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The original post

Posted by toxx on 16.05.2014 at 08:03
An interesting topic, indeed!

Here we can discuss the the differences in the laws, prisons and legal systems of the world. How is it where you live, and what effect does your system have on criminals? Positive or negative? And what is the worst punishment a criminal can get sentenced to in your country/state?



Page 3 of 3

no one

Posts: 2239

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  27.05.2014 at 09:49
Fucked if i know, i wouldn't be surprised.

My old man has been a successful business manager for various timber and dairy factories for years, all while running/ making and selling subyway franchises at the same time... so that's one
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toxx
Supreme being

Posts: 292

Age: 27
From: Norway

  03.07.2014 at 17:25
Written by toxx on 23.05.2014 at 09:42

A guy that has been in jail since 1993 is being released in Norway this year. He has served for a murder, and several cases of rape. He was initially in prison for rape, and when released on parole in 93 he went to a bar, went home with a woman, then raped and strangled her to death. The first day! During his imprisonment, they have tried to move him to a low security prison island several times. The one I posted a pic from earlier. Every time he has broken the rules and assaulted other inmates, and then been moved back to a high security prison. The same prison as Breivik. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ila_Detention_and_Security_Prison

I think they should consider holding him for life. I'll bet that he will commit another violent crime within the first month of his release. Some people just cannot be released, for the sake of society. I think it's pretty messed up, but the law states that he has to be released when he has served his time. You can't get an extended sentence for what you do during your imprisonment, so the fact that he is a violent maniac doesn't change a thing.


Sooo. The guy was released in the end of May. He is now back behind bars for four weeks, charged with a new case of rape. Good call releasing him!
Ilham
attention whore*

Posts: 2896

Age: 25
From: Morocco

  03.07.2014 at 19:35
Written by toxx on 03.07.2014 at 17:25

Sooo. The guy was released in the end of May. He is now back behind bars for four weeks, charged with a new case of rape. Good call releasing him!

Maybe he just really likes prison. A bit like Charlie Bronson. But Bronson used less violent means to get back in prison. I should watch that movie again. Ah, Tom Hardy...
Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 15239

Age: 21
From: Sweden

  03.07.2014 at 20:07
Norway and Sweden are really...... Let's say naive when it comes to prison.
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Slayer666

Posts: 2371

Age: 20
From: Serbia

  03.07.2014 at 20:18
Much like some countries go way overboard when it comes to being "hard on crime", some others just to go in a completely opposite direction and end up with this sort of shit.
Rehabilitation and re-integration into society can only work on non-animals, that 21 years max prison sentence regardless of what you do is complete BS when it comes to people like that dude. Keep him in the slammer forever, not because it's "justice" or whatever, but simply to keep him from raping and/or killing others.
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18673
From: Canada

  03.07.2014 at 22:39
Somewhat relevant: http://www.lfpress.com/2014/07/03/paul-bernardo-plans-to-marry-ontario-woman
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deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4139
From: Australia

  08.07.2014 at 01:55
Written by Mr. Doctor on 03.07.2014 at 20:07

Norway and Sweden are really...... Let's say naive when it comes to prison.


Most of the West is.

Look at the case of entertainer Rolf Harris who was convicted of numerous accounts of pedophilia in Britain - he was sentenced to a mere 5 years 9 months and he only has to serve half.

And he actually got a pretty harsh penalty - here in Australia numerous sex offenders get small suspended sentences (basically no gaol time and they only go to prison if they commit more crimes). The average for rape is about 2-3 years and time served is usually much less.

Just recently a grandfather got a mere 2 years for molesting his grandson. Judge called it a harsh sentence.

To put it in perspective, these pieces of shit ruin lives of innocents and then get virtually nothing.


