Written by Guest on 12.01.2014 at 20:52

Yes!!! i like seeing gothic in first place but... lost paradise at fucking 2nd to last? i like that album so much, probably would put it in top 5 of theirs

For a debut it was good, but compared to what they did after it until they changed direction a little bit, it's just inferior. Out of all the pioneers of death/doom, I think that they've released the worst debut album. I could find a song that I liked from MDB's or Anathema's debut albums, but none on this one. I remember reading an interview with Mackintosh about this album saying that for a debut, it was a really bad album. They just experimented with pretty much anything in order to find a direction. Thus, I consider Gothic their true debut. I even like Host better than this one. Also, I cannot put it before gems like Icon, Draconian Times or Shades of God...

So, for me Lost Paradise is a very chaotic album. It shows the band being in an experimental stage not knowing with what to start and how to end. It might've been a stepping stone to a greater sound, but that's all there is to it. They have way better albums in their collection that overwhelm this one, both in their early days and in the present.

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 13.01.2014 at 11:48

For a debut it was good, but compared to what they did after it until they changed direction a little bit, it's just inferior. Out of all the pioneers of death/doom, I think that they've released the worst debut album. I could find a song that I liked from MDB's or Anathema's debut albums, but none on this one. I remember reading an interview with Mackintosh about this album saying that for a debut, it was a really bad album. They just experimented with pretty much anything in order to find a direction. Thus, I consider Gothic their true debut. I even like Host better than this one. Also, I cannot put it before gems like Icon, Draconian Times or Shades of God...

So, for me Lost Paradise is a very chaotic album. It shows the band being in an experimental stage not knowing with what to start and how to end. It might've been a stepping stone to a greater sound, but that's all there is to it. They have way better albums in their collection that overwhelm this one, both in their early days and in the present.

Uh-oh! Wait until Marcel, Joe and Mr. Doctor read this... they all think the debut is the best thing PL ever made.

That being said, I can't say I agree either. From the albums that I've heard I would rank them like this:
1. Shades of God
2. Gothic
3. Lost Paradise
4. In Requiem
5. Draconian Times
6. Icon

Then again, my ranking is also quite unusual as most people prefer Draconian Times and Icon above most others, but I think they're a bit poppy and not all that great. Shades of God is just easily the best for me, that's the most important thing.

But I do agree that Lost Paradise is pretty chaotic and easily one of the worst classic (pioneer) death doom albums. It's easily crushed by debuts of Disembowelment, My Dying Bride, Winter and let's not forget Decomposed. I would say it's better than Anathema's and The Gathering's debuts though.

Written by Erik M. on 14.01.2014 at 00:50

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 13.01.2014 at 11:48

For a debut it was good, but compared to what they did after it until they changed direction a little bit, it's just inferior. Out of all the pioneers of death/doom, I think that they've released the worst debut album. I could find a song that I liked from MDB's or Anathema's debut albums, but none on this one. I remember reading an interview with Mackintosh about this album saying that for a debut, it was a really bad album. They just experimented with pretty much anything in order to find a direction. Thus, I consider Gothic their true debut. I even like Host better than this one. Also, I cannot put it before gems like Icon, Draconian Times or Shades of God...

So, for me Lost Paradise is a very chaotic album. It shows the band being in an experimental stage not knowing with what to start and how to end. It might've been a stepping stone to a greater sound, but that's all there is to it. They have way better albums in their collection that overwhelm this one, both in their early days and in the present.

Uh-oh! Wait until Marcel, Joe and Mr. Doctor read this... they all think the debut is the best thing PL ever made.

That being said, I can't say I agree either. From the albums that I've heard I would rank them like this:
1. Shades of God
2. Gothic
3. Lost Paradise
4. In Requiem
5. Draconian Times
6. Icon

Then again, my ranking is also quite unusual as most people prefer Draconian Times and Icon above most others, but I think they're a bit poppy and not all that great. Shades of God is just easily the best for me, that's the most important thing.

