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The original post

Posted by on 10.11.2006 at 22:01
I wasn't sure about posting this.. But I'm really willing to see other people's opinions in this situation than just my schoolmates.

Here's something to discuss:
- What kind of action should different big nations and unions (UN, USA, EU, etc.) actually take in the different situations that are happening over there?
- On who's side are you? Israel's or Palestine's? Why?
- What should be done on Iran? How could we be sure of the true intentions of Iran's nuclear plans?
- What do you think about Iraq's current situation? Was Saddams death penalty justified?
- How non-religious would you consider the different conflicts?
- Would you consider peace in the Middle-East as a realistic dream?

Please, discuss. Oh, and remember, no spamming, no stupidity what so ever. State your opinions calmly and try to be an adult.



Page 22 of 22

deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4146
From: Australia

  14.08.2014 at 02:13
Written by Akram on 13.08.2014 at 19:27


The term "Arab world" or "Islamic world" is only a description that in fact has nothing to do with the notion of unity and its obligations.


Totally agree. However where they find it in their interest, they do act together. The Persian Gulf States were all glad to support Sunni rebels in Lybia and Syria and they were all glad to crush Shia rebels in Bahrain.


Quote:
The Muslim Arab countries were introduced to the nation state attaining independence. So, now they play according to their private interests just like all the countries. Well, yes, those private interests can be of religious or sectarian nature. However, this doesn't mean they are doing it for the mere love of Allah. It's all about influence and power even through foreign affairs.



Totally agree again! However it's interesting there is not even condemnation of atrocities commited by the Islamic State (aka ISIS/ISIL) let alone any active role. They will jump to condemn Israel though.

Hence I suspect there are at least elements if not whole Persian Gulf State governments that secretly support the Islamic State. And some are not so secret - Qatar hasn't exactly hidden it's involvement in supporting various nasty jihadi groups in Syria and Libya.



Quote:

KSA specifically supports Salafism. Al Saud took over Mecca for they knew they would get huge economical benefit, let alone the political influence. I don't think they even care about religion, yet they had to collaborate with the Wahhabis in order to accomplish that and here resides the religious aspect, the gown they had to put on, the Wahabbi Salafism.

A monarchy claiming it applies Islam which is supposedly against monarchy!
This is how I define KSA



Fair assessment indeed!



I think a lot of the Middle East's problems lie with the collapse of Arab and Iranian secular nationalism and their replacement by Persian Gulf state sponsored fundamentalism.


In the past KSA and the other Persian Gulf states were nothing. Arab political power was wielded by the nationalist Arabs led by Egypt. Religion was nowhere near as important - after all Sunni Egypt had a political union with Alawite led Syria (United Arab Republic). Iran played an important role too - for example the Iranians were heavily involved in fight against pro-Egyptian Arab nationalists. Indeed Iran and KSA were allied in this instance.

The Arab gulf states were far smaller players here and treaded carefully. For example KSA might finance Egypt's military against Israel but at the same time not support Egypt's actions in Yemen civil war.

Since 1990s we've had Arab secular nationalism collapse and replaced by Islamic fundamentalism funded and supported by Persian Gulf states. And as such we are getting a lot of failed states - Libya, Iraq, Syria and Yemen is returning back to failed state (it never really worked as a country in first place and was only getting it's act together in 1990s). Lebanon which was not Arab Nationalist has also degenerated back to a failed state.

Egypt is under pressure from Islamists - there have been attacks on Egyptian forces in both Sinai and from the Libyan border and the political situation is failed. Algeria is the only remaining Arab Nationalist country with anything even close to peace - all thanks to an extremely brutal counter-insurgency fought by the Algerians against fundamentalists in the 1990s.


There have always been wars in this part of the world and not just against Israel (Yemen civil war, Iran-Iraq, Libya-Egypt) but they were generally conventional wars in which civilians could live in relative peace. The new kind of warfare practiced in Middle East results in perpetual terror - car bombs, insurgents etc.

The insurgents are getting more fundamentalist and more barbaric. They've gone a long way from Muhajadeen in Afghanistan to current batch of blood thristy psychopaths. The new fundamentalists ala Boko Haram, Islamic State and al-Shabaab make Al Qaeda look positively peaceful. Indeed Al Qaeda has disowned Islamic State as far too extremist.