Personally I'd just take them to the back of the court house upon guilty verdict being found and put a bullet in the back of their heads.
Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 15239

Age: 21
From: Sweden

  08.07.2014 at 02:05
I was all fine with your comment until I read death penalty. I sincerely consider it stupid. But whatever.
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Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
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Ilham
attention whore*

Posts: 2896

Age: 25
From: Morocco

  08.07.2014 at 02:13
It's funny how younger kids these days seem to be more in favour of death penalty. I remember doing the mandatory debate classes in middle school and high school on that subject, and we always had a hard time finding someone to debate for it. So someone had to "mimic" being for death penalty so as to have some sort of debate.
Ten years later, in design school, our teacher thought it was funny to stage a debate on that subject to train us bullshit our future clients better. As I had been studying a few years before that, I was the oldest in my class at 23, and most were 18/19. We were only two debating against death penalty.
Vombatus
Title

Posts: 1410
From: Switzerland

  08.07.2014 at 02:22
Some people proved repeatedly they aren't fit to live in "society". Death penalty is a simple way to have one less problem with these kind of individuals, cheaper/faster.
Of course it brings all sorts of moral dilemas and blablabla, so there's always an ambivalence (both sides have good points).
But people that don't have any type of moral, values or respect towards others shouldn't expect anything in return in that department so I wouldn't pity them if they get killed for crimes they commited.

I get quite irritated and mad when talking about prison systems ("western" type in particular), so I'll stop here
Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 15239

Age: 21
From: Sweden

  08.07.2014 at 03:03
I just don't see the point of it really. To me it doesn't have to do with any sort of emotion. I just find it useless bu then again, rehab can be just as useless.
I'm just glad I don't work with shit like that because I sincerely wouldn't know what to do with some dipshit maniac.
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Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
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deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4139
From: Australia

  08.07.2014 at 04:57
I think there's some rational reasons for death penalty:

1. Threat to others. These people have proven to be willing to hurt other people. What's saying they won't do that to others after they get released from prison?

We put down dogs that bite people, then why not pyschopaths, rapists etc and others who are dangerous to members of society?


2. Prisons costs a lot of money. It's anywhere up to $150,000 per annum to keep a prisoner locked up. Executing violent offenders removes that costs and allows it to be put to other better uses - education, health and rehabilitating victim.


3. Deterrence though this may be questionable. Maybe if executions were conducted more quickly without waiting for years for order, they would work better as deterrence.


4. Very often violent offenders are often impossible to rehabilitate. Reoffending rates for most criminals are up to 85% locally. They often belong to a culture of violence or are simply inclined to violence as they are sociopaths.

5. Personally I think that these people need to be punished and what better punshiment than having one's life deprived especially if they deprived others of life or have purposefully hurt someone else.





I've known drug dealers, armed robbers, burglars, petty thugs and even one murderer in my youth. They have no respect for law or for other people. Most of them spiral into crime - first it might be burglaries and petty theft or peddling dope and then it gets worse.

Some of them did prison time and it did not rehabilitate them.

Some of them were positively scary - they liked hurting people and actively sought confrontation in order to be able to pulp someone. And I didn't know everything they did - but then girlfriends with black eyes tells one a lot.

Some of them definitely deserved the death penalty, especially the murderer who smashed a dude's head in with a shovel cause he wanted the dude's girlfriend. Some of the others did too simply because they were extremely dangerous and liked hurting people.
no one

Posts: 2239

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  08.07.2014 at 08:47
So you want death penalty's for burglars petty thieves and drug dealers?

i'v known plenty of the people (apart from murderers) like you have mentioned and they have learnt and become good people in society. My uncle has been dealing meth and so forth all his life, but now he is a sober millionaire!....the moneys not from the drugs but successful businesses.

I think they could have harsher penalty's, but ya don't have to kill them off just ye

i do favor death penalty for people like ian watkins and serial killers and so forth, but it kind of seems like an easy escape. As i said in the shout box once, just tie them up and leave them there till there dead.
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deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4139
From: Australia

  08.07.2014 at 09:16
Written by no one on 08.07.2014 at 08:47

So you want death penalty's for burglars petty thieves and drug dealers?


Never said that - actually went on a tanjent about overall rehabilitation.


But there are burglars, petty thieves and drug dealers who are scary psychopaths though.

