them to be crossing over more into the realm of neoclassical like At Vance than simply "symphonic" which generally describes the degree to which a band becomes keyboard-driven in many cases. Not in the same guitar-driven way as more traditional neoclassical bands, but the mini orchestra essentially plays the same role.
M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1857

Age: 28
From: Australia

  20.11.2014 at 09:14
Written by Wingtorte on 19.11.2014 at 16:42

Septicflesh are and always have been a death metal band. Again read what I said about symphonic as descriptor rather than a sub-genre unto itself. Stylistically Septicflesh still have more in common with the Greek black/death metal scene than they do with Nightwish, just as Nightwish has more in common with bands like Strato than they do Septicflesh. Those elements have grown overwhelmingly in the last couple of albums, but it doesn't change the fact that Septicflesh's sound is still firmly planted in the Greek black/death metal genre. Epica are power metal just as Nightwish are, and I've been at festivals where Delain were playing but steered well clear given the number of teenaged girls flocking to them so I honestly have no motivation to care what they sound like. Haggard again have their roots in death metal for the majority of their albums. The thing that makes Haggard unique though is that Nasseri is surrounded by classically trained musicians actually playing the instruments they're trained in instead of going nuts on a Korg. In that sense I've always considered them to be crossing over more into the realm of neoclassical like At Vance than simply "symphonic" which generally describes the degree to which a band becomes keyboard-driven in many cases. Not in the same guitar-driven way as more traditional neoclassical bands, but the mini orchestra essentially plays the same role.

The last Septicflesh album is hardly death metal, I still call The Great Mass symphonic death, but just symphonic for Titan. And while Septicflesh and Nightwish, of whom I only consider the 1st end last albums to be symphonic rather than symphonic power, have little in common stylisticly, neither do Candlemass and Seidr, both doom bands. It just means that symphonic metal is a varied genre.
I've seen more references to Epica being gothic rather than power, which is what I've seen Delain and Within Temptation (including latter stuff) refered to as, as well. I wouldn't call Epica power metal, but I wouldn't object to it, either.
Haggard don't have much death left in their sound, despite their origins, same as Therions, being in death metal. And using real orchestral/classical instruments instead of synths isn't unique anymore. Septicflesh have used the Prague Philharmonic (I think that's who they used) on their last 2 albums. Nightwish have used an orchestra (London Phil., I think) onevery album after Century child, which also had some real orchestrations. Epica's string sections are real on some albums, not sure if it's all, though. And Therion have used real orchestras and choirs since Vovin.
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"I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "How does he know what I'm thinking?" Well I know everything, and so does your internet service provider."
"I can hope my ass is made of ice cream, but that don't m

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