Extreme metal and underground metal are often used synonym, but technically metal can be underground without being extreme. For example, while power metal has mainstream popularity in europe, it's considered to be underground in the US, and many other metal subgenres are much more underground than power metal, even some extreme metal subgenres, like neoclassical metal. This brings to the next point. Even though undergroundness is supposed to be inherent to the idea of extreme metal, a few extreme metal bands have broken into the mainstream. Aside from the big four of thrash, there are a few individual extreme metal bands like Lamb of God and Cannibal Corpse who are pretty popular for metal bands, and the most popular genre of metal right now among modern bands, metalcore, is based in extreme metal, the popular bands just have softer metal and pop elements to make it accessible. However, for the most part mainstream metal bands are in the non-extreme genres/extreme metal is underground, and the popular bands in the non-extreme genres are more mainstream than the popular bands in the extreme genres, so that brings the question: Can extreme and underground be considered to be the same thing?

OP needs a dictionary.

The answer is no.

There are popular extreme metal bands. There are underground pop artists. Extremity and popularity are in no way mutually exclusive.

/pointless thread

Written by Ganondox on 04.08.2014 at 06:26

... even some extreme metal subgenres, like neoclassical metal.

How the bleep is neoclassical metal extreme metal?
So, you're saying Yngwie Malmsteen is extreme metal. It's as melodic and non-extreme as it gets.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.08.2014 at 12:37

Written by Ganondox on 04.08.2014 at 06:26

... even some extreme metal subgenres, like neoclassical metal.

How the bleep is neoclassical metal extreme metal?
So, you're saying Yngwie Malmsteen is extreme metal. It's as melodic and non-extreme as it gets.

It's extremely non-extreme?

In all seriousness though I do think that being underground has little to do with being extreme metal. The only connection I can think of is that non-extreme metal has better chances getting into mainstream (as in not being underground any longer) than extreme metal (due to having more wide-spread appeal). However I do not think this connection is strong enough to state that extreme metal = underground.

Neoclassical extreme metal ... LOL Elend, Dargaard extreme.... I think true extreme fans will insult those bands

underground can be not only metal but folk music(well more neo folk), blues, country , jazz , mainstream jazz as what so ever light and smooth, is not same as Cecil Taylor, many say they likes Jazz , but same time cant stand such kind, same goes blues, even hip hop can be underground, so underground is basically not popular and also unknown for ppl who comes from work and plays whit children and use PC to pay bills and look for cheep car ....
metal well any genre can be underground Iron Maiden mainstream , Wolfs Bane underground ....

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.08.2014 at 12:37

Written by Ganondox on 04.08.2014 at 06:26

... even some extreme metal subgenres, like neoclassical metal.

How the bleep is neoclassical metal extreme metal?
So, you're saying Yngwie Malmsteen is extreme metal. It's as melodic and non-extreme as it gets.

You parsed the sentence incorrectly. "For example, while power metal has mainstream popularity in europe, it's considered to be underground in the US, and many other metal subgenres are much more underground than power metal, even some extreme metal subgenres, like neoclassical metal." Delete the clause mentioning extreme metal, and you will see what I was saying.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 04.08.2014 at 06:41

OP needs a dictionary.

The answer is no.

There are popular extreme metal bands. There are underground pop artists. Extremity and popularity are in no way mutually exclusive.

/pointless thread

OP has a dictionary, and extreme metal isn't in it, so I used the description on wikipedia (rather I use urban dictionary?), where extreme metal implies it being underground. Obviously underground music doesn't only include extreme metal, and I made that quite clear from my post, I was talking only in regards to metal subgenres. I specifically said many extreme metal bands are popular as well.

Written by Ganondox on 04.08.2014 at 21:13

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.08.2014 at 12:37

Written by Ganondox on 04.08.2014 at 06:26

... even some extreme metal subgenres, like neoclassical metal.

How the bleep is neoclassical metal extreme metal?
So, you're saying Yngwie Malmsteen is extreme metal. It's as melodic and non-extreme as it gets.

