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The original post

Posted by deadone on 28.02.2014 at 03:41
Those frisky Ruskis are peeved off their little stooge in the Ukraine is gone.

They still control a massive naval base in Crimea and large chunks of the Ukrainian population are pro-Russian.


And there's news of Russian military build ups on the border and in Crimea itself:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article18446661.ab

http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=103578

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/ryskt-stridsflyg-redo-for-attack/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26366700

I could see the Russians doing a limited incursion to secure a link between Russia and Crimean peninsula.


Either that or shut down natural gas exports and kill what's left of the Ukrainian economy .



Page 9 of 9

deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5714
From: Australia

  23.04.2015 at 03:11
Written by Bad English on 21.04.2015 at 12:14

. Normal serbs what are not ultra nationalists



Dunno how many of them exist. Most Serbs I've spoken to still have all the ultranationalist stuff or at least view themselves as the victims and deny their country ever committed warcrimes. Croats are very similar though.
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  23.04.2015 at 07:31
Written by deadone on 23.04.2015 at 03:11

Written by Bad English on 21.04.2015 at 12:14

. Normal serbs what are not ultra nationalists



Dunno how many of them exist. Most Serbs I've spoken to still have all the ultranationalist stuff or at least view themselves as the victims and deny their country ever committed warcrimes. Croats are very similar though.

Which crimes are you exactly bringing up that the Serbs did? Croatia has far more blood and death on its hands than Serbia does. First World War and joining with the A-H, plus the known 42 Division that strung up the civilians all across Bosnia. WWII, joined with Hitler, formed Ustasha movement, and created and policed Jasenovac and Gradiska Stara, and not to mention the pits in Lika, where God only knows how many people got murdered. The separation from Yugoslavia without the agreement of the Constitutive majority, changing the constitution in a day to make that happen and making Serbians citizens with no rights, followed by a massive ethnic cleansing campaign and the operations "Storm" and "Flash" that were aided and assisted by NATO/USA who instigated, funded and helped for the separation to happen. The difference is, Croatians are not ashamed of anything, and the kinslayer war you started you glorify as "Defending" your homeland that no one attacked. Croatians are proud of every war they themselves did not win, including this one. Serbia is and was a victim for years, part of it was the stupidity of politicians, but the large part was the influence of the West on it, and constant pressure to dominate this territory which they have now successfully conquered. Were crimes committed during the wars? Yes, by all sides, but from what I know and have researched and seen, Serbia has least blood to account for. USA/NATO wanted for us to kill each other, and they succeeded, now all the former countries are in deep economical shit. I don't know how Croatia stands with ownership of its industry and other things, but Serbia is gutted and everything worth anything is sold to the lowest bidder. But that is why it happened. And another thing, Serbians are less and less nationalistic, the Croatians and Albanians, plus the so called "Bosnians" are leading the charge.


As far as the things are concerned in Ukraine. NATO/EU started this conflict too, and they don't give a shit.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5714
From: Australia

  23.04.2015 at 07:41
Look both Serbs and Croats are two sides of the same murderous coin. They might live in Europe but the cultural attitudes are certainly not modern and in many ways aren't too far removed from Arabs and their 7th century death cult..

There's a reason why I've denounced anything to do with Croatia and it has a lot with them being primitive, mysogonistic, intolerant, mercernary, corrupt types. Serbs in my experience are exactly the same, which makes sense given they're all virtually the same race albeit with a slight variation on the invisible man they believe in. And once Communism went bust, all the Yugoslavs bar Slovenians turned to savagery at the drop of a hat.

You're in America now pal. Embrace it. The Americans (and Australians) have flaws but they're culture is better than our barbaric south slav ancestry.
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  23.04.2015 at 08:03
Written by deadone on 23.04.2015 at 07:41

Look both Serbs and Croats are two sides of the same murderous coin. They might live in Europe but the cultural attitudes are certainly not modern and in many ways aren't too far removed from Arabs and their 7th century death cult..