Some of the local ones I used to know have "graduated" to shooting people and beating them up and doing such fucked up stuff as injecting people with their own saliva to people that owe them drug money or just beating up people for fun (e.g. random king hits on unsupecting passer bys). Wife and a friend who both work in legal system talk about them and I recognise the names from my youth.

The only reason they've not killed anyone or more correctly been caught killing anyone is that they're crap shots when it comes to drive by shootings and that there is a lot of places around Tassie you can bury a body.

There's plenty of stories in the paper too about old people being near beaten to death for no reason except they happen to be home during a burglary..

I think it's funny how people assume burglary, drug dealing and petty theft are non-violent softer crimes when there is often violence involved.


Quote:

i'v known plenty of the people (apart from murderers) like you have mentioned and they have learnt and become good people in society. My uncle has been dealing meth and so forth all his life, but now he is a sober millionaire!....the moneys not from the drugs but successful businesses.

I think they could have harsher penalty's, but ya don't have to kill them off just ye


None of the one's I knew have "rehabilitated" to any degree at least whilst I knew them. Some got into ice which messed them up even more. And some I know hear through the courts!

Harsher penalties would be good - mainly prison time and then not in cushy prisons but rather something more similar to the 19th century ones.

And the truly nasty ones probably do need to be executed, especially if they're doing drive bys, beating people up in burglaries for no reason etc etc.

Quote:
i do favor death penalty for people like ian watkins and serial killers and so forth, but it kind of seems like an easy escape. As i said in the shout box once, just tie them up and leave them there till there dead.


Problem is bleeding hearts who protect the rights of violent offenders.
no one

Posts: 2239

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  08.07.2014 at 09:50
Written by deadone on 08.07.2014 at 09:16

I think it's funny how people assume burglary, drug dealing and petty theft are non-violent softer crimes when there is often violence involved.

well by themselves it's not worth a death penalty

Quote:

None of the one's I knew have "rehabilitated" to any degree at least whilst I knew them. Some got into ice which messed them up even more. And some I know hear through the courts!

beating people up in burglaries for no reason etc etc.


still don't think beating people up for no reason and burglaries are worth killing people for.
Again i think harsher punishments would be better than... basically exterminating a shit load of desperate people from neighborhoods living in poverty.
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Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18673
From: Canada

  08.07.2014 at 16:27
Written by deadone on 08.07.2014 at 09:16
Problem is bleeding hearts who protect the rights of violent offenders.

Because sometimes those violent offenders end up turning a corner and doing good with their lives. Apparently based on your experiences there is a 0% rehabilitation success rate, which is quite unfortunate since I'd probably estimate based on my experiences for it to be closer to 75%.
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Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 15239

Age: 21
From: Sweden

  08.07.2014 at 16:34
Written by deadone on 08.07.2014 at 04:57

5. Personally I think that these people need to be punished and what better punshiment than having one's life deprived especially if they deprived others of life or have purposefully hurt someone else.

Better punishment? I call it the easy and fast way out. Also,. when it comes to the most extreme individuals it wouldn't surprise me if most of those fuckers don't even care about dying, that would be salvation to them. Death penalty is useless for people who aren't afraid to die. It might help fsome people and their biblical sense of vengeance, whatever that's supposed to mean...

Might cost more money? Sure, but I rather have them locked up forever which wouldn't surprise me if most inmates consider it far worse.
----
Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
Ilham
attention whore*

Posts: 2896

Age: 25
From: Morocco

  08.07.2014 at 16:50
I want to throw a little culture in the mix.
I can't force anyone to read the books, so here are interesting wiki links talking about said books:

- Victor Hugo's novel telling the last moments of a man facing his execution.
- Albert Camus on death penalty.
- And Robert Badinter, responsible of the abolition of death penalty in France, for which he dedicated his life.
Vombatus
Title

Posts: 1410
From: Switzerland

  08.07.2014 at 18:34
Written by Mr. Doctor on 08.07.2014 at 16:34

Better punishment? I call it the easy and fast way out. Also,. when it comes to the most extreme individuals it wouldn't surprise me if most of those fuckers don't even care about dying, that would be salvation to them. Death penalty is useless for people who aren't afraid to die. It might help fsome people and their biblical sense of vengeance, whatever that's supposed to mean...

