In The Depths Of Black Twilight: Exploring Crepusculo Negro


Written by: Apothecary
Published: 07.01.2018


The feathered serpent beckons.

For a long time, a common thematic feature within black metal was a focus on the history and cultural practices of ages past. The present, modern era of humankind being seen as empty, artificial, and devoid of significant meaning, black metal musicians tended to take to looking backwards for answers, often to pre industrial (and more specifically, pre-Christian) civilizations. Due to black metal originating in Europe, and being defined as a legitimate sub-branch of metal with the rise of the Norwegian scene in the 90s, this idea first emerged in the form of bands exploring Norse history and mythology. Bathory, Burzum, and Enslaved were some early examples, and many more would follow. Even today in 2017, this more or less remains the primary way in which this exploration and veneration of ancient civilizations within black metal manifests itself.

Understandably so, the early Scandinavian black metal bands were undoubtedly exploring Norse mythology because, put simply, it was the heritage to which they were born. In more recent black metal history, an interesting new twist on this principle has risen in the form of Crepusculo Negro. Emerging in the mid 2000s in Southern California under the leadership of Eduardo "Volahn" Ramirez, the "Black Twilight Circle" (BTC) would become a mysterious black metal collective centered around, above all else, themes of Mayan history and mythology. But despite sharing common themes, time would show that the bands of Crepusculo Negro would come to display quite a remarkable diversity of sound and songwriting techniques between them, with no two really sounding too much alike, and the alliance as a whole continues to display a commendable degree of variation between its members.

Mini reviews of most (but likely not all) of the bands currently involved in Crepusculo Negro will follow. Giving each one a peek comes as highly recommended. Since most of them do have relatively small discographies at the moment, investigating each shouldn't come as too big a commitment either.








ACUALLI

While you'll find a lot of interesting takes on melody and ambiance among some of the Crepusculo Negro bands, this isn't really the case with Acualli, who go for a rawer, more bestial type of approach, a vile fusion of the more ferocious aspects of black and death metal. It's not too far off to say that this is the "war metal" band of BTC. While often pulverizing you with frantic, uptempo riffs and blast beats, the music can make some surprising shifts as well, occasionally going into slower, more midpaced territory and even tapping heavily into noise influences (see the final track of the Pact Of Possession demo). In Acualli, BTC "leader" Eduardo Ramirez handles guitar and drums as "Vahxak," vocals are done by Daniel Tia ("Kampilan"), and bass responsibilities fall upon Acatlan Coatlicue ("Eztli"). Coatlicue is also notable for being the first female member of Crepusculo Negro.

*Dive into Pact Of Possession here




ARIZMENDA





With five full releases, an EP, and appearances on two compilations, at present Arizmenda stands as the most prolific BTC member. One of the few bands in the collective that doesn't feature Ramirez, this deranged, mindbending beast is the brainchild of Juan "Murdunbad" Cabello, who takes care of all vocal and instrumental conjurings. Though each release from Arizmenda has seen a slightly different approach employed, thus far the band has more or less employed an incredibly hypnotic brand of psychedelic black metal. Not "psychedelic" in a bright, bouncy, jammy type sense, but more embracing of the darker, abysmal brands of psychedelia. The music of Arizmenda is like a swirling, primordial vortex, replete with puzzling, nontraditional riffs that seem to snake in and out of one another, impressive drum work, eerie melodies, and soul sucking shrieks from Cabello. Curiously enough, Arizmenda is also distinct within Crepusculo Negro for being one of (if not) the only bands to not take to Mayan mythology as a lyrical theme, instead seeming to investigate topics of pain, suffering, and general mental instability. Even so, given his prolific output with Arizmenda as well as his involvement in several other BTC bands, Cabello's significance for the collective as a whole cannot be overstated.

*Every release is rock solid, but there's no harm in starting with the superb debut, Within The Vacuum Of Infinity.




AXEMAN





Now here's one Crepusculo Negro band that I definitely need more of. Axeman is essentially Ramirez's take on blackened thrash metal, and boy does it stick. As with Volahn, here he's responsible for everything, cranking out a sound reminiscent of the early days of extreme metal in the 80s and early 90s, with nods to bands like Possessed, Slayer, Celtic Frost, Absu, and others. It's extremely crunchy, riff heavy, and hard hitting, but somehow, even with its more retro, familiar feel, it still retains Ramirez's signature sense of dark, dreamlike melody in little atmospheric breaks and the guitar solos. A total banger of a project that hits like a brick in the face and seriously needs to deliver some more material in the near future.

Go get floored by Arrive right over here.




