Written by Edmund Fogg on 02.11.2012 at 21:38

Yeah, but that is a decision that we cannot take for the band. If the band chooses to distribute free digital copies, then I agree with you. If the band absolutly wants to sell their products, then the arguments has no value.

yahtzee. i'll cop to downloading albums - but if i like it, or even if i just listen to it a lot (Panzer Division Marduk), i'll buy it.

I still buy original albums, I have all the albums that I love on CD. I actually bought Grayceon's albums this year just to help the band out. Also did the same with Kylesa.

I can't buy everything, but I try to help bands out whenever I can. I'm not an hypocrite, I also download a lot of stuff but if I like it, I'll buy the original eventually, might be two months or two years later but I do.

But this might have to do with the fact that I like to collect them and have the artwork, booklet, etc. Other people are not as interested or don't even think about that.

Written by BloodTears on 04.11.2012 at 19:06

I still buy original albums, I have all the albums that I love on CD. I actually bought Grayceon's albums this year just to help the band out. Also did the same with Kylesa.

I can't buy everything, but I try to help bands out whenever I can. I'm not an hypocrite, I also download a lot of stuff but if I like it, I'll buy the original eventually, might be two months or two years later but I do.

But this might have to do with the fact that I like to collect them and have the artwork, booklet, etc. Other people are not as interested or don't even think about that.

I'm the same way basically. I'll buy the albums I really enjoyed and love, even if it takes a while. I still have some albums (that I really enjoyed and love) to buy. And I also buy them just to have the artwork and booklet and to see the work that went into making it.

My problem consists of three dimensions: 1- im broke university student with low income anyway 2-i have no place where to store cd's that i would like to have (i move a lot ) 3-its hard to get any metal cd here (except bnds like Maiden,Metallica...etc)...so how can i help the band i really like? except promotion to other interested people ,i cant do anything...

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 05.11.2012 at 12:44

so how can i help the band i really like? except promotion to other interested people ,i cant do anything...

simple, pay for the downloads from their bandcamp site

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 05.11.2012 at 13:21

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 05.11.2012 at 12:44

so how can i help the band i really like? except promotion to other interested people ,i cant do anything...

simple, pay for the downloads from their bandcamp site

which also lead to problem -> no good income=no money -> how the hell to pay?... beside such e-payment systems dont work in my country (the terrible lack of laws-not all metalheads live in good organised countries you know)...

Most of the troubles come from mainstreamists I guess, am I right?

@Angel: then you can stream it. And get yourself free digital copies. Thats what I do and you'd be surprised at the numrrous bands that offer their stuff at 0$ or name your price.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 05.11.2012 at 22:48

@Angel: then you can stream it. And get yourself free digital copies. Thats what I do and you'd be surprised at the numrrous bands that offer their stuff at 0$ or name your price.

Yeah like Cautiva offers Human for free download, but still... I don't see how that is contributing, in any way lol. You're still not giving them a dime for their work.

Written by Guib on 05.11.2012 at 22:53

Yeah like Cautiva offers Human for free download, but still... I don't see how that is contributing, in any way lol. You're still not giving them a dime for their work.

Can lead to buying future records and merch, going to to see them live, spreading their music via word of mouth / reviews making their existence better known which would lead to further sales etc.

They choose to distribute their music freely. For them, just the fact that you listen, enjoy and share is enough contribution. But other bands demand a $ contribution. That is the meaning of the comment I said to Void. We cannot choose for the band if sharing is enough or not.

Written by Guest on 05.11.2012 at 22:56

Written by Guib on 05.11.2012 at 22:53

Yeah like Cautiva offers Human for free download, but still... I don't see how that is contributing, in any way lol. You're still not giving them a dime for their work.

Can lead to buying future records and merch, going to to see them live, spreading their music via word of mouth / reviews making their existence better known which would lead to further sales etc.

yeah exactly ''CAN'' or can lead to someone always taking the music for free also. Its a two sided blade. I understand your point, but theres no better contribution than a monetary one... They need the money to keep recording.

Written by Guib on 05.11.2012 at 23:04


yeah exactly ''CAN'' or can lead to someone always taking the music for free also. Its a two sided blade. I understand your point, but theres no better contribution than a monetary one... They need the money to keep recording.

