Rating:
9.5
Iron Maiden - The Final Frontier
16 August 2010


01. Satellite 15... The Final Frontier
02. El Dorado
03. Mother Of Mercy
04. Coming Home
05. The Alchemist
06. Isle Of Avalon
07. Starblind
08. The Talisman
09. The Man Who Would Be King
10. When The Wild Wind Blows


It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream. I am by no means bitter; I'm guilty of this prejudice quite often. So, when I saw the album votes go the way they did for The Final Frontier I wasn't shocked. But, in all honesty, I thought this album was pretty hard! This is one of Maiden's most successful albums to date and for a damn good reason. While it does sound different from anything they've done before, that doesn't make it worse. Do you really want three albums that sound exactly like Brave New World?

I for one was happy that Iron Maiden isn't sticking to the same sound. Even though their old albums are timeless classics, masterpieces in metal, I respect them for not being afraid to keep an open mind and try something new. This album definitely has a progressive feel to it, it's complex and on first listen I may have agreed and given the album an 8. The first time through I only liked "Coming Home," "Starblind," and "When The Wild Wind Blows." However, the more I listened to it, the more the songs started to grab me. The songwriting is excellent, probably my favorite part about the album. Steve Harris's bleak yet exciting vision is painted in a masterful fashion. I was hanging on every lyric, yet the structures of the songs are so different than what I'm used to from Maiden, but still great. Dickinson's voice seems to have lowered for this album, but it's a decent change: he seems somewhere between his old self and Bailey in terms of pitch. The guitar work on the album is excellent as always from Murray, Smith and Gers. There are great riffs and solos throughout the whole album. Nicko McBrain is easily one of the best metal drummers ever and is epic as ever on this release. His love for the music shines through in everything he does on this piece.

Even though the tracks they chose to make into singles/videos were great, they weren't my favorite on the album. My favorites have to be "Starblind," "When The Wild Wind Blows," "Coming Home," and "Isle Of Avalon." These songs are awesome and are worth the price of the album alone.

I can understand how this album is not for everyone, just like all music is not for everyone, but I don't think it deserves a 7.5 overall rating. This album made me think of that post in the Funny Stuff section "101 Rules of being a Metal Stormer" Rule #26 Never like a band's new album and Rule #65 Every Iron Maiden Album deserves a 10. Rules in conflict in this case, and while I know it's cliché to love everything with Dickinson, I can't deny that this album was easily my favorite of 2010.

Performance: 10
Songwriting: 10
Originality: 9
Production: 9


Band profile: Iron Maiden
Album: The Final Frontier


 


written by Death To Posers | 18.01.2011


Guest review disclaimer:
This is a guest review, which means it does not necessarily represent the point of view of the MS Staff.

Staff review by
Daniell

Rating:
7.2
Iron Maiden have had ups and downs, but they consistently stuck to their unique style. 2006's A Matter of Life and Death saw a serious departure from that style towards a darker, more progressive sound - it was only a partial success. Unfortunately, Steve Harris and Co. felt encouraged, and decided to go further in their departures. The first 4 songs on The Final Frontier rank among the worst this band has ever committed and most of the time sound nothing like the Iron Maiden everyone knows. Departure from style my ass. If they wanted to depart again, the previous album was the way to do it.

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published 16.08.2010 | Comments (254)



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Vikcen - 18.01.2011 at 03:16  
Personally the albums "Dance Of Death" and "A Matter Of Life And Death" were disappointments... and when i finished to listen "The Final Frontier" i said, wow!, this is really good, for me a true welcome back.
Fat & Sassy! - 18.01.2011 at 03:51  
"Do you really want three albums that sound exactly like Brave New World?"

Yes. Yes, I do.

On a more serious note, I uh... don't think this album is too much different than their last three albums. In fact, it reminds me of Brave New World more than their last album... just a lot more boring.
JÄY - 18.01.2011 at 04:43  
Yeah, man...just gotta come in here and say that ratings seems, crazy to me. the craftsmanship on this is just not even close to perfect, like a 9.5 should be. But i know: opinions and all that stuff.
Also, gotta agree with fatty, A Matter is quite different from the 2 before it.
Susan - 18.01.2011 at 04:49  
Written by Fat & Sassy! on 18.01.2011 at 03:51

"Do you really want three albums that sound exactly like Brave New World?"

Yes. Yes, I do.



Heh, I was thinking the exactly same thing. Loved Brave New World

He makes a good point, though: bands need to evolve! Even the mighty Maiden. I love when my favourite bands evolve and hate it when other fans cry about them changing. I haven't heard The Final Frontier yet but after reading this review I think I need to suck it up and listen.
Death To Posers - 18.01.2011 at 06:34  
Written by Fat & Sassy! on 18.01.2011 at 03:51

"Do you really want three albums that sound exactly like Brave New World?"

Yes. Yes, I do.

On a more serious note, I uh... don't think this album is too much different than their last three albums. In fact, it reminds me of Brave New World more than their last album... just a lot more boring.


It reminds me of Brave New World in that it has a message in many of the songs, just like all of the releases since the reunion. I loved Brave New World as well, I was in no way implying it was a bad album. The Final Frontier does venture further than Brave new World, from what most Iron Maiden Fans are used to in my opinion. There are a lot of tracks that are surprising on this album that made a lot of people say "What The Fuck" but I respect them for doing something different and proving that they can do different styles successfully.
Angelic Storm - 18.01.2011 at 07:21  
Another hand going up here for being glad if they made another 2 albums like "Brave New World".

"A Matter Of Life And Death" was a very different album for Maiden, and I love that album. (aside from "The Greater Good Of God") For me, "The Final Frontier" suffers not because it is different, but because most of the songs feel long for their own sake, and sound pretty generic and lifeless. "Isle Of Avalon" is the only long, prog like track that I think completely works, and I love that song. Although "The Talisman" and "The Man Who Would be King" are also good songs. "Mother Of Mercy" is my fave on the album, with it's creeping, menacing vibe. "El Dorado" is also a good song which I enjoy. Most of the album just bores me though. Very little on it grabs me.

