Written by angel. on 16.10.2013 at 17:13

Written by mz on 16.10.2013 at 17:05

I was thinking about eliminating it from the list a few days ago.

don't remove it

well, I ended up deciding to keep the album on list when I was thinking about excluding it last week Its position is well secured now

Written by mz on 16.10.2013 at 17:05

honestly not. I placed this album on list because it was the first metal album with black metal elements that I heard.It is probably the least BMish album on this list. I was thinking about eliminating it from the list a few days ago.
Their last album is more influenced by BM but it is not as good as AATG.

Indeed. Good to see it's staying on the list though, as for me it's a brilliant album. Agalloch's latest album is most BM for sure, but it's also their weakest album whereas AATG is their best (yes, I've heard all 4 albums and not even The Mantle is superior to AATG for me).

Written by Guest on 16.10.2013 at 19:18

If you remove Ashes then you have to remove The Sham Mirrors because It only has like 1 black metal song in it.

Yep, that's true. The Sham Mirrors honestly isn't BM if you ask me, except for 1 song then. The only real BM album Arcturus has is their debut and I like it more than The Sham Mirrors (the style appeals more to me I guess).

Written by Erik M. on 17.10.2013 at 01:33


Indeed. Good to see it's staying on the list though, as for me it's a brilliant album. Agalloch's latest album is most BM for sure, but it's also their weakest album whereas AATG is their best (yes, I've heard all 4 albums and not even The Mantle is superior to AATG for me).

personally, I think that I prefer mantle over this. Both are great but mantle is IMO more unique but it is too acoustic for a BM list, despite the fact that riffing on mantle was more BMish than AATG.
It is really absurd and odd, I know

@ all: I have not rechecked Arcturus since the time I made this list. Now that I have all of their albums I will go through their discography to see if they can be qualified as BM and also to pick their best album

Written by mz on 17.10.2013 at 02:01

personally, I think that I prefer mantle over this. Both are great but mantle is IMO more unique but it is too acoustic for a BM list, despite the fact that riffing on mantle was more BMish than AATG.
It is really absurd and odd, I know

Just listened to Falling Snow and carefully tried to determine the genre. Well, my conclusion is that there's barely, if any, BM in it. People probably only regard Agalloch BM because of the vocals, which I don't think is correct (like Marcel always says ). It's been a while since I listened to The Mantle but as far as I know there's no BM in it. So yeah, the only Agalloch album that could be called BM is their last one I think.

Written by mz on 17.10.2013 at 02:04

@ all: I have not rechecked Arcturus since the time I made this list. Now that I have all of their albums I will go through their discography to see if they can be qualified as BM and also to pick their best album

The only Arcturus album that can be called BM is Aspera Hiems Symfonia and that's a fact. While some may argue there is BM in The Sham Mirrors (which is true, because of the song Radical Cut) there isn't nearly enough to call it BM. La Masquerade Infernale has even less BM in it and I even say it has none BM in it whatsoever, but some disagree. Even if there's BM, it's also not enough to call it BM. According to most people their best album is either The Sham Mirrors or La Masquerade Infernale. I think the last one (I just mentioned) and Aspera Hiems Symfonia are about equally great (haven't heard their 4th album yet).

Lord Mantis is not really black metal either sludge with some black influence.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2013 at 19:27

Agalloch is.. Atmospheric Dark Metal as I like to call it best. Truly one of the best metal bands of all time.. but not Black metal.

As far as I'm concerned there's no such genre as "dark metal"

Written by Guest on 17.10.2013 at 19:39


Yeah I didn't say it was a genre. But I define "dark metal" as a mix of atmospheric and black metal vocals.

Now that I think of it. You don't even have to define dark metal because only Agalloch are anywhere close to this kind of metal so I'm just gonna call them Dark metal.

Btw joooe can you make a list of your favorite doom (and gothic) albums? Not just UK !

Unfortunately I listen to very little gothic metal so I'm afraid it would be a very short list. Even doom is not something I'm that into at the moment it seems, unless it's particularly unusual sounding. Perhaps sometime in the future though I'm not sure you'd find it a very valuable list.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2013 at 19:39

Yeah I didn't say it was a genre. But I define "dark metal" as a mix of atmospheric and black metal vocals.

Now that I think of it. You don't even have to define dark metal because only Agalloch are anywhere close to this kind of metal so I'm just gonna call them Dark metal.

I find it funny that dark metal can't be called a genre, while ridiculous genres such as djent and math metal are apparently official genres. Anyway, it's your own definition of dark metal then and I personally wouldn't call Agalloch dark metal as they aren't that dark overall. The first 3 albums aren't very dark (I mean, just listen to Falling Snow, it's a very cheery song actually), but their 4th album is dark though (for example, Lake Nidstang is a pretty damn dark song, as is To Drown). I'm at a total loss when it comes to labelling Agalloch a proper genre, as it seems to be a mix of many different genres, such as (neo)folk, post-metal and maybe even doom and progressive (and black because of the vocals, arguably). One of the few things I'm certain of is that there are at least no death and thrash in their music at all.