There's a reason why I've denounced anything to do with Croatia and it has a lot with them being primitive, mysogonistic, intolerant, mercernary, corrupt types. Serbs in my experience are exactly the same, which makes sense given they're all virtually the same race albeit with a slight variation on the invisible man they believe in. And once Communism went bust, all the Yugoslavs bar Slovenians turned to savagery at the drop of a hat.

You're in America now pal. Embrace it. The Americans (and Australians) have flaws but they're culture is better than our barbaric south slav ancestry.

I think the reason why we ended up being so "barbaric" aside from religion and politics of course, is the influence of the great powers. I am not what you would considered your average nationalist nor am I drinking the "patriotic" cool aid, but to an extent you are right, Serbs and Croats, and Bosnians for that matter are on different sides of the coin, and that coin has been in someone else's pocket for a long long time. And while I agree with you that Australia and the USA have a "better" culture, it is because they have not been around for as long as the places of our origin, so they might have less baggage on one side, but they have more in the other, and I think in the years the come it will be a make it or break it point. I don't know what will hit Australia, but USA will fragment to shit because of the liberalism, stupidity, greed and war economy.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5714
From: Australia

  23.04.2015 at 08:22
I think that barbarism is integral to Serbo-Croatian culture. These people were illiterate peasants right up to the time the Communists took over in 1945. Communism was the best thing to happen to that part of the world since the Romans and Greeks colonised that part of the world.

But their own corruption destroyed it and then they proceeded to murder each other.

And the Balkans are extremely corrupt even by Eastern European standards. Even Croats and Serbs I've met here in Australia are corrupt and barbaric. In fact I had big arguments with a Croat doctor who was trying to scam the government for a dodgy trip who told me "you know this is how we do it in Croatia." To which point I said, "you're in Australia now." I've had similar but less intense issues with Serbian doctors as well.

And for what it's worth, I think the Russians, Bulgarians etc are similar. Too much Eastern influence.
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  23.04.2015 at 08:37
Written by deadone on 23.04.2015 at 08:22

I think that barbarism is integral to Serbo-Croatian culture. These people were illiterate peasants right up to the time the Communists took over in 1945. Communism was the best thing to happen to that part of the world since the Romans and Greeks colonised that part of the world.

But their own corruption destroyed it and then they proceeded to murder each other.

And the Balkans are extremely corrupt even by Eastern European standards. Even Croats and Serbs I've met here in Australia are corrupt and barbaric. In fact I had big arguments with a Croat doctor who was trying to scam the government for a dodgy trip who told me "you know this is how we do it in Croatia." To which point I said, "you're in Australia now." I've had similar but less intense issues with Serbian doctors as well.

And for what it's worth, I think the Russians, Bulgarians etc are similar. Too much Eastern influence.

I hate to say it, but I don't see the other people from EU to be any better. North countries, while being so called civilized, are very cold as individuals. Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland, the people don't have the interaction like the people in the Balkans do. If anything aside from wars and stupidity the Slavs were great hosts and liked to socialize. The French are assholes, Germans are way to austere aside from the youth that is just nuts completely. After I checked out Berlin a while back I was amazed.

The reason why the Balkans are corrupt is the misery that struck it for years and years, war after war, and crisis after crisis, I am surprised we didn't end up worse. But you are right, most people were illiterate and easily manipulated, but the part of me will always chose to believe that we can be better and do better, if we only have the means and wisdom to do it.

And I am not surprised, a lot of people are unfortunately like that. How are Croatians in Australia, do they act the same way as they did in Croatia or not? I had issues with the Serbs for different reasons, Croatians because of the politics, Albanians it is a given even when I do not say anything or try to start anything they end up starting it up for me, and Bosnians are 50-50.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5714
From: Australia

  23.04.2015 at 08:55
Written by Rasputin on 23.04.2015 at 08:37

I hate to say it, but I don't see the other people from EU to be any better. North countries, while being so called civilized, are very cold as individuals. Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland, the people don't have the interaction like the people in the Balkans do. If anything aside from wars and stupidity the Slavs were great hosts and liked to socialize. The French are assholes, Germans are way to austere aside from the youth that is just nuts completely. After I checked out Berlin a while back I was amazed.