You parsed the sentence incorrectly. "For example, while power metal has mainstream popularity in europe, it's considered to be underground in the US, and many other metal subgenres are much more underground than power metal, even some extreme metal subgenres, like neoclassical metal." Delete the clause mentioning extreme metal, and you will see what I was saying.

The way you formed that sentence implies that neoclassical metal is an extreme metal. You should have moved the 'like neoclassical metal' phrase forward for it not to be considered part of extreme metal, in your sentence.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.08.2014 at 21:16

The way you formed that sentence implies that neoclassical metal is an extreme metal. You should have moved the 'like neoclassical metal' phrase forward for it not to be considered part of extreme metal, in your sentence.

Yeah the phrasing was awkward, and I should have done that, but I assumed being would be able to use the context of the sentence to arrive at the only interpretation which actually makes any sense. Sorry, should have made that more clear.

Written by Charly546 on 04.08.2014 at 13:04


In all seriousness though I do think that being underground has little to do with being extreme metal. The only connection I can think of is that non-extreme metal has better chances getting into mainstream (as in not being underground any longer) than extreme metal (due to having more wide-spread appeal). However I do not think this connection is strong enough to state that extreme metal = underground.

I agree with those sentiments, I'm only asking this question because I've seen some people use them interchangeably.

Written by Ganondox on 04.08.2014 at 21:13
OP has a dictionary, and extreme metal isn't in it, so I used the description on wikipedia (rather I use urban dictionary?), where extreme metal implies it being underground. Obviously underground music doesn't only include extreme metal, and I made that quite clear from my post, I was talking only in regards to metal subgenres. I specifically said many extreme metal bands are popular as well.

I fail to see the point in creating this thread then, as you already answered your own question. It's an exercise in repetition and elaboration, if anything.

Extreme does not imply underground, even though the two often go hand-in-hand. When thrash metal was arguably the most extreme form of music around, The Big Four achieved mainstream success. The same holds true of Cannibal Corpse, a far more extreme metal band. Then you look at melodic forms of metal - heavy metal, power metal, gothic metal, etc. - all of which feature a plethora of underground bands.

^Well, here in Brazil every random citizen you ask on the street has heard of Sepultura, be him a metal fan or not =P

Once again deadone, I'm going to disagree based on anecdotal evidence. Maybe Australia, or at least where you live in Australia, is like the least "metal" place to live, but every city I've ever lived in here in Canada has had a very healthy metal market - from teenagers to people in their 50s. If I namedrop Slayer or Cannibal Corpse, I would bet at least 6 out of 10 people would at least have heard of them. If I limit my questioning to those closer to my own age, I can guarantee that percentage increases.

I've spent at least 6 months in 9 of Canada's 10 provinces, worked at a book store, a grocery store, and a homeless shelter, I've lived on a military base, and I've interacted on a fairly steady basis with just about every demographic there is (aside from the likes of lawyers and doctors). The metal culture here, while perhaps not as ingrained as the United Kingdom or the Scandinavian countries, stretches across the country and across quite a few demographics. Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal are all metal meccas in Canada - some of which draw in crowds of close to 100,000 people for festivals. Again, all of my evidence, much like your own, is anecdotal. I've never been to Australia, but based on the picture you paint, it would seem an extreme minority listen to metal, and those who do are hardly a step up from being a Neanderthal. Hopefully some of the other Canadians on this site can vouch for what I'm saying.

You assume a lot in your post about Canadian metal culture for somebody who has evidently never spent any significant amount of time in this country, whereas I have traveled through it extensively over the past 9 years and experienced first-hand quite the opposite of what you describe regarding Australia.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 05.08.2014 at 05:46

I've spent at least 6 months in 9 of Canada's 10 provinces, worked at a book store, a grocery store, and a homeless shelter, I've lived on a military base, and I've interacted on a fairly steady basis with just about every demographic there is (aside from the likes of lawyers and doctors). The metal culture here, while perhaps not as ingrained as the United Kingdom or the Scandinavian countries, stretches across the country and across quite a few demographics. Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal are all metal meccas in Canada - some of which draw in crowds of close to 100,000 people for festivals. Again, all of my evidence, much like your own, is anecdotal. I've never been to Australia, but based on the picture you paint, it would seem an extreme minority listen to metal, and those who do are hardly a step up from being a Neanderthal. Hopefully some of the other Canadians on this site can vouch for what I'm saying.

