Written by IronAngel on 03.05.2023 at 22:01

Well, the question sort of presupposes there is an essential "nature" to humankind or individuals. There is not.

Don't you think humans are born with some innate traits that could be called "nature"? Genetics decide a lot, I don't think we're just blank slates... Not saying this "nature" necessarily is the same across all people but I do believe we are born with a bunch of stuff already written in us.

Written by Netzach on 05.05.2023 at 13:56

Don't you think humans are born with some innate traits that could be called "nature"? Genetics decide a lot, I don't think we're just blank slates... Not saying this "nature" necessarily is the same across all people but I do believe we are born with a bunch of stuff already written in us.

Obviously a big part of us is given, genetically or otherwise. How exactly that develops and manifests in an adult depends on a lot of factors. But is this really what is meant by "the nature of a man" or "human nature"? What's at stake in the question (and in Planescape: Torment) is the question of whether we can ever really change, or if we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes even under different circumstances, driven by some "true self." Pointing to genes doesn't really have much to say about this.

(And, to be honest, it's a pretty trivial question, even if it works to set the tone for a game: a lot of things can change someone, there's probably a lot of good empirical data on that, but it's difficult to say beforehand what would cause a profound and lasting change in any given person.)

I think it's undeniable that people do develop differently under difference circumstances and could easily go down very different paths. It's true that the same person can choose differently in different situations. But it's also true that there's often a tendency to default to similar behavioral patterns, dictated both by temperament (which is relatively stable from birth) and all the accumulated life history that shapes someone.

The "nature-discourse" assumes that this latter tendency is proof of "who you really are", the "nature of a man" showing through all the attemps to act differently. But is that just an unfounded bias? Looking at it from the outside, it seems to me people do all sorts of things, some of them consistent, some of them conflicted, from a complex and ever-changing network of causation by genetic and social, external and internal motives. Arbitrarily picking up some of those strands and declaring them "the nature of a man" doesn't seem justified or useful.

If I had to use the phrase "the nature of a man", I would have to say it's just what that person happens to be at that moment - a result of their genes and a lifetime and all that entails. It doesn't seem possible to isolate some distinct "nature" or who a person "really is" from that person as a whole.

Written by IronAngel on 05.05.2023 at 22:59

Obviously a big part of us is given, genetically or otherwise. How exactly that develops and manifests in an adult depends on a lot of factors. But is this really what is meant by "the nature of a man" or "human nature"? What's at stake in the question (and in Planescape: Torment) is the question of whether we can ever really change, or if we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes even under different circumstances, driven by some "true self." Pointing to genes doesn't really have much to say about this.

(And, to be honest, it's a pretty trivial question, even if it works to set the tone for a game: a lot of things can change someone, there's probably a lot of good empirical data on that, but it's difficult to say beforehand what would cause a profound and lasting change in any given person.)

I think it's undeniable that people do develop differently under difference circumstances and could easily go down very different paths. It's true that the same person can choose differently in different situations. But it's also true that there's often a tendency to default to similar behavioral patterns, dictated both by temperament (which is relatively stable from birth) and all the accumulated life history that shapes someone.

The "nature-discourse" assumes that this latter tendency is proof of "who you really are", the "nature of a man" showing through all the attemps to act differently. But is that just an unfounded bias? Looking at it from the outside, it seems to me people do all sorts of things, some of them consistent, some of them conflicted, from a complex and ever-changing network of causation by genetic and social, external and internal motives. Arbitrarily picking up some of those strands and declaring them "the nature of a man" doesn't seem justified or useful.

If I had to use the phrase "the nature of a man", I would have to say it's just what that person happens to be at that moment - a result of their genes and a lifetime and all that entails. It doesn't seem possible to isolate some distinct "nature" or who a person "really is" from that person as a whole.

That's a very thoughtful answer. Indeed, it can be hard to pinpoint what is meant by "the nature of a man", but if it is always changing, then the question remains, what is it that changes the nature of a man? Is it continuous experience? Regret? Knowledge? Respect? Experience? Love? All of these? You say that the nature of a man is what a person happens to be at the moment, so it follows that it is in constant flux, thus there must be at least one or several answers to the question as to what can change the nature of a man, since it is continuously changing.

I don't think it is a trivial question at all. The answer might be different for different people, but if we do believe in that the nature of a man is in constant flux, then there must be something behind that fosters this continual change. I don't either think we can "isolate" a "nature" from a person "as a whole", I think they both are equivalent. Who somebody is as a whole is their nature, if only for the current given moment. If this is liable to change, then there must be a cause and effect driving all this. The question remains, what is the cause of the effect of changing the nature of a man?

I'm not expecting any "true" answer to this question, and it might very well be so that "everything" can change one's nature, but that would be an answer in itself. The game does not either give a clear solution to this question, but leaves it open for the player to decide towards the very end, with no particular feedback whether it was the right choice or not.

If we can never truly change, then we are indeed doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over. I do not believe this is true, because I know from personal experience that change is very much possible. The question remains, what can change the nature of a man?

Good points covered and I agree with how Netz and Iron justified the causal behavioral factors that may change the "nature" of a man.

