Written by Dane Train on 11.04.2009 at 20:27

Where did this blessing and curse come from?

Evolution my friend! Just as our thumbs, our hair, our eyes, our toes, our tongue, our teeth, and you get the point.

Written by Clintagräm on 11.04.2009 at 20:54

Written by Dane Train on 11.04.2009 at 20:27

Where did this blessing and curse come from?

Evolution my friend! Just as our thumbs, our hair, our eyes, our toes, our tongue, our teeth, and you get the point.

Then how is it a blessing? I don't get how evolution is a blessing. shouldn't a blessing make things better?

Written by Dane Train on 11.04.2009 at 21:02

Written by Clintagräm on 11.04.2009 at 20:54

Written by Dane Train on 11.04.2009 at 20:27

Where did this blessing and curse come from?

Evolution my friend! Just as our thumbs, our hair, our eyes, our toes, our tongue, our teeth, and you get the point.

Then how is it a blessing? I don't get how evolution is a blessing. shouldn't a blessing make things better?

Indeed, I consider my existence a blessing. I am self-aware, I can enjoy metal, reading, my friends and family, love, joy, etc. On the whole, evolution may not be a blessing for the masses as it requires immense amounts of death, and has developed our minds to the point of creating enough weapons to kill each other many times over with and, but on the level of the individual (some, but not all) it is a blessing. A mother holding her child, or a man climbing a mountain may consider (if given proper thought) the evolution of their self-awareness a blessing, while someone who has lost a loved one or given up on life may question such a "blessing," which then it is considered a curse.

In which way is evolution not making things better anyway? And what are these 'things'?

Written by Twilight on 12.04.2009 at 13:43

In which way is evolution not making things better anyway? And what are these 'things'?

We can only talk about "things" being "better" because we are aware. Our Western, literate culture has lists and categories and we think in "lists of things" of "categories." I would say things, for me, are Metal music, friends, family, food, my taste buds to taste food, my hearing to hear music, the development of writing, my eyes and mind to see and interpret writing and to enjoy it, etc. This is all completely subjective, because life is subjective. You are only you, and no one else. These "things" are "better" because I think that they are.

Written by Clintagräm on 12.04.2009 at 21:19

Written by Twilight on 12.04.2009 at 13:43

In which way is evolution not making things better anyway? And what are these 'things'?

We can only talk about "things" being "better" because we are aware. Our Western, literate culture has lists and categories and we think in "lists of things" of "categories." I would say things, for me, are Metal music, friends, family, food, my taste buds to taste food, my hearing to hear music, the development of writing, my eyes and mind to see and interpret writing and to enjoy it, etc. This is all completely subjective, because life is subjective. You are only you, and no one else. These "things" are "better" because I think that they are.

Exactly yes. But the question was more directed to Dane.
Maybe technological progress isn't considered 'good' to everyone. But in that case I'm curious about their reasons why they think it's bad.
In the end technology will always serve us to improve ourselves, extend our lives and get rid of disease.
This is called Transhumanism.
Although I do not agree with every single thing, I think this is an interesting philosophy.

@twilight: well, i do agree that technology does point out stuff about how human has evolved, specilly in terms of intelligence, but as you may know or may have head, this has been "debated" (is that a word?) by saying that that same technology an newer stuff will destroy us. you now, like having robots do everything and us becomes lazy (watch the movie Wall-E), or like making robots so intelliget that they finally overcome us humans and take over. stuff like that. maybe that's why this pogress isn't consider 'good' to everyone.

on other stuff, i don't know if this is the right thread to post this but, this s someting that always revolves in my mind: everytime i go out to catch a bus to go to university or wherever i have to go, and i catch someone pass by in a BMW, or a Mercedes-Benz, or any type of luxury car, i just tink to myself: yeah, right, god exists (insert any god here). i mean, if god trylu existed and really cared about all peopl being ok with life, and all having same living conditions, that would actually happen, right? but it doesn't! sure, some christians would say, blame it on the humans having free will. and yes, they are right, but still, being life so crappy as it is, specially in some parts of the wolrd, where hunger just exterminates people, if god does exist, why won't he do anything or the race he created and cares so much about?
just a thought...

