Evolution (and some Creationism, too)
Original post
Posted by Götter, 08.04.2007 - 02:05
Okay, so what do we have? Evolution is at present (and, hopefully, in the future) THE way of seeing our world. It's the only one that has some scientific credibility tagged to it. These days, religions are rightfully required to adjust themselves to science, not the opposite; world-views that blatantly deny evolution, like intelligent design, are running out on their lease of life. I am not a qualified statistician or a seer, I cannot tell whether the entirety of religion is in its death throes, but creationism does seem to hint at something like that. Christianity had been slowly adapting itself to science when that heap of nonsense popped up in the twentieth century.
Now I am not trying to bash anyone just because they believe God created Heaven and Earth, but please look at the facts - the Theory of Evolution, despite its loose ends and controversies, is a working and proven theory. You should get used to it, or it's your loss. I know a lot of scientists are both religious and still they manage to accept evolution. In fact, despite what creationists would have us believe, there is no controversy in the scientific community regarding the evolution vs creation dispute. None at all - the scientists are unanimously in support of what Darwin started. What is happening in America is a bunch of overly religious people have found themselves in a situation where they can legally present their views as hard science and teach it in schools as such.
I guess me, being an European, shouldn't be overly concerned about all that - it'll never happen here. Yet if American children start getting such education, the entire world will be affected and our near future could get fucked up significantly. So I appeal to you all, especially Americans: fight against creationism (cretinism?) and for evolution. It's the only way.
Yes, I didn't actually post any scientific evidence for evolution, nor did I provide any links to sites containing that. What I also didn't do is refer to any specific creationist conspiracies and lies. The Internet is full of both of these things, look it up yourself. Start with Wikipedia, for instance. I do give a link to my current favorite song, "Creation Science 101" by Roy Zimmerman. Enjoy this, and common sense!
Poll
You don't disbelieve evolution, do you?
Nope.
175
I actually do for some weird reason.
39
Total votes: 214
| TheBigRossowski Posts: 1355 From: Germany  |
Written by Ernis on 29.01.2011 at 23:01 Why should he have mentioned evolution or dinosaurs? He wasn't God... he didn't know those things in his day. He was a man who knew religion all to well, who understood Judaism. It's actually kind of disgusting that everyone thinks this is admirable. "Sure, it's great that he died for our sins!". And on the historical Jesus, we can only know so little about him anyways (what his message was, what his goal was). "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division." Luke 12:51 ""Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34 People rising from the dead is incompatible with evolution. There are other ways of explaining Jesus' miracles.
---- That rug really tied the room together, did it not? 
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| Dane Train Beers & Kilts Posts: 8902 From: USA  |
Written by TheBigRossowski on 30.01.2011 at 15:17 Sweet! You took Scripture out of context! Way to stick it to those Christians!
---- (space for rent)
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| ErnilEnNaur Account deleted |
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| TheBigRossowski Posts: 1355 From: Germany |
Written by Guest on 31.01.2011 at 14:22 Looks like we'd have to take this to the Christianity thread. That whole paragraph is like that... Jesus even abandoned his entire family for his "mission". And to state "Jesus knew..." is wrong. Slow your role, we can't historically "know" what Jesus knew or what he was thinking. He was an apocalyptic prophet who believed in the end of times according to most scholars (based on historical accounts of what he said). So this makes sense. And seeing as how that paragraph is in Matthew and Luke, there was probably a source for it (such as Q). I don't have to "stick it to anybody", I call it how it is. And it appears that Jesus wasn't too worried with family values. Here's a book about the New Testament, you guys should get a copy: http://www.amazon.com/Brief-Introduction-New-Testament/dp/0199740313/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296492101&sr=8-1
---- That rug really tied the room together, did it not?
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| TheBigRossowski Posts: 1355 From: Germany |
Written by Guest on 31.01.2011 at 19:49 No, I indeed enjoy the book for it's historical contents. I still read it today to learn a bit about this historical context of the Jews in their time. How old were his brothers? I haven't found anything yet, so maybe they were 14 or so, who knows. Besides, we don't know what Jesus did up until he was in his late 20s, so maybe he abandoned his family before that. Jesus in India? lol And yeah, there are SEVEN different statements Jesus supposedly said when dying on the cross. I'm pretty sure you can't be certain at all, that when he was hanging, he said "yo, brother, take care of mom, alright, because...well, I'm kinda gettin' crucified here."