We all suck in one way or another.

Another thing I hated about Croats/Serbs was their manipulativeness. They don't talk straight unlike most Aussies. They manipulated their kids and their families and tried to manipulate others as well. Stabbing people in the back was far game.

The lying seems endemic too - nearly all the local Croats/Serbs/Bosnians lied about their heritage - they were all children of company directors or army colonels and some even claimed links to the old Yugoslav king! And occassionally they'd slip up and you'd find out they were fruit pickers or factory workers.



Quote:

And I am not surprised, a lot of people are unfortunately like that. How are Croatians in Australia, do they act the same way as they did in Croatia or not?


Pretty much, down to the point where Serbs and Croats still beat each other up in soccer games. They integrate but maintain the old vendettas and attitudes. Doesn't help most are descendants of Cetniks and Ustasa.

Their attitudes to integration and Australian culture are varied - even 2nd/3rd generation types might be 100% Australian and not speak a word of the Serbo-Croatian. But they often regard themselves as Croats or Serbs and hate Serbs or Croats with a passion.

The olders one don't understand some basic concepts such as volunteering (ie work without pay for charity or community groups) or the concept of hobbies. They're just in it for money.

They like to show off with flashy houses and cars even if they live in terrible conditions in terms of food and clothing and can't afford them. My uncle even knew some who lived in a squalid caravan parked outside their huge house which was immaculate. They would send photos of their house to relatives back in Croatia to prove how successful they are, even though they lived in a caravan so as to not wreck their lovely house.



Sorry for the long list - I hate my cultural backgrounds. It was amazing to go back to Croatia and actually see that they regressed. Like mules, they need a firm hand to keep them behaving like humans.
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  23.04.2015 at 09:15
Written by deadone on 23.04.2015 at 08:55

Written by Rasputin on 23.04.2015 at 08:37

I hate to say it, but I don't see the other people from EU to be any better. North countries, while being so called civilized, are very cold as individuals. Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland, the people don't have the interaction like the people in the Balkans do. If anything aside from wars and stupidity the Slavs were great hosts and liked to socialize. The French are assholes, Germans are way to austere aside from the youth that is just nuts completely. After I checked out Berlin a while back I was amazed.


We all suck in one way or another.

Another thing I hated about Croats/Serbs was their manipulativeness. They don't talk straight unlike most Aussies. They manipulated their kids and their families and tried to manipulate others as well. Stabbing people in the back was far game.

The lying seems endemic too - nearly all the local Croats/Serbs/Bosnians lied about their heritage - they were all children of company directors or army colonels and some even claimed links to the old Yugoslav king! And occassionally they'd slip up and you'd find out they were fruit pickers or factory workers.



Quote:

And I am not surprised, a lot of people are unfortunately like that. How are Croatians in Australia, do they act the same way as they did in Croatia or not?


Pretty much, down to the point where Serbs and Croats still beat each other up in soccer games. They integrate but maintain the old vendettas and attitudes. Doesn't help most are descendants of Cetniks and Ustasa.

Their attitudes to integration and Australian culture are varied - even 2nd/3rd generation types might be 100% Australian and not speak a word of the Serbo-Croatian. But they often regard themselves as Croats or Serbs and hate Serbs or Croats with a passion.

The olders one don't understand some basic concepts such as volunteering (ie work without pay for charity or community groups) or the concept of hobbies. They're just in it for money.

They like to show off with flashy houses and cars even if they live in terrible conditions in terms of food and clothing and can't afford them. My uncle even knew some who lived in a squalid caravan parked outside their huge house which was immaculate. They would send photos of their house to relatives back in Croatia to prove how successful they are, even though they lived in a caravan so as to not wreck their lovely house.