Well, I do not really care what others think of it and on which basis. I think Lost Paradise for a debut album is pretty weak and random. When it comes to debut albums there are two types of bands, in my opinion; those that are using the rebellious stage of their early career and put up a great debut opus, and those that are yet not sure about their musical path and release a debut that is rather average/mediocre and serves as a stepping stone for future releases. Like it or not, PL grew as a group of musicians as time passed and as released passed. Sure, you have ups and downs, every bands have these, but Lost Paradise is not a defining point for PL, in my opinion. For me, Gothic is their true beginning. Call it poppy or idk, more commercial oriented (compared to the debut) but hey, musicaly speaking, it has much more to offer than the debut has. And seriously, I like harsh vocals, but Nick Holmes is mostly bad at it. On Lost Paradise, this just did not stick with me. It was like begging me to reject it. I appreciate this work as the beginning of a good band, but I do not hold it in high regards like other people do, because I do not have many good points that I can relate to regarding this work.

And like I said, out of the Peaceville trio, MDB holds the lead with regarding debut albums and Anathema would be Lost Paradise's equal (though I still favor Serenades a lot more than LP). If I were to look for better debut albums from death/doom or doom/death acts, I would look no further than Katatonia's debut, Mourning Beloveth's debut, November's Doom debut, Officium Triste's debut or even Saturnus's debut.

Written by deadone on 14.01.2014 at 01:30

Interesting list.

I actually prefer PL with clean singing as opposed to growling.

So from my listening experiences:

1. Draconian Times
2. Icon
3. Tragic Idol
4. Faith Divides Us - Death Unites Us
5. In Requiem
6. Gothic - sold my copy
7. Lost Paradise
8. Host - total crap.

I placed Host over LP simply because I am a Depeche Mode fan and it somehow clicked with me. It is weak, but unlike LP, this one had a couple of moments that for me were pretty much memorable.

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 14.01.2014 at 16:30

Well, I do not really care what others think of it and on which basis. I think Lost Paradise for a debut album is pretty weak and random. When it comes to debut albums there are two types of bands, in my opinion; those that are using the rebellious stage of their early career and put up a great debut opus, and those that are yet not sure about their musical path and release a debut that is rather average/mediocre and serves as a stepping stone for future releases. Like it or not, PL grew as a group of musicians as time passed and as released passed. Sure, you have ups and downs, every bands have these, but Lost Paradise is not a defining point for PL, in my opinion. For me, Gothic is their true beginning. Call it poppy or idk, more commercial oriented (compared to the debut) but hey, musicaly speaking, it has much more to offer than the debut has. And seriously, I like harsh vocals, but Nick Holmes is mostly bad at it. On Lost Paradise, this just did not stick with me. It was like begging me to reject it. I appreciate this work as the beginning of a good band, but I do not hold it in high regards like other people do, because I do not have many good points that I can relate to regarding this work.

And like I said, out of the Peaceville trio, MDB holds the lead with regarding debut albums and Anathema would be Lost Paradise's equal (though I still favor Serenades a lot more than LP). If I were to look for better debut albums from death/doom or doom/death acts, I would look no further than Katatonia's debut, Mourning Beloveth's debut, November's Doom debut, Officium Triste's debut or even Saturnus's debut.

Well, I think it's still a very good album, just nothing amazing or groundbreaking. But your view of debut albums is strange. I don't agree with it at all, as there are many other types of debut albums. For example, there are also bands in a rebellious stage who put out bad debut albums, and there are also bands who aren't yet sure about their musical path and release a debut that is still great and also serves as a stepping stone for future releases. It's not that hard to understand, really. That being said, I do agree LP is a pretty insignificant release when you look at their entire discography. Gothic is quite a bit better for me and has a far more mature sound and is (like you said) less chaotic than the debut. And I wouldn't call Gothic poppy at all. For me the first 4 albums aren't poppy, so the pop comes in at Draconian Times in my opinion. I also agree that Nick Holmes doesn't have good growls, but his harsh vocals are great, like those that are heard on their best album: Shades of God.