7.5 is not a bad rating by any stretch of the imagination, so I dunno why you'd have such a major problem with it being given that. A lot of people just happen to disagree with your opinion, thats all.
Death To Posers - 18.01.2011 at 10:09  
Written by Angelic Storm on 18.01.2011 at 07:21

Another hand going up here for being glad if they made another 2 albums like "Brave New World".

"A Matter Of Life And Death" was a very different album for Maiden, and I love that album. (aside from "The Greater Good Of God") For me, "The Final Frontier" suffers not because it is different, but because most of the songs feel long for their own sake, and sound pretty generic and lifeless. "Isle Of Avalon" is the only long, prog like track that I think completely works, and I love that song. Although "The Talisman" and "The Man Who Would be King" are also good songs. "Mother Of Mercy" is my fave on the album, with it's creeping, menacing vibe. "El Dorado" is also a good song which I enjoy. Most of the album just bores me though. Very little on it grabs me.

7.5 is not a bad rating by any stretch of the imagination, so I dunno why you'd have such a major problem with it being given that. A lot of people just happen to disagree with your opinion, thats all.


That's totally understandable. Music is very dependent on taste, what sounds great to someone may sound like complete shit to another. I know that 7.5 isn't bad on the scale of Metal Storm, it's actually between good and great right? The thing is everyone on this site loves Metal, so while supposedly 6 is an average album, the real average is probably like a 7 or 7.5 or something, I'm too lazy to do the math

Comparatively, The Final Frontier, The Final Frontier ranks at 186 out of 238 releases in 2010 with at least 20 votes, I get that people don't think it's a bad album, but it's one of the weaker Metal releases on 2010 according to most I guess.
GT - 18.01.2011 at 10:15  
A rating of 9.2 would suggest that this is one of Maiden's best albums, which it clearly isn't...and that's coming from a long time Maiden "fanboy". It has some really good songs and yes it continues on the path started by AMOLAD, but the songs just doesn't flow like they used to. And another thing: Bruce is getting older and so is his voice...he just can't pull of the high notes like he used to, so please take that into consideration when composing.

And a rating og 7.5 is really not a bad rating...5 is bad, 6 is average, and so on
vezzy - 18.01.2011 at 10:24  
Keeping an open mind to devolution, yeah.
Ellrohir - 18.01.2011 at 11:41  
According to me, this album is great...maybe not as great as other Maiden releases, but definitely something worth listening...and "When The Wild Wind Blows" is one of their best songs ever
Angelic Storm - 18.01.2011 at 13:36  
Written by Death To Posers on 18.01.2011 at 10:09
That's totally understandable. Music is very dependent on taste, what sounds great to someone may sound like complete shit to another. I know that 7.5 isn't bad on the scale of Metal Storm, it's actually between good and great right? The thing is everyone on this site loves Metal, so while supposedly 6 is an average album, the real average is probably like a 7 or 7.5 or something, I'm too lazy to do the math

Comparatively, The Final Frontier, The Final Frontier ranks at 186 out of 238 releases in 2010 with at least 20 votes, I get that people don't think it's a bad album, but it's one of the weaker Metal releases on 2010 according to most I guess.


Exactly! Its just a shame that so many people have trouble grasping that simple fact. 7.5 is a decent score in anyone's book, or at least its should be... Anything 4 and below is a bad-terrible album. 5 or 6 indicates averageness. Not terribly bad, but nothing particularly notable either. 7 or 8 means its good, certainly above average. Some good points, but also some negative ones which keep it from being great. 9 or 10 obviously means its a great album, or even a classic. Id be surprised if this isnt how it works for most people using the out of 10 scoring system.

Its certainly not a bad album, at least not to me it isn't. Its definitely a weak album by Maiden's standards, but its still better than some band's strongest efforts. Like all the other weaker Maiden albums, it has some great stand-out moments. But as a whole, it falls a bit short.
Daniell - 18.01.2011 at 14:23  
Quote:

Do you really want three albums that sound exactly like Brave New World?


No I don't. If they did sound exactly like BNW, I would be happy, because BNW was great. If these albums sounded completely different from BNW, but were great nevertheless, I would also be happy.

It doesn't matter to me AT ALL if a band's album is similar or completely dissimilar. All I care about is good music. TFF has surprisingly little good music, and the boredom factor is through the roof. I recently came back to TFF and gave it a few more listens. I would rate it even lower now.

This album is not evolution. It's withering atrophy.
nb - 18.01.2011 at 19:23  
I did really enjoy this album, after a few listens it becomes quite catchy.
Death To Posers - 18.01.2011 at 20:49  
Written by vezzy on 18.01.2011 at 10:24

Keeping an open mind to devolution, yeah.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I can agree with most that this isn't an evolution from Brave New World, but I wouldn't call it a devolution either. To me, it's a successful experiment while most of you found it not to be, that's all.
Vikcen - 18.01.2011 at 22:35  
Written by Death To Posers on 18.01.2011 at 20:49

To me, it's a successful experiment


I agree with that.
RavenKing - 19.01.2011 at 00:19  
Written by Angelic Storm on 18.01.2011 at 13:36

Exactly! Its just a shame that so many people have trouble grasping that simple fact. 7.5 is a decent score in anyone's book, or at least its should be... Anything 4 and below is a bad-terrible album. 5 or 6 indicates averageness. Not terribly bad, but nothing particularly notable either. 7 or 8 means its good, certainly above average. Some good points, but also some negative ones which keep it from being great. 9 or 10 obviously means its a great album, or even a classic. Id be surprised if this isnt how it works for most people using the out of 10 scoring system.


You forget that it's Maiden we're talking about here, so reasonable arguments and rationality don't work. So many people believe it deserves a rating of over 9, only because Iron Maiden is printed on the cover.
Ratings, reviews, argumentation, logic, etc etc... Nothing works as it would normally do when it concerns mainstream metal bands like Maiden. I mentioned already, on other threads, that it is impossible to deny how some bands (Maiden being the archetype of this phenomenon) are immensely overrated. You have one more example and proof here. Some bands are objectively overrated and no matter how many times some people will try to convince you that it's only a matter of opinion, it won't change anything to facts. And fact is Maiden is probably the most overrated metal band in the world nowadays.
RavenKing - 19.01.2011 at 00:22  
Written by vezzy on 18.01.2011 at 10:24

Keeping an open mind to devolution, yeah.


