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The original post

Posted by on 04.09.2007 at 00:51
There was a thread about this a long time ago, but it was locked due to the people posting there being incompetent. This is a very touchy subject, I know, but I want people to at least attempt to act in a civilized matter when discussing this. Flamewars are forbidden, and anyone attempting to start a flamewar will be doused in a chemical bath. With all of this out of the way, let's discuss our views on this subject.

Personally, I have no quarrels with someone being gay, or even bisexual for that matter. To each his own. They are not the monsters that religions make them out to be. They walk, talk, and think just like anyone else, and they have a great plethora of ideas to contribute to society. They are also just as intelligent as everyone else, and they have the same concerns and worries as any other person. As a real life example, my mother's hair dresser (who is also my hair dresser, which explains why my hair is so beautiful) is gay, but he is quite the upstanding fellow, and is quite intelligent. In short, I greatly respect the gay community and I wish to see them claim the same rights as everyone else.

Discussion starts... now.



Page 24 of 24

deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6701
From: Australia

  03.07.2015 at 09:46
Written by no one on 03.07.2015 at 09:36

I watched this doco about pedophiles the other day. There was this guy who was attracted to little kids, though he had never acted on it.It was similar to if you were gay, it wasn't something he wanted, but he couldn't even commit because it would be breaking the law.

I guess what i'm saying is it could be like a sickness


Possibly (hence my comments about a disorder). Maybe some of it's a natural brain wiring issue but a lot of it also might be social and cultural (and these can affect brain wiring).
IronAngel

Posts: 4525

Age: 26
From: Finland

  03.07.2015 at 11:47
Written by no one on 03.07.2015 at 09:36

I watched this doco about pedophiles the other day. There was this guy who was attracted to little kids, though he had never acted on it.It was similar to if you were gay, it wasn't something he wanted, but he couldn't even commit because it would be breaking the law.

I guess what i'm saying is it could be like a sickness...being gay


Exactly like heterosexuality, too. We are what we are, these are empirical facts with no inherent meaning. Every human is slightly different, and there is no explicit norm which a "normal" person might perfectly embody. So when we determine sickness and disorder, we are making a social judgement call: this phenomenon is too different, this thing is harmful.

I cannot help being left-handed, and I am certainly a deviation from the average. We could very well label it a genetic disorder, but we don't because there is no reason to. When you label something a sickness or a disorder, it is not a scientific description of what the phenomenon is; it is a judgement call to say: this thing needs to be treated and prevented, this is not an acceptable state of affairs and we don't want it in our society.

So yes, Rasputin: a disorder is, by definition, normatively defined. It is plain in the word itself: dis-ORDER! What is order if not a normative state of affairs, the way things should be? If you do not understand this, and the difference between normative and descriptive in general, come back to this conversation after you've taken some English classes. Then you might go through my previous posts and actually answer any of the numerous arguments and examples directed at you, instead of repeating nonsense that has been dismissed as irrational many times over.

This means homosexuality can be a disorder if we want it to. (Just like being red-haired or schizophrenic.) But no amount of scientific research can decide that question. It is precisely political lobbying and moral argumentation that must make the case. You have to convince us that it really is harmful, undesirable and effectively treatable, and that we should take active measures to prevent it. This is not science, this is politics.
deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6701
From: Australia

  04.07.2015 at 01:21
Written by IronAngel on 03.07.2015 at 11:47



Exactly like heterosexuality, too. We are what we are, these are empirical facts with no inherent meaning. Every human is slightly different, and there is no explicit norm which a "normal" person might perfectly embody. So when we determine sickness and disorder, we are making a social judgement call: this phenomenon is too different, this thing is harmful.


Again you're loading human values into natural function. Disorders from normal biological processes exist - e.g. haemophilia where the blood doesn't clot properly or balance disorders whereby a person's state of balance doesn't function properly due to wide variety of possible defects . Sexuality could be viewed as the same especially something like transgenderism where the person feels like they're a member of the opposite sex.

Now we don't socially discriminate against someone if their blood doesn't clot properly or if they suffer from vertigo. But humans bizarrely built social values into the function of sex, right down to the point where certain religious types were advocating what positions one could have sex in. This included discrimination against those that didn't fit the norm.


Finally I don't think wanting to find out what causes a deviation from the norm is necessarily discriminatory (after all we do it with other disorders and sicknesses). It's what science is about.

In fact it gives us an insight into how human sexuality functions as a whole and there are a whole heap of scientific and potential benefits here.