And in the end it all boils down to funding from oil rich Persian Gulf states, especially KSA and Qatar.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4146
From: Australia

  02.10.2014 at 06:39
Saw this on another forum with regards to current situation in Iraq-Syria:

Quote:
'Clear As Mud'

"Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle-East? Let me explain. We support the Iraqi government in its fight against Islamic State (IS/ISIL/ISIS). We don't like IS but IS is supported by Saudi Arabia whom we do like. We don't like President Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but not IS, which is also fighting against him.

"We don't like Iran, but the Iranian government supports the Iraqi gov't against IS. So, some of our friends support our enemies and some of our enemies are our friends, and some of our enemies are fighting our other enemies, whom we don't want to lose, but we don't our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.

"If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they might be replaced by people we like even less. And, all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists who weren't actually there until we went in to drive them out - do you understand now?"


Sums it up pretty well.
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38122

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  02.10.2014 at 23:17
Turkey will let US fighter jets use their bases and parliament say YES that Turkish army can fight whit ISIS?
I think it will be best if Turkish army take over and arrest and execute erdogan and his supporters and go way what Europe needs, otherwise, there can be civil war in Turkey between islam and western supporters .... seems Ankara made some deal whit isis? c mon Turkey can use heavy cannons and haubices and pound isis positions from distances and when isis be defeted independent Kurdistan must be made in Iraq and Syria , what is Iraq ... fake country made by brits ... mid east needs dictators, what they do kill islam terrorsists as Mubarak did whit silam brotherhood, west say its act and violation of humen wrights but in name of peace its better ... screw Siria, if Turkey falls, what can happen in Europe, remember Turkey has nukes and modern American guns what they gave ... problem is in religion same as in people. N Europe vs S Europe where are more freedom, in atheistic scandi or chatolicistic Spain? we should work to make Turkey be 90% atheistic
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4146
From: Australia

  06.10.2014 at 03:53
I agree Middle East and Turkey is better under secular dictators that fundamentalists.

Quote:
remember Turkey has nukes


Turkey doesn't have nuclear weapons.

Quote:
chatolicistic Spain


Apparently Church attendance in Spain is pretty low.


Freedom in Scandinavia is awesome - you murder someone and you do no prison time. You murder 77 kids and get 20 years at the most (meanwhile a pedophile in Spain got several hundred years in prison). What a great society the Scandinavians have.
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38122

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  06.10.2014 at 13:56
Deadone
Turkey has US gave them didn't they, and US has nuke base there?

Yes but ppl believe and church has power, even worsth church power has in Poland, and orthoxox lands

Is wrong whit this yes, but we have best personal freedonm, much more as Ausie has -... ausie ppl in Luleå as I know, most are religious conservative assholes, in English speakers in Luleå FB group, I asked who will go to wasp concert, they banned me and said we don't need white anglo saxon protestants, sexual perws and Satanists in the group , whyle swe folk laught about this shit ....
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 527
From: Israel

  06.10.2014 at 15:38
Written by deadone on 06.10.2014 at 03:53

I agree Middle East and Turkey is better under secular dictators that fundamentalists.

Quote:
remember Turkey has nukes


Turkey doesn't have nuclear weapons.



They do as a part of NATO's nuclear sharing policy toghther with Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands.

Scandinavia is awesome and you do sit in prison for murder (obviously). Would be nicer without all the political correctness and immigration there.
----
‎"If you can't change your mind - are you sure you still have one?" - Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38122

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  06.10.2014 at 20:15
Written by Candlemass on 06.10.2014 at 15:38

Written by deadone on 06.10.2014 at 03:53

I agree Middle East and Turkey is better under secular dictators that fundamentalists.

Quote:
remember Turkey has nukes


Turkey doesn't have nuclear weapons.



They do as a part of NATO's nuclear sharing policy toghther with Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands.

Scandinavia is awesome and you do sit in prison for murder (obviously). Would be nicer without all the political correctness and immigration there.


yes but Poland, Romania and Baltics also needs nukes even more as Turkey does and Turkey also has patriot missiles as US gives them....
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 527
From: Israel

  06.10.2014 at 23:35
Written by Bad English on 06.10.2014 at 20:15

yes but Poland, Romania and Baltics also needs nukes even more as Turkey does and Turkey also has patriot missiles as US gives them....