That's the right answer to give to anyone who would blame you for your 'close-mindedness' because you dare to voice out loud that you think Maiden suck nowadays.
jimmy - 19.01.2011 at 00:23  
Just cant seem to get into this album very much. it's good up through about track 5 and than it just gets long and boring. though 'el dorado' is a killer track
i actually like DANCE OF DEATH (an album i've been really getting into lately) better than this one. AMOLAD is better too.
the songs on this one are just too long and boring. i really wish they'd strip it down and stop having every song be 20 mins long. more songs like 'el dorado' and 'wildest dreams' would be better for a next album.
Angelic Storm - 19.01.2011 at 00:35  
Written by RavenKing on 19.01.2011 at 00:19
You forget that it's Maiden we're talking about here, so reasonable arguments and rationality don't work. So many people believe it deserves a rating of over 9, only because Iron Maiden is printed on the cover.
Ratings, reviews, argumentation, logic, etc etc... Nothing works as it would normally do when it concerns mainstream metal bands like Maiden. I mentioned already, on other threads, that it is impossible to deny how some bands (Maiden being the archetype of this phenomenon) are immensely overrated. You have one more example and proof here. Some bands are objectively overrated and no matter how many times some people will try to convince you that it's only a matter of opinion, it won't change anything to facts. And fact is Maiden is probably the most overrated metal band in the world nowadays.


Im not going to get into the overrated=fact/opinion debate again, because it just goes around in circles, and is tiresome. Ive stated my opinion on that already more than once, so it's pointless going over all that again. What I do agree with, is that for some people, they cannot accept that some people geniuinely dislike the album, or even like it, but dont rate it as highly as they think it should be. However, Ive seen this type of attitude displayed by fans of much smaller bands than Maiden, so its definitely not behaviour reserves for blind fanboys of mainstream bands. It probably just seems that way, because Maiden have much more fans than smaller bands, hence more fanboys. But Ive seen fans of even underground and extreme bands tearing into people purely for disliking an album/band they like, and refer to them as things like "posers" and "fags" for not liking it. The absurdity of the Diminished thread was a damning testament to that, which all stemmed from a reviewer giving that album a bad review. It was just shining a beacon on attitudes Ive seen displayed by many fans of more unknown, underground bands.

The whole problem here, whether it's Maiden, or another mainstream band, or even an underground band, some people just cannot take reviews (or different opinions) with the pinch of salt that they should be taken with. At the end of the day, it is only one person's opinion. And in my eyes, putting so much negative emphasis on a review that you dont agree with only makes it look like the reviewers' opinon is of more validity, and worth. If you really love an album, what anyone else says about it, shouldnt matter a jot. Saying you disagree with a score/review is all fine, but when you say it's "wrong", thats when you're getting to the realms of people with insecurities about their own opinons and tastes.
RavenKing - 19.01.2011 at 00:54  
@Angelic Storm: I agree that fanboyism and not being able to accept that some people dislike what you like is not exclusive to mainstream metal bands but it simply gets completely out of proportion when famous bands are involved. That's why it is much more annoying in the end.

It's as if there is the normal rule and a completely different rule as soon as famous bands are involved. Imo, most people loose their ability to judge reasonably when mainstream metal bands are involved.
Angelic Storm - 19.01.2011 at 01:07  
Written by RavenKing on 19.01.2011 at 00:54

@Angelic Storm: I agree that fanboyism and not being able to accept that some people dislike what you like is not exclusive to mainstream metal bands but it simply gets completely out of proportion when famous bands are involved. That's why it is much more annoying in the end.

It's as if there is the normal rule and a completely different rule as soon as famous bands are involved. Imo, most people loose their ability to judge reasonably when mainstream metal bands are involved.


It does get out of proportion, but like I said, I think that's mainly because mainstream metal bands have a huge number of fans, so you'll obviously see a bigger proportion of those attitudes displayed than with smaller bands. Which does make it more annoying. The actual fanboyism is no worse, but it seems worse because of the volume of those displaying the fanboyish attitudes.

I think the only real difference is, with some fanboys of bigger bands, they feel like because the band is so huge, that fact on its own means that they are (or in their eyes should be) immune to criticsm. And not just harsh criticsm, but criticsm of any kind. Which is why I have came under fire from some Maiden fanboys, despite the fact my criticsms of what I consider Maiden's weaker albums are nowhere near as harsh as a lot of other people's. I do agree totally with what you're saying. haha
RavenKing - 19.01.2011 at 01:56  
Written by Angelic Storm on 19.01.2011 at 01:07

Written by RavenKing on 19.01.2011 at 00:54

@Angelic Storm: I agree that fanboyism and not being able to accept that some people dislike what you like is not exclusive to mainstream metal bands but it simply gets completely out of proportion when famous bands are involved. That's why it is much more annoying in the end.

It's as if there is the normal rule and a completely different rule as soon as famous bands are involved. Imo, most people loose their ability to judge reasonably when mainstream metal bands are involved.


It does get out of proportion, but like I said, I think that's mainly because mainstream metal bands have a huge number of fans, so you'll obviously see a bigger proportion of those attitudes displayed than with smaller bands. Which does make it more annoying. The actual fanboyism is no worse, but it seems worse because of the volume of those displaying the fanboyish attitudes.