Written by tulkas on 13.04.2009 at 16:55

@twilight: well, i do agree that technology does point out stuff about how human has evolved, specilly in terms of intelligence, but as you may know or may have head, this has been "debated" (is that a word?) by saying that that same technology an newer stuff will destroy us. you now, like having robots do everything and us becomes lazy (watch the movie Wall-E), or like making robots so intelliget that they finally overcome us humans and take over. stuff like that. maybe that's why this pogress isn't consider 'good' to everyone.

Of course these dangers exist. But aren't we teaching ourselves already not to mess around with things like that too much?
Just because technology allowed bombs and guns to be invented doesn't mean technology is bad.
You could call humanity bad for the same reason.
And it isn't just technology that will get us to a 'higher level', we will change along with that. Our mind-set that is.

@twilight: yeah, i agree. although i do believe there's a difference between the human being's intelligence, and human being's logic, and imo that riht there is the problem. sure, we can get a man on the moon, and create bombs powerful enough to wipe out the surface of the earth, and that right there is a really big issue. know what i mean? we have the intelligce to do amazing stuff, but somehow lack the logic to see what is really going on. well, something like that, can't really put my thoughts into word right now, so i hope you get what i'm trying to say

That's because unfortunately it's always the stupid people who manage to reach powerful positions.

Written by Twilight on 13.04.2009 at 21:02

That's because unfortunately it's always the stupid people who manage to reach powerful positions.

exactly. because they do it with he want of power and not with the want of doing good

Written by tulkas on 13.04.2009 at 20:31

...

You make great points. We are intelligent enough to make all these things yes, but fail to see or to help each other. I don't think this is a topic for this thread though.

However, you comment on God allowing suffering, that could fit. People suffer a) because they are subjected to suffering from an outside force (see oppression, genocide, ethnocide, forced assimilation, etc.) or b) because they expect too much of life and are unsatisfied by it (see Buddhism, how porn can ruin a sex life, how capitalism can make you unhappy with what you have, etc.)

Personally, I don't ponder the question of why God allows this to happen because a) God does not exist; b) God goes not care/is cruel; c) God cannot do anything about it; or d) God has "plans for us all." So I really don't worry about the God factor. So exit religion, enter spirituality (not just the esoteric, cliche kind) and I think if we all become spiritual and aware of the true worth a human being, we can strive to make the world a better place than it currently is. It is ultimately up to us, I believe.

Written by Clintagräm on 13.04.2009 at 23:45

Written by tulkas on 13.04.2009 at 20:31

...

You make great points. We are intelligent enough to make all these things yes, but fail to see or to help each other. I don't think this is a topic for this thread though.

However, you comment on God allowding suffering, that could fit. People suffer a) because they are subjected to suffering from an outside force (see oppression, genocide, ethnocide, forced assimilation, etc.) or b) because they expect too much of life and are unsatisfied by it (see Buddhism, how porn can ruin a sex life, how capitalism can make you unhappy with what you have, etc.)

Personally, I don't ponder the question of why God allows this to happen because a) God does not exist; b) God goes not care/is cruel; c) God cannot do anything about it; or d) God has "plans for us all." So I really don't worry about the God factor. So exit religion, enter spirituality (not just the esoteric, cliche kind) and I think if we all become spiritual and aware of the true worth a human being, we can strive to make the world a better place than it currently is. It is ultimately up to us, I believe.

exactly. that's what i meant with my post. if that almighty caring beautful god did exist, wouldn't things be a lot different? like you, i don't believe in god, but the fact is i have this thoughts because of all the people that do believe in god and believe that he helps them. and the truth is: no, he doesn't. sure, they, or we, or whoever, couldn't expect for him to fix everything that was shitty in peoples lives, but he could do something, give them some "heavenly power boost" or somethig like that instead of letting them rot in hunger or poverty or any other of those things that kills humans

Here's the thing with that. This isn't God's doing. Like if it were God's doing then there's be huge hands over vaarious places dropping down plague, smashing buildings and setting a whole ton of stuff on fire. Like the system man uses to judge itself, govern itself and handle approrpiation to it's fellow man does this. We allow this to happen God trys to spin it so we all learn from it and try to change it. God interacts as much with us as we do with God is the thing. When it's on a personal level it's more personalized. When it's on a world level it's on a world level.