As far as classic death doom debuts go, the indisputably best album is Disembowelment's album. It seems you haven't listened to that one yet, so it goes without saying that I highly recommend that one. It easily blows all the other death doom debuts out of the water. Btw, I didn't mention some of the debuts you mention because they are too recent, but for me Saturnus' debut is still the best of them all. But Paradise Belongs to You is atmospheric/melodic death doom and thus it's way different from pure death doom albums such as MDB, PL, Mourning Beloveth, Novembers Doom etc.

Written by Erik M. on 15.01.2014 at 23:39

Well, I think it's still a very good album, just nothing amazing or groundbreaking.

Except this is largely regarded as a groundbreaking album for the genre along with MDB and Anathema, so calling it "groundbreaking" would be apt.

Paradise Lost's best moment for sure. To me it still stands up against any from the genre.

Lost Paradise IS a groundbreaking album. Like JOOE says it helped shape the genre along with MDB, Anathema, Winter and some others. Were it to be released in, let's say, 2014, then it wouldn't be groundbreaking because of the state the current genre is in. But remember Lost Pardise hails from 1990, just like Winter's album. And both Lost Paradise and Into Darkness predate Anathema's and My Dying Bride's and diSEMBOWELMENT's debut albums by two/three years.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.01.2014 at 15:13

Lost Paradise IS a groundbreaking album. Like JOOE says it helped shape the genre along with MDB, Anathema, Winter and some others. Were it to be released in, let's say, 2014, then it wouldn't be groundbreaking because of the state the current genre is in. But remember Lost Pardise hails from 1990, just like Winter's album. And both Lost Paradise and Into Darkness predate Anathema's and My Dying Bride's and diSEMBOWELMENT's debut albums by two/three years.

Groundbreaking as it may be, but it is weak and chaotic. If I were to look for another 'groundbreaking' doom/death work, I would look at MDB's debut which is the only debut out of the Peaceville 3 that has some redeeming value. This one doesn't, and just because it was ahead of time does not mean that it is great. Just the fact that this album and Winter's predate the other debuts doesn't make them better quality wise. They were done earlier, and that's it. Other bands have done way better debut albums.

And I pretty much don't care what other people said... really... not like you care what I say anyway. )

Chaotic? I wouldn't say so. It may appear so given its rough edges but its composition is very consistent and solid and their modus operandi is evident from the off and remains so throughout the record. To me the only thing random and chaotic about PD is their inability to stay consistent throughout the rest of their career, jumping from gothy melancholic rock to Depeche Mode-esque meanderings, and doing neither especially well in most cases. As for it being weak I tend to disagree; it has a strength and character in its sound and structure and a confidence that all other PD albums lack in great quantities, especially these days. Definitely the best of the Peaceville Trilogy debuts. Certainly there may be better debuts out there, but very few. This so happens to be a rare album that is both groundbreaking and excellent, even by a modern standard. Not a common feat.

How people manage to call Lost Paradise chaotic is totally beyond me. Like JOOE I would call this album extremely consistent and solid and very strong and interesting. By far the strongest Paradise Lost release, by quite a margin, I'd say.

Written by Guest on 16.01.2014 at 15:32

Chaotic? I wouldn't say so. It may appear so given its rough edges but its composition is very consistent and solid and their modus operandi is evident from the off and remains so throughout the record. To me the only thing random and chaotic about PD is their inability to stay consistent throughout the rest of their career, jumping from gothy melancholic rock to Depeche Mode-esque meanderings, and doing neither especially well in most cases. As for it being weak I tend to disagree; it has a strength and character in its sound and structure and a confidence that all other PD albums lack in great quantities, especially these days. Definitely the best of the Peaceville Trilogy debuts. Certainly there may be better debuts out there, but very few. This so happens to be a rare album that is both groundbreaking and excellent, even by a modern standard. Not a common feat.