I think the only real difference is, with some fanboys of bigger bands, they feel like because the band is so huge, that fact on its own means that they are (or in their eyes should be) immune to criticsm. And not just harsh criticsm, but criticsm of any kind. Which is why I have came under fire from some Maiden fanboys, despite the fact my criticsms of what I consider Maiden's weaker albums are nowhere near as harsh as a lot of other people's. I do agree totally with what you're saying. haha


I pretty much agree, I think. But, from my point of view, it's not only a matter of mainstream bands having more fans (it plays a big role but doesn't explain everything). I see a certain level of indoctrination in all this. If you re-read your last paragraph carefully and think about it, maybe you will agree with me about this level of indoctrination. For some fans, it is simply impossible for famous bands to fail and they simply can't conceive that people can really think an album from x or y band sucks. As if the thought that "this band is perfect by definition and everything they do is awesome" has been embedded in their brain.
Death To Posers - 19.01.2011 at 04:02  
I will admit that I am an Iron Maiden Fan, I loved most of their albums and their music brings me back to my days I miss. I wouldn't call myself a "fanboy" because that seems to be in the same boat as a dick rider, which I am not. . There have been bands that I've been fans of, such as Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer (Although not a huge fan), Forbidden, Astral Doors, Exodus (in The 90's), Iced Earth etc. That have taken a turn for the worse and IMO made them not as great to listen to. This isn't one of those albums to me, Iron Maiden has released awesome music since Brave New World.
RavenKing - 19.01.2011 at 05:01  
Written by Death To Posers on 19.01.2011 at 04:02

I will admit that I am an Iron Maiden Fan, I loved most of their albums and their music brings me back to my days I miss. I wouldn't call myself a "fanboy" because that seems to be in the same boat as a dick rider, which I am not. . There have been bands that I've been fans of, such as Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer (Although not a huge fan), Forbidden, Astral Doors, Exodus (in The 90's), Iced Earth etc. That have taken a turn for the worse and IMO made them not as great to listen to. This isn't one of those albums to me, Iron Maiden has released awesome music since Brave New World.


I understand your point of view. However, if you ask me, Maiden belongs to all those bands who turned to crap, just like Metallica or Iced Earth. I still like Maiden's old stuff (not that I listen to it often but I can still enjoy it when I hear it) but I've never been able to like anything they have done after SSOASS.
And sorry but I think they released nothing worth listening to after that.
Death To Posers - 19.01.2011 at 05:10  
Written by RavenKing on 19.01.2011 at 05:01

Written by Death To Posers on 19.01.2011 at 04:02

I will admit that I am an Iron Maiden Fan, I loved most of their albums and their music brings me back to my days I miss. I wouldn't call myself a "fanboy" because that seems to be in the same boat as a dick rider, which I am not. . There have been bands that I've been fans of, such as Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer (Although not a huge fan), Forbidden, Astral Doors, Exodus (in The 90's), Iced Earth etc. That have taken a turn for the worse and IMO made them not as great to listen to. This isn't one of those albums to me, Iron Maiden has released awesome music since Brave New World.


I understand your point of view. However, if you ask me, Maiden belongs to all those bands who turned to crap, just like Metallica or Iced Earth. I still like Maiden's old stuff (not that I listen to it often but I can still enjoy it when I hear it) but I've never been able to like anything they have done after SSOASS.
And sorry but I think they released nothing worth listening to after that.


I respect that. A lot of my friends feel the same way, they don't like the new Maiden at all.
RavenKing - 19.01.2011 at 05:16  
Written by Susan on 18.01.2011 at 04:49

Written by Fat & Sassy! on 18.01.2011 at 03:51

"Do you really want three albums that sound exactly like Brave New World?"

Yes. Yes, I do.



Heh, I was thinking the exactly same thing. Loved Brave New World

He makes a good point, though: bands need to evolve! Even the mighty Maiden. I love when my favourite bands evolve and hate it when other fans cry about them changing. I haven't heard The Final Frontier yet but after reading this review I think I need to suck it up and listen.


People don't see the difference between change and evolution.
It is not because a band changes that it automatically evolves. Just changing is not enough to be called evolution.
To be called evolution, changes must be an improvement.
When changes are for the worst, there is no evolution.

I'm sick of reading all those comments saying "I'm glad they evolve", each time a band takes a bad turn and starts to suck. Also, I see it as dismissing the previous stuff as "not so good" sometimes.
It is even a hypocritical point of view, as some people praise albums from a band (albums in a certain style), then when the band takes a very different direction, the same people are saying "I'm glad they moved from their not-so-good old style to this".

P.S See this post as a general reflexion and not necessarily related to TFF or Maiden.
Angelic Storm - 19.01.2011 at 05:23  
Written by RavenKing on 19.01.2011 at 05:01

I understand your point of view. However, if you ask me, Maiden belongs to all those bands who turned to crap, just like Metallica or Iced Earth. I still like Maiden's old stuff (not that I listen to it often but I can still enjoy it when I hear it) but I've never been able to like anything they have done after SSOASS.
And sorry but I think they released nothing worth listening to after that.


You know that I disagree with you here, but I do respect your opinion and your right to air it. Unlike some idiots, Im sure. (although I do find it very difficult at the moment to deny that Iced Earth have turned to crap. hehe Im hoping its just a blip though...)

As for the indoctrination thingy, I think there is an element of that in all blind fanboyism. Although I think the reasons for someone being indoctrinated by a mainstream band is different from what I highlighted earlier with the intolerant extreme metal fans. I think in cases with a band like Maiden, its mainly the band themselves, and the size of the band. (and in some cases, their popularity, which is really lame!) This can make some like anything the band does just because it is them, and also dismiss all criticsm as invalid, as they see the band as beyond criticsm due to their size. I think with the intolerant fanboyism in extreme metal fans, its more about wanting to fit in with peers, and with a particular scene of metal. So the denouncing of things seen as "untr00", and of fans who dislike their brand of metal is all tied in with that. The need to fit in, or more particularly, the need of not wanting to be seen in any way as a "poser", can blind people's judgement, and ability to be completely honest about their musical opinions. The outcome of the indoctrination in both cases is equally lame, but as I said, it seems worse from mainstream fanboys, just because you see it more often.
RavenKing - 19.01.2011 at 05:29  
@Angelic Storm: In Iced Earth's case, I see the 'turning to crap' as recent, so perhaps not all is lost with this band. However, if they follow the direction they took on TCOM, it will be undoubtedly crappy, if you ask me.