BLUE HUMMINGBIRD ON THE LEFT

Well that's an interesting name for a band, now isn't it? In keeping up with the ancient Mexico themes of Crepusculo Negro, "Blue Hummingbird On The Left" is the literal translation of the name of the Aztec god Huitzilopochtli. An interesting technique I've come to enjoy in metal is when bands go for a very raw, stripped down approach, yet include just one nonmetal instrument to shake things up a bit. This is the case with Blue Hummingbird On The Left, who play a form of black metal that really isn't all that nuanced or layered, but that features the occasional use of some sort of wind flute to create a more epic, transcendent vibe. The music, however, remains rather rough and abrasive throughout, and could use some softer moments to help to accentuate this mood. Admittedly Blue Hummingbird On The Left come across as one of the more uninteresting bands of Crepusculo Negro, but given the quality of the others they're up against as well as their limited amount of material at present, this might not be saying all that much. There's certainly much potential for them to grow and refine their formula in the future.

Give Bloodflower a listen here.




KALLATHON

Musically, Kallathon produce black metal of a rather raw, gritty variety, not too unlike Blue Hummingbird On The Left, but with a greater sense of melody and tempo variation. There's a good sense of atmosphere here, not quite of the caliber of bands like Arizmenda or Volahn, but still in the sense of there being some sort of higher, ethereal force bubbling beneath the surface of the music that helps to make it more powerful and ensnaring. The slower, more midtempo movements from Kallathon actually come across as quite relaxing in their minimalism and almost uplifting approach. Once again, this is another band on the Crepusculo Negro roster that sees the involvement of Eduardo Ramirez, but here he takes a more minimal role of just playing drums, while the eponymous Michael "Kallathon" Prado handles everything else. The only real complaint with Kallathon is the sense of production, which is a little too resemblant to early black metal techniques for my tastes. There's nothing inherently wrong with raw and gritty of course, but listening their music you kind of get the sense that there's a lot of layering going on with Kallathon, so a cleaner production would be ideal to really hear all aspects of the composition a little better.

Have a taste of Before Drifting Into The Abyss right here.




KUXAN SUUM





Along with Axeman, Kuxan Suum are probably the Crepusculo Negro band that I most want to see a full length debut from in the near future, as their formula is incredibly interesting. It is black metal, but delivered in a very formless, atmospheric style that for the most part sticks to a slower, more meditative mood and doesn't really seem to be in much of a rush to get to any sort of energetic climax or frenetic burst of aggression. There are some definite influences from doom metal and drone to their sound, although blurred together with the black metal so effectively that it really becomes difficult to determine where the lines between them are drawn. This band features both Ramirez and Juan Cabello from Arizmenda, and listening to the music, it's easy to see how both of their approaches combine here into truly magnificent results. Kuxan Suum also occasionally employ the use of folk instruments such as flute and (from what it sounds like) native percussion, to great, trancelike effect. Seriously, this is a considerably overlooked BTC band and one that we definitely need more of.

Dive into Kinich Ahau.




MUKNAL

Also a Maya-related reference, the name "Muknal" is derived from Actún Tunichil Muknal, a Mayan archaeological cave site in Belize known for housing human sacrificial remains as well as peculiar crystal formations. Upon first impression, the music of Muknal, like Acualli, sounds quite ferocious and bestial, albeit a tad less abrasive and with a bit of a different guitar tone. At times it might slow down, but in doing so it becomes more painful and crushing, and embellished by strange electronic and other atmospheric effects lurking in the background. It's basically something that sits in between Acualli and Blue Hummingbird On The Left, but with a greater sense of melody and nuance. Not necessarily my favorite of the Crepusculo Negro bands, but still definitely a good listen.

Check out the self titled demo here.




SHATAAN





With luck, Shataan will end up becoming of the more prolific bands of Crepusculo Negro. There is certainly hope here, as in 2016 they dropped their full length debut, Weigh Of The Wolf, the first band in the collective other than Volahn and Arizmenda to have done so. Shataan are a strong testament to the diversity of the Black Twilight Circle, as the sound they conjure is entirely their own. Here Eduardo Ramirez plays bass, but the band is really the brainchild of its eponymous front man Joseph "Shataan" Alanouf, who contributes vocals, guitar, and flute. Shataan conjure a more relaxed, transcendental type black metal sound boosted by the flute, acoustic guitar passages, and, oddly enough, the vocals of of Shataan himself, who rather than going for traditional black metal shrieks instead opts for a clean delivery. I've seen many negative comments on the music due to the vocals, which certainly aren't for everybody, as not only are they quite wail-y, but it's not often that clean vocals are set on top of black metal to begin with. I happen to love the approach, however, and it combined with a very tight sense of songwriting help to make Shataan one of the more interesting of the BTC bands.

Give Weigh Of The Wolf a spin.




