There doesn't seem to be a thread dedicated specifically to evolution, this wonderful way of explaining us and our surroundings. So I created one for intelligent discussion on evolution, creationism and their alleged clash in the USA. Also, you are allowed to freely bash creationism as long as you also include some intelligently designed sentences regarding evolution in your post. I mean, creationists' daily job is trampling on the theory of evolution without bothering to make sense - this way we can fight back and be better at the same time.


Okay, so what do we have? Evolution is at present (and, hopefully, in the future) THE way of seeing our world. It's the only one that has some scientific credibility tagged to it. These days, religions are rightfully required to adjust themselves to science, not the opposite; world-views that blatantly deny evolution, like intelligent design, are running out on their lease of life. I am not a qualified statistician or a seer, I cannot tell whether the entirety of religion is in its death throes, but creationism does seem to hint at something like that. Christianity had been slowly adapting itself to science when that heap of nonsense popped up in the twentieth century.

Now I am not trying to bash anyone just because they believe God created Heaven and Earth, but please look at the facts - the Theory of Evolution, despite its loose ends and controversies, is a working and proven theory. You should get used to it, or it's your loss. I know a lot of scientists are both religious and still they manage to accept evolution. In fact, despite what creationists would have us believe, there is no controversy in the scientific community regarding the evolution vs creation dispute. None at all - the scientists are unanimously in support of what Darwin started. What is happening in America is a bunch of overly religious people have found themselves in a situation where they can legally present their views as hard science and teach it in schools as such.

I guess me, being an European, shouldn't be overly concerned about all that - it'll never happen here. Yet if American children start getting such education, the entire world will be affected and our near future could get fucked up significantly. So I appeal to you all, especially Americans: fight against creationism (cretinism?) and for evolution. It's the only way.


Yes, I didn't actually post any scientific evidence for evolution, nor did I provide any links to sites containing that. What I also didn't do is refer to any specific creationist conspiracies and lies. The Internet is full of both of these things, look it up yourself. Start with Wikipedia, for instance. I do give a link to my current favorite song, "Creation Science 101" by Roy Zimmerman. Enjoy this, and common sense!

Oh, and my special greetings go to any Young Earth Creationists, should there be any here (hopefully and probably not). A world that's only a few thousand years old - that's a bloody inspiring idea. It inspires me to laugh at said people's stupidity. Scraping up a few claims that seem scientific or old controversies already settled and presenting them to wider audiences in hopes that they won't look up the topic to some elementary depth (like a primary school biology/geology book) and discover the hoax involved is a clever, albeit really, really weak thing to do.

And yet, such people exist in the 21st century. Go figure...

hahaha I love how it says "common sense" below the title and the double negative in the poll question is also amusing.

Oh, and yes, I do believe in evolution.

I believe in evolution, but I also believe in a healthy dose of creationism. I would like to specify right away that I am not a christian, but also I am not a monotheist in any way, but the concept of crreationism still runs the same. I believe a multitude of higher powers created the universe. That being said, there is no reason for me to believe that evolutionism doesn't have it's role. This is my belief, so don't persecute me, but I believe that gods, being what they are, go beyond simple human comprehension. So they inherently, could very well be the cause of evolution, over thousands of years manipulating cells and molecules to formulate the species in exactly the way they're supposed to be. Once more, I'm not looking for conflict, that's just me.

I love when people try to point out the missing link as ammo for their argument, considering the "infallible word of god" has more holes than swiss cheese. It's because they tried to stretch the disintegrating bible science written by pseudo-spiritual liars from 4000 years ago who liked to manipulate the weak tp make sense with what we have now. I mean how specific do we have to get that man came from apes. We have the skeletal remains of virtually every damn homonid figure dating back to when we were primates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_fossils
I don't see any missing links there.