Basically the problem here is that there is a deal with the whole "free will construct" that puts us in control of fixing and handling things we create as well. This is part of our growth process. The thing with the process in itself for us is that there are ways we can actually fix these problems as beings without God directly comming down and standining the way of war, poverty and destruction.

Poverty stops when we take a refined look at money, cost and spending. The entire system itself that revolves around money (mentality, spending, cost, value, judgement of others over the use of money) doesn't work. We have the ability to find a way to fix that but we are still caught in our own problems with valuing it on the levels we do. God gave us the ability to help ourselves wiht poverty. We do have a planet that can feed and shelter everyone who lives on it. We as beings prevent it.

Wars end when we can finally stop blowing eachother up over things like money, religion, and supremacy. We have the ability to fix our systems and our mentalities that culture has reinforced. Do we? Not really because we're stuck in trying to up hold an old system. God gave us the rational to handle it all, be open, to reason out stuff and to be conscientious of eachother. We don't do it.

Suffering happens because we allow it to happen. God's been there helping us to try to alleviate it but with what we actually value down here due to our thoughts & actions it doesn't really go over at all. God's with us because we can find a way but if we are to learn and grow what help would itbe if God just came in and was like "Alright seriously, *Explative* this! I'm ending here. I'm sure we all had a great time but here's what we have to do now!". We're already capable of finding a way, we just don't to uphold old logic, old constructs and old ways that no longer apply to how things can actually work better.

And yes, idiots get into power but at the same time we also don't ask the right questions. I would like to see an American election where you get an honest run down of who the supporters of the candidates come from (I'm talking corperate and lobbyists). It doesn't work. Aside form that, the two party system is only different by the way the money get's apportioned after the election. As it also stands there's a huge deal with third parties never "really getting the votes to be recognized". It doesn't allow change to happen. No change means we stagnate more as beings. That's not God's doing or God's allowing but more to the idea of our doing and allowing.

I thought this might be interesting:

Quote:
Animals can tell right from wrong

Scientists studying animal behaviour believe they have growing evidence that species ranging from mice to primates are governed by moral codes of conduct in the same way as humans.

Until recently, humans were thought to be the only species to experience complex emotions and have a sense of morality.

But Prof Marc Bekoff, an ecologist at University of Colorado, Boulder, believes that morals are "hard-wired" into the brains of all mammals and provide the "social glue" that allow often aggressive and competitive animals to live together in groups.

He has compiled evidence from around the world that shows how different species of animals appear to have an innate sense of fairness, display empathy and help other animals that are in distress.

His conclusions will provide ammunition for animal welfare groups pushing to have animals treated more humanely, but some experts are sceptical about the extent to which animals can experience complex emotions and social responsibility.

Prof Bekoff, who presents his case in a new book Wild Justice, said: "The belief that humans have morality and animals don't is a long-standing assumption, but there is a growing amount of evidence that is showing us that this simply cannot be the case.

"Just as in humans, the moral nuances of a particular culture or group will be different from another, but they are certainly there. Moral codes are species specific, so they can be difficult to compare with each other or with humans."

Prof Bekoff believes morals developed in animals to help regulate behaviour in social groups of animals such as wolves and primates.

He claims that these rules help to control fighting within the group and encourage co-operative behaviour.

Recent neurology work has also revealed that distantly related mammals such as whales and dolphins have the same structures in their brains that are thought to be responsible for empathy in humans.

Other findings have also suggested that some animals may even be capable of showing empathy with the suffering of other species.