You assume a lot in your post about Canadian metal culture for somebody who has evidently never spent any significant amount of time in this country, whereas I have traveled through it extensively over the past 9 years and experienced first-hand quite the opposite of what you describe regarding Australia.

I can certainly vouch for what you're saying as a fellow Canadian on the East Coast. The culture here in Atlantic Canada is small but very dedicated and prominent. I have no doubt that if I were to ask people about the same bands you proposed, at least 6/10 would know about them. This is not a bias predicated on the fact I'm a metalhead. It's just a product of Google. Extreme music is inescapable and it's here to stay.

I can't make any claims regarding the numbers of people who are relatively informed about metal in Australia, but here's my two cents: the Australia Council for the Arts gave a composition grant to Austalian death metal band Ouroboros and prog band Ne Obliviscaris, recognizing the musicianship and virtuosity associated with those groups. It's pretty obvious that there's an effort to shift the pre-existing stigmas associated with the metal culture and turn it into more of a cultural art form, and I'd be very surprised if the government's decision to sign these grants was done out of the will of a nation entirely uninterested in metal (at least in the manner you suggest).

Written by deadone on 05.08.2014 at 06:00
So given 21 million Canadians (60%) are metal fans or know about it, Metal bands should be dominating the charts. But they're not, are they? ( http://www.letssingit.com/charts/canada-albums)

You're counting demographics I didn't mention - namely, the 0 - 17 crowd and the 60+ crowd.

Also, in this day and age, album sales aren't exactly the most reliable statistic to base your assumptions on. And maybe use a more credible source like, I dunno, the Billboard charts? http://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200. Obviously not a lot of metal there, but then again that wasn't exactly the point I was trying to make. The point was that the majority of people between the ages of 18 - 59 would respond "yes" to being asked if they have heard of either Slayer or Cannibal Corpse. And the only reason that I estimated it'd be 6 out of 10 instead of 7 is because once you pass that 40-year-old mark some of the older guys might not be as familiar with the likes of extreme metal bands. Still, the metal culture in Canada is strong enough for me to believe in my estimations.

Written by deadone on 05.08.2014 at 06:00

Written by Troy Killjoy on 05.08.2014 at 05:46


You assume a lot in your post about Canadian metal culture

Not at all. I just made assumptions about overall society given we all know (or should know) humans are far more diverse and have a massive diversity of interests and that heavy metal music is but a mere and rather small grain of sand on a beach in terms of the variety of experiences.

Assuming 60% of the entire country of over 35 million people are into metal or are aware of bands that generally get no mainstream exposure appears ridiculous in such a environment, unless Canadians are extremely limited in their interests.

So given 21 million Canadians (60%) are metal fans or know about it, Metal bands should be dominating the charts. But they're not, are they? ( http://www.letssingit.com/charts/canada-albums)

Humans are diverse and sometimes our interests are diverse, but I'm not convinced our tastes in music are really that different statistically from other people (at least in an urban setting). I know a fair amount of people that like any particular genre of music (ie. I have jazz friends, classical friends, pop friends, country friends, electronic friends, metal friends, people that don't like music at all even). The variety of experiences with music people have may seem complicated when you first look at it, but on the ensemble level a few average patterns can prevail. (It's the same kind of reasoning that governs thermodynamics- in a complex body of particles with momentum, angular momentum and position, you don't need to think of every combination of these parameters to understand what's going on, since average quantities like internal energy and temperature are all we can really observe) I think it's safe to say I have an average knowledge of the big names in country music and rap music, for example, simply because of my experience in an urban environment; it would be foolish not to entitle any other fan of music the same kind of average awareness of metal music.