I don't believe in those things, but I would rather believe in that than that God created earth.. Anyway, I am not very well with some things, they have some sence, but there are a lot of impossible and stupid explanations so.. It is little hard to me to continue this discussion because of my Enghlish, I can't translate all those words and terms so that will be all from me...

i searched google for "young earth creationists" and i found this: http://www.creationists.org/ i can see how easily brainwashed little children are by these articles.

lol who the fuck voted "i do"?

I remember debating harshly with (or rather against ) a girl named Dark Angel in MSv2 in the Evolution Vs Creationism thread. I simply don't want to start this again because IMO there's no other way but evolution: this is scientific material which has been proven and restlessly bashed because some people are so afraid to be unsignificant that they need to believe they've been created on purpose... :

Anyway have a look a this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17875540/site/newsweek/
Skip directly to the 12th and 13th questions. Frightening...

Written by -Valhalla- on 08.04.2007 at 09:44

I love when people try to point out the missing link as ammo for their argument, considering the "infallible word of god" has more holes than swiss cheese. It's because they tried to stretch the disintegrating bible science written by pseudo-spiritual liars from 4000 years ago who liked to manipulate the weak tp make sense with what we have now. I mean how specific do we have to get that man came from apes. We have the skeletal remains of virtually every damn homonid figure dating back to when we were primates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_fossils
I don't see any missing links there.

Dude, I never asked to have you call my beliefs weak, alright. I'm not trying to justify any sort of Hidden Link, alright? I Do believe in evolution, But I also Do have spiritual Beliefs. At least I am not one of those Mundane Atheist asswholes who goes "anyone with any sense of a higher power is an idiot because they can't explain every single detail drrr....I sure are a idiot and a hypocrit because not everything is science can be explained either." All I'm saying is that I believe that the gods manipulated things to happen the way they did. That is my belief, you don't have to live with it, you don't have to like it, but please, repect it.

Written by APOHAKC on 08.04.2007 at 11:47

I don't believe in those things, but I would rather believe in that than that God created earth.. Anyway, I am not very well with some things, they have some sence, but there are a lot of impossible and stupid explanations so.. It is little hard to me to continue this discussion because of my Enghlish, I can't translate all those words and terms so that will be all from me...

Well, brother, we're in one boat...of course God did create everything...
I amn't saying that he created it in six days and that earth is few thousand years old....I simply think that these powers are so bloody huge and mighty...that these are impossible for us to understand...at least at the present moment....I think that in God's and other divine creatures' hands there are for example abilities to control time and space....to control everything here....that's why they can be everywhere every time...I believe they can move in a world which is more than 10 dimensional....for us of course Earth is 4-5 billion years old...but for us time is linear...we can only look back what has happened...and witness the present....and we can never halt time...nor accelerate it...nor anything like that....

About the common structural similarities between living organisms on Earth....the fossils etc....well....all these creatures did live here.....but for me...God did create man according to his face....well....why did God have to create every animal so very different....it was very convenient to use the basic structures.....to give every animal a similar internal structure, organs etc....and to vary the characteristics according to the environment of the specific species....
I believe that these powerful entities have designed life forms here....lots of life forms...to see how the life on Earth works....how it would work...

Yeah you see I like the way my homie Hobad put it. Gods are everywhere, they go beyond simple human comprehension and perception. The have the ability to shift time and shatter the human imagination simply by snapping their fingers. I feel that gods only take on certain forms for our sake, so we can Identify with them and what they stand for. I think that if we saw the true form of a god, our minds would shatter. So of course they can manipulate the way things happen over the course of thousands of years, it doesn't have to happen over night and it can be perfectly acceptable to biological and Scientific community. That's why while I believe in evolution, I also have a healthy belief in creationism. It's like in the Religion vs Science thread, I believe in a cross of Both.

Voted pro-evolution, as I am not a closed-minded ideologue who ignores scientific fact in service of a Bronze-Age understanding of the world.

In my town, there's a HUGE gospel music festival (http://www.agmf.com.au/) going on at the moment. Last night my friends and I were bored, so we went to check it out and engage some Christians in debate. One especially fucked up thing we were told is that "humans aren't animals, because animals aren't divinely recognised (ie. they can't talk, do things humans can)". It truly is unbelievable, the extent to which faith can blind people to obvious scientific reality.