For a moment I thought that you were talking about an entirely different album. Sorry, but I find some redeeming quality in Host rather than in Lost Paradise. For me, it is clearly overwhelmed by MDB's debut and more of an equal with Anathema's debut. Sorry, but this album never clicked with me. I gave it another spin thinking that I might appreciate it more but the result is oposite. If the first time I could get until the end and still say, meh, at least I listened to it and did not die from curiosity, now I barely reached the middle of it. This just made me think even more that this one was merely a stepping stone for future releases. As for better debuts, compared with this one, there are a lot better ones. This one will go down in history as being the debut of PL, but nothing else. It is very unmemorable.

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 17:01

This one will go down in history as being the debut of PL, but nothing else. It is very unmemorable.

On the contrary, it has gone down as a landmark album of the genre as well as a favourite amongst many doom / death and death / doom fans, if not Paradise Lost fans who clearly prefer the watered down formulas they did after the debut.

Written by Guest on 16.01.2014 at 17:06

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 17:01

This one will go down in history as being the debut of PL, but nothing else. It is very unmemorable.

On the contrary, it has gone down as a landmark album of the genre as well as a favourite amongst many doom / death and death / doom fans.

How anyone can deny that this is a landmark album is beyond me. It is often hailed as being a truly important and influential album. Okay, ManiacBlasphemer does not like the album, that is well possible. But denying how important and groundbreaking a landmark album this is, is just ridiculous. That would be like me saying the first two Venom albums aren't landmark albums, just because I don't like those albums.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.01.2014 at 17:11



How anyone can deny that this is a landmark album is beyond me. It is often hailed as being a truly important and influential album. Okay, ManiacBlasphemer does not like the album, that is well possible. But denying how important and groundbreaking a landmark album this is, is just ridiculous. That would be like me saying the first two Venom albums aren't landmark albums, just because I don't like those albums.

Indeed. I can't stand Venom's debut, but I would never summarise it as simply being known as Venom's debut and nothing more.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.01.2014 at 17:11
That would be like me saying the first two Venom albums aren't landmark albums, just because I don't like those albums.

Or like a certain young kid who claims Pink Floyd are overrated.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.01.2014 at 17:11

Written by Guest on 16.01.2014 at 17:06

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 17:01

This one will go down in history as being the debut of PL, but nothing else. It is very unmemorable.

On the contrary, it has gone down as a landmark album of the genre as well as a favourite amongst many doom / death and death / doom fans.

How anyone can deny that this is a landmark album is beyond me. It is often hailed as being a truly important and influential album. Okay, ManiacBlasphemer does not like the album, that is well possible. But denying how important and groundbreaking a landmark album this is, is just ridiculous. That would be like me saying the first two Venom albums aren't landmark albums, just because I don't like those albums.

Groundbreaking... important... ok, but it does not mean it is good, it might've been important back then, but since then better albums have been released which overshadow this unmemorable one, both from PL and from other doom/death actss. I did not deny the fact that it is either groundbreaking or important, I just do not get this hype all of a sudden considering the fact that PL did a much better job on later material compared to this one. And there are other bands that released debut albums far better than this one. Seriously, if I have to pick one from PL's debut or Winter's debut, I would choose the second option, without second thoughts. A user said it well in the comments of LP, this is just another 'worship the classics' scenario... nothing more, nothing less. And its not like telling me how great it is makes it great in my eyes. I still see in it an uninspired, chaotic, mediocre release. Thank god that PL did not follow this recipe all the way 'till today.

Written by Guest on 16.01.2014 at 17:06

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 17:01

This one will go down in history as being the debut of PL, but nothing else. It is very unmemorable.

On the contrary, it has gone down as a landmark album of the genre as well as a favourite amongst many doom / death and death / doom fans, if not Paradise Lost fans who clearly prefer the watered down formulas they did after the debut.

Ow really? I think if you ask 100 PL fans which album they consider as being PL's landmark I strongly believe that they will name one of the following: Gothic, Shades of God, Icon or Draconian Times (and maybe some late-comers would name a more recent one). I view this one as a preference for die-hard PL fans, maybe. It just started a movement, but that's it. Many bands have released work eons ahead of this one, in all aspects. And also, I am not a fan of concepts like authority appeal... if you consider it to be good fine, but you can't prove it to me by hiding behind a supposed majority. That is not an argument to begin with.