Prof Bekoff, who co-wrote the book with moral philosopher Jessica Pierce, also from the University of Colorado, added: "There are cases of dolphins helping humans to escape from sharks and elephants that have helped antelope escape from enclosures.

"While it is difficult to know for certain that there is cross species empathy, it is hard to argue against it."

His ideas have met with some controversy in the scientific community, but many admit it is difficult to argue that animals do not share many of the psychological qualities previously only attributed to humans.

Professor Frans de Waal, a primate behaviourist at Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, said: "I don't believe animals are moral in the sense we humans are - with well developed and reasoned sense of right and wrong - rather that human morality incorporates a set of psychological tendencies and capacities such as empathy, reciprocity, a desire for co-operation and harmony that are older than our species.

"Human morality was not formed from scratch, but grew out of our primate psychology. Primate psychology has ancient roots, and I agree that other animals show many of the same tendencies and have an intense sociality."


WOLVES

Wolves live in tight-knit social groups that are regulated by strict rules. If a pack grows too large, members are not able to bond closely enough and the pack disintegrates. Wolves also demonstrate fairness.

During play, dominant wolves will "handicap" themselves by engaging in roll reversal with lower ranking wolves, showing submission and allowing them to bite, provided it is not too hard.

Prof Bekoff argues that without a moral code governing their actions, this kind of behaviour would not be possible. If an animal bites too hard, it will initiate a "play bow" to ask forgiveness before play resumes.


COYOTES

In other members of the dog family, play is controlled by similar rules. Among coyotes, cubs which bite too hard are ostracised by the rest of the group and often end up having to leave entirely.

"We looked at the mortality of these young animals who disperse from the group and they have four to five times higher mortality," said Bekoff.

Experiments with domestic dogs, where one animal was given a treat and another denied, have shown that they posses a sense of fairness as they shared their treats.


ELEPHANTS

Elephants are intensely sociable and emotional animals. Research by Iain Douglas Hamilton, from the department of zoology at Oxford University, suggests elephants experience compassion and has found evidence of elephants helping injured or ill members of their herd.

In one case, a Matriarch known as Eleanor fell ill and a female in the herd gently tried to help Eleanor back to her feet, staying with her before she died.

In 2003, a herd of 11 elephants rescued antelope who were being held inside an enclosure in KwaZula-Natal, South Africa.

The matriarch unfastened all of the metal latches holding the gates closed and swung the entrance open allowing the antelope to escape.

This is thought to be a rare example of animals showing empathy for members of another species - a trait previously thought to be the exclusive preserve of mankind.


DIANA MONKEYS

A laboratory experiment trained Diana monkeys to insert a token into a slot to obtain food.

A male who had grown to be adept at the task was found to be helping the oldest female who had not been able to learn how to insert the token.

On three occasion the male monkey picked up tokens she dropped and inserted them into the slot and allowed her to have the food.

As there was no benefit for the male monkey, Prof Bekoff argues that this is a clear example of an animal's actions being driven by some internal moral compass.


CHIMPANZEES

Known to be among the most cognitively advanced of the great apes and our closest cousin, it is perhaps not surprising that scientists should suggest they live by moral codes.

A chimpanzee known as Knuckles - from the Centre for Great Apes in Florida - is the only known captive chimpanzee to suffer from cerebral palsy, which leaves him physically and mentally handicapped.

Scientists have found that other chimpanzees in his group treat him differently and he is rarely subjected to intimidating displays of aggression from older males.

Chimpanzees also demonstrate a sense of justice and those who deviate from the code of conduct of a group are set upon by other members as punishment.


RODENTS

Experiments with rats have shown that they will not take food if they know their actions will cause pain to another rat. In lab tests, rats were given food which then caused a second group of rats to receive an electric shock.

The rats with the food stopped eating rather than see another rat receive a shock. Similarly, mice react more strongly to pain when they have seen another mouse in pain.

Recent research from Switzerland also showed that rats will help a rat, to which it is not related, to obtain food if they themselves have benefited from the charity of others. This reciprocity was thought to be restricted to primates.