Written by Arian Totalis on 09.04.2007 at 01:16

Written by -Valhalla- on 08.04.2007 at 09:44

I love when people try to point out the missing link as ammo for their argument, considering the "infallible word of god" has more holes than swiss cheese. It's because they tried to stretch the disintegrating bible science written by pseudo-spiritual liars from 4000 years ago who liked to manipulate the weak tp make sense with what we have now. I mean how specific do we have to get that man came from apes. We have the skeletal remains of virtually every damn homonid figure dating back to when we were primates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_fossils
I don't see any missing links there.

Dude, I never asked to have you call my beliefs weak, alright. I'm not trying to justify any sort of Hidden Link, alright? I Do believe in evolution, But I also Do have spiritual Beliefs. At least I am not one of those Mundane Atheist asswholes who goes "anyone with any sense of a higher power is an idiot because they can't explain every single detail drrr....I sure are a idiot and a hypocrit because not everything is science can be explained either." All I'm saying is that I believe that the gods manipulated things to happen the way they did. That is my belief, you don't have to live with it, you don't have to like it, but please, repect it.

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to any militant Christian idiot who would think the bible is the only way the history of the earth could happen. I respect anyone's beliefs as long as they form a sensible thesis based on thier own constructive thought and not the words of some holy book, and it doesn't blatantly dodge known fact. I don't have a problem with your views.

Written by -Valhalla- on 09.04.2007 at 18:03

Written by Arian Totalis on 09.04.2007 at 01:16

Written by -Valhalla- on 08.04.2007 at 09:44

I love when people try to point out the missing link as ammo for their argument, considering the "infallible word of god" has more holes than swiss cheese. It's because they tried to stretch the disintegrating bible science written by pseudo-spiritual liars from 4000 years ago who liked to manipulate the weak tp make sense with what we have now. I mean how specific do we have to get that man came from apes. We have the skeletal remains of virtually every damn homonid figure dating back to when we were primates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_fossils
I don't see any missing links there.

Dude, I never asked to have you call my beliefs weak, alright. I'm not trying to justify any sort of Hidden Link, alright? I Do believe in evolution, But I also Do have spiritual Beliefs. At least I am not one of those Mundane Atheist asswholes who goes "anyone with any sense of a higher power is an idiot because they can't explain every single detail drrr....I sure are a idiot and a hypocrit because not everything is science can be explained either." All I'm saying is that I believe that the gods manipulated things to happen the way they did. That is my belief, you don't have to live with it, you don't have to like it, but please, repect it.

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to any militant Christian idiot who would think the bible is the only way the history of the earth could happen. I respect anyone's beliefs as long as they form a sensible thesis based on thier own constructive thought and not the words of some holy book, and it doesn't blatantly dodge known fact. I don't have a problem with your views.

oh ok, thanks then.

I consider myself to be an openminded person...So I observe the theory of evolution because it makes the most sense...rather than IMO believing in a story handed down by word of mouth by nomads who later written it on paper. What usually happens is that people at the time had no way of explaining nature and its creation and let their imagination wander away...

But I also look at other cultural views of how the world was made and I dont exclude of the possibility evolution as created by a supreme cosmic force.

Written by Sunioj on 10.04.2007 at 23:54

I consider myself to be an openminded person...So I observe the theory of evolution because it makes the most sense...rather than IMO believing in a story handed down by word of mouth by nomads who later written it on paper. What usually happens is that people at the time had no way of explaining nature and its creation and let their imagination wander away...

But I also look at other cultural views of how the world was made and I dont exclude of the possibility evolution as created by a supreme cosmic force.

I'm with you here. I believe in evolution, but I'm not excluding some sort of supreme cosmic force to have started it all...just haven't heard of any from any religion yet that seems plausible.

Written by Götter on 08.04.2007 at 02:05

the Theory of Evolution, despite its loose ends and controversies, is a working and proven theory.