As for indoctrination, I think we can't use this word to describe the "tr00" or "Kvlt" attitude displayed by some extreme metal fans. To me, indoctrination implies 'being conditioned/influenced by society or majority", which is not the case of extreme metal fans.
In their case, it is more elitism and the will 'to be different'. It is not blind trust in the general widespread point of view. It can also be a way to express hatred against society.
Angelic Storm - 19.01.2011 at 05:57  
Written by RavenKing on 19.01.2011 at 05:29

@Angelic Storm: In Iced Earth's case, I see the 'turning to crap' as recent, so perhaps not all is lost with this band. However, if they follow the direction they took on TCOM, it will be undoubtedly crappy, if you ask me.

As for indoctrination, I think we can't use this word to describe the "tr00" or "Kvlt" attitude displayed by some extreme metal fans. To me, indoctrination implies 'being conditioned by society or majority", which is not the case of extreme metal fans.
In their case, it is more elitism and the will 'to be different'. It is not blind trust in the general widespread point of view. It can also be a way to express hatred against society.


Yeah, I do of course, totally agree with you about Iced Earth. Even "Framing Armageddon" had a good few redeeming moments, even if as an overall album it was lacking compared to their old classics. I think the only way Jon can pull Iced Earth out of their current rut, is to completely steer away from the bland stuff that so badly infected the last album. Whether he will, or can do that remains to be seen, but Im still waiting with baited breath for the next album to see if he still has what it takes. I have my doubts, but most bands with long careers and large discographies usually have at least one or two duds in there, so I'll let him off with TCOM if the next album is a good one.

Well, I think the extreme metal scene is it's own society really, so I cant really agree with you there. I do agree with the "will to be different" thing though. I guess how that turns into intolerance and blind fanboyism is when someone wants to be different for it's own sake, and so their opinions and criticsms are not coming from a totally honest place, but from a need to be seen as somehow "special", or "superior", and shunning the status quo (not the band!) just because. There are some people who are just different naturally and as a matter of course. And there are those who desperately want to be different, and to be seen as that. And some will compromise their integrity in order to be seen as that. I have had my opinions bashed by both elitists and mainstream band fanboys, so I do see the closed minded and intolerant mindsets displayed from both groups very much as arriving at the same place via different avenues.
Doc Godin - 19.01.2011 at 06:55  
Quote:
It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream.

Sorry to say, it's got nothing to do with trends, and more to do with quality.

As for the review...All opinions on the subject matter aside, this was a pretty dry, uninformative review; "I like the guitars, I like the bass, I lik the drums, I like the vocals, I like the songwriting. The end" is pretty much all I got from this. Too much "I like this" and not enough "Why I liked this".
Papa_Ray - 19.01.2011 at 08:20  
While I agree much more with this review than that 7.2 head-shaking inducing one, it could have been a bit more informative.
Death To Posers - 19.01.2011 at 10:51  
Written by Papa_Ray on 19.01.2011 at 08:20

While I agree much more with this review than that 7.2 head-shaking inducing one, it could have been a bit more informative.


Thanks, I wrote a first draft that was rejected because it was a song by song review (My fault for not reading the rules). My first review goes into way more detail about which songs I liked and why. It was also about 1000 words, I think and this site only allows 500 for guest reviews. I'm used to describing one song at a time in regular conversation. This is only my first review.. I'll get the hang of being more descriptive with my full-album reviews as I write more of them, I'm sure
RavenKing - 19.01.2011 at 14:43  
Written by Angelic Storm on 19.01.2011 at 05:57

Yeah, I do of course, totally agree with you about Iced Earth. Even "Framing Armageddon" had a good few redeeming moments, even if as an overall album it was lacking compared to their old classics. I think the only way Jon can pull Iced Earth out of their current rut, is to completely steer away from the bland stuff that so badly infected the last album. Whether he will, or can do that remains to be seen, but Im still waiting with baited breath for the next album to see if he still has what it takes. I have my doubts, but most bands with long careers and large discographies usually have at least one or two duds in there, so I'll let him off with TCOM if the next album is a good one.

Well, I think the extreme metal scene is it's own society really, so I cant really agree with you there. I do agree with the "will to be different" thing though. I guess how that turns into intolerance and blind fanboyism is when someone wants to be different for it's own sake, and so their opinions and criticsms are not coming from a totally honest place, but from a need to be seen as somehow "special", or "superior", and shunning the status quo (not the band!) just because. There are some people who are just different naturally and as a matter of course. And there are those who desperately want to be different, and to be seen as that. And some will compromise their integrity in order to be seen as that. I have had my opinions bashed by both elitists and mainstream band fanboys, so I do see the closed minded and intolerant mindsets displayed from both groups very much as arriving at the same place via different avenues.


Nothing to add concerning Iced Earth. I think the same.


About the will to be different and being really different, I think it is important to underline the difference between both:

1) Some people only want to be different. Sometimes so desperately they will seek attention and acceptance from other extreme metal fans or elitists. This, I find lame. They should learn to be themselves and say a big fuck off to those who mock them only for being true to themselves and not afraid to say it out loud. If you can't assume yourself and try to please others, sorry but you're a spineless poser. In my mind, all those who care for the opinion of the metal community or their own 'credibility' on something like a metal board lack the courage and independance required to assume themselves.
One way to spot them is they will usually criticize extreme genres (and what is considered as great within those genres) very little or not at all. They will bash Powermetal but won't dare to say that a Black Metal band sucks. Those people are conformists within the extreme scene.