Sorry for the long list - I hate my cultural backgrounds. It was amazing to go back to Croatia and actually see that they regressed. Like mules, they need a firm hand to keep them behaving like humans.

No, there is no problem in the long post, because it has substance. I find it interesting that considering how we started on this forum, we came to terms to respect each other even if we disagree on various issues or agree on the other ones.

I thing "gastarbajter" is the label that fits, even for the ones who live in a different country and barely even speak the language. It is the mentality of success. I think the only people who are worse about that are Japanese, because we them you never know where you stand. They live in a lie, and everyone there knows it, but no one cares. Like for instance, in the job interviews and applications they put skills they do not have and half of their skills are a lie, but the key of the game is to have more impressive resume, or to lie better than your opponent.

I keep wondering how would have things been different if there were no wars, and the Balkans had peace for more than 10 years. I blame a lot of the mentality on that.

When I visited home last time, I had people bragging how great they had it in Germany, but they were in fact cleaning toilets or something like that. Have you visited Croatia after you left or no?
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5714
From: Australia

  23.04.2015 at 09:30
Written by Rasputin on 23.04.2015 at 09:15

No, there is no problem in the long post, because it has substance. I find it interesting that considering how we started on this forum, we came to terms to respect each other even if we disagree on various issues or agree on the other ones.


Interesting indeed.


Quote:
I thing "gastarbajter" is the label that fits, even for the ones who live in a different country and barely even speak the language. It is the mentality of success. I think the only people who are worse about that are Japanese, because we them you never know where you stand. They live in a lie, and everyone there knows it, but no one cares. Like for instance, in the job interviews and applications they put skills they do not have and half of their skills are a lie, but the key of the game is to have more impressive resume, or to lie better than your opponent.


That mentality of success is a good way to describe it. I'd add "mentality of illusion of success" as it's too often not real. Having a massive unaffordable mortgage to have a big house is not really success.

Bizarelly though it has to be done on Croatian terms - my parents and my uncle and aunty both have problems with their sons who succeeded in their own way especially after marrying non-Croatian/Yugoslav girls.


Quote:
I keep wondering how would have things been different if there were no wars, and the Balkans had peace for more than 10 years. I blame a lot of the mentality on that.


Croatia has had peace for 20 years and it's just gone down hill in terms of economic development. From what I've read Bosnia and Serbia and Macedonia have not done much better.

Quote:

When I visited home last time, I had people bragging how great they had it in Germany, but they were in fact cleaning toilets or something like that. Have you visited Croatia after you left or no?


I visited back in 2006. Was pretty horrible - family never accepted my Anglo-Saxon fiance and were openly rude to her. They refused to speak English even though they could and insulted her heritage.

People in the street were also rude to us and often stared (apparently I look very Croatian and she very not - inter-racial mixing even between Caucasians is frowned upon.) Some people stared rudely at my tatoo on a few occassions it was visible (apparently only criminal scum have tatoos in Croatia). They were even rude to us in some cafes.
Charly546

Posts: 307

Age: 25
  23.04.2015 at 09:55
Written by deadone on 23.04.2015 at 09:30

People in the street were also rude to us and often stared (apparently I look very Croatian and she very not - inter-racial mixing even between Caucasians is frowned upon.) Some people stared rudely at my tatoo on a few occassions it was visible (apparently only criminal scum have tatoos in Croatia). They were even rude to us in some cafes.


During Soviet era, the only place you could get tattoos was from prison. So you have a tattoo -> you were in prison -> you're criminal scum. Each tattoo also meant something, like your crime, personality, political views and so on. I think there was a book about it somewhere.