However, I feel strongly that the behavioral pattern has a lot developed in getting influenced from conventional psychological effects like cultural and societal, genetics(already covered above), life circumstances, and one being perceived on introspection and growth. It has a direct hit on the determination and motivation of keeping a reality check on the nature of a man.

Well, look at Darwin evolution theory, survival the fittest to change of the environment.

Written by Netzach on 05.05.2023 at 23:13

That's a very thoughtful answer. Indeed, it can be hard to pinpoint what is meant by "the nature of a man", but if it is always changing, then the question remains, what is it that changes the nature of a man? Is it continuous experience? Regret? Knowledge? Respect? Experience? Love? All of these? You say that the nature of a man is what a person happens to be at the moment, so it follows that it is in constant flux, thus there must be at least one or several answers to the question as to what can change the nature of a man, since it is continuously changing.

--

I'm not expecting any "true" answer to this question, and it might very well be so that "everything" can change one's nature, but that would be an answer in itself.

Well, my answer is not very exciting, but I think it's obviously true and so everyday: all of those things can change a person. Some of them more, some less, and not everyone equally. But it's ultimately an empirical question: we can study big cohorts of people and their life stories to see what kind of changes tend to stick and what drives them. We could find such studies in criminology, religious conversion studies, psychology, even health and fitness literature. I'm sure eating and sleeping better can change your life drastically, in many cases.

So even if we can safely say "Yes" to all your above examples, that seems almost trivially true: surely, we can be certain we'll find at least some examples of all of those in the history of humankind, even without looking. A more thorough, informative answer would have to rely on research. Maybe some motives or strategies are likelier to cause lasting changes than others; maybe some traits are easier to change than others; maybe some people are especially strongly influenced by their formative childhood experiences (especially traumatic ones), while others are more flexible. But I don't think I can say much more than that from an armchair.

I don't want to exaggerate the metaphor of flux: we're not changing willy-nilly on a daily basis, on a fundamental level. The many things mentioned above, from genes to temperament which matures into a stable personality, from upbringing and the social scripts we act out, are often pretty stable. I think we can usefully refer to things like someone's temperament, personality, his specific diagnoses or patterns of behaviour, his social roles, life histories etc. and assume that they're influencing his behaviour even when they're not readily apparent - a person isn't just the surface level "flux" of whatever he's doing right now.

But all (or most) of those things, even genes and how they manifest, can and do change. Not all of them, not all at once, but little by little. So there's no way to identify any one of them as the core of a person, so that at some point we could say, "Now he has changed his nature." That's another reason I don't want to talk about the "nature of a man": it sounds too grand for every small change, but too arbitrary to reserve it for specifc drastic changes, when it's all just a blurry continuum.

When i was young and small I dont understand how people are different, in their nature or characteristics, growing up I research about astrology, and numerology, In sum of all both astrology and science, and psychology, truly there is something inside us, with growing with environment surrounding, our inner, and experience with environment, there probably something inside us is gene, but we scientist have not succeeded discovering. I mean if you are born on Monday, and he is born in Tuesday, the temperature different in such two days can even affect our personality, and gene from parents, etc,... you know the earth is one among the star, human little creature acutally not rule the earth, nature still own us and we are still on discovering, i mean if just change in natural can affect us. I mean we are something from universe, God or law of God, or law of universe,.. something we havent reach finding out yet.

Dear Metalstorm country, dear Metalstorm govenrment, dear Metalstorm authority, dear Metalstorm staff, dear Metalstorm citizens, dear Metalstorm members, I'm so sorry that I have trolled Metalstorm for fun without thinking that led me to 200 or 300 days banned, I don remember exactly. I would like to write these for apologizing because I truly love Metalstorm a lot. Metalstorm is very dear to me because I have been with the site since im 15, now coming november I'll be 37, so 22 years with Metalstorm will be no waste. And probable I'll be with the site more years sure. Because Metalstorm is only the human contact I have with since 15 years ago. I truly live the metal music lyrics philosophy that makes me damn strong. Im so sorry and regrets when said I hated metal. No I dont hate metal, just a bit bored with the sound of distirtion guitar, and one thing, metal insitgated me stabbed one person. You know life in nam is hard. Anyway no I have comeback with metal music. Spotify can be greatest music software I dont know other good stuff like that. Now I only listen with spotify good metal songs with lyrics reading while on music. Its awesome, now I only listen with good lyrics bands. Will share with guys more in the future. Anyway, I surf Metalstorm daily, why not someday becoming Metalstaff or working with Metalstorm if good pays ha!.ok have a good days guys. And check my question below. Help me understand it.

Help understand this quote of Stephen Hawking:
"The initial configuration of the universe may have been chosen by God, or it may itself have been determined by the laws of science. In either case, it would seem that everything in the universe would then be determined by evolution according to the laws of science, so it is difficult to see how we can be masters of our fate."

Dear Finnish Scholar Iron Angel, phd Karlabos, Bad English Edgar, and all other Metalstormers, Metalstorm citizens, does that quote means we human are not master of our fate. That means universe determine our life,our fate right ? The law of physics law of evolution, law of science determine our fate, right ?. Thanks guys help me. Help me pls have a good day.