2) Those who are really different naturally. People who have tastes that are not common, even among metalheads. People who often are a bit different in life too. People who will not be afraid to say that something sucks, no matter if it's Powermetal or Black Metal. Same if they like it.
People who assume their choices, even if it will probably piss off a few imbeciles because you have enough trust in yourself and learned to live with those who can't politely disagree or argue with civility.
Because you don't value the opinion of those who can't do better than posting insults and bitching as soon as they disagree with you and start to act like crybabies if you believe something sucks and they find it worthy.
Angelic Storm - 19.01.2011 at 14:50  
@Ravenking: Everything you've said there is completely spot on. That is exactly the way it is, there's not really anything I can add to that. lol xD
Death To Posers - 19.01.2011 at 20:08  
Written by RavenKing on 19.01.2011 at 14:43

Written by Angelic Storm on 19.01.2011 at 05:57

Yeah, I do of course, totally agree with you about Iced Earth. Even "Framing Armageddon" had a good few redeeming moments, even if as an overall album it was lacking compared to their old classics. I think the only way Jon can pull Iced Earth out of their current rut, is to completely steer away from the bland stuff that so badly infected the last album. Whether he will, or can do that remains to be seen, but Im still waiting with baited breath for the next album to see if he still has what it takes. I have my doubts, but most bands with long careers and large discographies usually have at least one or two duds in there, so I'll let him off with TCOM if the next album is a good one.

Well, I think the extreme metal scene is it's own society really, so I cant really agree with you there. I do agree with the "will to be different" thing though. I guess how that turns into intolerance and blind fanboyism is when someone wants to be different for it's own sake, and so their opinions and criticsms are not coming from a totally honest place, but from a need to be seen as somehow "special", or "superior", and shunning the status quo (not the band!) just because. There are some people who are just different naturally and as a matter of course. And there are those who desperately want to be different, and to be seen as that. And some will compromise their integrity in order to be seen as that. I have had my opinions bashed by both elitists and mainstream band fanboys, so I do see the closed minded and intolerant mindsets displayed from both groups very much as arriving at the same place via different avenues.


Nothing to add concerning Iced Earth. I think the same.


About the will to be different and being really different, I think it is important to underline the difference between both:

1) Some people only want to be different. Sometimes so desperately they will seek attention and acceptance from other extreme metal fans or elitists. This, I find lame. They should learn to be themselves and say a big fuck off to those who mock them only for being true to themselves and not afraid to say it out loud. If you can't assume yourself and try to please others, sorry but you're a spineless poser. In my mind, all those who care for the opinion of the metal community or their own 'credibility' on something like a metal board lack the courage and independance required to assume themselves.
One way to spot them is they will usually criticize extreme genres (and what is considered as great within those genres) very little or not at all. They will bash Powermetal but won't dare to say that a Black Metal band sucks. Those people are conformists within the extreme scene.

2) Those who are really different naturally. People who have tastes that are not common, even among metalheads. People who often are a bit different in life too. People who will not be afraid to say that something sucks, no matter if it's Powermetal or Black Metal. Same if they like it.
People who assume their choices, even if it will probably piss off a few imbeciles because you have enough trust in yourself and learned to live with those who can't politely disagree or argue with civility.
Because you don't value the opinion of those who can't do better than posting insults and bitching as soon as they disagree with you and start to act like crybabies if you believe something sucks and they find it worthy.


Awesome post, I agree 100%. Hell, this post deserves it's own damn forum topic! I love this site, It would be boring if everyone were just robots all loving the same type of music and agreeing about everything.
RavenKing - 20.01.2011 at 01:52  
@Easy772: We don't need to agree about everything, which is absolutely impossible anyway. Problem is we all have a tendency (myself included, of course) to show some intolerance at times, especially when we're in a bad mood.
Also, I think it is too easy to make our comments sound as if it would be a judgment against those who don't think like us. In a real conversation, face to face, we can intervene and exchange as soon as someone says something, so it allows us to bring nuance little by little, so reaching an agreement or disagreeing politely is much easier.

Also, imo, metalheads are, in general, passionate people. That makes it more likely to turn ugly when disagreements occur

I don't mind when people disagree with me or have an opposite opinion. What I can't stand is those who don't discuss and argue about music, albums, bands etc but choose to launch personal attacks only because they don't like your comments.
Some people have a bad habit to bring the argument on a personal level and reply to criticism at albums by criticism at your own personality.
Death To Posers - 20.01.2011 at 04:47  
Written by RavenKing on 20.01.2011 at 01:52

@Easy772: We don't need to agree about everything, which is absolutely impossible anyway. Problem is we all have a tendency (myself included, of course) to show some intolerance at times, especially when we're in a bad mood.
Also, I think it is too easy to make our comments sound as if it would be a judgment against those who don't think like us. In a real conversation, face to face, we can intervene and exchange as soon as someone says something, so it allows us to bring nuance little by little, so reaching an agreement or disagreeing politely is much easier.

Also, imo, metalheads are, in general, passionate people. That makes it more likely to turn ugly when disagreements occur

I don't mind when people disagree with me or have an opposite opinion. What I can't stand is those who don't discuss and argue about music, albums, bands etc but choose to launch personal attacks only because they don't like your comments.
Some people have a bad habit to bring the argument on a personal level and reply to criticism at albums by criticism at your own personality.


Yeah, so true. It's a lot easier for people to be like "How can you not be a Slayer fan and like Thrash?" or "Whoever doesn't like slayer can suck one". Metal heads are definitely passionate people, I think part of the reason I come here is because a lot of you guys/gals will actually go into detail about songs or artists. A lot of my friends irl will throw CD's out the window or complain their asses off if I'm not playing Bay Area Thrash in the car. Not all, but most of them. the only kind of conversation is "This song is fuuucking SIICK" then turn it up, it seems like their music that they cruise/smoke/drink to. Only a few of them say anything insightful or make good points about the music.
BitterCOld - 22.01.2011 at 11:17  
Written by Doc Godin on 19.01.2011 at 06:55

Quote:
It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream.

Sorry to say, it's got nothing to do with trends, and more to do with quality.

As for the review...All opinions on the subject matter aside, this was a pretty dry, uninformative review; "I like the guitars, I like the bass, I lik the drums, I like the vocals, I like the songwriting. The end" is pretty much all I got from this. Too much "I like this" and not enough "Why I liked this".


To further on isolating that quote...

Iron Maiden is mainstream?

really?

i grew up in the 80's. they were "mainstream" then. MTV played them because they needed the band's audience to keep the network afloat. The band, i would argue, also put out there best material at this time. the cheerleaders in junior high in '85 and '86 wore maiden shirts to school...