Between the choice of someone not paying anything at all and not hearing it and giving it for free with an option of paying and having someone listen to and possibly publicise the kind of record that would never make a profit anyway, it's quite obvious that the latter is the better option.

Written by Guest on 05.11.2012 at 23:46

Written by Guib on 05.11.2012 at 23:04


yeah exactly ''CAN'' or can lead to someone always taking the music for free also. Its a two sided blade. I understand your point, but theres no better contribution than a monetary one... They need the money to keep recording.

Between the choice of someone not paying anything at all and not hearing it and giving it for free with an option of paying and having someone listen to and possibly publicise the kind of record that would never make a profit anyway, it's quite obvious that the latter is the better option.

Like I said, I understand your point. But if all fans were doing so, there would be no band. Im very aware some people just can't afford or just cant find... I get that, but Im just saying those who can, should not download for free *at all* If you can pay for it, screw the dl. And you know, those who do have the money and still fucking download, well its stealing the band. Im pretty sure the topic here was not, at first, meant for those who can't buy a cd... but for those who can and just don't give a single crap about contributing.

Written by Guib on 06.11.2012 at 00:00

those who do have the money and still fucking download, well its stealing the band.

These discussions are usually pretty cyclical but I will say that this statement above is incorrect if the band chooses to offer it for free. You can steal what if offered to you for nothing. That's simple fact, no one should confuse this issue.

Written by Guest on 06.11.2012 at 00:03

Written by Guib on 06.11.2012 at 00:00

those who do have the money and still fucking download, well its stealing the band.

These discussions are usually pretty cyclical but I will say that this statement above is incorrect if the band chooses to offer it for free. You can steal what if offered to you for nothing. That's simple fact, no one should confuse this issue.

Yeah you're right on that. But its not a majority of bands who does that and I can't blame them for wanting money for what they've created. But Yeah if they give it away, I guess its their problem, but if a band gives an album, he better not complain about not having ''the funds'' you know.

Written by Guib on 06.11.2012 at 00:05


Yeah you're right on that. But its not a majority of bands who does that and I can't blame them for wanting money for what they've created. But Yeah if they give it away, I guess its their problem, but if a band gives an album, he better not complain about not having ''the funds'' you know.

I'd say it's pretty common for newer bands, bands will never make any kind of reasonable sale and bands releasing certain kinds of album or EP. I can't see why self respecting band making obscure metal or some such would moan about not getting money from it if they opted to give music away. They probably see it as a means to an end eventually, or are doing it because they want a fan base over financial gain.

I don't even see what the band's choice has to do with it, other than to ease your conscience. The effect is the same whether they provide it for free or not. I don't feel the slightest sting when I download music. I know it doesn't take anything from the artists' income, because I use a certain part of my budget on music anyway. I wouldn't buy any more if I didn't download, because I still have limited resources. If anything, my interest in music might wane in absence of new stimuli and wider knowledge, and I'd never come to know how much good stuff there is to buy. And I know for a fact my reviews, forum posts and lists online have turned several people on to several bands over the years, which wouldn't have happened if I wasn't actively into new music (which practically means downloading). But that's the best case scenario, and only an added bonus.

No matter what the licensing corporations claim, you cannot "steal" "intellectual property." The notion is absurd. We need to devise smart ways for artists, authors and other such professionals to make a profit from their work, but it can no longer work by controlling access to and putting a price on something immaterial like knowledge or culture. Not only is it practically impossible and leads to situations like Pantheist's, where they're dependent on the goodwill of consumers who don't really need to pay anything, neither is it very defensible morally. If you release a piece of music, it becomes part of our intellectual and artistic culture and you can't pick and choose who gets to hear it. That is completely separate of the issue that everyone should be rewarded for their work.

The above also applies the medicine, for example. And yes, I vote for the Pirate Party.

Written by IronAngel on 06.11.2012 at 00:35

I don't even see what the band's choice has to do with it, other than to ease your conscience. The effect is the same whether they provide it for free or not. I don't feel the slightest sting when I download music. I know it doesn't take anything from the artists' income, because I use a certain part of my budget on music anyway. I wouldn't buy any more if I didn't download, because I still have limited resources. If anything, my interest in music might wane in absence of new stimuli and wider knowledge, and I'd never come to know how much good stuff there is to buy. And I know for a fact my reviews, forum posts and lists online have turned several people on to several bands over the years, which wouldn't have happened if I wasn't actively into new music (which practically means downloading).

