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The original post

Posted by Ganondox on 04.08.2014 at 06:26
Extreme metal and underground metal are often used synonym, but technically metal can be underground without being extreme. For example, while power metal has mainstream popularity in europe, it's considered to be underground in the US, and many other metal subgenres are much more underground than power metal, even some extreme metal subgenres, like neoclassical metal. This brings to the next point. Even though undergroundness is supposed to be inherent to the idea of extreme metal, a few extreme metal bands have broken into the mainstream. Aside from the big four of thrash, there are a few individual extreme metal bands like Lamb of God and Cannibal Corpse who are pretty popular for metal bands, and the most popular genre of metal right now among modern bands, metalcore, is based in extreme metal, the popular bands just have softer metal and pop elements to make it accessible. However, for the most part mainstream metal bands are in the non-extreme genres/extreme metal is underground, and the popular bands in the non-extreme genres are more mainstream than the popular bands in the extreme genres, so that brings the question: Can extreme and underground be considered to be the same thing?



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Guib

Posts: 2061

Age: 23
From: Canada

  09.08.2014 at 23:36
Written by Aristarchos on 09.08.2014 at 14:32

About Rush I would also add that I would probably never heard songs like Working Man or Tom Sawyer if I wasn't in this kind of music. I have heard Megadeth and Slayer more on radio than I have heard Rush. What is also interesting is that I have met at least three persons who talked about how much they loved Pink Floyd, but when I mentioned Rush, they had no idea of how they sounded (perhaps they knew the name), and when I played songs to them, they didn't seem to recognize them.

Well that my friend is one hell of a surprise. In any case for me... I mean they've been
Around since what... end of the 60's. It's so strange. Well you sweden folks
Are real metal fans :-P
----
- I love my technical, melodic, my thrash, agressive and fast paced, my sludge, well thought, my heavy, heavier and my metal, ever-growing -
Aristarchos

Posts: 755

Age: 30
From: Sweden
  10.08.2014 at 13:11
Written by Guib on 09.08.2014 at 23:36

Well that my friend is one hell of a surprise. In any case for me... I mean they've been
Around since what... end of the 60's. It's so strange. Well you sweden folks
Are real metal fans :-P

I don't have any album sales number, but I could illustrate it with comparing the highest chart position on Swedish album chart for different bands:
Rush #6
Slayer #4
Megadeth #4
Dream Theater #3 (two albums)
Iron Maiden #1 (four albums, also one #1 on single chart)
Metallica #1 (six albums)
In Flames #1 (two albums)
HammerFall #1 (two albums)
Sabaton #1
Ghost #1
Watain #1
Nightwish #3
Dark Tranquillity #3
Entombed #3
Evergrey #4
Opeth #4
Haunted #5
Pain Of Salvation #6
Anthrax #21
Cannibal Corpse #37
Nile #27
Morbid Angel #41
Behemoth #45
Killswitch Engage #48
Trivium #56
I also doubt any of the deathcore bands have charted top 60.
Azarath

Posts: 463

Age: 31
From: Finland

  10.08.2014 at 21:30
I get what Aristarchos is talking about. From my experience Rush doesn't have the name recognition and mainstream presence in our northern corner of the world as they have in North America and (possibly) the UK. I'd never heard of the band until I started visiting various internet forums and boards. I've heard them on the radio once - a couple of years back the host for a hard rock / metal program said he'd read something about this band called Rush so he picked up Moving Pictures. And then he played "Vital Signs".
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 3812
From: Australia

  11.08.2014 at 06:14
Written by Aristarchos on 09.08.2014 at 14:28

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 13:28

I think old folks and so called intelectuals kew BIG 4 was on Swe TV

Still I'm not sure how many people outside metal could mention who the big 4 was, since every focus seemed to be on Metallica.



Outside of Metallica and to a far lesser degree Megadeth, most people I've ever talked to haven't heard of Anthrax or Slayer. These bands are nothing in Australia outside of the metal community.

As for Rush, I doubt many "non-metallers" would've heard them here. I've only ever met one person who liked them in the local rock and metal communities. He was also the only person I've ever met who liked Jethro Tull as well.
Diverge

Posts: 675
From: Canada
  11.08.2014 at 07:16
Written by deadone on 11.08.2014 at 06:14

Written by Aristarchos on 09.08.2014 at 14:28

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 13:28

I think old folks and so called intelectuals kew BIG 4 was on Swe TV

Still I'm not sure how many people outside metal could mention who the big 4 was, since every focus seemed to be on Metallica.

As for Rush, I doubt many "non-metallers" would've heard them here. I've only ever met one person who liked them in the local rock and metal communities. He was also the only person I've ever met who liked Jethro Tull as well.

