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The original post

Posted by BreadGod on 04.09.2007 at 00:51
There was a thread about this a long time ago, but it was locked due to the people posting there being incompetent. This is a very touchy subject, I know, but I want people to at least attempt to act in a civilized matter when discussing this. Flamewars are forbidden, and anyone attempting to start a flamewar will be doused in a chemical bath. With all of this out of the way, let's discuss our views on this subject.

Personally, I have no quarrels with someone being gay, or even bisexual for that matter. To each his own. They are not the monsters that religions make them out to be. They walk, talk, and think just like anyone else, and they have a great plethora of ideas to contribute to society. They are also just as intelligent as everyone else, and they have the same concerns and worries as any other person. As a real life example, my mother's hair dresser (who is also my hair dresser, which explains why my hair is so beautiful) is gay, but he is quite the upstanding fellow, and is quite intelligent. In short, I greatly respect the gay community and I wish to see them claim the same rights as everyone else.

Discussion starts... now.



Page 13 of 20

Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18605
From: Canada

  09.01.2012 at 17:08
Written by Milena on 09.01.2012 at 16:00
A person who has such views should seek out a psychiatrist to discover what causes such negative views at an entire group of people, and heal his prejudice somehow.

Or just move to Canada.
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Prettier than BloodTears.
Mr. Doctor
Skandino

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Age: 21
From: Sweden

  09.01.2012 at 18:38
Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.01.2012 at 17:08

Written by Milena on 09.01.2012 at 16:00
A person who has such views should seek out a psychiatrist to discover what causes such negative views at an entire group of people, and heal his prejudice somehow.

Or just move to Canada.


Cana....da? What the fuck is that?
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
Angelic Storm
Melodious

Posts: 6656
From: UK

  09.01.2012 at 18:42
Written by Milena on 09.01.2012 at 16:00
Gays have it way harder than us though. They can't show affection anywhere, at least not here in Serbia. Most of them are scorned by their families. And I can't imagine a gay person holding a job for many years and not being harassed unless they lie. I live in a pretty homophobic country, and when I say I wouldn't mind being friends with a gay man/woman or seeing a gay couple kiss in the street, everyone looks at me like I'm not right in the head. I'm not saying everyone should be supportive, but homophobia is very dangerous. Same thing as racism really. A person who has such views should seek out a psychiatrist to discover what causes such negative views at an entire group of people, and heal his prejudice somehow.


Oh absolutely. I think that's another major reason why it's stupid to think that gay people choose to be gay. Generally, it's far harder to live in our society as a gay person, than as a straight person. So why would gay people choose such a hard road for themselves if they could simply choose not to? The UK is meant to be a more tolerant country, but that's really only on the surface. Even here, there is a lot of homophobia around. I have never seen a gay couple kiss or hold hands in the street, although I have seen a few couples who are quite clearly gay. It's hard to tell with women though, as straight women can hold hands/walk arm in arm in the street and nobody bats an eyelid at that.

Well, I believe in free speech, so people can oppose homosexuality if they wish. However, yes, homophobia can be a very dangerous thing. But then prejudice in general is a dangerous thing.
Ernis
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From: Estonia

  09.01.2012 at 21:32
Written by Angelic Storm on 09.01.2012 at 12:20

The major pitfall with this line of thought is there are lots of people who had bad childhoods who grow up to be straight, and many people with mental disorders stemming from that are also straight. At the same time, there surely are gay people who grew up in "normal" households, and had a run-of-the-mill childhoods.

I foresaw a post such as yours. You've got a good point and, as I already wrote, I reckon, not everyone from a dysfunctional family grows up to be gay just as not everyone from a normal household is definitely going to be straight. Most gay/bi people I've talked to have revealed something painful from their childhood, even if they actually didn't have any hard feelings about it. For example, there was a girl who said that she'd never ever want a man, that she's a bisexual who strongly prefers women and that she'd have a child only via IVF. We never discussed it but she had mentioned previously that her father and mother had not been on good terms and she was also angry at her mother's new husband who had cheated on her. It's natural that both a father figure and a mother figure are essential for a child to learn about the relationship between men and women.

I also know people who have a normal family, a father and a mother and siblings. Everything may seemingly be all right but when you get to know those people more closely, you hear that actually they grew up without either fatherly or motherly love because the relationship with one parent was distant. I heard once that younger siblings are more likely to be homosexual than firstborns. It's somewhat logic when speaking bout guys because, for example, there are families where older brothers get more attention from their dad who introduces them to the "men's business" while the younger brothers are deprived of that and instead may be under the influence of a possibly overprotective mother.

It's very complex, but once more, I still can't agree that it's a congenital issue. Sexuality is a psychological matter and as all things psychological, they have many causes in the environment that surrounds a child.