You don't have to download to be actively into new music what are you saying ? I don't download at all, not the slightest. In fact I stopped downloading a long long time ago before I even knew what Sepultura was, I don't even download games (and yeah don't tell me they don't need money they're already rich or this shit ) theres alot of underground game company out there try games like Divine Divinity, Drakensang, Avadon or Legend of Grimrock for instance. And I can say im actively searching for new music all the time, Yeah I do listen to music on the web, but I never download albums. If I like something, I'll most likely buy it through internet if I can't find it in a store. But I don't see how searching for new music ''Practically means downloading''. It is nice though, that even if you download you allow yourself a budget for music, but keep in mind that not everyone does that. You can't apply your reality to everyone's. I know people who download tons and don't give a shit and would never pay for music, games, movies but hey, people put their time in creating such things...I guess sometimes you gotta put yourself in their shoes, contribution is essential. anyways.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 05.11.2012 at 22:48

@Angel: then you can stream it. And get yourself free digital copies. Thats what I do and you'd be surprised at the numrrous bands that offer their stuff at 0$ or name your price.

no i know that but Marcel's objection was about paying to download....i can get whatever i want for 0 $ legally or otherwise but that was not the point... the point was to support a band by byinng

Written by Guib on 06.11.2012 at 01:02

It is nice though, that even if you download you allow yourself a budget for music, but keep in mind that not everyone does that. You can't apply your reality to everyone's. I know people who download tons and don't give a shit and would never pay for music, games, movies but hey, people put their time in creating such things...I guess sometimes you gotta put yourself in their shoes, contribution is essential. anyways.

I don't see why I should feel bad for what other people do, though. I am responsible only for my actions, and I'm the one who's got to live with them.

Your point that not everyone cares enough to financially support the immaterial products they enjoy (music in this case) only supports my argument. The current model is flawed: people don't have to pay if they don't want to, and for the average consumer there's little incentive to want to. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, nice or sad, it's the reality. Guilt-tripping people, making public appeals like Pantheist's and raising awareness are temporary remedies that might improve the situation for a while. However, they won't save the entire business (insofar as it needs saving). You can keep moralizing and daydreaming about a world where everyone is a saint, or you can brainstorm constructive, innovative ways to change the business.

In the gaming scene, Kickstarter funding has already become a real possibility. Michael Gira sold demos to fund the recording of his 2010 Swans album. There are plenty of possibilities to fund art and entertainment other than the current model which, like it or not, has run into serious problems because of technological advances. And that's really my main point: we can't go back on the Internet, torrent services, file hosting sites, etc. Instead of raging at the Pandora's Box, it would be more productive to find ways to deal with it.


As for having to download, I guess that comes down to individual preference. My monthly income is 500?. My rent is 315?. Electricity (don't remember), the Internet (10?), my train ticket (about 65?), Spotify subscription (5?) and food. That doesn't leave a whole lot of extra for concerts, CDs, games, beer, books, membership fees in academic societies, and the occasional necessities like clothes and toilet paper. (Granted, I live with a woman so some of those costs are split.) Now, I'm the kind of person who's all in if he's into something. I wouldn't settle to check out ten new albums a year. Right now my 2012 list is 250+ albums. Most of those I heard "legally" through Spotify (not that downloading is illegal either), but plenty I also downloaded when they leaked. Why? Because I'm interested in music and I want to hear what's out there.

I suppose I "could" confine myself to albums that the band or label has made available for free, or that are on Spotify. But that would imply I actually felt I was doing something wrong. I don't, and there's absolutely no negative consequence for anyone either way. I do listen to albums on Spotify as soon as they're available even if I have a digital or physical copy, because I figure they get compensation (however miniscule) for the times they're streamed. That's how I do things. I don't expect others to follow my example, and neither do I feel responsible or bad if they leech on the system. I can't in all sincerity blame people for looking out for their own interests.

Written by IronAngel on 06.11.2012 at 01:41

Written by Guib on 06.11.2012 at 01:02

What you said makes alot of sense in all honesty. But personally, I would not feel right, like you said its very personal. But like I said, I don't blame YOU specifically since you do contribute to the music arts. Its just I feel sad when I see that some people really just don't give a fuck about artists you know.
Anyways its true that with the internet and everything a change wouldn't be so bad, but still... We can't go back, and its easier than ever to get music for free. Well its been nice to see your opinion on the matter.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 05.11.2012 at 22:48

@Angel: then you can stream it. And get yourself free digital copies. Thats what I do and you'd be surprised at the numrrous bands that offer their stuff at 0$ or name your price.