Found it: http://fuel-design.com/russian-criminal-tattoo-archive/police-files/
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40366

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  23.04.2015 at 10:58
Written by deadone on 23.04.2015 at 03:11

Written by Bad English on 21.04.2015 at 12:14

. Normal serbs what are not ultra nationalists



Dunno how many of them exist. Most Serbs I've spoken to still have all the ultranationalist stuff or at least view themselves as the victims and deny their country ever committed warcrimes. Croats are very similar though.


because you are slavs, slavs need big slav as leader has been, will be
But there are, main thing don't watch local football in stadium and don't see Greece as brothers and don't bring Russian hools to Greece

Better watch money football
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Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40366

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  23.04.2015 at 13:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VtJmjtqj0

just question US teach them basics(even they learn much faster as irakis and afgans) ... but all their weapon sythems all med shit, suppose normal army know it? even Lv army would be able do it
does in Yanukovich days their army degredated so deep that they dont know basics? c mon its simple think what even I an you would know in 2 days in service, I even know some med 1th aid kid nonsense, ...


and also look at this look how Rus sam goes down ... scary

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/18/is-russia-losing-its-nuclear-defense-capability/
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Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  24.04.2015 at 23:48
This entire bullshit with Ukraine has nothing to do with Ukraine, it has to do with Great Powers. NATO/USA want to fuck around with Russia, and blame Russia for starting shit, but that is not the truth. So far US/NATO bombed and invaded 22 countries around the world, toppled countless regimes and are still going at it, unlike Russia that only dealt with former Soviet members, and Afghanistan. When you compare your notes, you can see who is the aggressor here.

The regime fell in Ukraine because USA/NATO made it happen. They funded the opposition, not caring who they were, and now it is obvious that most of them are Pro-Nazi members, and to make things interesting, the snipers who were involved in the shooting there during Euromaidan thing, were from Poland, so the plot thickens. Now the conflict is not meant to be finished, merely pushed forward into continuation with no end in sight. Did Russia sent their Operatives there, you bet ya. Did USA send Blackwater and other groups, of course, they were there first. So in my eyes, Russia is protecting its interests, and will not allow for NATO to come to inside the yard without a fight. If for instance Russians invaded Mexico, and started planning to put Nuclear warheads near the border, I doubt USA would sit idly and do nothing.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40366

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  24.04.2015 at 23:52
Written by Rasputin on 24.04.2015 at 23:48

If for instance Russians invaded Mexico, and started planning to put Nuclear warheads near the border, I doubt USA would sit idly and do nothing.


I agree , but Ukr , its Ukr ppl who wanted join to EU, not USA organized maiden, ppl ... same times Ukr is not ready, to much post soviets hit, but after 30 years thay be ready, and Ukr in EU can crush Rus regime, VP is not immortal
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  24.04.2015 at 23:58
Written by Bad English on 24.04.2015 at 23:52

Written by Rasputin on 24.04.2015 at 23:48

If for instance Russians invaded Mexico, and started planning to put Nuclear warheads near the border, I doubt USA would sit idly and do nothing.


I agree , but Ukr , its Ukr ppl who wanted join to EU, not USA organized maiden, ppl ... same times Ukr is not ready, to much post soviets hit, but after 30 years thay be ready, and Ukr in EU can crush Rus regime, VP is not immortal

That is actually not true, you have a very small percentage who wanted to join the EU, simply because if you look at Greece, Bulgaria, Romania or Croatia for that matter, no one is prospering from it. The people who wanted to join the EU are the same ones who hate Russia with a passion, and those would be your Nazi groups all around.

I think if Ukraine concedes to return the territory that was given by Russia during the Soviet era, the war can end, and they can join the EU, but they will be in a much worse state then they already are. Let's face it, aside from Germany doing extremely well, there are not many members who are really benefiting from this union, sooner than later EU will collapse, because of the double dealing, corruption and fraud and then you have Russia still watching. I wouldn't fuck with it.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40366

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  25.04.2015 at 00:02
Slavic WP anmd football fans are idiots , liberal and normal ppl likes EU, those football ultras, drug traffickers and other idiots ... if they want back, please why not go, but remember out of EU , it means visa, no travel and so on ... its be pain in the ass