A proven theory? Isn't that an oxymoron? Either it is a theory or a fact.

So let's look at the theory of evolution for a moment...we start with nothing. There's an explosion and that produces everything...over billions and billions of years. The birds, and the trees, and the flowers, the moon, the sun, the stars, elephants, human beings, everything we got and this happens by random chance...over billions of years.

Now Charles Darwin said that in order for his theory to be true there must be millions of in between stages, transitional forms in the fossil record. If within a hundred years we don't find those transitional forms that his theory should be discarded. Well, more than 100 years has gone by and those missing links, those transitional forms, in between stages, are still missing.

Well evolution DOES EXIST whether one wants to believe in it or not.....look at human-beings thousands ov years ago and compare them to human-beings today.......is that not a form of evolution?

I'm not sure if I believe in the Darwin Theory, well.....I don't. But evolution does exist in every living creature nonetheless.

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:20

Well evolution DOES EXIST whether one wants to believe in it or not.....look at human-beings thousands ov years ago and compare them to human-beings today.......is that not a form of evolution?

I'm not sure if I believe in the Darwin Theory, well.....I don't. But evolution does exist in every living creature nonetheless.

Remember there is a difference between macro-evolution and micro-evolution.

All 7 yes's probably were meant to be no, the question for the poll is backwards and can be confusing. If it was said " Do you belive in evolution yes/no, it would make more sense. I was confused thats for sure.

I most certainly believe in evolution because I am a man of logic and reason, not of fairy tales. There are millions of pieces of evidence that prove evolution as a fact, with new evidence being found every day. Creationism has nothing but the Bible, and last time I checked, that book is not a legitimate source of scientific fact, as there is no science to be found there.

What I really like to do is make fun of creationists. Allow me to give you an example. Creationists like to set unreasonable standards for evolution. They expect that every single animal have a transitional fossil. Strange thing is, even though they have these unreasonable standards for evolution, they have no standards for a man being created out of dirt, and a woman being created out of a rib. How was he created out of dirt? How was the woman created out of the rib? To simple questions like that, the creationists do not respond.

Written by Dane Train on 29.11.2007 at 01:29

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:20

Well evolution DOES EXIST whether one wants to believe in it or not.....look at human-beings thousands ov years ago and compare them to human-beings today.......is that not a form of evolution?

I'm not sure if I believe in the Darwin Theory, well.....I don't. But evolution does exist in every living creature nonetheless.

Remember there is a difference between macro-evolution and micro-evolution.

oh, well then I only believe in micro-evolution then.

a serious question, if the Darwin Theory is true, then why are there STILL monkies left

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:43

I most certainly believe in evolution because I am a man of logic and reason, not of fairy tales. There are millions of pieces of evidence that prove evolution as a fact, with new evidence being found every day. Creationism has nothing but the Bible, and last time I checked, that book is not a legitimate source of scientific fact, as there is no science to be found there.

Can you provide me with evidence of one animal evolving into another? I have looked all over for an animal evolving into another, and I just can't seem to find it.

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:47

oh, well then I only believe in micro-evolution then.

a serious question, if the Darwin Theory is true, then why are there STILL monkies left

That was something I always wondered. Did half the monkeys decide to stay monkeys?

Written by Dane Train on 29.11.2007 at 01:47

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:43

I most certainly believe in evolution because I am a man of logic and reason, not of fairy tales. There are millions of pieces of evidence that prove evolution as a fact, with new evidence being found every day. Creationism has nothing but the Bible, and last time I checked, that book is not a legitimate source of scientific fact, as there is no science to be found there.

Can you provide me with evidence of one animal evolving into another? I have looked all over for an animal evolving into another, and I just can't seem to find it.

The best example I can provide is us. We are transitional animals between our parents and our children. Also, our children are transitional animals between us and our grandchildren. Over thousands of generations, they might look completely different than humans today.