Might cost more money? Sure, but I rather have them locked up forever which wouldn't surprise me if most inmates consider it far worse.


Agree. For me death penalty is only a fast way to make sure some poor bastard ceases to be a threat, but in most cases it is not a proper chastisement for what they deserve.

Life sentence in hideous conditions so he withers and rots until he dies would be much better. And it would cost less so everyones happy !! (hmmm I think they should generaly make prisons "horrible" places, so it takes down the budget and fit better the purpose given to them).
no one

Posts: 2239

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  08.07.2014 at 21:42
^ totally agree to both posts
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deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4139
From: Australia

  09.07.2014 at 03:29
Quote:
Written by no one on 08.07.2014 at 09:50

beating people up in burglaries for no reason etc etc.


still don't think beating people up for no reason and burglaries are worth killing people for.
Again i think harsher punishments would be better than... basically exterminating a shit load of desperate people from neighborhoods living in poverty.



There's a thing call personal responsibility.

I came from one of those poor neighbourhoods (it's such a shit hole it was featured on Bogan Hunters tv show [urk]http://www.boganhunters.com.au/[/url]). I grew up poor by Australian standards and didn't become a drug dealing, violent thug.

And you don't think beating up an old lady to an inch of her life for fun or belting someone up for fun is a harsh crime?


And they're certainly not desperate either - peddling drugs + social welfare + concessions kept them in pretty luxurious living compared to a lot in the world. Most of these guys had a the latest mobile phones, gaming consoles etc etc etc. They lived in squalor cause they chose to - house work wasn't high on their list of priorities.

They had free education, near free health, subsidised housing (often three bedroom stand alone homes) etc.


And they still chose to be pieces of human shit who engaged in crime, often of a violent nature. Their devolved culture didn't help - work was viewed as bad, laws were bad, the government owed them a lot more, crime was ok, spousal abuse was ok and using violence to get what you want was ok.



Your post reminds me of two sociology lecturers I had at Uni.

In one lecture they were going on how many poor people were essentially rebelling against system and this is why they vandalised things and property and were desperate so stole things. Basically they were describing them as some sort socialist revolutionaries with Robin Hood tendencies.

I put my hand up and told them I knew quite a few people who did these kind of crimes and their main reason was they thought it was funny (it's why we trashed road signs and spray painted things) and the ones that stole did it for things they wanted like video games or expensive shoes or to get money for booze and drugs.

The comment I got from one of the lecturers was that they would never invite me for dinner. They then never raised the subject again.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4139
From: Australia

  09.07.2014 at 03:34
Written by Vombatus on 08.07.2014 at 18:34

Written by Mr. Doctor on 08.07.2014 at 16:34

Better punishment? I call it the easy and fast way out. Also,. when it comes to the most extreme individuals it wouldn't surprise me if most of those fuckers don't even care about dying, that would be salvation to them. Death penalty is useless for people who aren't afraid to die. It might help fsome people and their biblical sense of vengeance, whatever that's supposed to mean...

Might cost more money? Sure, but I rather have them locked up forever which wouldn't surprise me if most inmates consider it far worse.


Agree. For me death penalty is only a fast way to make sure some poor bastard ceases to be a threat, but in most cases it is not a proper chastisement for what they deserve.

Life sentence in hideous conditions so he withers and rots until he dies would be much better. And it would cost less so everyones happy !! (hmmm I think they should generaly make prisons "horrible" places, so it takes down the budget and fit better the purpose given to them).



Totally agree.


I do think some crimes are too nasty to let someone live though.


There is the utilisation of resources on keeping prisoners alive. I'd rather see that spent on education, health and employment opportunities.

But if you made prisons truly horrific, then their running costs would be cheaper so you can spend balance on positive empowering social welfare. Everyones a winner.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4139
From: Australia

  09.07.2014 at 04:17
Written by Troy Killjoy on 08.07.2014 at 16:27

Written by deadone on 08.07.2014 at 09:16
Problem is bleeding hearts who protect the rights of violent offenders.