Yes. I always try to connect with some local Metal bands in Cardiff( sign-up or meet them) and get a free digital copies and then obnoxiously promote it( ofc, if they sound awesome!). I despise to download a debut full length album from a fresh metal band who're on verge to explode in the scene and grab some really good fans. To the extent, yeah, you can pay for download on bandcamp...but it's unfair to download album illegally.

I agree that we can't go back to the physical medium of selling CD's exclusively. the whole reason vinyls are so cheap now is because there are few people who buy them anymore. as posting costs money and slashes the band's income I believe paid downloads would be the best way to go along with pressing a small amount of CD's for the people who prefer physical copies, as it does not cost that much to put it on the web, but after that you can't control how people distribute those files between them, because they will do it anyway.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 31.10.2012 at 08:13

Written by Guest on 31.10.2012 at 07:49

Having to spend 2000+ euros to get a decent sounding album seems like it wouldn't be necessary this day in age.

It is when you want decent mastering and such. And good home recording equipment isn't cheap either

2000Euros is pretty cheap for an album. We're looking at about the same price for our album too. I thought bands in Europe would have to spend a lot more than what we do here. I know bands here who spent close to 3k euros for an album as well.

Anyway I know it's really hard for bands to survive, coz being in a band is really an expensive ordeal. But then again I think a metal band is already catering to a small crowd, and you can't expect people to buy every metal release, coz frankly there are a shit load of releases out there.
It would be impossible for me to buy the album for every band I have listened to, I wouldn't really have the money. I just try and support the bands I like a lot and have their music constantly on my playlists, coz I want to see more music from them. It's a tough scene we're in.

I'm sure it works differently in Europe, but all of us here work day jobs. If we're full time musicians, we would work sessions and play other gigs to survive. If you're part of a metal band, there is no way you can survive. You've gotta have side gigs, be it teaching music, playing sessions or something else.
All the money we make from the band goes into making an album, travelling sometimes for shows and any expenditure that the band might have. We don't take money from the band for personal use, so basically we don't make anything from the band, we do it coz we love doing it.

Written by Guest on 05.11.2012 at 20:54

Most of the troubles come from mainstreamists I guess, am I right?

No.

Written by Guest on 06.11.2012 at 14:39

Written by Guest on 05.11.2012 at 20:54

Most of the troubles come from mainstreamists I guess, am I right?

No.

would you like ro give some explanations?

Written by Guest on 06.11.2012 at 17:34

would you like ro give some explanations?

The ingress of this topic is a quote from an underground funeral-doom-band-gone-progressive-gothic or whatever, and despite good reviews, feedback and positive attention they're not making profit with their latest album. That would suggest that it's the fans of underground music that are part of the problem. You will note that mainstream bands have very little difficulty staying above water.

That, and it's oh-so-convenient to push the problem on someone else's shoulders.

However, it's understandable, if ironic, that bands who cater to a more underground audience do poorly. It's not just because their audience is small, but because that audience is also more likely to listen to music more than the average consumer. Yet that doesn't mean they have more to spend on it. So while an average mainstream listener can easily support his favorite five bands and buy all their records, the average underground music enthusiast is lucky to spare a few dimes for each band he finds interesting. It's self-evident that supporting the few hundred bands you really like is much harder than supporting the dozen bands you like. So it's not that metal or underground music fans are somehow less dedicated than others; it's that they spread their support thin.

That's one reason I see something like Kickstarter working for bands. I imagine many fans, myself included, would be happy to participate in funding an album before it's recorded. That way you can focus your efforts where it's needed and you get to see a very tangible result of your support.

Written by IronAngel on 06.11.2012 at 18:26

What he said.

Thank you.

Written by IronAngel on 06.11.2012 at 18:26

Written by Guest on 06.11.2012 at 17:34

would you like ro give some explanations?

That's one reason I see something like Kickstarter working for bands. I imagine many fans, myself included, would be happy to participate in funding an album before it's recorded. That way you can focus your efforts where it's needed and you get to see a very tangible result of your support.

I actually love this Idea, just wanted to say.