I don't think bad of gays at all. I have to admit, unfortunately enough, that nearly all the gay people I've met in my life, it's been very difficult to communicate with them. I'd even say it's been unpleasant. Why? Because I've felt their enormous frustration and even anger. I can't even start a conversation, not to speak of mentioning their sexual orientation (I always want to be tactful, I never speak about that topic first), but still they bring this issue up all the time. Once a gay guy started bashing me in the vein of "So you're a Christian, I heard. You hate gays, right? But how are you any better? You drink, smoke and want to get laid? Isn't that dirty? Isn't that hypocrisy?" Yeah, sure, I'm a human being. I can be Christian and I can drink and smoke and all that jazz. But why belittle me while I actually don't have any desire to condemn him because of his sexual orientation. One bloke once asked me "Why are you not gay?" I couldn't understand him at first but then he said that "You're so friendly with me. I'm gay but mostly only other gay people are friendly with me. So I though that maybe you are too." Dear Lord... isn't that essential to be nice and respectful towards everyone, regardless their skin colour, religion, sexual orientation? I don't have to be muslim to have muslim friends, I don't have to be gay in order to respect gay people. I think we could all just live and let live and all be happy. But there will always be aggressive people: those who attack (maybe in self defence) because they think that they are constantly being discriminated and those who attack because they are narrow-minded.

Written by Milena on 09.01.2012 at 16:00

*agrees*

Gays have it way harder than us though. They can't show affection anywhere, at least not here in Serbia. Most of them are scorned by their families. And I can't imagine a gay person holding a job for many years and not being harassed unless they lie. I live in a pretty homophobic country, and when I say I wouldn't mind being friends with a gay man/woman or seeing a gay couple kiss in the street, everyone looks at me like I'm not right in the head. I'm not saying everyone should be supportive, but homophobia is very dangerous. Same thing as racism really. A person who has such views should seek out a psychiatrist to discover what causes such negative views at an entire group of people, and heal his prejudice somehow.

Here I should ask that why should I go and consult a psychiatrist and a gay person shouldn't. I don't even qualify as a homophobic person. I think that homosexuals deserve to be helped. I may be old-fashioned, but I do find myself thinking that homosexual people will eventually end up being deprived of several beautiful things in human life (yeah, I know, heterosexuals also can have a life that sucks). I do not agree with people who wish them to receive jail sentences or even death sentences. I think that they should be approached in a kind manner and together seek the underlying causes of their condition or accept them the way they are and let them live like they want. All I can just say is that it's wrong what the militant gay activists do. They seem to wish to declare heterosexuality an anomaly. Their attack on traditional family values also hurts me. There are a few things I hold dear and I am an idealist in a way. I just can't accept the idea of homosexual couples raising kids. I just can't, sorry. And those things, in fact, insult those gay people who are persecuted because of the bad reputation that's being drawn upon them by those fanatic "gay rights" activists.

In Estonia shiteloads of money were spent on an ad campaign "Diversity enriches". There are huge posters and billboards with caricatures of people with Down syndrome, homosexuals, black people etc around the town with slogans "You noticed the DISABLITY? But did you notice the football fan?" This angers me. I find that whoever's behind this propaganda, is actually hurting and discriminating all those people by placing these degrading pictures above the rooftops. It humiliates those who need our help and understanding, it makes masses of uneducated people despise them instead and thus makes their life even more miserable. Is that what they want?
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Milena
Learning To "X"

Posts: 4380

Age: 22
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  10.01.2012 at 00:15
Written by Ernis on 09.01.2012 at 21:32

Here I should ask that why should I go and consult a psychiatrist and a gay person shouldn't. I don't even qualify as a homophobic person. I think that homosexuals deserve to be helped. I may be old-fashioned, but I do find myself thinking that homosexual people will eventually end up being deprived of several beautiful things in human life (yeah, I know, heterosexuals also can have a life that sucks). I do not agree with people who wish them to receive jail sentences or even death sentences. I think that they should be approached in a kind manner and together seek the underlying causes of their condition or accept them the way they are and let them live like they want.

All I can just say is that it's wrong what the militant gay activists do. They seem to wish to declare heterosexuality an anomaly. Their attack on traditional family values also hurts me. There are a few things I hold dear and I am an idealist in a way. I just can't accept the idea of homosexual couples raising kids. I just can't, sorry. And those things, in fact, insult those gay people who are persecuted because of the bad reputation that's being drawn upon them by those fanatic "gay rights" activists.

Well I can only answer to the first part of your post by a cliche "life's not fair". In an ideal world, they would never be deprived of all the loveliness of love. Everyone could express their love the way they want to. If you meant raising kids, well, there are people who are also biologically disabled to have kids. There are also straight people in the world who are deprived of some "heterosexual" things we take for granted because they live in secluded parts of the world. It's sad, really, the way gay people are "missing out" but there is nothing we can do about it. You can only hope to build a better society for us all to live in.