What was given, was given, but I agree , EU don't need not loyal ppl
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Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  25.04.2015 at 00:14
I don't like EU for various reasons, and I am your "normal" individual, however, I am seen as bat shit crazy on this forum and I don't give a flying fuck. I don't think this issue with Ukraine would have been as bad if they did not start the ethnic cleansing campaign. I would say that the Ukrainian conflict has the same parameters as does the Croatian/Serbian conflict. The only difference is, Russia sent men to stop the purge, while Serbia was unable to do so, which resulted in over 350000 Serbians to be expelled or killed from the land that now Croatia controls. I have been following this story closely, and if the East Ukraine was so bad and evil, how come we have more and more Ukrainians switching sides. Last week 100 more changed sides after they saw with their own eyes what happened over there. UN as usual does not do shit, and NATO/USA is arming one side and Russia is helping the other. I think we are past the point where we can assume that the East will give in
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40366

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  25.04.2015 at 00:36
Written by Rasputin on 25.04.2015 at 00:14

I don't like EU for various reasons, and I am your "normal" individual, however, I am seen as bat shit crazy on this forum and I don't give a flying fuck. I don't think this issue with Ukraine would have been as bad if they did not start the ethnic cleansing campaign. I would say that the Ukrainian conflict has the same parameters as does the Croatian/Serbian conflict. The only difference is, Russia sent men to stop the purge, while Serbia was unable to do so, which resulted in over 350000 Serbians to be expelled or killed from the land that now Croatia controls. I have been following this story closely, and if the East Ukraine was so bad and evil, how come we have more and more Ukrainians switching sides. Last week 100 more changed sides after they saw with their own eyes what happened over there. UN as usual does not do shit, and NATO/USA is arming one side and Russia is helping the other. I think we are past the point where we can assume that the East will give in


Cant compare Cro vs Ser, both had equal numbers of troops, only NATO back up Cro, Bos later , when Rus was super week, Ukr vs Rus Ulr would deal whit rebels in 3 weeks in there wont eb Rus troops in , but Balkan war , there was no winners and losers , only dead ppl., serbs did crimes, killed, but same did croats, bosniaks also butchered, Albanians as well, but media, and west simply sees serbs as bad guys. even idependet experts from US, EU, Rus, Geo said it CNN and W media about Balkans was same propaganda as Rus about Ukr ... so , all sides in Balkan war was bad sides ,,, but we see one. Its sad .. same as WWII winners also did war crimes, but ..
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Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  25.04.2015 at 08:46
Written by Bad English on 25.04.2015 at 00:36

Written by Rasputin on 25.04.2015 at 00:14

I don't like EU for various reasons, and I am your "normal" individual, however, I am seen as bat shit crazy on this forum and I don't give a flying fuck. I don't think this issue with Ukraine would have been as bad if they did not start the ethnic cleansing campaign. I would say that the Ukrainian conflict has the same parameters as does the Croatian/Serbian conflict. The only difference is, Russia sent men to stop the purge, while Serbia was unable to do so, which resulted in over 350000 Serbians to be expelled or killed from the land that now Croatia controls. I have been following this story closely, and if the East Ukraine was so bad and evil, how come we have more and more Ukrainians switching sides. Last week 100 more changed sides after they saw with their own eyes what happened over there. UN as usual does not do shit, and NATO/USA is arming one side and Russia is helping the other. I think we are past the point where we can assume that the East will give in


Cant compare Cro vs Ser, both had equal numbers of troops, only NATO back up Cro, Bos later , when Rus was super week, Ukr vs Rus Ulr would deal whit rebels in 3 weeks in there wont eb Rus troops in , but Balkan war , there was no winners and losers , only dead ppl., serbs did crimes, killed, but same did croats, bosniaks also butchered, Albanians as well, but media, and west simply sees serbs as bad guys. even idependet experts from US, EU, Rus, Geo said it CNN and W media about Balkans was same propaganda as Rus about Ukr ... so , all sides in Balkan war was bad sides ,,, but we see one. Its sad .. same as WWII winners also did war crimes, but ..