No idea why Turkey needs nukes or the Netherlands for that matter. I think Patriot missiles are stationed in Poland too.
Any state bordering with Russia these days feels threatened by Russia's policy makers latest decisions, but I reckon I a strong back from NATO is preferable (could you imagine countries like Norway or Netherlands sticking their neck out for Lithuania?), the spread of nuclear weapons and the probability of nuclear war are not favorable ones.
----
‎"If you can't change your mind - are you sure you still have one?" - Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38122

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  07.10.2014 at 00:59
Written by Candlemass on 06.10.2014 at 23:35

Written by Bad English on 06.10.2014 at 20:15

yes but Poland, Romania and Baltics also needs nukes even more as Turkey does and Turkey also has patriot missiles as US gives them....


No idea why Turkey needs nukes or the Netherlands for that matter. I think Patriot missiles are stationed in Poland too.
Any state bordering with Russia these days feels threatened by Russia's policy makers latest decisions, but I reckon I a strong back from NATO is preferable (could you imagine countries like Norway or Netherlands sticking their neck out for Lithuania?), the spread of nuclear weapons and the probability of nuclear war are not favorable ones.


I think they will do it because if no then whole NATO and Europe nations super power be so week ... anyway this Rus issue is because ppl was so week and did nt see shit coming, it must be deal whit it and make rus week as possible after soviet union collapsed and it should be westernized already
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4146
From: Australia

  07.10.2014 at 01:20
Written by Candlemass on 06.10.2014 at 15:38

They do as a part of NATO's nuclear sharing policy toghther with Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands.



They do but the weapons are under US lock and key. In case of WWIII, the Americans dole out the weapons but they control the arming codes. Basically the NATO partners provide delivery platforms but have no control over the weapons.

I don't know how feasible it will be in the future as the US is debating as to whether to update ol' B61 freefall nukes at all.

If they get scrapped, the whole nuclear sharing policy goes the way of the dodo as there's nothing for allies to field.

Written by Candlemass on 06.10.2014 at 23:35

No idea why Turkey needs nukes or the Netherlands for that matter. I think Patriot missiles are stationed in Poland too.



It's a Cold War relic

These nukes were tactical (battlefield) weapons and were designed for destroying massive Soviet army formations that no longer exist.

They're not city killer strategic weapons.

Quote:
Any state bordering with Russia these days feels threatened by Russia's policy makers latest decisions, but I reckon I a strong back from NATO is preferable (could you imagine countries like Norway or Netherlands sticking their neck out for Lithuania?), the spread of nuclear weapons and the probability of nuclear war are not favorable ones.



A Finnish military analysis about 2-3 years ago made the conclusion that if the Russians took over Baltic states (Lativa, Estonia, Lithuania), NATO would do nothing. There wasn't much support in continental Europe and especially Germany for defending these countries. They are apparently viewed as strategically unimportant and their large Russian minorities means they're potentially problematic.

However it was concluded an invasion of Poland would trigger NATO action.
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38122

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  07.10.2014 at 01:59
Deadone - nuke treaths comes atm from other country not from arabs , CIA will do its job in nuke case and there wont eb detonation, if there be treaths we will see invasion of marines
Turkey can be dangerous, if Erdogan became more extreme , plutonium what is in nukes can be stolen

well now we have cold war as well even it don't calls, what Rus do I say we need nukes in each NATO country to defend our selfs from aggression as it happens in Ukr , unless Rus wont be stable govemnet we need nukes, but I think nukes can have only NATO countries, nobody else,

There are not so huge rus minioroty in the Baltics, 50% come from other ussr republics, I mean ex as kirkiztan, Georgia and so on, and you don't know much about Baltics
It was 2-3 years ago and now situation are changed , not defending means loosing power, and ger and fra is famous to suck cremlin dick, I wonder can east Berliners sleep in peace ... since theoretically east Ger belongs to Rus (even remember Kenigsber should be give back in 1995 IMO since rules said soviets can keep it till 95 ) shame west is week , feed enemy whit moder technologies
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing

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