Written by Dane Train on 29.11.2007 at 01:47

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:47

oh, well then I only believe in micro-evolution then.

a serious question, if the Darwin Theory is true, then why are there STILL monkies left

That was something I always wondered. Did half the monkeys decide to stay monkeys?

Actually, that simply means we have a common ancestor. In one area, the monkey might stay the same, while in another area, a monkey might evolve into a higher creature.

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:57

Actually, that simply means we have a common ancestor. In one area, the monkey might stay the same, while in another area, a monkey might evolve into a higher creature.

Can you provide me with some evidence for this claim?

Written by Dane Train on 29.11.2007 at 01:58

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:57

Actually, that simply means we have a common ancestor. In one area, the monkey might stay the same, while in another area, a monkey might evolve into a higher creature.

Can you provide me with some evidence for this claim?

Ta-da (proof found in 1 second thanks to the internets)

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 02:03

Ta-da (proof found in 1 second thanks to the internets)

Right, but that still is not really evidence.

I mean let me just quote the very beginning on the page.

"A group of organisms is said to have common descent if they have a common ancestor. In modern biology, it is generally accepted that all living organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.

A theory of universal common descent based on evolutionary principles was proposed by Charles Darwin in his book On the Origin of Species (1859), and later in The Descent of Man (1871). "

So we have a general belief based upon a theory. Now I am not refuting that evidence, but it still seems really shaking. Now to quote myself...

Written by Dane Train on 29.11.2007 at 00:55

Now Charles Darwin said that in order for his theory to be true there must be millions of in between stages, transitional forms in the fossil record. If within a hundred years we don't find those transitional forms that his theory should be discarded. Well, more than 100 years has gone by and those missing links, those transitional forms, in between stages, are still missing.

Can you please show me a fossil of such organisms, or even better, a living organism that is evolving into something else.

Written by Dane Train on 29.11.2007 at 02:12

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 02:03

Ta-da (proof found in 1 second thanks to the internets)

Right, but that still is not really evidence.

I mean let me just quote the very beginning on the page.

"A group of organisms is said to have common descent if they have a common ancestor. In modern biology, it is generally accepted that all living organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.

A theory of universal common descent based on evolutionary principles was proposed by Charles Darwin in his book On the Origin of Species (1859), and later in The Descent of Man (1871). "

So we have a general belief based upon a theory. Now I am not refuting that evidence, but it still seems really shaking. Now to quote myself...

Written by Dane Train on 29.11.2007 at 00:55

Now Charles Darwin said that in order for his theory to be true there must be millions of in between stages, transitional forms in the fossil record. If within a hundred years we don't find those transitional forms that his theory should be discarded. Well, more than 100 years has gone by and those missing links, those transitional forms, in between stages, are still missing.

Can you please show me a fossil of such organisms, or even better, a living organism that is evolving into something else.

The best example of a transitional animal I can show is Archaeopteryx (see below).

This is a transitional fossil between a dinosaur and a bird. It has both reptilian and bird-like characteristics.

In fact, a living transitional animal would be the amphibian, or the frog. They look like a reptile, but they also have characteristics of the fish. They have webbed toes that possibly used to be fins, and they spend most of their time in the water. In fact, I could have just shown this without all of that explaining.

Written by Dane Train on 29.11.2007 at 01:47

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:43

I most certainly believe in evolution because I am a man of logic and reason, not of fairy tales. There are millions of pieces of evidence that prove evolution as a fact, with new evidence being found every day. Creationism has nothing but the Bible, and last time I checked, that book is not a legitimate source of scientific fact, as there is no science to be found there.

Can you provide me with evidence of one animal evolving into another? I have looked all over for an animal evolving into another, and I just can't seem to find it.

Written by Guest on 29.11.2007 at 01:47

oh, well then I only believe in micro-evolution then.

a serious question, if the Darwin Theory is true, then why are there STILL monkies left

That was something I always wondered. Did half the monkeys decide to stay monkeys?

No, they just kept surviving like every other animal that hasn't died out.