And again, it's not ridiculous for 60% of the country, at least in an urban setting, to have some familiarity with the big names of metal. We can Google and get awareness of any kind of music that isn't mainstream. There are prominent documentaries and TV cartoons about metal, even if it can be kind of ridiculous; video games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band exposed a large percentage of Canadians to new hard rock music and even led people to more metal that was unconventional. Most people know about Mayhem and other black metal bands from their infamous acts, etc. All in all, your argument doesn't really have water to it.

Also, no one is buying music anymore and it's safe to say the charts don't really have a correlation with the average tastes of Canada these days.

Written by deadone on 05.08.2014 at 05:04

Written by Troy Killjoy on 05.08.2014 at 04:45

- even my parents don't know Slayer or Sepultura despite 2/3 of their kids listening to this stuff - they knew Metallica and that was it and they were a bunch of ).

I thought you were Croatian?

Written by deadone on 05.08.2014 at 06:57
All you and Troy are going from is your own perspective as younger metalheads which is at best an extremely limited perspective.

Is that really where this conversation is going? "All you're going from is your own perspective as some 40-year-old man living in Australia."

PS - on a separate note, watch the racial slurs.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one then.

Interesting read so far. Way to go MS for not killing a thread

Written by M C Vice on 05.08.2014 at 06:38


I thought you were Croatian?

your an aussie, is your perception the same as deadones for the aussie part ?

Written by deadone on 05.08.2014 at 04:14


The perspective only changes if you go outside of metal, in which case many people haven't heard of Slayer or Anthrax, let alone Cannibal Corpse. That is the case of a completely different market.

I've met plenty of people who have never heard of Metallica, especially those aged 40+.

Fact: Metallica has more likes on Facebook than Star Wars (37 million to 12 million). Three times as many in fact. Slayer has about half as many likes as Star Wars. None of these things are popular though because it doesn't come close to the the half-billion Facebook users there are. In fact according to your own methods "it goes to show you no-one really knows or likes heavy metal Star Wars," (your own quote):

Quote:
A lot more to the world than just metal or even music. In fact given the world's largest metal band Metallica has a mere 37 million Facebook likes out of a total human population of 7 billion (0.54% of the human population, it goes to show you no-one really knows or likes heavy metal. Even looking at Facebook, it's only 5% of the total Facebook users (680 million), despite Facebook and metal both being something embraced heavily by young, middle class people who can afford electricity, computers and internet.

What's even funnier is that The Empire Strikes Back, regarded as the best film in the franchise, has only 277,000 likes. If a band on Facebook had that many likes you would no doubt consider it "underground" by virtue of how far from Metallica's 37 million.

Most people in the world probably haven't heard of the Godfather, Cheryl Cole, Britney Spears, Call of Duty, Breaking Bad, and so on. Stop living the world through numbers, majorities and statistics and experience it first hand. If you do want to carry on living on the internet then Metallica is as popular, or more so, than any of these artists and institutions mentioned, which means in fact a metal band has gained more awareness than the biggest film franchise, or one of the biggest pop stars ever known (you have no right to refute this given how often you use Facebook stats as part of your arguments).

Popular doesn't mean that most people in the world have heard it. Metal is a cultural phenomenon whether or not you want to see it, even if most of the world doesn't know what it is.

Quote:
And my real life associations for the last 8 years have been purely non-metal and as mainstream as it comes.

Given your bizarre and backwards views you have about "undergrounders" and extreme metalheads and generally a lot of the other nonsense you spout about your internet-gleaned understanding of metallers as you struggle to understand the world through statistics and record sales, this does not surprise me

Quote:

Written by deadone on 05.08.2014 at 06:49

Written by M C Vice on 05.08.2014 at 06:38

I thought you were Croatian?

Croats are aren't they?

Never mind, I didn't know Croatia was next to the Meddeterrainean (help! can't spell).

Written by Guest on 05.08.2014 at 07:58

your an aussie, is your perception the same as deadones for the aussie part ?