Quote:

Btw joooe can you make a list of your favorite doom (and gothic) albums? Not just UK !

He already has a doom list (of UK bands), but even I know gothic metal is far from his favourite music. In fact, I think he hates gothic metal in general. I however, like gothic metal a lot. Look at my "beauty and the beast" list to get an idea. Most albums there are (partially) gothic (about 75% I think), but it also contains a few death doom albums for instance.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2013 at 21:30

I know that I'm wrong in this, but I define gothic metal as anything metal that has a gothic influence. There is Gothic Death Doom metal for example like.. Early Katatonia / October Tide / Draconian, Draconian especially fits perfectly into that category, they are very Gothic, they are very doom metal and also use growls.. so there's that. I don't listen to Gothic metal like tristania and other bands like that.

Yeah, out of those, Draconian is definitely gothic doom, but the others aren't really if you ask me (those are (melodic) death doom). Although there's no death in Draconian I think, or barely at least. My "beauty and the beast" list might consist of mainly gothic albums, but it actually refers to the combination of male harsh vocals and female clean vocals, so albums on there are not necessarily gothic. I might add genres to the albums on that list again so it's more clear which albums are gothic and which are not.

My issue with calling anything "dark metal" is that there is no solid definition of what "dark metal" is supposed to be. It's beyond vague. Just look at the wikipedia page for it. Should be deleted in my opinion.

Written by Erik M. on 17.10.2013 at 18:20


Just listened to Falling Snow and carefully tried to determine the genre. Well, my conclusion is that there's barely, if any, BM in it. People probably only regard Agalloch BM because of the vocals, which I don't think is correct (like Marcel always says ). It's been a while since I listened to The Mantle but as far as I know there's no BM in it. So yeah, the only Agalloch album that could be called BM is their last one I think.

two songs on mantle seem pretty BMish on my ears: I Am The Wooden Doors and You Were But A Ghost In My Arms and apparantly,these songs were the first two songs written for that album and were much in vein of their debut.

(not an official video)

Written by Guest on 17.10.2013 at 18:55

Lord Mantis is not really black metal either sludge with some black influence.

yeah exactly, but again I do not look for pure bm and tend to prefer the types of black metal which are not too much black metal
I guess that I should change the title and add a few sentences to the description

Written by mz on 18.10.2013 at 00:31

yeah exactly, but again I do not look for pure bm and tend to prefer the types of black metal which are not too much black metal
I guess that I should change the title and add a few sentences to the description

I've no issue with it being here really. I think as long as it's mostly a black metal list a few not-completely black metal bands being on it are fine.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2013 at 19:27

Agalloch is.. Atmospheric Dark Metal as I like to call it best. Truly one of the best metal bands of all time.. but not Black metal.

as Joe said, dark metal is not a real subgenre. "dark" in this phrase is mostly a type of feeling that chains some bands together, just like terms as "crushing","evil" etc. What do bands like Bethlehem, agalloch and green carnation share musically?

Haha, yeah. Bethlehem's 'Dark Metal' is 100% blackened doom. Certainly nothing to do with dark metal.

Written by Guest on 18.10.2013 at 00:41

... Certainly nothing to do with dark metal.

this sentence somehow implies that you believe in existence of dark metal as a genre =p, like "...nothing to do with tried and true dark metal"

Written by mz on 18.10.2013 at 00:53

this sentence somehow implies that you believe in existence of dark metal as a genre =p, like "...nothing to do with tried and true dark metal"

It does look a bit like that Of course nothing sounds like dark metal outside of personal descriptions of something.

Just skimmed read this, did someone say Agalloch is doom and whats this dark metal???

Written by Guest on 18.10.2013 at 06:11

Just skimmed read this, did someone say Agalloch is doom and whats this dark metal???

I believe that was said because agalloch's sound is hard to classify. I personally do not think that they play doom
also, dark metal seems to be a non existent and non defined genre which people are generously using as a tag for some bands

Written by Guest on 18.10.2013 at 08:33

Wait behemoth isn't dark metal.

Dark metal should be atmospheric and create somekind of bleak feeling.

we were talking about Bethlehem not behemoth.
I believe that the definition of a genre should be based on musical context and elements and not the feeling that it creates or at least, actual music and the feeling it creates should both have their own parts in definition of genre.

Written by Guest on 18.10.2013 at 06:11

Just skimmed read this, did someone say Agalloch is doom and whats this dark metal???