Actually we can. Serbia may have had the same amount of troops as Croatia, but they were not allowed to use them all, and the majority of the force were the paramilitary groups who ran around without anyone in charge. The same thing happened during the WWII, with the Chetniks, when there was no unified command. The people in Krajina were not protected by the Yugoslav Army, they only had few paramilitary groups, unlike the Bosnians and Croatians who came in as a unified force. The reason why crimes happened, at least from the side of Serbians was because of the paramilitary forces, not the main forces. The Scorpions, paramilitary group did the crime, no one can say that Srebrenica did not happen, it did, but the problem there is that Srebrenica was rigged so it would happen. Clinton asked Alija Izetbegovic to make something happen so the USA/NATO could have more involement, and Alija asked what he had in mind, and basically Clinton said that there has to be some kind of a disaster that would warrant for the foreign troops to get involved. So Alija picked between two towns and chose Srebrenica (keep in mind that Naser Oric under the command of Alija, ethnically cleanses over 55 villages around that area so when they obliterated another Serbian village was when the Serbian paramilitary and Republika Srpska military came). Ratko Mladic offered all of the Bosnians in that region several months prior, free and safe travel across the Drina river so they can go to Tuzla, and for all the Serbians to cross the river the opposite way, that way no one would suffer and be killed, but when the Bosnian representative went to tell that to Alija, he ignored it and waited for a disaster to happen. There is also another video where Ratko Mladic filled up an entire bus with the captured Bosnians and let them go, telling them that if they come back they would be killed, of course Alija sent them back to be killed. The funny thing is, I learned lot more coming to USA and having access to more information and technology, and I can safely say that the Serbians have the least amount of blood on their hands. If Croatia decided to separate peacefully, with the agreement of the Serbians who were a constitutive majority, the war would have never happened, and that pretty much goes for Bosnia as well.

Now, you are right, there is propaganda on all sides, but I have been watching and reading both reports, and all I can say is that the Ukrainian forces have done some hardcore crimes in comparison to Donjetsk, Luganks, Slavjanoserbsk, and few other areas, which pretty much captured the soldiers and released them, while the other side executed and tortured. I see both sides my friend.
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  25.04.2015 at 12:53
Speaking about the nice people in West Ukraine
http://dnr-news.com/video/19003-ukrofashisty-raspyali-opolchenca-na-kreste-a-potom-podozhgli.html
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40366

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  25.04.2015 at 13:54
Are this is simple (BTW 70% of Russians are soviets, new natiuon what Stalin and leaders tried to made, all nations in ussr speak in one language , Russian )

But all this is basic ... HATE
Greeks hates Croats because suck Beograd patriarch dick and are proud be of orthodox nation more as part of Europe
Serbs hate ex Yugoslavians , because if war
ex Yugoslavian nations hate Serbs for same reason
Hungarians and Romanians hate each other
all in Balkans hates gypsies
Pols, Cceshs, Slovaks hates Russian for occupation
Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians hate Russia for occupation
Russians hates all westerners and americans because of propaganda
Georgians hates Russia
Muslims hates America
Pakiatsnians and Indians hates each other because Kashmir
x football team fan hates y because they are ftiends whitz and zi is enemy of y and brothers of b

Now ukraians will hate Russians , 10 years ago to me Ukr and Rus was one, samne soviet shit, sovietzied streets, lenin, stalin monument, celebrating 9th may what is symbol of soviet occupation, while in west it was 8th may and non cares about it, ... now Ukr in last 2 years are get rid of all soviet and Russian things, smartest move be they be Catholics soon. Soon they will watch more W TV as Rus one. 2 years ago they were same, one post Sovietized Slavic land whit curse to societ union, now it becaume anti soviet state whit rebelion spirit ... Balticas was more west even in 87 as UYkr had 2 years ago
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5714
From: Australia

  Today at 01:49
Written by Rasputin on 25.04.2015 at 08:46


Actually we can. Serbia may have had the same amount of troops as Croatia, but they were not allowed to use them all, and the majority of the force were the paramilitary groups who ran around without anyone in charge. The same thing happened during the WWII, with the Chetniks, when there was no unified command. The people in Krajina were not protected by the Yugoslav Army, they only had few paramilitary groups, unlike the Bosnians and Croatians who came in as a unified force. The reason why crimes happened, at least from the side of Serbians was because of the paramilitary forces, not the main forces.