I'm not very social, so I'm probably not the best one to ask. I only know (I think) 4 people who listen to any metal, but then I don't go around asking people what they listen to. I'd guess its somewhere between what deadone is saying and what Troy is saying. (How's that for a vague answer)

Written by Guest on 05.08.2014 at 10:04


Fact: Metallica has more likes on Facebook than Star Wars (37 million to 12 million). Three times as many in fact.
Most people in the world probably haven't heard of the Godfather, Cheryl Cole, Britney Spears, Call of Duty, Breaking Bad, and so on.

I blame the prequel films and the Young Jedi Knights novels.
Who's Cheryl Cole?

Written by M C Vice on 05.08.2014 at 11:04

Who's Cheryl Cole?

Exactly! In the UK she probably appears in the papers and magazines more than anyone else, and in the US she appeared as a judge on X-Factor, or America's Got Talent, or some God-awful, yet undeniably popular and mainstream, TV show.

Doesn't mean everyone will know her though. She's stupidly hot, that's the only thing that matters to me.

Written by deadone on 05.08.2014 at 06:57


All you and Troy are going from is your own perspective as younger metalheads which is at best an extremely limited perspective.

I am a 45+ (so compared to me your perspective is extremely limited since I have been on the face of this earth a lot longer that you ) person who functions totally normally in every day life and I have to agree with Troy and the Canadian. Even though metal isn't a popular genre of music as such I am sure that 60% or so of the general population of The Netherlands have heard of bands such as Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax, Megadeth, Iron Maiden and even Cannibal Corpse

Written by Troy Killjoy on 05.08.2014 at 07:02

Written by deadone on 05.08.2014 at 06:57
All you and Troy are going from is your own perspective as younger metalheads which is at best an extremely limited perspective.

Is that really where this conversation is going? "All you're going from is your own perspective as some 40-year-old man living in Australia."

deadone is in his Thirties

Written by Guest on 05.08.2014 at 11:25

Written by M C Vice on 05.08.2014 at 11:04

Who's Cheryl Cole?

Exactly! In the UK she probably appears in the papers and magazines more than anyone else, and in the US she appeared as a judge on X-Factor, or America's Got Talent, or some God-awful, yet undeniably popular and mainstream, TV show.

Doesn't mean everyone will know her though. She's stupidly hot, that's the only thing that matters to me.

And here in The Netherlands she is only known to people that follow EPL football as the (ex?)-wife of Ashley Cole.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 05.08.2014 at 13:04

And here in The Netherlands she is only known to people that follow EPL football as the (ex?)-wife of Ashley Cole.

Yep, makes sense. I mostly know her from that time she beat a woman up in some club toilets.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 05.08.2014 at 13:01

deadone is in his Thirties

34 if I remember. Barely older than me.

I already said this. But. I still think that the huge problem here is that dead one, just like in every other thread, always uses what he saw through his most likely biased eyes - since he lives in a godforsaken place - as a starting point for a theory that tries to embrace everyone and everything into it. You add to that a couple links that happen to go your way, and that's it. But when people try to come up with counter-examples just to offer a different perspective, they get shot down.

Despite that, I am still going to give my two cents on this. I can testify just like everybody else, as a person who spent her life split between two countries and had to relocate to different cities in those two countries, that metal is a lot less obscure than you try to make it seem. You guys are using Metallica as a example, and it turns out that Metallica is extremely popular in Morocco. AC/DC and Iron Maiden are close, but Metallica is really just... normal here. Moroccans are fond of guitars - because of the traditional ud etc - and when kids start learning that instrument, you know they're going to be taught how to play Nothing Else Matters and The Unforgiven. It even became a stereotype here.

This is off topic.

Written by Ilham on 05.08.2014 at 14:28

But when people try to come up with counter-examples just to offer a different perspective, they get shot down.

Or more accurately we get accused of ganging up on him and a hissy will ensue. And then he'll later go on to complain in another thread that apparently only "underground" people's opinions are respected, and then later he'll complain that no one wants to discuss on forums these days. Rinse repeat.

Yeah, off-topic. Anyway.