BATS

Vampire bats need to drink blood every night but it is common for some not to find any food. Those who are successful in foraging for blood will share their meal with bats who are not successful.

They are more likely to share with bats who had previously shared with them. Prof Bekoff believes this reciprocity is a result of a sense of affiliation that binds groups of animals together.

Some studies have shown that animals experience hormonal changes that lead them to "crave" social interaction.

Biologists have also observed a female Rodrigues fruit-eating bat in Gainesville, Florida, helping another female to give birth by showing the pregnant female the correct birthing position - with head up and feed down.


WHALES

Whales have been found to have spindle cells in their brains. These very large and specialised cells were thought to be restricted to humans and other great apes and appear to play a role in empathy and understanding the feelings of others.

Humpback whales, fin whales, killer whales and sperm whales have all been found to have spindle cells in the same areas of their brains.

They also have three times as many spindle cells compared to humans and are thought to be older in evolutionary terms.

This finding has suggested that complex emotional judgements such as empathy may have evolved considerably earlier in history than previously thought and could be widespread in the animal kingdom.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

Written by Twilight on 29.05.2009 at 11:41

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

An extremely interesting article but I don't understand why it was posted in this thread. Regardless, I'd love to read more into a study like this since, to me, instead of showing "morality" among animals, it really shows that what we do as humans is a product of evolution, and convinces me even more we are more animal that anything, just cognitive on a higher level.

We think ourselves special because we can think about it. However, to believe that this world with everything on it, this solar system, this galaxy, this universe and everything in it, and perhaps more universes were are created just for us? This is not humble.

If this was meant to call forth the question as [a] god being the progenitor for our morality, then I point to an article I posted on sometime back in another thread: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/cohen02.htm.

Written by Clintagräm on 29.05.2009 at 22:02

Written by Twilight on 29.05.2009 at 11:41

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

An extremely interesting article but I don't understand why it was posted in this thread. Regardless, I'd love to read more into a study like this since, to me, instead of showing "morality" among animals, it really shows that what we do as humans is a product of evolution, and convinces me even more we are more animal that anything, just cognitive on a higher level.

We think ourselves special because we can think about it. However, to believe that this world with everything on it, this solar system, this galaxy, this universe and everything in it, and perhaps more universes were are created just for us? This is not humble.

If this was meant to call forth the question as [a] god being the progenitor for our morality, then I point to an article I posted on sometime back in another thread: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/cohen02.htm.

I posted it here because there was some heavy debate about animals having feelings in this thread some time ago, it even involved christianity.

I completely agree with the way you think! It's quite arrogant to believe that we are the only ones in this universe.

What you say is another reason why I posted it here. Thanks!

Those statements are other examples of why i don't believe in a god having created the whole universe and us and our world etc. i mean, how can someone, or something, or whatever it was, having popped-out of 'nothing', created not just all the things here on earth (both things we know and understand, and things that we still haven't discovered, or understood yet), as well as the rest of our galaxy which i believe we as a human race still don't know or understand fully, not to mention the rest of the universe... know what i mean?

Keep in mind here, the nothing you speak of is also very much a nothing because we have no notion of that level of existance. We also have no idea of any preexistance outside of a physical universe in general. With that, lilke we also have created ourselves too. I think the whole deal is more of a "God set it up and does what God does" but basically also seems to come to the level of stuff where we also have a play on things too. Like evolutionary growth makes sense interplaying with the God angle. One works with the other on varrying levels and in varrying degrees.

For me the science 'theory' and the religion(s) 'theory' are different points of view, but still with not enough proof to sustain what they say. still, because of the proofs that has already provided, and for the 'logic' it has, i do stick more with the scientific point of view of things.

Written by tulkas on 31.05.2009 at 05:26

For me the science 'theory' and the religion(s) 'theory' are different points of view, but still with not enough proof to sustain what they say. still, because of the proofs that has already provided, and for the 'logic' it has, i do stick more with the scientific point of view of things.