This is untrue. The JNA was involved even if it was merely relabelling their units. E.g. Serbs in both Krajina and Bosnia had their own air forces which were transferred from JNA. The JNA didn't just give them all the forces in the country - they gave them things they could use against Croat and Bosnian forces: fighter bombers (Oraos, Galebs/Jastrebs and Super Galebs) and helicopter gunships (SA-341/342 Gazelles). They withdrew interceptor units equipped with MiG-21s and most SAMs. They provided other heavy weapons and logistic support.

Fighting in Slavonia in Vukovar saw direct JNA involvement with heavy armour, artillery and air support.

Croatia started off with paramilitaries but then developed them into a proper military force complete with artillery, armour and airforce through Eastern European black market sources. There's rumours Germany may have facilitated here.


I'm not here to play a blame game - my interest is pure military history.
Rasputin

Posts: 300
From: USA
  Today at 11:48
Written by deadone on Today at 01:49

Written by Rasputin on 25.04.2015 at 08:46


Actually we can. Serbia may have had the same amount of troops as Croatia, but they were not allowed to use them all, and the majority of the force were the paramilitary groups who ran around without anyone in charge. The same thing happened during the WWII, with the Chetniks, when there was no unified command. The people in Krajina were not protected by the Yugoslav Army, they only had few paramilitary groups, unlike the Bosnians and Croatians who came in as a unified force. The reason why crimes happened, at least from the side of Serbians was because of the paramilitary forces, not the main forces.



This is untrue. The JNA was involved even if it was merely relabelling their units. E.g. Serbs in both Krajina and Bosnia had their own air forces which were transferred from JNA. The JNA didn't just give them all the forces in the country - they gave them things they could use against Croat and Bosnian forces: fighter bombers (Oraos, Galebs/Jastrebs and Super Galebs) and helicopter gunships (SA-341/342 Gazelles). They withdrew interceptor units equipped with MiG-21s and most SAMs. They provided other heavy weapons and logistic support.

Fighting in Slavonia in Vukovar saw direct JNA involvement with heavy armour, artillery and air support.

Croatia started off with paramilitaries but then developed them into a proper military force complete with artillery, armour and airforce through Eastern European black market sources. There's rumours Germany may have facilitated here.


I'm not here to play a blame game - my interest is pure military history.

I did not say that JNA did not have involvement, but it did not operate to the full effect as a cohesive unit, it operated sporadically, was disorganized, ordered to stand down several times, did not even deploy at times (villages around Srebrenica got ethnically cleansed and JNA was not even there to stop it, or during the operations "Flash" and "Storm" there was no resistance really against what was happening) and yes, it gave supplies to Republika Srpska, but so did the Germany/USA and the rest to Croatia and Bosnia. The problems from the Serbian side were sanctions, embargos, NATO, the mafia which controlled all three countries and manipulated the conflict to profit from the war, as I imagine you have seen. Who kept selling and giving Bosnians the bullets and weapons even in the so called "neutral zone?"

I am speaking of only the things that I have seen, and the things that I have researched from my side, and all I can say is that all of this could have been stopped and prevented if proper channels were followed, and as much as I dislike what happened there, I will not blame Serbia for this and that, since it was not Serbia who wanted to break away from the Federation illegally. What JNA did, any other country and army would do. If Texas separated from the USA, I doubt that the USA would just sit idly and do nothing. Historically, we already have had issues here in the USA when places wanted to separate one from another (West Virginia from Virginia) and it did not end well, same thing applies to the War of the States, or so called American Civil War. I am not justifying the death and destruction on any side, but honestly with everything that happened, I am not surprised.

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