Because sometimes those violent offenders end up turning a corner and doing good with their lives. Apparently based on your experiences there is a 0% rehabilitation success rate, which is quite unfortunate since I'd probably estimate based on my experiences for it to be closer to 75%.


Are those proper stats, or just pure "in my experience"?

In Australia 63% reoffend (recidivism). 64% of parolees are reconvicted. This is from government and private studies.

Doesn't mean the all the other 37% don't reoffend. Just means some don't get caught. Indeed none of the drug dealers I knew in my youth were ever arrested at any point I knew them. Other crimes ala spousal abuse and assault also went unreported - girlfriends with bruised faces or guys that were messed up or in two instances accidental gunshot wounds that were reported as accidents but both involved the kneecap. As did the petty acts of vandalism my mates and I did as teenagers.



Deindustrialisation, availability of drugs, cultural decay and ever shorter prison sentences have all contributed to increasing crime rates.

Locally offences against the person were about 400-500 per 100,000 people pre-1950. Now it's 3,600 on average per 100,000 persons. Some of that is more open reporting of sexual assault, but not all. Drug offences and car theft have skyrocketed, growing by up to 25+% per annum. There were some falls in 2012/13 but overall society is far more criminalised than it was pre-1950.
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18673
From: Canada

  09.07.2014 at 04:33
Written by deadone on 09.07.2014 at 04:17
Are those proper stats, or just pure "in my experience"?

Just personal experience.

Here are some proper stats:

"The reconviction rate for all the releases in the first year was 44% with the reconviction rate for violence considerably lower (14%). The non-violent reconviction rate was 30% accounting for the majority of reconvictions. In each successive year, the reconviction rate decreased (43% and 41%). Significant differences in rates were found between men and women, with women being reconvicted at much lower rates then men. The reconviction rate for women fell during the three years studied from 30% to 23%. In addition, reconviction rates were higher for Aboriginal male offenders than Non-Aboriginal males (58% vs. 42%). As with women, the reconviction rate for Aboriginal offenders also decreased (57% to 53%).

Finally, slightly more than half of all reconvictions occurred after the offenders completed their sentences. Approximately 15% to 19% of reconvictions occurred while under supervision and 24% to 26% of reconvictions were after the completion of sentence." (Source)
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deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4139
From: Australia

  09.07.2014 at 04:45
Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.07.2014 at 04:33

Written by deadone on 09.07.2014 at 04:17
Are those proper stats, or just pure "in my experience"?

Just personal experience.

Here are some proper stats:

"The reconviction rate for all the releases in the first year was 44% with the reconviction rate for violence considerably lower (14%). The non-violent reconviction rate was 30% accounting for the majority of reconvictions. In each successive year, the reconviction rate decreased (43% and 41%). Significant differences in rates were found between men and women, with women being reconvicted at much lower rates then men. The reconviction rate for women fell during the three years studied from 30% to 23%. In addition, reconviction rates were higher for Aboriginal male offenders than Non-Aboriginal males (58% vs. 42%). As with women, the reconviction rate for Aboriginal offenders also decreased (57% to 53%).

Finally, slightly more than half of all reconvictions occurred after the offenders completed their sentences. Approximately 15% to 19% of reconvictions occurred while under supervision and 24% to 26% of reconvictions were after the completion of sentence." (Source)



Thanks. So Canada does better than Australia or England.


It'd be interesting to see cause behind this.

Is it a case of:


1. Better rehabilitation programs.

2. Cultural factors (Australian bogan culture is criminalised by default due to complete social acceptance of drug and alcohol abuse as well as violence as means of resolving problems).

3. Better assimilation of migrants to create better opportunities and thus deter from criminal activities (in Sydney and Melbourne, certain ethnic groups have been very active in certain crimes e.g. car theft rings run by Lebanese or heroin smuggling run by Vietnamese gangs).

4. Maintenance of manufacturing and other low skill/low education requirement work. These kind of jobs are largely being eliminated from Australia as well as UK as manufacturing moves off shore.

5. Social welfare dependence levels - in Australia this is quite a problem and from what I've read it's present in Britain as well. Social welfare dependency and associated social problems leads to potential for greater criminalisation.