What are some examples of such 'theories' you speak of?

@dane: for starters it would be the theories of creation of the universe, though none of them, of either 'sides' may convince me. and then it's the whole evolution thing, formation (or forming?) of our world and race... you know, all the things in which religion confronts science.

For me i just find that one really goes along with the other one. Like one doesn't really negate the other being part of it all. Like the only thing I noticed is that the whole "Science" being unable to proof God existing really is what I found to be the seperatinig point. Granted, science hasn't figured out ua "God-o-meter" at all but at the same time I also can't say that it doesn't mean God had nothing to do with it.

Written by Ph0eNiX on 31.05.2009 at 19:05

For me i just find that one really goes along with the other one. Like one doesn't really negate the other being part of it all. Like the only thing I noticed is that the whole "Science" being unable to proof God existing really is what I found to be the seperatinig point. Granted, science hasn't figured out ua "God-o-meter" at all but at the same time I also can't say that it doesn't mean God had nothing to do with it.

yep, got a point there where you say it's the science not being able to proof god's existence, and in a way i guess that fit into my saying of not being completley on the science side point of view

Written by tulkas on 01.06.2009 at 06:12

Written by Ph0eNiX on 31.05.2009 at 19:05

For me i just find that one really goes along with the other one. Like one doesn't really negate the other being part of it all. Like the only thing I noticed is that the whole "Science" being unable to proof God existing really is what I found to be the seperatinig point. Granted, science hasn't figured out ua "God-o-meter" at all but at the same time I also can't say that it doesn't mean God had nothing to do with it.

yep, got a point there where you say it's the science not being able to proof god's existence, and in a way i guess that fit into my saying of not being completley on the science side point of view

But you have to look at the fact there is absolutely no evidence of god. Science is about theories which lead to rules about how our world works and these are things we can actually test and see for ourselves, there are rules that the physical world follows and that is fact. Scientists come to these conclusions by actually testing their theories in REALITY. Evolution is fact, there is masses of evidence and you only need to watch one documentary on the subject to see that it is undeniable. That gets rid of the whole creationism thing, you'd have to be pretty ignonrant and plain stupid to deny evolution. Science is real, religion is just wild speculation and hope. The two are seperate. They can only become linked when we actually have some physical, real evidence of a god. Which we don't.

However, I do want to believe there are some supernatural beings out there, I guess it's a kind of romantic thing. I've said this before, but if there is something out there, we cannot even comprehend it, let alone have any knowledge of how it would like us to live out lives, never mind what it's called or what it looks like.

Yeh, you're right on those things, and that's the big reason why i don't believe in the religion creationism thing. and that second part, i totally agree. i do believe that there might be some supernatural thing around us working all the time that we don't understand or comprehend. and for some reason, maybe it's better that way, i guess. i mean, all these 'conflict' between science and religion, and groups from both sides, etc, imagine if there would also be another 'side'.

Written by Guest on 04.06.2009 at 13:30

But you have to look at the fact there is absolutely no evidence of god.

Really? No evidence at all? Or do you mean to say "no physical scientific evidence" instead? I would argue that I have plenty of evidence for my faith. Sure, it is not anything found in a test tube, but I've been convinced that there is a God.

Likewise, I've read many scientific reports that show evidence that points towards some kind of higher power. I've also read reports pointing to there being no God.

If there is scientific evidence pointing towards some kind of higher power and also reports showing there is no God, then I guess we can conclude that it depends on the way we describe this 'God' or this 'higher power', and what we say it is capable of.

Yes, i agree with that. specially knowing that there are a lot of 'views' about God or that higher power, i mean, all religions and personal beliefs that people around the world may have.

I am going more and more for an approach that - let's just call it God, what's in a name - God is all our conciousness combined with love.
I mean, what is the most amazing thing of mankind? That we have conciousness, that we are aware of ourselves!
How much cooler can it be?
And the best things of this is that the evidence is everywhere, and that it doesn't judge at all.
And love is what makes our species go forward.