They are hardly "mainstream" now.

if someone has something negative to say about them now, it is most likely not because they are "mainstream" (unless you are that genetic defective guy somewhere on the outskirts of Cleveland that cannot understand the difference between "pop" and "popular"), but rather their more recent works don't stand up to what they put out in the 80's.

i realize it is hard for some people to accept their favorite aging metal superstar favorite bands no longer put out stuff comparable to their best (not just IM here, this is pretty much across the "Metal bands nearing retirement age" board)... but, sadly, it is true.
Angelic Storm - 22.01.2011 at 13:50  
Written by RavenKing on 20.01.2011 at 01:52
What I can't stand is those who don't discuss and argue about music, albums, bands etc but choose to launch personal attacks only because they don't like your comments.
Some people have a bad habit to bring the argument on a personal level and reply to criticism at albums by criticism at your own personality.


Yep, this is an attitude that always irks me a lot. Launching a personal attack on someone purely because they have a different opinion on a band/album, is in my mind, never justified, and highlights a very immature mindset and personality. Debating and even arguing about musical opinions is all good, and sometimes can even be engaging and fun. But once someone drags it down to the level of personal attacks, and criticising your personality purely for holding those opinions, then I wont take their opinions seriously, and give them very short shrift.
RavenKing - 22.01.2011 at 15:10  
Written by BitterCOld on 22.01.2011 at 11:17

if someone has something negative to say about them now, it is most likely not because they are "mainstream" (unless you are that genetic defective guy somewhere on the outskirts of Cleveland that cannot understand the difference between "pop" and "popular"), but rather their more recent works don't stand up to what they put out in the 80's.

i realize it is hard for some people to accept their favorite aging metal superstar favorite bands no longer put out stuff comparable to their best (not just IM here, this is pretty much across the "Metal bands nearing retirement age" board)... but, sadly, it is true.


I won't argue about Maiden being mainstream or not. For me, it is obvious they are, seeing as I meet lots of people who are not even metal fans and they know Iron Maiden, teens wear Maiden shirts everywhere, etc. And their name is everywhere.
Anyway, mainstream or not, it doesn't matter. I don't dismiss bands simply because they are well-known but because well-known bands quite often release crap. It brings us to the second part of your post.

"but rather their more recent works don't stand up to what they put out in the 80's.", you said.
I think, in the end, it all comes down to this. With those old 80s bands, there's often such a huge difference in quality between old and new stuff, I wonder how some people can be oblivious to it. Many times, listening to the old makes it impossible for me to listen to the new because it's so boring in comparison that listening to it is an auditive ordeal.

Like you, I think lots of people have trouble accepting that those old bands will never release anything comparable to their best material. People are simply unable to turn the page. If you're looking for new stuff, the future lies in young bands, not in bands who will retire soon and barely did anything worth listening to in over 20 years.
Even if you're nostalgic about the 80s and wish for some '80s revival' or the 'old spirit', I think the solution to this would be new bands playing and sounding old school, doing it with exuberance and passion, and not old metal musicians who could be your grandfather.
Let's face it: the musical world is, to a certain extent, a revolving door. And some of those old bands are an obstacle to its operation by staying there instead of leaving the place to others.

Also, it is ironic that few persons cared for all those old bands in the 90s, considered them dead and turned the page, while so many people don't want those bands to quit now. There's quite an amount of revisionism and 'leapfrog to the past' when it comes to old metal bands these days.
Death To Posers - 24.01.2011 at 21:32  
Written by BitterCOld on 22.01.2011 at 11:17

Written by Doc Godin on 19.01.2011 at 06:55

Quote:
It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream.

Sorry to say, it's got nothing to do with trends, and more to do with quality.

As for the review...All opinions on the subject matter aside, this was a pretty dry, uninformative review; "I like the guitars, I like the bass, I lik the drums, I like the vocals, I like the songwriting. The end" is pretty much all I got from this. Too much "I like this" and not enough "Why I liked this".


To further on isolating that quote...

Iron Maiden is mainstream?

really?

i grew up in the 80's. they were "mainstream" then. MTV played them because they needed the band's audience to keep the network afloat. The band, i would argue, also put out there best material at this time. the cheerleaders in junior high in '85 and '86 wore maiden shirts to school...

They are hardly "mainstream" now.

if someone has something negative to say about them now, it is most likely not because they are "mainstream" (unless you are that genetic defective guy somewhere on the outskirts of Cleveland that cannot understand the difference between "pop" and "popular"), but rather their more recent works don't stand up to what they put out in the 80's.

i realize it is hard for some people to accept their favorite aging metal superstar favorite bands no longer put out stuff comparable to their best (not just IM here, this is pretty much across the "Metal bands nearing retirement age" board)... but, sadly, it is true.



I didn't mean that Maiden wasn't mainstream, (Even Today I would say they are still mainstream- they did hit #1 in like 30 countries with this one right? ) the point of that statement was more to address the fact that it is trendy nowadays to dislike commercially successful music. I hate commercial music if I feel the artist has sold out or simplified their music, I don't think they've done either here though.

I'll of course agree with you that their 80's stuff was better, I wasn't grading it compared to their old stuff. I tried to judge it as an individual piece of work. I understand the rating of 7.5 if that's how you viewed this piece though. Bruce's voice is starting to go though, kinda sad about that.