---- That rug really tied the room together, did it not?
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| TheBigRossowski Posts: 1355 From: Germany |
Written by Guest on 31.01.2011 at 21:51 I do my best  The India thing is also something quite new to me. I think it's something people used to fill in the gaps from that missing time period. I'd like to know when those texts were written claiming that he was in India. If they were written in the 1st Century CE, there might be something to them, otherwise, forget about it. Anyways, I'm mega-tired of Jesus talk, I'm sure he was all-in-all, a decent Dude for his day and age. It just gets on my nerves when people start to talk about morals and stuff and hang Jesus and the Bible in your face. (didn't happen here, but I just had to think about it). Evolution is cool beans 
---- That rug really tied the room together, did it not?
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| Ernis 狼獾 Posts: 6804 From: New Zealand  |
Written by TheBigRossowski on 31.01.2011 at 21:02 Well... bro John did take care of mom afterwords. They lived in Ephesus later... You can even visit the little house there... As if you'd give a shite about that anyway lolzz...
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| TheBigRossowski Posts: 1355 From: Germany |
Written by Ernis on 31.01.2011 at 22:03 Sure he did.
---- That rug really tied the room together, did it not?
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| Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck Posts: 40071 From: The Netherlands  |
Mmm a little house still standing after 1000s of years? Find that extremely hard to belive  unless it was a hole in a rock.
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.) 05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996 
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| IronAngel Posts: 4872 From: Finland  |
ID theories and some creatonist theories can actually be reasonable and logically consistent every now and then. It's just that most of the time, the real questions are confused with politics and religious questions. Creationism (and ID, as a specific subtye) can be perfectly consistent with evolution, because it simply claims that the world has a rational design and thus probably a designer. Of course, this claim has its problems (anthropocentrism, for one), too. But the real reason why creationism is not accepted as science is that it's not an economical scientific theory. It makes unnecessary assumptions it can't test, and its power of explanation is limited (or rather, unlimited and therefore useless). But there's no clear rules in science and other academic disciplines. Their borders are flexible and change over time, and creationist arguments may have been perfectly scientific at some point (and may be in the future, too). And even now, the supposed criteria of science aren't perfectly inclusive of all science and exclusive of all pseudo-science. Demarcation is an organic process, so we should be careful resting any argument solely on today's understanding of good scientific practice. I'm not convinced by creationist arguments, but I do think they tend to be dismissed too hastily because they're confused with superstition, religious conservatism and politics.
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| Dane Train Beers & Kilts Posts: 8902 From: USA |
Written by TheBigRossowski on 31.01.2011 at 18:43 Please, lead the way.
---- (space for rent)
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| Ghostdancer Posts: 196 From: USA  |
Goddamnit. I'm adjusting to new glasses and my attention was divided...so I misread the post and voted the opposite of what I believe. Yes, I think the theory of evolution is correct. I can't even believe people still argue about it. As I eluded to in another post, I was subjected to evangelical Christianity for the first 17 years of my life and they would not even consider it. They considered modern science to be a tool of Satan, yet drove automobiles, watched television and listened to their radios (and probably went on to use computers). They taught the congregation that the earth was only 5000 years old and a lot of them thought the skeletal remains of long extinct dinosaurs, megafauna and earlier species of humans were planted in the earth by demons so that the faithful would stray from God. Of course, they also think Jesus is going to fly back to Earth on clouds, resurrect the dead and have the righteous dead and righteous living join him in the air so they can fly back to Heaven to escape the Antichrist. I'm really glad I got away from that shit. Metal truly was my savior from their savior.
---- "Bullshit! You didn't convince me!"