As for gay activists attacking, well, some of them just appear as they're attacking, but by suggesting an untraditional family model they aren't suggesting that we do away with the traditional one. As for the ones who are really attacking - well, maybe they're just crazy (they wouldn't be the first people talking about crazy shit in public and getting away with it), or maybe attack is the best defense to them due to bitterness and underappreciated feelings. I wouldn't attribute it to homosexuality, but to bad personality traits.
----
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Angelic Storm
Melodious

Posts: 6656
From: UK

  10.01.2012 at 00:38
Written by Ernis on 09.01.2012 at 21:32
I foresaw a post such as yours. You've got a good point and, as I already wrote, I reckon, not everyone from a dysfunctional family grows up to be gay just as not everyone from a normal household is definitely going to be straight. Most gay/bi people I've talked to have revealed something painful from their childhood, even if they actually didn't have any hard feelings about it. For example, there was a girl who said that she'd never ever want a man, that she's a bisexual who strongly prefers women and that she'd have a child only via IVF. We never discussed it but she had mentioned previously that her father and mother had not been on good terms and she was also angry at her mother's new husband who had cheated on her. It's natural that both a father figure and a mother figure are essential for a child to learn about the relationship between men and women.


Well, I also had a dysfunctional childhood where although I had both parents in my life throughout most of my childhood, there was aspects of it that definitely weren't "normal", or they shouldn't have been. Despite the way my father could sometimes be, I've never once even thought that I might be a lesbian, or even bisexual. My desires and attractions have always been solely towards men. And I'm just one example. If such a childhood is responsible for making a girl turn out gay, how come that didn't happen to me?

Written by Ernis on 09.01.2012 at 21:32
I also know people who have a normal family, a father and a mother and siblings. Everything may seemingly be all right but when you get to know those people more closely, you hear that actually they grew up without either fatherly or motherly love because the relationship with one parent was distant. I heard once that younger siblings are more likely to be homosexual than firstborns. It's somewhat logic when speaking bout guys because, for example, there are families where older brothers get more attention from their dad who introduces them to the "men's business" while the younger brothers are deprived of that and instead may be under the influence of a possibly overprotective mother.


I knew a guy who was very close to his mother, and very distant from his father. And associated with girls far more in his childhood than men. Yet he's very much heterosexual. So again, I find it hard to believe that sort of thing is the source of male homosexuality.

Written by Ernis on 09.01.2012 at 21:32
It's very complex, but once more, I still can't agree that it's a congenital issue. Sexuality is a psychological matter and as all things psychological, they have many causes in the environment that surrounds a child.


It is very complex, but I think there are far too many contradictions, and as I've pointed out, deviations from that template for saying sexuality is purely a psyhological matter. I think at most, it's a combination of biological and envoirnmental factors. Rather than envoirnmental factors being the sole cause. But when gay people say they feel they were born gay, I have no reason to really doubt that. As I said before, I never chose to be straight, so therefore it would be quite silly for me to think that they are choosing to be gay.

Written by Ernis on 09.01.2012 at 21:32
I don't think bad of gays at all. I have to admit, unfortunately enough, that nearly all the gay people I've met in my life, it's been very difficult to communicate with them. I'd even say it's been unpleasant. Why? Because I've felt their enormous frustration and even anger. I can't even start a conversation, not to speak of mentioning their sexual orientation (I always want to be tactful, I never speak about that topic first), but still they bring this issue up all the time. Once a gay guy started bashing me in the vein of "So you're a Christian, I heard. You hate gays, right? But how are you any better? You drink, smoke and want to get laid? Isn't that dirty? Isn't that hypocrisy?" Yeah, sure, I'm a human being. I can be Christian and I can drink and smoke and all that jazz. But why belittle me while I actually don't have any desire to condemn him because of his sexual orientation. One bloke once asked me "Why are you not gay?" I couldn't understand him at first but then he said that "You're so friendly with me. I'm gay but mostly only other gay people are friendly with me. So I though that maybe you are too." Dear Lord... isn't that essential to be nice and respectful towards everyone, regardless their skin colour, religion, sexual orientation? I don't have to be muslim to have muslim friends, I don't have to be gay in order to respect gay people. I think we could all just live and let live and all be happy. But there will always be aggressive people: those who attack (maybe in self defence) because they think that they are constantly being discriminated and those who attack because they are narrow-minded.


Well, to be fair, I think many gay people have every right to feel angry and frustrated about their situation. Not so much over their sexuality, but others' attitudes towards it. I only know one gay guy, and he's nice and pleasant to be around. And to me, that's all I care about. If a person is a good, decent person, then their sexuality is a non-issue. Or at least it should be. But yep, gay people are capable of being intolerant, and prejudiced as well, which is ironic as they really should know better. And I couldn't agree more. We should all just live and let live. If everyone did that, this world would be a far nicer place to live in.

As for aggressive people, it can be understandable for those who have been constantly discriminated against, even if in the end, it ends up being counter productive. You cannot end aggressive and prejudiced attitudes by being those things yourself. Violence begets violence. And narrow-minded people who attack... well, we'd all be better off without those types of people in society, but they've always been around, and sadly probably always will be.
Ernis
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Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  10.01.2012 at 00:55
Written by Milena on 10.01.2012 at 00:15

I wouldn't attribute it to homosexuality, but to bad personality traits.

Yep. Besides, I never said that homosexuality equals bad personality traits.