6. Decaying public educaton system that has been stripped of resources (certainly happening in Australia where private schools often get as much or more government funding per student than public ones). Functional illiteracy in Australia is 33%-50% depending on the study.


Or is it all of the above - have the Canadians just done it all better?
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18673
From: Canada

  09.07.2014 at 05:05
Written by deadone on 09.07.2014 at 04:45
Is it a case of:
2. Cultural factors (Australian bogan culture is criminalised by default due to complete social acceptance of drug and alcohol abuse as well as violence as means of resolving problems).

3. Better assimilation of migrants to create better opportunities and thus deter from criminal activities (in Sydney and Melbourne, certain ethnic groups have been very active in certain crimes e.g. car theft rings run by Lebanese or heroin smuggling run by Vietnamese gangs).

We definitely haven't done it all better, although I'm sure the leaders of our country would love to hear that their propaganda is working. In fact our prison system is something that has been consistently regarded as one of the worst of all developed nations, rivaled only by the likes of the US.

I highlighted number 2 and 3 since those are the ones I think might be a legitimate reason for our success as it were. Culturally, Canadians are generally considered to be a very passive, non-violent, and socialist group of people. I have lived - or at least spent a significant amount of time - in all of Canada's provinces aside from Nova Scotia and I can honestly say this is a pretty fair generalization.

Ultimately all the other reasons you listed are problems that exist in Canada just like anywhere else.
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no one

Posts: 2239

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  09.07.2014 at 08:46
Written by deadone on 09.07.2014 at 03:29

...

wow..you got that all from my little post. I never said burglary wasn't a bad crime, i just don't think you should be murdered for it.

To be honest me and you will never agree on much so i'm not going to commit to any argument, especially when i know it will never go anywhere.

ps You got the wrong idea if you relate my posts to those lecture examples.
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MetallicA

Posts: 913

Age: 27
From: USA

  14.07.2014 at 04:04
Interesting topic. In the US, it depends on what state you're in to determine how long you stay in jail for certain crimes. Typically for a DUI (Driving Under the Influence of alcohol) in just about any state you'll stay in jail overnight and get some really hefty fines and your license suspended for several months. If you murder someone & are found guilty, you'll be in jail for quite a long time. The sentences vary. The jails here can be pretty bad (not in terms of cleanliness but in terms of crime) Folks get beat up by other inmates all the time over the dumbest things. Other jails aren't as bad. We also have the death penalty but not all states allow it.

My brother did 6 months in a jail 8 years ago for having a warrant out for his arrest. The warrant was for failure to appear to court (I think it was for speeding and he had weed on him) He got caught because he & his girlfriend at the time were having a screaming match in my front yard & the neighbors called the cops. The cops looked up my brother in their system, saw the warrant and took him to jail. He went to the county jail just outside of a big city. The jail is 13 stories and each floor had certain types of inmates. One floor (I forget which one) had all the psychopaths, another had the folks who have done really violent crimes, etc. My brother was in the floor with folks who did similar stuff to what he did...just non-violent small crimes. He has been a few other times (only for like 1 or 2 nights at a time) and he said once he had to hide under one of the beds with a fork ready to stab folks with it (in self defense) who tried to fuck with him. While he was in for 6 months, some dude got caught jerking off and needless to say, that dude got beat up for it. Thankfully, he hasn't been back to jail since. He's cleaned up since then...he just had to learn the hard way while a teen/ young adult.
----

God's disciples want you to die!
In the blazing inferno
Slewed on Satan's pitchfork
Burning for eternity
Death
I see it coming your way
by my hand... or by your fate
with no remorse.
MetallicA

Posts: 913

Age: 27
From: USA

  14.07.2014 at 04:12
But getting a tarred tire thrown around your neck while burning alive sounds terrible. Jeez. That's fucking crazy!
----

God's disciples want you to die!
In the blazing inferno
Slewed on Satan's pitchfork
Burning for eternity
Death
I see it coming your way
by my hand... or by your fate
with no remorse.

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