Oh come on! In your local rock and metal communities, you've only encountered one person who knew of Rush and Jethro Tull. That seems suspect to me.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 3812
From: Australia

  11.08.2014 at 08:31
Written by Diverge on 11.08.2014 at 07:16

Oh come on! In your local rock and metal communities, you've only encountered one person who knew of Rush and Jethro Tull. That seems suspect to me.



Learn to read. I said "liked them."

Actually I forgot his best buddy who liked Jethro Tull too.
Diverge

Posts: 675
From: Canada
  11.08.2014 at 14:49
Written by deadone on 11.08.2014 at 08:31

Written by Diverge on 11.08.2014 at 07:16

Oh come on! In your local rock and metal communities, you've only encountered one person who knew of Rush and Jethro Tull. That seems suspect to me.



Learn to read. I said "liked them."

Actually I forgot his best buddy who liked Jethro Tull too.

Early morning posting- woops. I apologize if I obfuscated your point. You don't think many have HEARD Rush and you don't know many in your own rock community who LIKE Rush and Jethro Tull. Those two suggestions are still pretty ludicrous.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 3812
From: Australia

  12.08.2014 at 02:45
Written by Diverge on 11.08.2014 at 14:49

Written by deadone on 11.08.2014 at 08:31

Written by Diverge on 11.08.2014 at 07:16

Oh come on! In your local rock and metal communities, you've only encountered one person who knew of Rush and Jethro Tull. That seems suspect to me.



Learn to read. I said "liked them."

Actually I forgot his best buddy who liked Jethro Tull too.

Early morning posting- woops. I apologize if I obfuscated your point. You don't think many have HEARD Rush and you don't know many in your own rock community who LIKE Rush and Jethro Tull. Those two suggestions are still pretty ludicrous.



The local drugs of choice for the rock guys was either modern stuff ala Foo Fighters, QOTSA, Eagles of Death Metal etc or the sleazy garage rock/punk ala Hellacopters, Backyard Babies, Turbonegro etc or old school stuff ala AC/DC, Sabbath, the Ramones, Led Zeppelin etc etc. Stuff like Sonic Youth and the Seattle and Australian 1990s scene was also popular.

Prog rock didn't seem to float anyone's boat locally other than Pink Floyd. Indeed all the rock bands were generally garage rock or pop rock.

In fact this is probably the most representative of the type of rock music that dominated from the late 1990s to mid 2000s - after that the scene generally died due to pubs preferring gaming machines to live gigs and electronic music:



Metal was initially mainly Death Metal in late 1990s (with some fringe BMers) and then expanded to include melodic DM, Thrash and then Metalcore/Deathcore. The emphasis with young guys was always modern stuff up here, though Hobart developed a few retro bands (Lady Crimson and Wiz'zard) but that is a city 250 km away.




Australia doesn't have a big tradition of progressive rock or even metal for the most part. Australia's hard edge came via the likes of AC/DC, Rose Tattoo and the Angels, all rock bands that were very much rooted in Australian working class tradition. That pub rock vibe has been the cornerstone of Australian rock music ever since.

Metal has never been as popular in Australia as in USA or Europe except for the Guns N Roses/Metallica blip in late 80s/early 90s. In the mid-late 90s it was so dismal that Destroyer 666 moved to Europe as there was virtually no interest in that kind of music in Australia. International metal bands seldom toured here either and the local stuff often sounded pretty average at best and postively shit at worst.

The first Australian metal bands that I'm aware of that went down a prog path were Dreadnought and Alchemist and to be fair no-one seemed to give a fuck about them in my scene (as stated many times - the local old school could be summed up in one word: Suffocation. New guys were more diverse but it was more modern international bands generally). We all went to Dreadnought and Alchemist gigs but the only people I knew who owned their music was a couple of rock guys for Dreadnought (and myself at one point) and my brother's the only person I knew who owned anything Alchemist (Eve of the War EP - great cover).



To end on a positive note, since 2000 Australia's metal scene has grown massively with lots of decent bands emerging and Australia becoming a regular touring spot for international bands. We now even have a music festival (Soundwave) where they get 1-2 "true metal" bands to play alongside the pop punk and hard rock bands (providing it survives as attendances are down at most music festivals in Australia).
Ganondox

Posts: 335

Age: 18
From: USA

  15.08.2014 at 18:32
Written by Guib on 09.08.2014 at 05:52

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 02:36

man Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax was on Nat TV BIG 4 from Ullevi ... same was Maiden in 2005 ..... I think 100% swedes knows what maiden is


Yeah but dude... RUSH... you just can't compare. Doesn't matter on what channel the big 4 was appearing trust me.
If they don't know rush by name... just spin Working Man or Tom Sawyer... trust me they'll know them
Pretty sure you can't do the same for Rainning Blood, Caught In A Mosh, Holy Wars (...) though you probably can for Run To The Hills and Enter Sandman.
And I'm pretty sure more people knows of Rush more than the most popular metal bands, and that worldwide. Look at the sales O.o