VOLAHN





Finally, we come to the "main" band of Crepusculo Negro, the one that Eduardo Ramirez started first and that which more or less receives his primary focus: Volahn. Even with many more bands being added to the Black Twilight Circle since Volahn's initiation, this project has, over the years, still very much maintained its own signature sound that differentiates itself from all of them. The black metal of Volahn features a very distinct guitar tone, ripe with treble, that you don't really hear with any of the other BTC bands. There's also a strong penchant for melody here, not in the vein of traditional "melodic black metal," but more in the sense that there are just a lot of well written, bouncy, and catchy riffs that easily get stuck in your head and transition into each other incredibly well. The mood this sense of melody conjures is often dripping with Latin influence and at times almost sounds "Western" in a way. All this and more helps to make Volahn one of the strongest bands of Crepusculo Negro, and if this project is sort of the unofficial "leader" of the collective, it's not without good reason.

Aq'Ab'Al from 2015 was a phenomenal release and undoubtedly one of the best for black metal from that year. Plunge into it.




Particularly within the past 5 - 6 years, since the emergence of more of its younger members, Crepusculo Negro has evolved into a powerful, multifaceted, though still veiled and secretive collective. The process has been slow and steady, with more bands performing live, more merchandise being made, and more music being released from each member. It's a little disappointing that the majority of the bands involved have only released demos and EPs, but this may be inevitable in a way. Due to the involvement of Eduardo Ramirez in almost all of them, perhaps he really just doesn't have enough time as he'd like. One can only hope that eventually, as did Shataan did in 2016, other bands will debut some proper full lengths of their own.

One can always get a brief idea of each of the Crepusculo Negro band by checking out the massive Tliltic Tlapoyauak as well, a compilation album where each band (including some both not mentioned here as well as others who are no longer members) contributed a single track. It's convenient if you're short on time, but for a better, fuller understanding of the bands, investigating the releases linked to here is recommended. It is hoped that this article will spark interest in doing so, thus shedding more light on the unique and consistently impressive machinations of this fascinating group.







 



Written on 07.01.2018 by Comforting the disturbed and disturbing the comfortable since 2013.


Comments page 2 / 2

Comments: 56   Visited by: 79 users
14.01.2018 - 20:51
Mr. Doctor
Skandino
Written by Karlabos on 14.01.2018 at 19:09

Albeit some are more dangerous than others, nationalism, nazism and patriotism are all equally dumb.
"Duh, I'm so proud I was born in this particular piece of land and not on that other one"

Not seeing any of the bands in the BTC doing anything close to this.

There is a dire need of getting a proper grasp of what "celebrating your culture" means.
Granted, I'm not a particular supporter of nationalism, nazism or patriotism as I do not give a shit about it... But that's not what any of the bands in the Black Twillight Circle are doing in the first place. Would you honestly call Amon Amarth a nationalist band? Of course not. You are not stupid. This is the same fucking concept of writing about the culture and mythology aspects you were born with. Just because I do not give a fuck about most of my culture does not mean I can call bullshit and accuse of extremism on those who actually like the culture they were born with as long as they are not promoting a negative opinion on other cultures.

I honestly think some of you are reading WAY too much into things
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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14.01.2018 - 20:59
Apothecary
PsyCHEdelic
Written by Vombatus on 14.01.2018 at 20:27

Also, quick comment about nationalism. Even if I don't give a shit about my "country" or any State, the concept of nationalism goes way beyond "being proud of being born on a piece of land" or having ties with racism or xenphobia. Sometimes those don't even play a role in nationalism. It is a much larger idea that involves cultural identity, social organization or the formation of a political entity under a State. It can be about almost any fucking thing you can possibly imagine, since 18th or 19th century humans have had way to much free time to come up with bullshit ideas to push such concepts. It does rely on the foundation of certain ideas such as land, language, sovereignty, etc...which show up more frequently than others but it really depends, and I personally think it doesn't have to mandatorily be something negative (even if I don't support any form, anyway). Playing devil's advocate

Thank you for this much needed elaboration. Some indeed do seem to be dismissing the fact that, as you're saying, nationalism ultimately falls on a spectrum. That espoused by the BTC bands is a FAR cry from that of some other so called NSBM bands out there.
----
This is this the water, and this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark within
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14.01.2018 - 22:50
DeliciousDishes
Written by Apothecary on 14.01.2018 at 20:17

There is a distinction to be made here that I think some people commenting aren't grasping. The nationalism of oppressed, colonized people is a reaction to the imperialism and nationalist dickswinging imposed upon them for centuries by foreign powers. Why would one not develop feelings of national pride and a distrust/hatred of outsiders when said outsiders established such a long, violent track record of genocide, enslavement, and cultural cleansing of the nationalities in question?

This is why I would never lump the BTC bands in with NSBM. The nationalism of NS bands is about maintaining the racist, self righteous ideology that led to the persecution of the communities BTC venerates in the first place. BTC's nationalism is a reaction to such ideology that is more about defending it and preserving its authenticity than anything else.