The attitude "dont' ask the question lest someone feels discriminated" typical of modern Western political correctness. I hate that attitude with a passion.
Rasputin

Posts: 467
From: USA

  04.07.2015 at 04:34
Written by no one on 03.07.2015 at 09:36

I watched this doco about pedophiles the other day. There was this guy who was attracted to little kids, though he had never acted on it.It was similar to if you were gay, it wasn't something he wanted, but he couldn't even commit because it would be breaking the law.

I guess what i'm saying is it could be like a sickness...being gay

Like I said, the only difference between being "gay" and a pedophile is the age thing, and age thing is arbitrary or to say my new favorite phrase "normative" to define adult and a minor.

I spoke to quite a few homosexuals both at work, in college and places of business, and almost every single one stated they would want to be straight if they could, so by their own admission they feel "wrong." This is one of the reasons why I still stand on my position of it being a form of an illness and/or disability, regardless of the liberal agenda to make it look like something brave and empowering.
no one

Posts: 3453

Age: 32
From: New Zealand

  04.07.2015 at 09:36
Written by IronAngel on 03.07.2015 at 11:47


Exactly like heterosexuality, too. We are what we are, these are empirical facts with no inherent meaning. Every human is slightly different, and there is no explicit norm which a "normal" person might perfectly embody. So when we determine sickness and disorder, we are making a social judgement call: this phenomenon is too different, this thing is harmful.

I cannot help being left-handed, and I am certainly a deviation from the average. We could very well label it a genetic disorder, but we don't because there is no reason to. When you label something a sickness or a disorder, it is not a scientific description of what the phenomenon is; it is a judgement call to say: this thing needs to be treated and prevented, this is not an acceptable state of affairs and we don't want it in our society.


This means homosexuality can be a disorder if we want it to. (Just like being red-haired or schizophrenic.) But no amount of scientific research can decide that question. It is precisely political lobbying and moral argumentation that must make the case. You have to convince us that it really is harmful, undesirable and effectively treatable, and that we should take active measures to prevent it. This is not science, this is politics.


i smell what ya cookin
----
nobody
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37988

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  04.07.2015 at 10:53
Written by Rasputin on 04.07.2015 at 04:34


Like I said, the only difference between being "gay" and a pedophile is the age thing.



The only difference between being "heterosexual" and a pedophile is the the age thing.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

IronAngel

Posts: 4525

Age: 26
From: Finland

  04.07.2015 at 11:42
Written by deadone on 04.07.2015 at 01:21

Again you're loading human values into natural function.


No. This is my entire point: whenever you say "normal" you stop describing nature and start making judgement calls. No such thing as "normal" exists outside a human (or otherwise sentient) system of norms. You and Rasputin keep trying to come up with examples of "natural" normalcy and disorder, but it's nothing but a case of muddled thought. (Even a statistical average is only the result of human selection of data, but we need not argue that since a statistical average would have no relevant consequence to the topic.)

That is not to say we should consider everything normal, or everything abnormal - in some cases, making drawing such lines can be practical. Plenty of sicknesses are with good reason treated and prevented. But you must not hide behind nature; you must acknowledge the role of human judgement in making these distinctions, and take responsibility. If society treats homosexuals different than heterosexuals, it is not because "nature, duh" but always because humans chose to do it. The point is: you need to justify that decision.

Of course researching the factual causes of homosexuality is fine. I said as much. I personally don't find it interesting and it has no political relevance (the kind Rasputin at least wanted to attribute to it; i.e. he is withholding moral judgement until there is more research), but the same can be said of most science. Some people take too absolute a stance on this topic, but it is a reaction to bigotry like Rasputin's. Homosexuality can be studied like any other phenomenon, with no ethical implications. It is very possible we find means of stimulating or preventing the development as we isolate some genetic and social causes. But so what?
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 41827

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  06.07.2015 at 01:05
Written by Rasputin on 04.07.2015 at 04:34

Written by no one on 03.07.2015 at 09:36

I watched this doco about pedophiles the other day. There was this guy who was attracted to little kids, though he had never acted on it.It was similar to if you were gay, it wasn't something he wanted, but he couldn't even commit because it would be breaking the law.

I guess what i'm saying is it could be like a sickness...being gay

Like I said, the only difference between being "gay" and a pedophile is the age thing, and age thing is arbitrary or to say my new favorite phrase "normative" to define adult and a minor.




seems to me you're biggest XXXXX in this planet, only brainless morron would say it , seems you don know anything about anything, your theory are base on race, hate and and blindness....
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Rasputin

Posts: 467
From: USA

  07.07.2015 at 01:15
Written by Bad English on 06.07.2015 at 01:05

Written by Rasputin on 04.07.2015 at 04:34

Written by no one on 03.07.2015 at 09:36

I watched this doco about pedophiles the other day. There was this guy who was attracted to little kids, though he had never acted on it.It was similar to if you were gay, it wasn't something he wanted, but he couldn't even commit because it would be breaking the law.