The big metal bands are WAY more well known than Rush, no one really cares about Rush anymore except classic rock fans and proggers. Regarding album sales, Iron Maiden has sold more than twice as many albums than Rush, and plenty of other metal bands fill the gap, with some doing even better than Iron Maiden like Metallica.
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18594
From: Canada

  15.08.2014 at 19:04
Written by Ganondox on 15.08.2014 at 18:32
The big metal bands are WAY more well known than Rush, no one really cares about Rush anymore except classic rock fans and proggers. Regarding album sales, Iron Maiden has sold more than twice as many albums than Rush, and plenty of other metal bands fill the gap, with some doing even better than Iron Maiden like Metallica.

Your age is really showing, more so than in other threads where you try to act like an authority on things that predate your existence. I had to re-read this nonsense just to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting anything. No one really cares about Rush anymore? Is that why Snakes & Arrows sold nearly 100,000 copies in its first week of being released? And why the band overall has sold over 25 million units worldwide? I guess it's all those classic rock fans and proggers, but they don't count.

Maiden might be a higher-selling band, but trying to minimize the significance of a band like Rush is laughable. I suggest you research topics you don't know anything about before trying to state facts.
----
Prettier than BloodTears.
Ganondox

Posts: 335

Age: 18
From: USA

  15.08.2014 at 21:04
Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 19:04

Written by Ganondox on 15.08.2014 at 18:32
The big metal bands are WAY more well known than Rush, no one really cares about Rush anymore except classic rock fans and proggers. Regarding album sales, Iron Maiden has sold more than twice as many albums than Rush, and plenty of other metal bands fill the gap, with some doing even better than Iron Maiden like Metallica.

Your age is really showing, more so than in other threads where you try to act like an authority on things that predate your existence. I had to re-read this nonsense just to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting anything. No one really cares about Rush anymore? Is that why Snakes & Arrows sold nearly 100,000 copies in its first week of being released? And why the band overall has sold over 25 million units worldwide? I guess it's all those classic rock fans and proggers, but they don't count.

Maiden might be a higher-selling band, but trying to minimize the significance of a band like Rush is laughable. I suggest you research topics you don't know anything about before trying to state facts.


"Your age is really showing" Maybe it is, but we are here to discuss metal, not make personal attacks against users.

"I wasn't misinterpreting anything." Well you failed at that. It seems the problem is you are taking my comment out of context, and then you read in that I was dissing Rush when I did not such thing. I was replying to this specific sentence: "And I'm pretty sure more people knows of Rush more than the most popular metal bands, and that worldwide. Look at the sales O.o" I looked at the sales, and Rush is apparently less popular than Iron Maiden.

Actually I put Rush at 40 million worldwide, which is more than 25 million (which is their US sales), Maiden is over 80 million. I'm not minimizing Rush's significance, they are an important progressive rock band, enough to get into the Rock N' Roll hall of fame (though it took them forever as it seems whoever runs the institution hates prog and metal), and they are extremely influential on progressive metal in particular, probably the single most influential band on the genre. There are plenty of other extremely influential musical acts that aren't particularly well known, like The Velvet Underground. When I say "no one really cares", obviously I'm not being literal, I'm just saying they aren't as big a band nowadays compared to many other bands. Is Rush well known? Of course, but so are the most popular metal bands. The point is in this thread we aren't talking about Rush, we are talking the popularity of metal bands, so it's meaningless to discuss Rush's absolute popularity among rock bands, only in relation to metal bands, so this is getting off topic. As far as I'm aware the most popular metal bands are much more well known than Rush is, especially among youth. Unless you take census of everyone in the world it's impossible to know for sure, but everyone I know who knows of Rush also knows of the most popular metal bands. On facebook Rush has less than 3 million likes, while Iron Maiden has more than 13 million. Considering this, I think Rush's album scales are actually slightly skewed in their favor because they are more album oriented than most metal bands. The most popular of metal bands are also probably more well known than Rush because they tend to stir up more controversy than Rush, so even if people don't listen to their music, they might have heard of them. While I exaggerated the popularity of the biggest metal bands in comparison to Rush, I'm not taking back my claim that the most popular metal bands are significantly more popular than Rush is.