Also, I wrote it earlier in brackets that heterosexuals can also have a lousy life. There's plenty of heterosexual couples who can't have kids, it's tragic. There's plenty of heterosexual couples who have kids but who are lousy parents. And there might be homosexual couples out there who could be decent parents. I know all of this. Nevertheless, I am an idealist, I wish that all kids could grow up in happy heterosexual couples where mum and dad adore each other and their kids. It's such a beautiful thing. People should work in order to achieve it. It's not always easy but it's worth it. I know that there've always been broken families. There have always been families with domestic violence and stuff. But I have a feeling that nowadays the "happy family model" is becoming even rarer with all those divorces being so frequent, all those untraditional family models being promoted etc. As if someone were telling people "Don't bother at all. Just do whatever you want." People become more and more shallow. We aren't allowed to fix things, we are instead forced to become used to broken things. It's perhaps off-topic but homosexuality is just a tiny part of a larger issue. Families break up so easily, people are so distant from each other. Whenever there's a quarrel or a disharmony in relationships, people don't even try to find a peaceful and friendly solution but instead throw everything into the garbage can. Humanity could do so much better. Instead of shutting up and suffering in shameful silence, people should trust each other, talk to one another and learn to listen. I'm not expecting anyone's going to do that. But it'd be nice.

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.01.2012 at 00:38

Well, I also had a dysfunctional childhood where although I had both parents in my life throughout most of my childhood, there was aspects of it that definitely weren't "normal", or they shouldn't have been. Despite the way my father could sometimes be, I've never once even thought that I might be a lesbian, or even bisexual. My desires and attractions have always been solely towards men. And I'm just one example. If such a childhood is responsible for making a girl turn out gay, how come that didn't happen to me?

But I never wrote anywhere that 100% of kids from dysfunctional families end up being homosexual. Instead what I wanted to say was that many (not all) homosexuals have had "family history". It's completely the opposite. It's not that all As become Bs. It's just that many Bs have been As. Neither did I say that all of them deliberately chose to be gay or bi. One person I've known indeed made a choice but it was because of frustration and anger towards the opposite sex. Another example was described by an acquaintance of mine. She knew one guy who decided to have sexual relationships with men only because of anger towards women which stemmed from his past. A friend of mine told me how one friend of his had always had rotten luck with women and later tried it with guys, an experience that scarred him so much that he jumped off a bridge. All stories of gay people have been really sad ones. And, for sure, I bet none of them really chose that kind of life. Out of all those gay/bi people I think I've talked to only one "happy" kind of bloke. And even he actually seemed as if from another planet to me.

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.01.2012 at 00:38

Well, to be fair, I think many gay people have every right to feel angry and frustrated about their situation. Not so much over their sexuality, but others' attitudes towards it. I only know one gay guy, and he's nice and pleasant to be around. And to me, that's all I care about. If a person is a good, decent person, then their sexuality is a non-issue. Or at least it should be. But yep, gay people are capable of being intolerant, and prejudiced as well, which is ironic as they really should know better. And I couldn't agree more. We should all just live and let live. If everyone did that, this world would be a far nicer place to live in.

For me also, personality is the most important thing about other people. Anyone's sexuality is a non-issue for me as long as that person is a good and kind one and respectful towards others. And if that person is a douche, then my opinion is based on his behaviour, not his sexual preferences. After all, I can't tell another person "Hey, don't do this/Don't do that!" If two blokes decide to be a couple or if two chicks like to have some fun with each other, please. I am not going to verbally julienne them because of that.
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Go ahead, make my day...
Milena
Learning To "X"

Posts: 4380

Age: 22
From: Serbia

  10.01.2012 at 01:01
Written by Ernis on 10.01.2012 at 00:55

post

Well, with all those broken families, I'd gladly see gays who have good parenting skills adopt children and give them a loving home, but unfortunately, as we don't live in a perfect world, those kids would be bullied a lot by their peers. So I wouldn't allow gay people to adopt children. I cannot help but think that some gay couples who do that in extremely homophobic areas are either terribly naive or so blinded by their desire to raise a child that they forget the child's benefit. That's bad.
----
"There comes a time when you look into the mirror and you realize that what you see is all that you will ever be. And then you accept it. Or you kill yourself. Or you stop looking in mirrors."
Angelic Storm
Melodious

Posts: 6656
From: UK

  10.01.2012 at 01:16
Written by Milena on 10.01.2012 at 01:01
Well, with all those broken families, I'd gladly see gays who have good parenting skills adopt children and give them a loving home, but unfortunately, as we don't live in a perfect world, those kids would be bullied a lot by their peers. So I wouldn't allow gay people to adopt children.


This has always been my stance on gay adoption. I have absolutely no problem with it in principle, but like you say, a kid with gay parents would almost certainly be targets for bullying by their peers, and for this reason I wouldn't support it. Though this is much more a damning verdict on a violent, prejudicial society, than it is on gay parents. I'd much rather kids were brought up by two gay people who will show them love and never harm them, than in an abusive heterosexual family.
Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  10.01.2012 at 01:30
Written by Milena on 10.01.2012 at 01:01

Well, with all those broken families, I'd gladly see gays who have good parenting skills adopt children and give them a loving home, but unfortunately, as we don't live in a perfect world, those kids would be bullied a lot by their peers. So I wouldn't allow gay people to adopt children. I cannot help but think that some gay couples who do that in extremely homophobic areas are either terribly naive or so blinded by their desire to raise a child that they forget the child's benefit. That's bad.