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 18:17


Ow really? I think if you ask 100 PL fans which album they consider as being PL's landmark I strongly believe that they will name one of the following: Gothic, Shades of God, Icon or Draconian Times (and maybe some late-comers would name a more recent one). I view this one as a preference for die-hard PL fans, maybe. It just started a movement, but that's it. Many bands have released work eons ahead of this one, in all aspects. And also, I am not a fan of concepts like authority appeal... if you consider it to be good fine, but you can't prove it to me by hiding behind a supposed majority. That is not an argument to begin with.

Of course they would. Those albums are many times more appealing to a wider demographic because of their approachability. Proportionally it makes sense. But that doesn't degrade the fact that the debut is highly revered amongst many people and genre and band influence, not just a forgettable album as you have attempted to allude (by informing everyone how the album will go down in history, no less). And a band can have more than one landmark after all. It's never been my argument to suggest that more people like the debut than its successors. That's clearly not the case, but it's my opinion that it's a legitimately better album than anything that's followed it. I'm not here to tell you you're wrong, just here to let you know that others feel the way I do, and far more people than I suspect you realise.

I wasn't using an appeal from authority fallacy btw, nor was I trying to "prove" to you that one is a better album than another, I was simply giving you an insight into the fact that Lost Paradise goes far beyond being seen as mere first-album fodder, because of the influence it's clearly had. I was only supporting myself by letting you know that others do like this album above other PL records, because that's something I don't think you grasp. My judgement of its quality has always been opinion, I've never tried to state that as fact. You insisted you didn't care what I or others thought of your list. Perhaps you should act like it instead of making erroneous accusations to marginalise my opinions.

Quote:
but you can't prove it to me by hiding behind a supposed majority. That is not an argument to begin with.

Then perhaps the opening line to your argument shouldn't consist of just that.

Written by deadone on 17.01.2014 at 00:22

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 18:11


Groundbreaking... important... ok, but it does not mean it is good,

I think this is a fair comment. I'd actually say this about Carcass' Reeks of Putrefaction. It's a landmark album but it is extremely poor quality in production to the point where a lot of the music is lost in the fuzz.

I remember in an interview Bill Steer or Jeff Walker (can't remember which one) stating they never liked Reeks either and didn't understand the appeal. Genital Grinder for the win.

Wow, you read my thoughts exactly. In this whole conversation my mind just flipped to the whole Carcass endeavour with RoP and the cult following it. Arguably, one of the most important grindcore albums and what others call it 'a landmark album' for the said genre, but a pretty disappointing one in quality. The production is so bad that you cannot even distinguish the instrument usage. That's how bad it is. And even in their case, they did far better with future releases.

Written by deadone on 17.01.2014 at 01:36

Yup!

Landmark and quality aren't really mutually inclusive.

Landmark/revolutionary albums feature something new. The quality of the performance, song writing, production etc isn't as important as the new elements introduced.

My thoughts exactly, however, you can't just place an album that revolutionized something, despite the fact that it is pretty poor in many aspects, above some records that might be unoriginal but solid ones. This is just my opinion though. This is why I can't place Lost Paradise in the top 5, not even in the mid. For Carcass though, shit might change if the band decides to rerecord it or remaster it.

I'm also a fan of Gothic but for me Lost Paradise is their best.
When that album came out, we were totally crushed.
I heard the song "Our Saviour" in the radio show "Thrashing Madness" with Wannes and Marleen (some of you will remember this) for the first time in the end of the year top 1990 and was with some friends live in the radio studio. Man, we were like...what's happening here? For me it's a classic, groundbraking, fantastic album. Shades of God had it's moments but after that I stopped listening untill 2009.
I missed a lot Paradise Lost in between

Reek of Putrefaction is not a pertinent comparison in my opinion, simply because that album has genuinely poor production, whereas Lost Paradise's production is spot on. It's perfect for the music; both clear but with a distinct biting edge. If people think that parts of the music is "lost" on Lost Paradise then I'd have to say the issue lies with the person, not the album.