Of course that kind of nationalism is a reaction to white imperialism, but we need to keep in mind that every form of nationalism is only strong if people aren't well off. Be it under Rome, Napoleon, or financial stress. Yes, it's different considering there is a lack of racial supression for white nationalists and most of their perceived problems are just that, perceived and not real or significant.
Still it kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth, especially considering Mexico has a history of fighting imperialism without resorting to traditional nationalism (see the zapatistas and other people living in chiapas nowadays for example - they also have some strong Maya ties so it's a bit weird BHL don't go in favour of them).
But let's not blow this discussion out of proportion. When we look at black metal there are much bigger fish to fry when it comes to shitty people one feels bad for supporting.

And it's not like BTC makes it easy to support them anyways lol.
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14.01.2018 - 22:58
DeliciousDishes
Written by Mr. Doctor on 14.01.2018 at 20:31

I'm honestly perplexed at how you guys even came up to that comparison. Probably because I can actually read the lyrics.

Yeah I guess that's a big part. Just seeing BHL imagery (eagles and some peculiar crosses that to me just scream mexicanized nazi-imagery) and "mexican nationalism" listed on metal-archives raises some bright red flags on its own. If the lyrics provide better context or are not outright racist then I guess.
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14.01.2018 - 23:06
DeliciousDishes
Written by Vombatus on 14.01.2018 at 20:27

Also, quick comment about nationalism. Even if I don't give a shit about my "country" or any State, the concept of nationalism goes way beyond "being proud of being born on a piece of land" or having ties with racism or xenphobia. Sometimes those don't even play a role in nationalism.
it is a much larger idea that involves cultural identity, social organization or the formation of a political entity under a State. It can be about almost any fucking thing you can possibly imagine, since 18th or 19th century humans have had way to much free time to come up with bullshit ideas to push such concepts. It does rely on the foundation of certain ideas such as land, language, sovereignty, etc...which show up more frequently than others but it really depends, and I personally think it doesn't have to mandatorily be something negative (even if I don't support any form, anyway). Playing devil's advocate

nationalism is always a form of tribalism though. "We are similar and need to hold together". No matter if a "against the evil foreigners!" is added, making it clearly xenophobic, there still is a problem here. Why should someone outside that group not be treated the same? Nationalism always requires different treatment of people inside and outside the nation, be it because of hate of others or not. I think we're beyond the "we're trying to solve our own problems first" period by now imo.
Just my 2 cents.

And yes I will stop my spamming now.
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14.01.2018 - 23:09
Karlabos
Weirdo of MS
Sorry guys but I still think nationalism sucks
It doesn't really matter how awesomely the country independence was obtained or how interesting the culture and tradition are. You can't just be proud of it. Interested... Sure. But proud? For something you didn't take part on? It doesn't make any sense.
Your grandfather can be proud for taking parts on history but you cannot be proud... You weren't even born!
People can't expect to be proud for something they never did

That being said I dont really care about the lyrics. Of course I like a lot of these guys since they have an interesting sound. Especially BHotL for that weird flute thing. Too bad they only have one album...
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2016
2017
2018
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14.01.2018 - 23:15
Apothecary
PsyCHEdelic
Written by DeliciousDishes on 14.01.2018 at 23:06

Nationalism is always a form of tribalism though. "We are similar and need to hold together". No matter if a "against the evil foreigners!" is added, making it clearly xenophobic, there still is a problem here. Why should someone outside that group not be treated the same? Nationalism always requires different treatment of people inside and outside the nation, be it because of hate of others or not. I think we're beyond the "we're trying to solve our own problems first" period by now imo.
Just my 2 cents.

You raise fair points, but again, I think you're underestimating the long history of plight by foreigners that these communities have experienced and how that factors into that mistrust/hatred of foreigners. That is basically my answer to the "why should someone outside that group not be treated the same?".... to many colonized peoples who develop nationalistic tendencies, such outsiders are not deserving of that equal treatment, because history has shown them to be undeserving.

I'm not necessarily saying it's right, just that it's understandable where that mistrust of the outsider comes from after the historical trend has been set that says to those people "when we lower our guard to the outside world, we get screwed over"
----
This is this the water, and this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark within
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14.01.2018 - 23:22
Apothecary
PsyCHEdelic
Written by Karlabos on 14.01.2018 at 23:09

Sorry guys but I still think nationalism sucks
It does't really matter how awesomely the country independence was obtained or how interesting the culture and tradition are. You can't just be proud of it. Interested... Sure. But proud? For something you didn't take part on? It doesn't make any sense. Your grandfather can be proud for taking parts on history but you cannot be proud... You weren't even born! People can't expect to be proud for something they never did

I believe "happy" would be a better word than "proud" here. Throwing it out there, I'm deeply invested in my Lebanese heritage and am happy that it's serving as a motivator for me to not only further pursue my studies of the country and its history professionally as a teacher, but also to master Arabic as a means of making said studies easier. I admire and respect the culture and its history a lot, and I am happy to have been born into it.