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| Yasmine Posts: 1485 From: USA  |
Written by Ghostdancer on 14.05.2011 at 04:07 Sorry to hear that, my house was divided, agnostic mom, pentecostal step father. I feel you, it's not even a good story, Poetic Edda, or the Odyssey anyone? lol As for confusing creationism and superstition, there is no confusion there, they are rightly compared because the mechanics of Christianity contain superstition, sin, talking animals, earth on pillars, Hell, etc.
---- "Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern "Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
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| Ghostdancer Posts: 196 From: USA |
Written by Yasmine on 14.05.2011 at 05:14 The word I should have used was "alluded" not "eluded." I should not have been posting yesterday! lol An Agnostic and a Pentecostal? Damn. That kind of division had to cause all kinds of problems. My parents at least came from roughly similar backgrounds to one another...my mother was the daughter of a Missionary Baptist preacher and my dad's family was Assembly of God. They ended up going Southern Baptist. Eventually their abilities to think for themselves kicked in and they permanently "strayed from the fold." But that happened just before I turned 18. My younger brother was always a true Agnostic. At four years of age he didn't even buy into Santa Clause. lol I posted a little bit about an uncle of mine in the discrimination thread...he was what I would call a renegade Pentecostal. He didn't believe in flying back to Heaven with Jesus to escape the Antichrist. lol He believed Christians would stay on Earth and he had plans to kill the Mormons and take the food they saved for "The Great Tribulation." Real Christian love there. lol What a jackass. I think Creationism is based purely on superstition and their "theories" are postulated only to support their religious beliefs. There is no objective analysis and there are many untestable elements. That is the hallmark of pseudoscience...just like the Nazis used the "science" of eugenics to prove the superiority of certain "races" over others...Creationism is the "science" used (at least in the US) by the Christians to prove that Christianity is true. Come on...the Earth is only 5000 years old? Humans and dinosaurs existed at the same time and the only reason dinosaurs are extinct is because of the Great Flood? And earlier hominids that existed are not related at all to modern humans and apes? I suppose they were killed in the Great Flood too. lol I mean, do they expect anyone other than their brainwashed flocks to really buy this crap? All species alive today are the products of evolution and we are all still evolving.
---- "Bullshit! You didn't convince me!"
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| Yasmine Posts: 1485 From: USA |
I completely agree with you, my step dad blames my mom for my brother and I being atheists and for my being a trans. And I loooooooove asking......"During the flood, where did the termites and fresh water fish go?" Oh and "explain self reproducing RNA and Drug resistant disease."
---- "Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern "Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
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| theFIST Posts: 1061 From: Austria  |
Quote:Quote:Written by TheBigRossowski on 01.10.2010 at 21:15 flat is not quite the right word to describe a 3 dimensional space also i"m wondering why space can drift apart. is there space coming to existence in between (with digital space it would be new space dots coming into existence between already existing ones)? and if yes, is thereany by product of new space, maybe a kind of antispace?
---- http://metalstormmusicianscorner.bandcamp.com Written by Warman on 07.11.2007 at 22:39
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| Ghostdancer Posts: 196 From: USA |
Written by Yasmine on 15.05.2011 at 01:08 And let me guess...no real answer to the questions. At 6 years of age I asked a pastor why we didn't turn to mud in the bathtub if we were formed from the dust of the ground. He said God turned us into living dust which never turns to mud. And I remember thinking he was lying. lol Today I'm waiting for The Rapture. lol
---- "Bullshit! You didn't convince me!"
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| Yasmine Posts: 1485 From: USA |
Written by Ghostdancer on 21.05.2011 at 22:05 lol we're playing the rapture thing up here too. lol Of course there's never any answer, or the answer is fallacious and they get angry when you let them know it's fallacious.
---- "Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern "Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
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| Ernis 狼獾 Posts: 6804 From: New Zealand |
Written by Ghostdancer on 21.05.2011 at 22:05 Well but our bodies are indeed made up from the same atoms that are in earth... and when we leave those bodies, then the bodies become one with the earth again and the atoms circulate onwards... literally... we turn to dust... No rapture here... as Christ said that He Himself doesn't have any idea either about when the time comes... only Father does... and He won't tell it... It's supposed to happen when there is nobody expecting it... That's why predicting it is nonsensical. But I know US has lots of weird sects...