Written by deadone on 17.01.2014 at 01:52
We shouldn't force ourselves enjoy something just because it's recognised as a landmark/classic/popular etc.

Couldn't agree more. But it doesn't make sentences like this one any less wrong:

Quote:
This one will go down in history as being the debut of PL, but nothing else.

Written by Guest on 16.01.2014 at 14:57

Except this is largely regarded as a groundbreaking album for the genre along with MDB and Anathema, so calling it "groundbreaking" would be apt.

Paradise Lost's best moment for sure. To me it still stands up against any from the genre.

Fair enough then. You and Marcel are right in calling it groundbreaking, it's just that I wouldn't call it an excellent album. I listened to it last week and I was surprised I enjoyed it a whole lot more than previously. It still doesn't top Shades of God though. That one will always remain #1 for me.

Written by Guest on 16.01.2014 at 17:06

On the contrary, it has gone down as a landmark album of the genre as well as a favourite amongst many doom / death and death / doom fans, if not Paradise Lost fans who clearly prefer the watered down formulas they did after the debut.

Hard to disagree with this, except that a ton of death doom and doom death albums are still much better in my opinion.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.01.2014 at 15:13

Lost Paradise IS a groundbreaking album. Like JOOE says it helped shape the genre along with MDB, Anathema, Winter and some others. Were it to be released in, let's say, 2014, then it wouldn't be groundbreaking because of the state the current genre is in. But remember Lost Pardise hails from 1990, just like Winter's album. And both Lost Paradise and Into Darkness predate Anathema's and My Dying Bride's and diSEMBOWELMENT's debut albums by two/three years.

Yeah, but out of all those Disembowelment's debut is by far the best if you ask me. MDB, PL and Anathema don't even come close. But yes, you're right about the release dates. It's a difference of a couple of years, so definitely relevant. Still haven't given Winter's debut enough spins (only 2 spins or so), so can't compare it to the others well enough.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.01.2014 at 17:11

How anyone can deny that this is a landmark album is beyond me. It is often hailed as being a truly important and influential album. Okay, ManiacBlasphemer does not like the album, that is well possible. But denying how important and groundbreaking a landmark album this is, is just ridiculous. That would be like me saying the first two Venom albums aren't landmark albums, just because I don't like those albums.

I'm not sure why I didn't view it as such, but even though I don't think it's as excellent as you and Joe find it to be, I agree with the rest both of you said.

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 18:11

Groundbreaking... important... ok, but it does not mean it is good, it might've been important back then, but since then better albums have been released which overshadow this unmemorable one, both from PL and from other doom/death actss. I did not deny the fact that it is either groundbreaking or important, I just do not get this hype all of a sudden considering the fact that PL did a much better job on later material compared to this one. And there are other bands that released debut albums far better than this one. Seriously, if I have to pick one from PL's debut or Winter's debut, I would choose the second option, without second thoughts. A user said it well in the comments of LP, this is just another 'worship the classics' scenario... nothing more, nothing less. And its not like telling me how great it is makes it great in my eyes. I still see in it an uninspired, chaotic, mediocre release. Thank god that PL did not follow this recipe all the way 'till today.

Calling it uninspired is totally off the mark. It's among the very first of its style of music and is therefore very original. To me it seems like it's inspired, albeit very raw. The raw sound is probably what Marcel and Joe really like about the album, and probably what you dislike about it. I would actually say their later stuff is more uninspired than this, because they really don't seem to be doing something new nowadays. I might be wrong, seeing as I haven't heard all their albums, but this is the impression I get. Lots of bands become that way. A good example is My Dying Bride's latest EP. While the music is still good in itself, it's so incredibly bland and unoriginal it just hurts to listen to.