And, quite frankly, I don't really understand how people can go about living in the opposite mindset. Disliking one's heritage, being ashamed of it, trying to deny it, etc.... how does that make anyone anything but miserable? Let me stress that I'm not saying you do, but I prefer not to live in that state of self loathing.
----
This is this the water, and this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark within
Loading...
14.01.2018 - 23:47
Mr. Doctor
Skandino
Written by DeliciousDishes on 14.01.2018 at 22:58

Written by Mr. Doctor on 14.01.2018 at 20:31

I'm honestly perplexed at how you guys even came up to that comparison. Probably because I can actually read the lyrics.

Yeah I guess that's a big part. Just seeing BHL imagery (eagles and some peculiar crosses that to me just scream mexicanized nazi-imagery) and "mexican nationalism" listed on metal-archives raises some bright red flags on its own. If the lyrics provide better context or are not outright racist then I guess.

"I guess that's a big part"? "I guess"? It's the main part! Ever heard of "assume makes an ass of you and me"? People don't even care of research anymore. I understand how some flags might be raised with the word nationalism but if you stop there and don't even bother to find translations and context within the history of south american empires and their contact with Europe... Then... Well, I don't have much to discuss with you! (that's ok though, I can't possibly blame you for not knowing spanish)

I guess I'll just roll up my sleeves:

Under The symbol of the sun

Children of the sun, the moon and the stars.
Born of the ingrained corn of this soil
Divided by white borders and false definitions
Divided and faced against our own race

Children of rape, genocide and subjugation
Born from the same battle, against the same oposition
United from our elder fathers' bloodloss
United by the hatred shared against our occupant and oppressor

We build up to attack with blood as equal
For our ancestral blood, till the end we must fight
Fight for our existence

Only by the means of sacrifice and the means of bloodletting
We can achieve the unification of the indigenous races
Under the symbol of the sun

Roots can become strong
But inbetween foreign weeds they will drown

Warrior brothers from the north and south
Our time is about to dawn
Stand up and preprare for the war without end
Do not fear the loss of life
As the life of a warrior is inmortal

Sacrifice yourself in the flames of war.
__

Yeah that's a translation to a BHL song I just made for you guys. With love and twinkies. I chosed this song in particular because from all the lyrics I read from BHL, this one is "the most political" if you want to see it like that... Everything else is basically pure Mayan/Aztec mythology.
Now, just before someone starts slamming "HAH, this is totally vilolent NS shit" on their keyboards... I would like to remind people that Most of this text is a direct reference to how things went down as the colonization of Latin America began. The first paragraph acknowledges the political turmoil that was present with the arrival of the colonists since it catapulted into civil wars inbetween the different clans and communities that build up the Mayan and Aztec Empire. All this due to the fact that there were all kinds of opinions regarding how they should view the colonists.

It goes on commenting on how, just like Africa, South American tribues got their asses horribly handed to them by colonists. It has obviosly been less documented than with Africa but certainly as brutal of a treatment with many tribes and cultures completely erased and this is true for most countries in South America. It makes sense to think of these cultures as just fighting for their existence and this is something very real even to this day as indigenous tribes are still treated like shit and moved out of their homeland even in my home country Chile. Human sacrifices and bloodletting were actual beliefs held by many indigenous cultures of south america so it makes sense that these terms revolve around the lyrics of bands in the BTC. Also the mention of "unification of the indigenous races" could be seen by some as a reference to Bolivarianism (see Simon Bolivar, who played an important role in making many south american countries as independent states instead of spanish colonies) and the idea of an unified latin america which is not a weird idea if you compare it to EU... and without mentioning how virtually all the countries n South america suffered from the acts of the same type of colonists. It's a political idea that has been around for many years now.

At the end of the day... To me the lyrics make sense when you see them through the eyes of a bruised, beat-up culture that can be translated to present day if you want to mention the corporal private machinery that devastes the land and the people with most of the owners being from completely other parts of the globe. The lyrics read the same ways as your classic battle cry in films like let's say Braveheart. It's basically the same shit and I sure as hell wouldn't call that movie NS hahaha.

Do not worry, the irony of mentioning Braveheart (and indirectly the nutjob that is Mel Gibson) is NOT lost in me.

In any case... I do respect the way people may prematurely react to the indigenous imagery used by some of the BTC bands. I'm just happy to be able to give my two cents on the subject.
Cheers, amigos. Go blast some Volahn now.

Regarding pride... I'll echo Che's thoughts on it. You can be happy for your heritage. Even my messiah George Carlin said it: "Be happy, but not proud. Pride goes before a fal". I personally see these sorts of bands as celebrating their heritage and nothing else.
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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14.01.2018 - 23:53
Vombatus
Potorro
Written by DeliciousDishes on 14.01.2018 at 22:58

Yeah I guess that's a big part. Just seeing BHL imagery (eagles and some peculiar crosses that to me just scream mexicanized nazi-imagery) and "mexican nationalism" listed on metal-archives raises some bright red flags on its own. If the lyrics provide better context or are not outright racist then I guess.