Agalloch does have some doom in them, but definitely not enough to label them as such, I think. They are listed as "atmospheric black" and "neofolk" here. Having listened to AATG yesterday, I made up my own genre tag: "atmospheric blackened post folk". Yes, it's a mouthful but I feel it's a pretty accurate genre tag for Agalloch. If you disagree, then tell me what a better genre would be for them.

Written by Erik M. on 18.10.2013 at 21:34

I made up my own genre tag: "atmospheric blackened post folk".

blackened post folk ? :/ hmm did metal ever have something like this before ?

Written by angel. on 18.10.2013 at 21:48

blackened post folk ? :/ hmm did metal ever have something like this before ?

Some reviews say there's also death and gothic in Agalloch's sound but I don't hear it at all. Agalloch is a pretty unique band so their style is pretty different from most bands, but I'm sure other bands could be called "blackened post folk". I'd probably have a few in my debut albums list, but I'm too lazy to check now.

Written by Erik M. on 18.10.2013 at 21:55


Some reviews say there's also death in Agalloch but I don't hear it at all. Agalloch is a pretty unique band so their style is pretty different from most bands, but I'm sure other bands could be called "blackened post folk". I'd probably have a few in my debut albums list, but I'm too lazy to check now.

oh my ! Which reviewer can really say that there is death in Agalloch sound , it's not even close to death, well actually I'm wondering what is post folk firstly and then how would blackened post folk sound alright , if you found them on your list let me know

Written by Erik M. on 18.10.2013 at 21:34

"atmospheric blackened post folk".

pretty accurate but too much of tags used here haha

Edit: do you consider the song I posted here a BM one?

I have also seen them being describes as death metal and this shows how misleading some reviews can be. It is worse than calling tool a sludge metal band which a reviewer was trying to prove.

Written by angel. on 18.10.2013 at 21:59

oh my ! Which reviewer can really say that there is death in Agalloch sound , it's not even close to death, well actually I'm wondering what is post folk firstly and then how would blackened post folk sound alright , if you found them on your list let me know

Haha, I know right? This review says there's doom, death and gothic in Agalloch: http://www.metalstorm.net/pub/review.php?review_id=2951. If you're too lazy to check the review then this sentence says it all: "With their unique blend of Doom, Gothic and elements of Death metal, those musicians managed to break through the US scene with the highly-acclaimed album The Mantle back in 2002." The guy is apparently totally clueless when it comes to Agalloch's genre seeing as none of those genres is existent in Agalloch's sound, except for doom that is. He doesn't even mentioned post and folk as genres while those are clearly to be heard if you ask me. Hell, he didn't even mention black, which surprises me.

Oh, and I just checked my debut albums list and it appears none of the albums are "blackened post folk", but some are (partially) "blackened post": Altar of Plagues, Apocynthion, Fen, Lantlôs, Progenie Terrestre Pura and Regarde Les Hommes Tomber. I also have Falloch listed as "Post Folk". Don't know if all the genres are 100% correct, but when I added the albums those seemed correct to me.

Written by mz on 18.10.2013 at 22:07


pretty accurate but too much of tags used here haha

Edit: do you consider the song I posted here a BM one?

Yeah, I personally don't exceed 4 genres/styles for my genre tags, so that right there is the maximum. Of course I prefer to use less but then I'd ignore either atmospheric, black, post or folk metal. Hehe, it's not even that important I guess, but I just tried to make sense out of their genre.

Sorry, I forgot to reply to that message you quoted me in, but I indeed hear some BM in that song although I'm not 100% sure. When I first discovered The Mantle I listened to it many, many times. But I only listened to it once this whole year I think, or not even once. Btw, I saw them live in May and while the sound was pretty bad, they were still awesome. They played awesome songs like "In the Shadow of Our Pale Companion", "Our Fortress is Burning" (part I and II, so luckily not part III) and "You Were But a Ghost in My Arms". Would like to see Agalloch again but then in a venue with actually good sound because the bad sound at Willemeen (the venue they played when I was there) doesn't do justice to their music at all.

Written by mz on 18.10.2013 at 22:10

I have also seen them being describes as death metal and this shows how misleading some reviews can be. It is worse than calling tool a sludge metal band which a reviewer was trying to prove.

Indeed. Did you see that review of AATG I just linked Mary to? Totally ridiculous that he even mentions death and gothic metal, seeing as none of those genres are present in Agalloch's sound at all.

By the way, I'm listening to The Mantle again right now. Because of this conversation I suddenly had the urge of hearing it again after such a long time.

Written by Erik M. on 18.10.2013 at 22:53

damn, you should never describe the concert you've gone since I would be jealous of you. Never went to any concert and I don't think that I would be able to go in the next two years
anyway, I had read that review before. IMO death metal is not present in agalloch's sound. I actually like some of reviews of that reviewer but definitely do not agree with what he had said there