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 18:17

Ow really? I think if you ask 100 PL fans which album they consider as being PL's landmark I strongly believe that they will name one of the following: Gothic, Shades of God, Icon or Draconian Times (and maybe some late-comers would name a more recent one). I view this one as a preference for die-hard PL fans, maybe. It just started a movement, but that's it. Many bands have released work eons ahead of this one, in all aspects. And also, I am not a fan of concepts like authority appeal... if you consider it to be good fine, but you can't prove it to me by hiding behind a supposed majority. That is not an argument to begin with.

This is extremely obvious (like Joe says) since most PL lost fans aren't death doom fans, so I doubt most people would choose Gothic over many other PL albums. I think Draconian Times and Icon are by far the fan favourites.

Written by Erik M. on 21.01.2014 at 01:09

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 18:11

Groundbreaking... important... ok, but it does not mean it is good, it might've been important back then, but since then better albums have been released which overshadow this unmemorable one, both from PL and from other doom/death actss. I did not deny the fact that it is either groundbreaking or important, I just do not get this hype all of a sudden considering the fact that PL did a much better job on later material compared to this one. And there are other bands that released debut albums far better than this one. Seriously, if I have to pick one from PL's debut or Winter's debut, I would choose the second option, without second thoughts. A user said it well in the comments of LP, this is just another 'worship the classics' scenario... nothing more, nothing less. And its not like telling me how great it is makes it great in my eyes. I still see in it an uninspired, chaotic, mediocre release. Thank god that PL did not follow this recipe all the way 'till today.

Calling it uninspired is totally off the mark. It's among the very first of its style of music and is therefore very original. To me it seems like it's inspired, albeit very raw. The raw sound is probably what Marcel and Joe really like about the album, and probably what you dislike about it. I would actually say their later stuff is more uninspired than this, because they really don't seem to be doing something new nowadays. I might be wrong, seeing as I haven't heard all their albums, but this is the impression I get. Lots of bands become that way. A good example is My Dying Bride's latest EP. While the music is still good in itself, it's so incredibly bland and unoriginal it just hurts to listen to.

Written by ManiacBlasphemer on 16.01.2014 at 18:17

Ow really? I think if you ask 100 PL fans which album they consider as being PL's landmark I strongly believe that they will name one of the following: Gothic, Shades of God, Icon or Draconian Times (and maybe some late-comers would name a more recent one). I view this one as a preference for die-hard PL fans, maybe. It just started a movement, but that's it. Many bands have released work eons ahead of this one, in all aspects. And also, I am not a fan of concepts like authority appeal... if you consider it to be good fine, but you can't prove it to me by hiding behind a supposed majority. That is not an argument to begin with.

This is extremely obvious (like Joe says) since most PL lost fans aren't death doom fans, so I doubt most people would choose Gothic over many other PL albums. I think Draconian Times and Icon are by far the fan favourites.

I don't dislike LP because it is raw, I dislike it because it seems aimless. If I would dislike the raw side of death/doom, I would not even appreciate Winter's debut or MDB's debut which are as raw as this one, but more inspired, in my opinion. I would not say that what they're doing now is 'uninspired' but rather 'unoriginal'. They found a formula that seemed to work and they stick with it without delivering a worse output. Ever since In Requiem, the band has been constant in delivering medium to good quality material. This is why I placed Tragic Idol in the top 5. The album is absolutely brilliant. MDB on the other hand kinda kicked the bucket ever since A Line of Deathless Kings, but the point is, even on the latest two albums (and on the EPs), you could still find a couple of songs worth more than just an audition.

LP to me seems like another case of 'worship the classics'. Even if it is raw, even if it is a landmark release, it just doesn't make it good over night.

I can see the quality in PD's few albums subsequent to Lost Paradise, but their recent output? Unquestionably poor records. The band is dead on its feet.

Written by Guest on 21.01.2014 at 02:23

I can see the quality in PD's few albums subsequent to Lost Paradise, but their recent output? Unquestionably poor records. The band is dead on its feet.

Their recent albums are eons ahead when compared to LP in terms of quality and consistency. I do not think the band is dead at all, in fact, ever since In Requiem the quality of their records just keeps rising. Tragic Idol is probably the best record they did since the beginning of the 2000s, comparable with the early ones.