Eagles are a distinct part of the Aztec empire (foundation of Tenochtitlan), so BHL can put all the imperial eagles and crosses they want and it shouldn't raise flags for anyone because 1325 was waaaaay before 1933, so NS still had CENTURIES to wait before it became an ideology. Zero controversy here, no possible excuses.
I think one the problems is that NS assimilated many symbols that some people nowadays will associate to NS and nothing else, ignoring their initial meaning and making no effort to understand that using such symbols in a non-related way is possible (Bölzer controversy comes to mind, to mention a recent one....).

Quote:
nationalism is always a form of tribalism though. "We are similar and need to hold together". No matter if a "against the evil foreigners!" is added, making it clearly xenophobic, there still is a problem here. Why should someone outside that group not be treated the same? Nationalism always requires different treatment of people inside and outside the nation, be it because of hate of others or not. I think we're beyond the "we're trying to solve our own problems first" period by now imo.


Not every form of nationalism is xenophobic. Nationalism that seeks recognition of a State, like it was often the case in XIXth century Europe, do not always have a component of "we against the others" as it is already developed within an existing single group. Sure it has a context of political dispute and conflict between two sides, but did not require a different treatment between those that were part of a group. As an example that I'm a bit familiar with, Andalusian nationalism (or any Spanish one, which are quite a few) don't have an inherent xenophobic component to the point of prohibiting or distinguishing between the origin of the members, as it is not the objective and exists within a same group of people.

My point being that absolutes do not exist, and even if I don't give a shit about nationalism, everything should be measured within context and not resorting to amalgams.
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15.01.2018 - 15:51
Apothecary
PsyCHEdelic
Written by Mr. Doctor on 14.01.2018 at 23:47

Badass Mexica lyrics

That was beautiful, Rod. Just beautiful
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This is this the water, and this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark within
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15.01.2018 - 17:11
DeliciousDishes
Written by Mr. Doctor on 14.01.2018 at 23:47

"I guess that's a big part"? "I guess"? It's the main part! Ever heard of "assume makes an ass of you and me"? People don't even care of research anymore. I understand how some flags might be raised with the word nationalism but if you stop there and don't even bother to find translations and context within the history of south american empires and their contact with Europe... Then... Well, I don't have much to discuss with you! (that's ok though, I can't possibly blame you for not knowing spanish)

A band can support terrible ideas without their lyrics and seeing swastikas tells me everything I need to know, sorry. They've also never used an eagle without a swastika variant as far as I can tell.
Again, I never deny any of this. Imperialism has fucked the americas, south east asia and africa. But that should exactly not lead them to nationalism (as they have seen what bullshit it creates), but to other movements. Like the actual people helping Maya in Mexico for example, who are not nationalists. Quite the opposite in fact.
Nationalism is never the answer to being subdued by imperialism. Others have realised this, especially in south and middle america. Thus I don't even have slight tolerance of third world nationalists. They're the same scum with the same goals as first or second world nationalists. Just because I can see their reasoning as slightly more rational doesn't mean it's still dumb and they should know better.

Written by Vombatus on 14.01.2018 at 23:53

Eagles are a distinct part of the Aztec empire (foundation of Tenochtitlan), so BHL can put all the imperial eagles and crosses they want and it shouldn't raise flags for anyone because 1325 was waaaaay before 1933, so NS still had CENTURIES to wait before it became an ideology. Zero controversy here, no possible excuses.
[...]
Not every form of nationalism is xenophobic. Nationalism that seeks recognition of a State, like it was often the case in XIXth century Europe, do not always have a component of "we against the others" as it is already developed within an existing single group. Sure it has a context of political dispute and conflict between two sides, but did not require a different treatment between those that were part of a group. As an example that I'm a bit familiar with, Andalusian nationalism (or any Spanish one, which are quite a few) don't have an inherent xenophobic component to the point of prohibiting or distinguishing between the origin of the members, as it is not the objective and exists within a same group of

Nothing exists in a vacuum. If you fucking use swastikas and eagles together you know what you're doing, no excuses. And the way they use eagles makes them look more like German Reich eagles than aztec reliefs (again, always together with a swastica variant).

And you literally didn't read my comment it seems. Never said nationalism requires xenophobia (in fact I said it didn't), but it's always a form of tribalism. "Us compared to them" is literally the only point in nationalism. WE need to hold together. Not "we and other people as well". WE, because we are part of one nation.
If you're not focusing on the people of what you perceive as a nation, you're not a nationalist. I'm not talking xenophobic distinctions, I'm talking rights inside a nation. Every nation is always working in competition with others. People of different nations are not treated the same in any nation. That's just how it is.
Also to that spain comment: remember the civil war here. Wanting to band together to form a society is not the same as nationalism. In fact it doesn't require a lot of brain power to arrive at the opposite idea (which even makes way more sense, given how nations have also always suppressed other groups within them - again nationalists in the americas and Franco spain are great examples).