" I guess it's all those classic rock fans and proggers" A lot of people are fans of classic rock bands, enough to keep them doing well and top the charts most the time, and rockers are one of the largest groups of music fans, but they are still technically a minority of music fans. Metalheads are also a large group of music fans, and some of the most popular metal bands are also considered classic rock bands, like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden (well, maybe Maiden, but definitely Sabbath). Among classic rock bands, Rush is only moderately well known, and they are definitely more well known and respected among metal fans than the general public, who in terms of prog prefer Pink Floyd and Genesis (though was Genesis even still prog when they got popular?). They don't even have any songs I'd consider essential rock classics like Kansas does in order to expose them to the broader public, "Tom Sawyer" being the closest they have to one. While Rush sells more albums, everyone knows "Dust in the Wind", no one knows "Tom Sawyer" except rock fans. Their latest album got a spotlight on an airplane rock radio station I heard once, but that happens pretty much whenever a classic rock band releases a new album.

"I suggest you research topics you don't know anything about before trying to state facts." I actually do, I've done a lot of research in the past, and I made sure to double check my claims before I post anything unless I'm unable to because I'm not on my computer. If you want, I'll add sources. "where you try to act like an authority on things that predate your existence." I don't try to act like an authority on anything, I just type assertively and generally because that's the way I type, otherwise I get overly pedantic. If I find myself to be wrong, I'll admit as such and correct myself. Would you rather I start every claim with "I think"? Here I'm not even talking about anything which predates me, I'm talking about people now, and I think youth are the best to focus on when talking about how well known bands are now because old people get older, then they die, and new people keep being born, but rock has always been associated with youth.
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18594
From: Canada

  15.08.2014 at 21:22
That is a far lengthier response than I was expecting. My only real point in what I said is that Rush isn't some unknown band. Perhaps compared to the likes of Iron Maiden their overall fanbase is far smaller, but you made them sound like one of these obscure underground bands that nobody's ever heard of and stated that as if it was some kind of fact. That was my real problem with your comment - it's the way you presented your opinion. They're in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (as well as the Canadian Music Hall of Fame), which is basically proof that they've achieved high levels of success in terms of sales and popularity.

As for Tom Sawyer - I'm not even sure who made this argument but I know it exists somewhere in this thread - it is in fact a well-known song. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sawyer_(song)
----
Prettier than BloodTears.
Ganondox

Posts: 335

Age: 18
From: USA

  15.08.2014 at 21:40
Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 21:22


As for Tom Sawyer - I'm not even sure who made this argument but I know it exists somewhere in this thread - it is in fact a well-known song. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sawyer_(song)


Yeah, I looked at that while writing that overly long post, which is why I specified that I personally wouldn't put it on a list of essential rock hits. It's at least well known among rock fans, but I'm pretty sure "Dust in the Wind" and "Carry On My Wayward Son" are much more well known songs.
no one

Posts: 2118

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  15.08.2014 at 23:38
Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 19:04

you try to act like an authority on things that predate your existence

seems to be a common thing these days....i blame the internet
Guib

Posts: 2061

Age: 23
From: Canada

  17.08.2014 at 22:46
Written by Ganondox on 15.08.2014 at 21:40

Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 21:22


As for Tom Sawyer - I'm not even sure who made this argument but I know it exists somewhere in this thread - it is in fact a well-known song. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sawyer_(song)


Yeah, I looked at that while writing that overly long post, which is why I specified that I personally wouldn't put it on a list of essential rock hits. It's at least well known among rock fans, but I'm pretty sure "Dust in the Wind" and "Carry On My Wayward Son" are much more well known songs.


Wow to all of the above. I just want to say that I specified in my older post
That there was exceptions like maiden and metallica (when i made the comment about run to the hills
And enter sandman) my point was that iron maiden and metallica had the same or higher notoriety. It was
Actually an argument about swedish knowing more about the likes of slayer anthrax and megadeth. So the whole concersation was
Pointless lol. Fun nonetheless.
----
- I love my technical, melodic, my thrash, agressive and fast paced, my sludge, well thought, my heavy, heavier and my metal, ever-growing -
Ganondox

Posts: 335

Age: 18
From: USA

  18.08.2014 at 00:31
Written by Guib on 17.08.2014 at 22:46

Written by Ganondox on 15.08.2014 at 21:40

Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 21:22


As for Tom Sawyer - I'm not even sure who made this argument but I know it exists somewhere in this thread - it is in fact a well-known song. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sawyer_(song)


Yeah, I looked at that while writing that overly long post, which is why I specified that I personally wouldn't put it on a list of essential rock hits. It's at least well known among rock fans, but I'm pretty sure "Dust in the Wind" and "Carry On My Wayward Son" are much more well known songs.


Wow to all of the above. I just want to say that I specified in my older post
That there was exceptions like maiden and metallica (when i made the comment about run to the hills
And enter sandman) my point was that iron maiden and metallica had the same or higher notoriety. It was
Actually an argument about swedish knowing more about the likes of slayer anthrax and megadeth. So the whole concersation was
Pointless lol. Fun nonetheless.


Ah, I see what you are saying now, didn't follow what you were saying the first time I read that.

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