Bingo!

That's the point I was waiting to make. Nowadays I hear many people saying things like "OMG. My friend Abby has a little baby girl. OMG she's so cute. I suddenly also have a craving for a little baby. Babies are cute, I wanna have a baby. Hey, you also wanna have some baby? Good! Let's all go and piss our hubbies off by saying that WE WAN'T BABIES. AND IF YOU NO WANNA MAKE BABY WE GONNA MAKE BABY WITH OTHER MEN!"

A baby is not a toy. A baby is a huge responsibility. It's a living soul who's going to have an entire life ahead, a life that's most probably gonna be filled with many painful and difficult experiences. A baby is not "an investment for my old age" as many think. A child doesn't belong to me me nor to my wife. We have the responsibility to bring the kid up but we cannot demand anything from the kid, we cannot bend the kid to our will nor say things such as "Shut up stupid kid, if I'd used a bloody condom, you wouldn't be here!"

A child is a gift. And it's a gift that shouldn't be taken as granted nor treated like some project. In the past kids have been treated like projects and it's being done also today. Using surrogate mothers and IVF is also something I actually don't approve because... if a child is born, he's born. You can't make it happen just because you "need a kid". Adopting is another thing, it's a noble thing to give a home to some poor kids, out of pure heart and love. It's very beautiful. But it shouldn't be done out of selfish need.

If I were never destined to become a father, what could I do. I guess that'd be my fate. Mayb it'd be even better because seeing the world changing around me I sometimes think I'd do a bad thing condemning a child into a world like this. Life's a bitch. Why should I do this to a poor kid.

You asked a right thing. Do gays think bout themselves or their kids? I have a feeling that they only want the kids in order to simulate a family or in order to compete with hetero couples. Adoption, I can tolerate that. If there are poor homeless kids and there's some lovely lesbian couple giving them a home, yep, why the hell not. But surrogate mothers and/or IVF for homosexual couples? OH NO!

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.01.2012 at 01:16

I'd much rather kids were brought up by two gay people who will show them love and never harm them, than in an abusive heterosexual family.

I know. I also think that the first option sounds definitely better than the latter. However, it still is similar to a choice between being deaf or being both blind and deaf. Or a choice between gonorrhoea and HIV.
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Valentin B
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  10.01.2012 at 11:52
Written by Ernis on 10.01.2012 at 01:30

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.01.2012 at 01:16

I'd much rather kids were brought up by two gay people who will show them love and never harm them, than in an abusive heterosexual family.

I know. I also think that the first option sounds definitely better than the latter. However, it still is similar to a choice between being deaf or being both blind and deaf. Or a choice between gonorrhoea and HIV.

how exactly can you compare being gay and wanting to have a child to having a disease? I think you need to have more gay people in your circle of acquaintances and you tell me if they seem like "diseased" individuals.

People have this weird idea that if a person is gay, then oh my, it must mean that they are completely inadequate as members of society. There are thousands of normal people out there who just happen to be gay, but are otherwise normal persons and don't have "corrupted morals" or anything. These people are just women in men's skins / men in women's skins, and if they manage to teach the child to look past what is physical (which should always be the case, with a homo- or heterosexual family) then the child will have no trouble growing up. Now we have sex-change operations, if a gay man decides to become a woman (thus becoming both physically and mentally a woman), would a gay man only under that circumstance be rid of his "disease"?

And as for "gays trying to compete with hetero couples", it sounds like one of those "the jews are trying to take over the world" conspiracy theories. Is it that hard to imagine these people as normal humans with just one aspect of their personality that is different?
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Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

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  10.01.2012 at 13:23
Rereading this topic it is clear that a lot of people posting here don't know many gay/lesbian people well and have any of them in their close circle of friends.
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Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  10.01.2012 at 14:20
Written by Valentin B on 10.01.2012 at 11:52

how exactly can you compare being gay and wanting to have a child to having a disease? I think you need to have more gay people in your circle of acquaintances and you tell me if they seem like "diseased" individuals.

I was pointing out that if you take three family types: heterosexual happy family, homosexual happy family and heterosexual abusive family then the first one is undoubtedly the best option. While a homosexual happy family is definitely a lot better than a heterosexual abusive family, the heterosexual happy family is still the best environment for a kid to grow. qed

Written by Valentin B on 10.01.2012 at 11:52

People have this weird idea that if a person is gay, then oh my, it must mean that they are completely inadequate as members of society. There are thousands of normal people out there who just happen to be gay, but are otherwise normal persons and don't have "corrupted morals" or anything.