EDIT: also to the "nationalism is understandable against imperialism" point one more thing: Look at the middle east. That's what they've been doing and they were constantly fucking over their own people in the end (because there just are multiple ethnicities and cultures in a nation, you can't help that at this point without genocide). Which in turn enabled imperialist forces to arm rebels and to justify an invasion to their people again.
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15.01.2018 - 19:49
Mr. Doctor
Skandino
Written by DeliciousDishes on 15.01.2018 at 17:11
Post.

This is clearly a giant fart across all I wrote to you. Maybe I should have posted a TL;DR version saying "it's historical". You shouldn't say sorry either... You see what you want to see. And I'm okay with that. We clearly have reached a point when it's useless to continue. I will be clear on this though: If I didn't bother with translating and explaining key-points in old south america history you sure as hell wouldn't have cared searching on your own for what the band is trying to say. You wouldn't have bothered with interviews either and continue assuming. That doesn't seem to be your nature since you keep assuming. Not only do I view this as extremely pricky behaviour... but also lazy, which is even worse.

I don't view this as nationalism. You do. End of story.
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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15.01.2018 - 23:07
Apothecary
PsyCHEdelic
Written by DeliciousDishes on 15.01.2018 at 17:11

A band can support terrible ideas without their lyrics and seeing swastikas tells me everything I need to know, sorry. They've also never used an eagle without a swastika variant as far as I can tell..... Nothing exists in a vacuum. If you fucking use swastikas and eagles together you know what you're doing, no excuses. And the way they use eagles makes them look more like German Reich eagles than aztec reliefs (again, always together with a swastica variant).

This to me basically says "a band should refrain from using such imagery associated with Nazism even if the meaning isn't the same because of the imagery being misconstrued by the ignorant"

I'll say no to censoring artists' work just because of people too lazy to dig deeper into the thematic inspiration behind it, thank you.
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This is this the water, and this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark within
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15.01.2018 - 23:20
DeliciousDishes
Written by Apothecary on 15.01.2018 at 23:07

Written by DeliciousDishes on 15.01.2018 at 17:11

A band can support terrible ideas without their lyrics and seeing swastikas tells me everything I need to know, sorry. They've also never used an eagle without a swastika variant as far as I can tell..... Nothing exists in a vacuum. If you fucking use swastikas and eagles together you know what you're doing, no excuses. And the way they use eagles makes them look more like German Reich eagles than aztec reliefs (again, always together with a swastica variant).

This to me basically says "a band should refrain from using such imagery associated with Nazism even if the meaning isn't the same because of the imagery being misconstrued by the ignorant"

Fuck that noise.

Yeah sorry I don't buy that "isn't meant to be the same" nonsense. They are using this icon BECAUSE it's a nazi icon. Similarly to how fascists have always used traditional fascist imagery but a bit localized. Nothing new. They know what they're doing. They're not 3-year olds.

"No actually he was talking about white whine while sieg heiling, it was a joke!" <- the same level of sillyness.

Again, they are a small mexican band on a label where you can barely buy anything and black metal is full of other fascists so w/e. There are bigger problems, and black metal is sadly not remotely the biggest den of fascists nowadays so it doesn't really matter. But I'm seeing them as pieces of shit anyways.
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15.01.2018 - 23:37
Apothecary
PsyCHEdelic
Written by DeliciousDishes on 15.01.2018 at 23:20

They are using this icon BECAUSE it's a nazi icon.

Ever think they could be doing that for the sake of making a parody out of it, basically laughing at how ridiculous Nazism is and twisting it for their own purposes? No? Neither have I, until now, because I don't assume things about other people and what drives them before getting to know them through their writings or personal conversation.

I don't know, you almost talk as if you've been inside the artists' heads or something and are aware of every step that went behind the creative process. I could be wrong.
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This is this the water, and this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark within
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15.01.2018 - 23:58
DeliciousDishes
Written by Apothecary on 15.01.2018 at 23:37

Written by DeliciousDishes on 15.01.2018 at 23:20

They are using this icon BECAUSE it's a nazi icon.

Ever think they could be doing that for the sake of making a parody out of it, basically laughing at how ridiculous Nazism is and twisting it for their own purposes? No? Neither have I, until now, because I don't assume things about other people and what drives them before getting to know them through their writings or personal conversation.

I don't know, you almost talk as if you've been inside the artists' heads or something and are aware of every step that went behind the creative process. I could be wrong.

Nah I tend to assume what fascists want when they're incredibly obvious. Saved my life a couple of times. Would save a lot more lives if more people did it. Fascists are even rarely as obvious as this.

But I guess it's arrogant of me to say that. Next time at a Nazi rally I'm just gonna have fun with these guys. I mean don't want to assume anything, amirite? They just happen to have swastikas tattoo'd to their arms, maybe they're of indian descent and just want to celebrate their culture? And that they are just talking about race because of impirialism in their ancestors' home country of india! I's stuff only nazis do and nazis are all around, but who am I to judge right? I mean it's bullshit and needs crazy mind gymnastics to morally justify, but I guess.