I guess what i'm saying is it could be like a sickness...being gay

Like I said, the only difference between being "gay" and a pedophile is the age thing, and age thing is arbitrary or to say my new favorite phrase "normative" to define adult and a minor.




seems to me you're biggest XXXXX in this planet, only brainless morron would say it , seems you don know anything about anything, your theory are base on race, hate and and blindness....

It could be worse, I could be fapping to EU and be scared of Russia like you
deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6701
From: Australia

  07.07.2015 at 02:54
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.07.2015 at 10:53

Written by Rasputin on 04.07.2015 at 04:34


Like I said, the only difference between being "gay" and a pedophile is the age thing.



The only difference between being "heterosexual" and a pedophile is the the age thing.


My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what Rasputin's take on anal sex between heterosexuals, group sex, multiple sexual partners, cheating on one's partner and anything outside of missionary position is? Are they one step away from pedophilia too?
Rasputin

Posts: 467
From: USA

  07.07.2015 at 05:20
Written by deadone on 07.07.2015 at 02:54

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.07.2015 at 10:53

Written by Rasputin on 04.07.2015 at 04:34


Like I said, the only difference between being "gay" and a pedophile is the age thing.



The only difference between being "heterosexual" and a pedophile is the the age thing.


My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what Rasputin's take on anal sex between heterosexuals, group sex, multiple sexual partners, cheating on one's partner and anything outside of missionary position is? Are they one step away from pedophilia too?

I am fairly certain that anus has a purpose for expelling waste, but who knows, new trends these days will make it hip to eat shit a la 2 girls one cup style and that would be ok I guess. I can see the appeal in sticking your dick in a lot of shit...mhm, must be a glorious feel...and smell.
Group sex? Hmm, well, I have a traditional view on relationships and marriage, so I cannot say I support it, but if you want to bring another guy to your bed, or a woman, that is up to you. Cheating should go without a comment from me.

I don't know, are they? Maybe we should consult the Catholic church, they have the most experience with all of this.
deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6701
From: Australia

  07.07.2015 at 05:34
Written by Rasputin on 07.07.2015 at 05:20

I am fairly certain that anus has a purpose for expelling waste, but who knows, new trends these days will make it hip to eat shit a la 2 girls one cup style and that would be ok I guess. I can see the appeal in sticking your dick in a lot of shit...mhm, must be a glorious feel...and smell.
Group sex? Hmm, well, I have a traditional view on relationships and marriage, so I cannot say I support it, but if you want to bring another guy to your bed, or a woman, that is up to you. Cheating should go without a comment from me.

I don't know, are they? Maybe we should consult the Catholic church, they have the most experience with all of this.



1. Me thinks anal sex has been around a lot longer than the internet.

2. Group sex - again as old as humans and even done by some of our other primate cousins (bonobo apes and chimpanzees). Kama Sutra was written about 1800 -2200 years ago so arguably even older than the Christian sexual traditions that you ascribe too.

My point is if you regard homosexuality as one step away from pedophilia are these deviations from Christian norms also one step away from pedophilia?

The traditional Christian and Islamic takes on sex are vile and extremely derogatory against women - sex is viewed as an necessary evil. Women are seen as evil seductresses peddling Satan's wares.
Rasputin

Posts: 467
From: USA

  08.07.2015 at 19:55
Written by deadone on 07.07.2015 at 05:34

Written by Rasputin on 07.07.2015 at 05:20

I am fairly certain that anus has a purpose for expelling waste, but who knows, new trends these days will make it hip to eat shit a la 2 girls one cup style and that would be ok I guess. I can see the appeal in sticking your dick in a lot of shit...mhm, must be a glorious feel...and smell.
Group sex? Hmm, well, I have a traditional view on relationships and marriage, so I cannot say I support it, but if you want to bring another guy to your bed, or a woman, that is up to you. Cheating should go without a comment from me.

I don't know, are they? Maybe we should consult the Catholic church, they have the most experience with all of this.



1. Me thinks anal sex has been around a lot longer than the internet.

2. Group sex - again as old as humans and even done by some of our other primate cousins (bonobo apes and chimpanzees). Kama Sutra was written about 1800 -2200 years ago so arguably even older than the Christian sexual traditions that you ascribe too.