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| therest Posts: 1135 From: Estonia  |
Written by Ernis on 21.05.2011 at 22:37 "If we praise Jesus by singing all together, it makes this whole exercise seem less bizarre than it really is if you actually stand back and examine it with some objectivity. Amen." ( - from Family Guy ... couldn't resist.  (Too bad I couldn't find a clip from youtube, the people are singing it together in church .. very funny.))
---- "It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything." - Homer Simpson "Then hold to the fading colors The grayest of life is yet to come" - Întunecatul
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| Ghostdancer Posts: 196 From: USA |
Written by Ernis on 21.05.2011 at 22:37 We are indeed all made up the same at the atomic level...but that goes for much more than dust. Cell structures in all living things are also the same. As far as after death...I actually work in a mortuary and I've had to be part of exhumations and cremations and I can see how some things end up. Bones most often do become dust. What is left after a cremation is burnt bones, not ashes. Those are ground down to an extent...I suppose if they were more finely ground they would indeed be dust. But, as to the flesh and organs...what becomes of them depends upon what was done to the body before burial. If nothing is done the person becomes food for a variety of insect larvae...mostly flies and beetles. Some of the flesh may become dust, I'm not sure. If the body is embalmed everything turns to a nasty soup-like texture. A lot of this turns to gas instead of a solid state and the smell...how can I describe it? It's worse than the normal smell of decomposition...which is disgusting beyond description. So I do suppose parts become dust but other parts can become liquid and gas. Even naturally decomposing remains can become gas partially...and cremated flesh and organs become gas too. But, back to the point...I really don't believe that God gathered up some dirt and magically made a man from it and then made a woman out of a rib taken from the man. If there was any intelligence behind any kind of creation...I believe it would have done its work through the Big Bang and evolution. I totally agree though that the oddest sects do exist in the USA. We've got every possible kind of idiot you can think of. Back in the '60s or '70s we had some group that worshipped Yahweh, Jesus, Lucifer and Satan. We've got the weirdest cults...Jim Jones may have ended up in South America but he started out here. Even without those kinds of cults, we've got "holy rollers" which are bad enough by themselves. One of my uncles went that direction...and was obsessed by the idea that he and I were chosen by God to go throughout the Western Hemisphere to save souls and suffer persecution. He thought metal was what was preventing me from understanding this. He tried to exorcise my bedroom one time because he thought demons lived there and he thought demons actually lived inside of my vinyl records. I think he actually believed Gene Simmons was a demon. lol But this uncle of mine didn't believe there would ever be a rapture either. He thought everyone would have to go through "the Great Tribulation" and his plan to survive it was to kill the Mormons and take the food and supplies they store up for this "tribulation." Some real Christian love there. lol
---- "Bullshit! You didn't convince me!"
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| Yasmine Posts: 1485 From: USA |
Yes, I've experienced a number of these, both of my Bf's parents are pentecostal, and my step father is as well. His parents don't like me one bit. As for Mormons most start telling me how I'm really a lost Jew! lol (They believe native americans are Jews.) Jim Jones, David Koresh, Tim McVeigh, all from the USA. I also do not believe in silly notions without verifible evidence. Sorry, my posts are short, not quite sober.....lol
---- "Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern "Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
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| 0rpheus Posts: 391 From: Egypt  |
Evolution doesn't contradict with the Qur'an One of Darwin's faults; he thought that species have evolved through internal factors! While it's through God's will.
---- I would prefer not to.
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| Yasmine Posts: 1485 From: USA |
Written by 0rpheus on 22.05.2011 at 03:06 Oh boy.......hope that's joke.
---- "Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern "Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
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| 0rpheus Posts: 391 From: Egypt |
Written by Yasmine on 22.05.2011 at 03:20 No jokes baby!
---- I would prefer not to.
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| Yasmine Posts: 1485 From: USA |
Written by 0rpheus on 22.05.2011 at 03:43 I'm not even gonna argue because of what we perviously said.
---- "Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern "Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
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