I'm going to stop this now, since there's really no point I haven't already made by now and I hate these kinds of discussions, even if I'm too weak to resist them sometimes.
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16.01.2018 - 03:53
Vombatus
Potorro
Written by DeliciousDishes on 15.01.2018 at 17:11

Nothing exists in a vacuum. If you fucking use swastikas and eagles together you know what you're doing, no excuses. And the way they use eagles makes them look more like German Reich eagles than aztec reliefs (again, always together with a swastica variant).


Gonna have to quote you again, this is too funny not to answer.

You kind of reminds me of young candid VIG when he asked if Cult of Fire's outfits were related to the KKK.

So you have a band that might be:

A) Nazi: based on the usage of a symbol, which happens to have been used by dozens of cultures throughout history, not only by a certain group of people in Germany a few years ago that most people don't give a shit about and can live without them instead of being obsessed with their existence in the 21rst century.

B) Non-nazi: Bunch of Mexican guys that form a band based around the Patron God of their cultural heritage (Huitzilopochtli), with lyrics that only make a reference to mythology/deities, ancestral practices or cultural struggle, with imagery invoking the same thing all over again and concrete examples of that culture (Eagle/Jaguar Warriors, Human Sacrifices, a swatiska that represents astral stuff those people hold dear, etc...) that happens to predate any of the 20th century totalitarianism bullshit by a very long time, not to mention that Quetzalcoatl or the legend of Tenochtitlan are a big deal in that culture, which juuuuuuuust might oblige the band to use a goddamn eagle if they are going to make a reference to all the above mentioned and assume people aren't dumb enough to jump on the "it's a nazi!" bandwagon if they happen to use their brain, as there are no white-power/NS/bigot references anywhere to be found around the band.


So what do you think is more likely? Nazi or not?


Hint: it's not the first option

PS: Occam's Razor is quite useful sometimes. Try not to see everything through a paranoid conspiracy witch-hunting prism, it makes life easier and more pleasant.
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16.01.2018 - 07:59
Zaph
The Nothingth
Well, this great article has turned into another one of "those" threads. Too bad.
I never knew about Kuxan Suum but it sounds like I need to check them out.
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16.01.2018 - 10:21
RaduP
CertifiedHipster
Yeah we should just ban all folk metal bands




Nothing of value will be lost anyway
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Is it future of is it past?
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16.01.2018 - 13:35
Apothecary
PsyCHEdelic
Written by Zaph on 16.01.2018 at 07:59

Well, this great article has turned into another one of "those" threads. Too bad.
I never knew about Kuxan Suum but it sounds like I need to check them out.

It's whatever, I'm just glad the homie Rod came with that epic smackdown with those BHL lyrics

Yeah, definitely check out Kuxan Suum, like I said, with that one you really see how Ramirez and Cabello merge their sounds from Volahn and Arizmenda into each other. You still catching the BTC Euro tour by the way?
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This is this the water, and this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark within
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16.01.2018 - 15:00
VIG
Esoteric Zachism
Fuck, it seems I missed out on this article and thread. Gotta read through it later.
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16.01.2018 - 17:26
Zaph
The Nothingth
Written by Apothecary on 16.01.2018 at 13:35

It's whatever, I'm just glad the homie Rod came with that epic smackdown with those BHL lyrics

Haha yeah that was quite something indeed!
Quote:

Yeah, definitely check out Kuxan Suum, like I said, with that one you really see how Ramirez and Cabello merge their sounds from Volahn and Arizmenda into each other.

Ramirez and Cabello teaming up sounds interesting in and of itself but if it is as you say a blend of Volahn and Arizmenda then I just know I'm in for a treat...
Quote:

You still catching the BTC Euro tour by the way?

Most definitely. They're playing Brussels this Saturday so I'm getting pretty pumped (though I wish they'd have used a better tour organisation and booked a better venue but oh well, actually getting to see some BTC bands live is special enough as it is)
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16.01.2018 - 21:30
Maco
Handbanana
While it's true that the BTC has superior music than LLN, the only truly awesome bands they have are Arizmenda and Volahn only. The rest are just ok.
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I'm derp.
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Today - 00:12
Apothecary
PsyCHEdelic
Written by Maco on 16.01.2018 at 21:30

While it's true that the BTC has superior music than LLN, the only truly awesome bands they have are Arizmenda and Volahn only. The rest are just ok.

Personal foul, unnecessary roughness. 10 yard penalty.
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This is this the water, and this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark within
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Today - 12:28
Paz
News Man
Written by Maco on 16.01.2018 at 21:30

While it's true that the BTC has superior music than LLN, the only truly awesome bands they have are Arizmenda and Volahn only. The rest are just ok.

Muknal is amazing.. Their demo is in my absolute top when it comes to death metal. Even though it's only 17 minutes long.
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