Of course, I know that. It's not the sexual preferences that determine whether someone has a great personality or a lousy one. I've never bashed nor looked down upon anyone because of their sexual orientation. There've been many musicians and artists who've been gay/bi. It's their work that lasts and is the most important thing. They never paraded around nor accused people of discriminating them unlike some angry activists. I think I've mentioned it before.
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Valentin B
Iconoclast

Posts: 10009

Age: 24
From: Belgium

  10.01.2012 at 14:37
Written by Ernis on 10.01.2012 at 14:20

Written by Valentin B on 10.01.2012 at 11:52

how exactly can you compare being gay and wanting to have a child to having a disease? I think you need to have more gay people in your circle of acquaintances and you tell me if they seem like "diseased" individuals.

I was pointing out that if you take three family types: heterosexual happy family, homosexual happy family and heterosexual abusive family then the first one is undoubtedly the best option. While a homosexual happy family is definitely a lot better than a heterosexual abusive family, the heterosexual happy family is still the best environment for a kid to grow. qed

This is prejudice. You are just assuming that a gay man (who is, mentally, a woman) cannot be qualified to do what feels most natural for him (some don't even like to be referred as "he") and behave like one when raising a child. And this is not an attack on "family values", it's just a solution for those people who cannot have a child of their own. If we allow that, it won't mean that the traditional family structure is going to go away (which imo it mostly has, but for totally different reasons), it just means that those who would have felt inadequate in such a structure have the freedom to choose one of their own.

As Angelic Storm i think said a few posts up though, the only reason gay couples should not adopt children is because of their instant, unanimous damnation by society. This might work for example in the Netherlands or even Spain, but try to do that in Romania, and people will spit on you on the street. Try to do that in Pakistan, and you'll get a public stoning.
----
Sing me a song, you're a singer
Do me a wrong, you're a bringer of evil.
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18605
From: Canada

  10.01.2012 at 22:13
Written by Ernis on 10.01.2012 at 14:20
I was pointing out that if you take three family types: heterosexual happy family, homosexual happy family and heterosexual abusive family then the first one is undoubtedly the best option. While a homosexual happy family is definitely a lot better than a heterosexual abusive family, the heterosexual happy family is still the best environment for a kid to grow. qed


Just sayin'.
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Prettier than BloodTears.
Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  10.01.2012 at 22:22
Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.01.2012 at 22:13

Just sayin'.


I think the majority of people have straight parents : )
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Go ahead, make my day...
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18605
From: Canada

  10.01.2012 at 22:24
Written by Ernis on 10.01.2012 at 22:22
I think the majority of people have straight parents : )

I know... that just goes to show you how your assumption about straight parents being the "better" situation for child rearing is flawed.

Some straight parents suck at parenting, some are awesome. The same can be said for gay parents. Some suck, some are awesome.
----
Prettier than BloodTears.
Slayer666

Posts: 2363

Age: 20
From: Serbia

  10.01.2012 at 22:27
Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.01.2012 at 22:24

Some straight parents suck at parenting, some are awesome. The same can be said for gay parents. Some suck, some are awesome.


But it's not about the parents themselves. As someone pointed out, it's about the treatment the kid will get from his peers when they discover he has two daddies.
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18605
From: Canada

  10.01.2012 at 22:37
Written by Slayer666 on 10.01.2012 at 22:27
But it's not about the parents themselves. As someone pointed out, it's about the treatment the kid will get from his peers when they discover he has two daddies.

That falls on the kids - who, if raised by parents that endorse open-mindedness, tolerance, and acceptance, will not make a big deal out of a situation like that.

The kids who are enduring any kind of bullying or even inadvertent slander are paving the way for future generations to have a safer environment, much like the women of yore made the world we live in today more gender equal. (At least outside of the Middle East and shit.)
----
Prettier than BloodTears.
Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  10.01.2012 at 22:44
Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.01.2012 at 22:24

Written by Ernis on 10.01.2012 at 22:22
I think the majority of people have straight parents : )

I know... that just goes to show you how your assumption about straight parents being the "better" situation for child rearing is flawed.

Some straight parents suck at parenting, some are awesome. The same can be said for gay parents. Some suck, some are awesome.


His parents might've been straight but I've heard he had a problematic childhood and a sad family history.

No, my assumption is not flawed.

Nothing is better than a happy traditional family.

Or mayb I am wrong and we need more unhappy families in order to produce unhappy kids who then try to do everything better themselves and not repeat the mistakes of their parents. Gay guys raising a daughter? Ok, they may be the most awesome parents in the world. But a girl needs a MOTHER. So does a son. And a son needs a FATHER, a male role model (YES, in order to avoid misunderstandings, heterosexual males can also fail as role models). Lesbians raising a son? Once again... a boy needs a FATHER. No woman can substitute a father's position in a family. Lesbians raising a daughter? A daughter still needs a father.

Nothing can possibly replace a happy normal family model. I don't expect to ever have kids myself because I'd very much like to be as similar to "the holy family" as possible. I know there are families like that, I know people who have beautiful memories of their childhoods spent with their grandparents who loved and respected each other for all the long years of being together, whose kids grew up to be educated and nice people.
And the reason I don't expect to have such a family is... it's impossible nowadays. Current society doesn't support such a family model any more. It's considered easier to demolish it and instead support all kinds of "incomplete" versions.
----
Go ahead, make my day...
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18605
From: Canada

  10.01.2012 at 22:50
I can't talk to you. Your narrow-minded views are just infuriating and people like you are why kids in school who have gay parents are groomed to believe they are somehow in the wrong.