My point is if you regard homosexuality as one step away from pedophilia are these deviations from Christian norms also one step away from pedophilia?

The traditional Christian and Islamic takes on sex are vile and extremely derogatory against women - sex is viewed as an necessary evil. Women are seen as evil seductresses peddling Satan's wares.

You are correct, it has been there for a while.

Group sex, you are correct has been done and still happens among the humans, and again it is not something I endorse, if not for STD's, and breaking the value of sex and fidelity in one way, then for separating us from animals.

The current trend is sex is just sex, well, if that is correct and everything is normative, it is fine for your spouse to have sex with as many people as she wants, because it is just sex, right? Since marriage is just a social concept.

Where do we draw the line?
deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6701
From: Australia

  09.07.2015 at 01:53
Written by Rasputin on 08.07.2015 at 19:55


Group sex, you are correct has been done and still happens among the humans, and again it is not something I endorse, if not for STD's, and breaking the value of sex and fidelity in one way, then for separating us from animals.


STDs can be avoided. As for fidelity, value of sex and separating us from animals, I don't see how enforcing certain sexual behaviours over others does any of this.

And bare in mind monogamy is present in some animal species as well who "mate for life." So hw does monogamy separate us from animals?

And why are we pretending that we're not animals?. Animals are far better than most people. Most dog owners know this!

Quote:
The current trend is sex is just sex, well, if that is correct and everything is normative, it is fine for your spouse to have sex with as many people as she wants, because it is just sex, right? Since marriage is just a social concept.

Where do we draw the line?


Wherever the fuck we want really - just like we always have. Hence it was ok for pedophilia in ancient Greece or Afghanistan but not ok for 21st century Westerners.

It's like any social value - it changes over history.
Rasputin

Posts: 467
From: USA

  09.07.2015 at 07:05
Written by deadone on 09.07.2015 at 01:53

Written by Rasputin on 08.07.2015 at 19:55


Group sex, you are correct has been done and still happens among the humans, and again it is not something I endorse, if not for STD's, and breaking the value of sex and fidelity in one way, then for separating us from animals.


STDs can be avoided. As for fidelity, value of sex and separating us from animals, I don't see how enforcing certain sexual behaviours over others does any of this.

And bare in mind monogamy is present in some animal species as well who "mate for life." So hw does monogamy separate us from animals?

And why are we pretending that we're not animals?. Animals are far better than most people. Most dog owners know this!

Quote:
The current trend is sex is just sex, well, if that is correct and everything is normative, it is fine for your spouse to have sex with as many people as she wants, because it is just sex, right? Since marriage is just a social concept.

Where do we draw the line?


Wherever the fuck we want really - just like we always have. Hence it was ok for pedophilia in ancient Greece or Afghanistan but not ok for 21st century Westerners.

It's like any social value - it changes over history.

Depends on a STD, some you may get even if you use protection, and others like Herpes, stay with you forever.

Well, if we are animals, then fuck all the rules, laws and regulations, and lets return to the old school times of warlords and tribes, because that's what it seems to be happening.

I for one was content with the way society operated before all this bullshit making a comeback. But, who cares, when Islam takes over, nothing will matter anyway.
deadone
loins are moist

Posts: 6701
From: Australia

  09.07.2015 at 08:07
Written by Rasputin on 09.07.2015 at 07:05

Depends on a STD, some you may get even if you use protection, and others like Herpes, stay with you forever.


Again you can get sex from monagamous relationships.

Quote:

Well, if we are animals, then fuck all the rules, laws and regulations, and lets return to the old school times of warlords and tribes, because that's what it seems to be happening.


We do that now too even if we might call them nation states and instead of beating each other with rocks we wage economic war and occassionally lob guided bombs.

And in most of the rest of the planet, it's still warlordism, feudalism, oppression and all the typical animalistic behaviour.



Quote:
I for one was content with the way society operated before all this bullshit making a comeback.



You were happy when people were oppressed for having sexual relations with other consenting adults? And it's not making a comeback. It just used to be hidden and not discussed cause it was taboo.

Also how old are you? Sexual freedom came to chunks of the West in the 1960s and has been growing since. First Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras was held in 1979, the year I was born! Homesexuality was legalised in most of Australia in the early 1980s!

Oh and other cultures always had different sexual traditions etc.


Quote:
But, who cares, when Islam takes over, nothing will matter anyway.


You'll get your wish for sexual conservatism then!


Oh and the concepts that govern sexual liberation also allow heavy metal to exist legally and not be banned or its fans persecuted.

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