I can't tell whether you spend too much time absorbing whatever the leftists publish or taking offense to whatever the right wing is propagating. In either case, I'm happy to live in a country where - generally - homosexuals aren't judged based on ignorance.
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Prettier than BloodTears.
Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  10.01.2012 at 22:57
Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.01.2012 at 22:50

I can't talk to you. Your narrow-minded views are just infuriating and people like you are why kids in school who have gay parents are groomed to believe they are somehow in the wrong.


Me neither. It looks like one either has to be 100% pro or 100% contra. I'm not going to repeat that I have nothing against gay people. They may live together and be happy and all that jazz. I just don't support them getting in vitro fertilisation in order to produce offspring in an unnatural way (just the same way I don't support IVF for single chicks who just want a baby for the sake of having one). Other than that, I'm ok with them. But if being 95% supportive instead of 100% still lands me among homophobic fascists, I'm ok with it.
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Go ahead, make my day...
jupitreas
Djerk

Posts: 6516
From: Poland

  10.01.2012 at 23:35
Written by Ernis on 10.01.2012 at 22:44

Nothing can possibly replace a happy normal family model.


This is an opinion that is not grounded in scientific fact. There is in fact no evidence that would suggest that the typical European/American nuclear family model is any more successful than any other model out there. In fact, many sociologists believe that the artificial limitations of this model are responsible for many mental problems that people experience today.
Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  11.01.2012 at 00:39
Written by jupitreas on 10.01.2012 at 23:35

There is in fact no evidence that would suggest that the typical European/American nuclear family model is any more successful than any other model out there. In fact, many sociologists believe that the artificial limitations of this model are responsible for many mental problems that people experience today.


It is true indeed that a typical western family model may not always be a successful one. As I said, homosexuals come from heterosexual families too. Any family can be seemingly normal but everything depends on how the parents treat each other and their kids. Sometimes parents don't necessarily have to treat their kids in a bad way in order to cause difficulties for the children when they grow up. Bringing up a kid is such a responsibility that many parents never even grasp it. I think similar conversations were held in the Proud Parent thread once.
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Go ahead, make my day...
Angelic Storm
Melodious

Posts: 6656
From: UK

  11.01.2012 at 01:06
Written by Ernis on 10.01.2012 at 00:55
But I never wrote anywhere that 100% of kids from dysfunctional families end up being homosexual. Instead what I wanted to say was that many (not all) homosexuals have had "family history". It's completely the opposite. It's not that all As become Bs. It's just that many Bs have been As. Neither did I say that all of them deliberately chose to be gay or bi. One person I've known indeed made a choice but it was because of frustration and anger towards the opposite sex. Another example was described by an acquaintance of mine. She knew one guy who decided to have sexual relationships with men only because of anger towards women which stemmed from his past. A friend of mine told me how one friend of his had always had rotten luck with women and later tried it with guys, an experience that scarred him so much that he jumped off a bridge. All stories of gay people have been really sad ones. And, for sure, I bet none of them really chose that kind of life. Out of all those gay/bi people I think I've talked to only one "happy" kind of bloke. And even he actually seemed as if from another planet to me.


Well, with the amount of dysfunctional families that are out there, then it just stands to reason that some gay people will have been reared by those families. There's no firm evidence to suggest that gay people become gay because of family difficulties. I would say those specific cases you are describing are very much in the minority, and the extreme end of the wedge. Most gay people's unhappiness growing up stems from others' attitudes towards homosexuality, more than anything else. People who "choose" to be gay, are not really gay at all, I would argue. And these people will find that out for themselves sooner or later. A lot of people, especially guys, think that women become lesbians because of bad experiences with men, or lack of luck with them. To many such people, I would tick all the boxes required to "be a lesbian", yet I've never been that way inclined.

Like I said, Your true sexuality can be defied, but not chosen. People who choose to be gay are really no different than gay people who are in the closet. They are living a false life to cover up an aspect of themselves, or past life which they cannot get to grips with. However, like I said, people in this category who identify as gay are very much in a minority, and can't be used as a means of saying that all gay people are gay because of bad experiences with the opposite sex.

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.01.2012 at 00:38
For me also, personality is the most important thing about other people. Anyone's sexuality is a non-issue for me as long as that person is a good and kind one and respectful towards others. And if that person is a douche, then my opinion is based on his behaviour, not his sexual preferences. After all, I can't tell another person "Hey, don't do this/Don't do that!" If two blokes decide to be a couple or if two chicks like to have some fun with each other, please. I am not going to verbally julienne them because of that.


That is of course, as it should be. Whilst I may not agree with some of your views regarding gay people, it is pleasing that you can hold those views, but still have that attitude towards them. A person's sexuality should never be an issue when it comes to how their worth as people is judged. Sure some gay people can be idiots, but then, a lot of heteros are also idiots. There's no single negative personality trait that is exclusive to gay people only.
jupitreas
Djerk

Posts: 6516
From: Poland

  11.01.2012 at 01:24
Written by Ernis on 11.01.2012 at 00:39

As I said, homosexuals come from heterosexual families too.


This implies that homosexual people are somehow abnormal or flawed. Meanwhile, no scientific authority supports this statement. The general consensus is that "Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience."

Some social scientists even believe that the definitions of homosexuality and heterosexuality are actually just constructs prevalent in western culture. Throughout history, there have been many cultures where homosexual behavior was seen as completely normal.

Generally speaking, I think that much of the discrimination that homosexual people face comes from stereotypes that come from religious and political rhetoric prevalent in pan-European cultures. Homosexuality goes against the concept of a nuclear family; however, that concept developed largely due to economical constraints and is not in any way, shape or form, the natural order of how human beings form social groups. Throughout history there are countless other family models that worked just as well under the conditions specific to the time and place.

Nuclear families are experiencing a crisis in developed countries now simply because they are no longer the ideal economic unit. It is no longer necessary to be in a successful nuclear family to be successful in life and therefore people go into relationships because of emotional reasons more than practical ones. This is why about 50% of all marriages currently end in divorce. A lot of people look at nuclear families as the ideal family unit; however, this is an example of a nostalgia trap. There is in fact no evidence that nuclear families were ever particularly successful or beneficial for the people they raised.
Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  11.01.2012 at 01:55
Written by jupitreas on 11.01.2012 at 01:24

nostalgia trap.

Boo-hoo... you shattered my vision of a beautiful and perfect world. I don't wanna live on this planet any more.

All right, I'm just kidding with you... forget it...

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.01.2012 at 01:06

To many such people, I would tick all the boxes required to "be a lesbian", yet I've never been that way inclined.


Not all As are Bs even though many Bs are As... I will say no more.

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.01.2012 at 01:06

That is of course, as it should be. Whilst I may not agree with some of your views regarding gay people, it is pleasing that you can hold those views, but still have that attitude towards them. A person's sexuality should never be an issue when it comes to how their worth as people is judged. Sure some gay people can be idiots, but then, a lot of heteros are also idiots. There's no single negative personality trait that is exclusive to gay people only.

What views? Can't say I'd have a problem with them on a personal level. Nor did I ever state that gay=idiot. Still, given everything, unless I'm 110% supportive, I'm still as good as being 100% against them which I'm not.

I'm gonna retire from this conversation for now. Sorry for everyone who considers what I've written outrageous and offensive but I swear I am not a homophobic person and therefore I don't think I need to consult any psychiatrist to be cured from my pc-deficiency disorder.
----
Go ahead, make my day...
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18605
From: Canada

  11.01.2012 at 01:58
Written by Ernis on 11.01.2012 at 01:55
I'm gonna retire from this conversation for now. Sorry for everyone who considers what I've written outrageous and offensive but I swear I am not a homophobic person and therefore I don't think I need to consult any psychiatrist to be cured from my pc-deficiency disorder.

No need to do that. I mean, I disagree with your views... but whatevs. I think people won't think of you as supportive because you say you're 95% supportive but then say that gays don't make for ideal parents. That... that's like 90% un-supportive, really. No gay person would ever think of you as someone who supports them if you told them to their face that heteros make for better parents.
----
Prettier than BloodTears.
Angelic Storm
Melodious

Posts: 6656
From: UK

  11.01.2012 at 02:11
Written by Ernis on 11.01.2012 at 01:55
Not all As are Bs even though many Bs are As... I will say no more.


I really don't think women like me are in the minority. Statistically, there are far more straight women than those who are lesbian. And I'm sure many of those straight women have had bad experiences with men, but are still straight. Lesbians who only identify as that because of bad experiences with men definitely are in the minority. And I'd argue they are even within lesbianism.

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.01.2012 at 01:06
What views? Can't say I'd have a problem with them on a personal level. Nor did I ever state that gay=idiot. Still, given everything, unless I'm 110% supportive, I'm still as good as being 100% against them which I'm not.

I'm gonna retire from this conversation for now. Sorry for everyone who considers what I've written outrageous and offensive but I swear I am not a homophobic person and therefore I don't think I need to consult any psychiatrist to be cured from my pc-deficiency disorder.


Well, seeing as I am 100% supportive, then anything less than that is views that I wouldn't entirely agree with. Now, I'm not saying you have to be 100% supportive, simply that I don't agree with some of your opinions about gay people. That doesn't mean I'm saying you're homophobic, just that I have different views regarding some of your opinions on homosexuality. lol
Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6725

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  11.01.2012 at 02:12
Written by Troy Killjoy on 11.01.2012 at 01:58

That... that's like 90% un-supportive, really. No gay person would ever think of you as someone who supports them if you told them to their face that heteros make for better parents.

All right, 90's fine enough I guess. I couldn't decide between 90 and 95 but mayb 90 suits better. Cheers.

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.01.2012 at 02:11

That doesn't mean I'm saying you're homophobic, just that I have different views regarding some of your opinions on homosexuality. lol

That's grand. I'm glad we finally understand each other.
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Go ahead, make my day...

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