Must have been awesome to grow up during Maidens prime! My first album by them was Fear Of The Dark
even though "Judas Be My Guide" was a sick track.
Valentin B - 13.03.2011 at 14:09  
"It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream."

i disagree with this being said in the context of this album. i liked A Matter of Life and Death, it really had some great tracks(first 2, the Reincarnation, etc.) but this is way too much. i appreciate them experimenting with the 4-minute intro, but if they're gonna do something, why not do it GOOD? this album is a bad joke and a stain on Maiden's legacy, one of the few truly bad albums they ever wrote, and it'll take quite a masterwork for me to regain my trust in this band. notice i'm not saying they suck because they are mainstream, but because this album is a sonic shitfest and 10 minutes of listening to it seem more like 10 hours.

and btw, they have been in the metal mainstream for almost 30 years now, and they have become one of the biggest rock bands in the whole world. how does that possibly mean there's a "trend" for people to dislike Maiden or the fact they've gone mainstream? during these 30 years they sold more albums than any other metal band aside from Metallica and Scorpions. even this album went gold in 8 countries and platinum in Finland. where are all these "haters" you are talking about? on the internet?
RavenKing - 13.03.2011 at 16:51  
Written by Valentin B on 13.03.2011 at 14:09

"It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream."

i disagree with this being said in the context of this album. i liked A Matter of Life and Death, it really had some great tracks(first 2, the Reincarnation, etc.) but this is way too much. i appreciate them experimenting with the 4-minute intro, but if they're gonna do something, why not do it GOOD? this album is a bad joke and a stain on Maiden's legacy, one of the few truly bad albums they ever wrote, and it'll take quite a masterwork for me to regain my trust in this band. notice i'm not saying they suck because they are mainstream, but because this album is a sonic shitfest and 10 minutes of listening to it seem more like 10 hours.

and btw, they have been in the metal mainstream for almost 30 years now, and they have become one of the biggest rock bands in the whole world. how does that possibly mean there's a "trend" for people to dislike Maiden or the fact they've gone mainstream? during these 30 years they sold more albums than any other metal band aside from Metallica and Scorpions. even this album went gold in 8 countries and platinum in Finland. where are all these "haters" you are talking about? on the internet?


I guess it is a well-known fact on this board that I utterly dislike Iron Maiden nowadays and think all their albums after SSOASS suck.

What is much less known is the fact I was a huge Maiden fan in the 80s. And I would go as far as saying I was a Maiden fanboy until around the time they released "Fear Of The Dark".
And Maiden were very popular back then, they were everywhere. The name and imagery were already known to everyone, even 'mainstream' people who hated Metal and thought it was Satan's music. So, my dislike and despise of Iron Maiden have nothing to do with them being popular and mainstream. They were already very popular and already belonged to the mainstream Metal category when I loved them so many years ago.
Anyway, as for popularity, Maiden were much more popular in the 80s than in the 90s, when they were nearly dead.

No, my dislike and despise of Iron Maiden can be explained by completely different reasons.

Back in the 80s, Maiden released only good albums, varied enough to keep things interesting, while at the same time always true to their roots. There was passion in the music. They reached the peak of their creativity with SSOASS and it was hard to imagine this band could ever be bad.

Then they came with the shitty "No Prayer For The Dying". A so disappointing album after SSOASS. Since I was a fanboy then, I defended the band and was sure the next would be better.

I was wrong. After that, they released the so uneven "Fear Of The Dark", with a few good moments and many moments of utter shittiness. Believe it or not, even if the album was a huge disappointment and I could barely stand it, I still defended the band. Because I was a fanboy in the denial phase.

Then came the change of vocalist and Maiden released 2 albums of total crappiness I could not defend without sacrificing my integrity. I gave up. For me, the band was dead and buried. Add to this that they started releasing lives and compilations in the 90s, containing mostly the same old songs over and over. It was obvious to me that they started to live on their past because their present sucked.

Then we got news about Dickinson coming back to Maiden. I wasn't excited at all. After all, the last albums with him on vocals sucked (I wasn't a deluded fanboy any longer since "The X Factor" and accepted the idea that everything after SSOASS sucked).
I listened to the album out of pure curiosity. It was boring, bland, no more than a failed attempt at trying to recapture their 80s glory after a decade of complete crappiness.

All the albums after BNW were only getting worse and worse. Totally uninspired, bland, boring. Nothing worthy. Only an excuse to tour again and again and play their old songs live. And it is still like that to this day.

Conclusion: My dislike and despise of Iron Maiden has nothing to do with them being mainstream or popular but because I sincerely think they suck musically and released nothing really worth listening to after SSOASS. I think they desperately try to stay relevant way past their time. They might be still popular and all but it doesn't change the fact I see them as pathetic old has-beens who should have called a quit long ago. They just spoil their legacy and milk their fans by releasing nothing but crap.
Death To Posers - 13.03.2011 at 22:14  
Written by Valentin B on 13.03.2011 at 14:09

"It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream."

i disagree with this being said in the context of this album. i liked A Matter of Life and Death, it really had some great tracks(first 2, the Reincarnation, etc.) but this is way too much. i appreciate them experimenting with the 4-minute intro, but if they're gonna do something, why not do it GOOD? this album is a bad joke and a stain on Maiden's legacy, one of the few truly bad albums they ever wrote, and it'll take quite a masterwork for me to regain my trust in this band. notice i'm not saying they suck because they are mainstream, but because this album is a sonic shitfest and 10 minutes of listening to it seem more like 10 hours.

and btw, they have been in the metal mainstream for almost 30 years now, and they have become one of the biggest rock bands in the whole world. how does that possibly mean there's a "trend" for people to dislike Maiden or the fact they've gone mainstream? during these 30 years they sold more albums than any other metal band aside from Metallica and Scorpions. even this album went gold in 8 countries and platinum in Finland. where are all these "haters" you are talking about? on the internet?


If your read the rest of the comments, I also agree that Iron Maiden are mainstream. I didn't like the intro either, but it's not an album killer. There is definitely an element in the metal community that thinks it trendy or "elite" ( I guess would have been a better word for it) to dislike the "comeback bands", though I of course acknowledge the fact that there are people who truly didn't like this album for the content and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I've met a lot of people that don't like any of the new Maiden stuff but think the old stuff is sacred, though it seems like they aren't really giving the new stuff a chance. Actually, on the internet this album has gotten i'd say 90% positive reviews from the sites I've visited. At the same time, I understand that among zealous metal heads the feedback has kind of been an either loved it or hated it kind of thing.
RavenKing - 13.03.2011 at 23:21  
Written by Death To Posers on 13.03.2011 at 22:14

There is definitely an element in the metal community that thinks it trendy or "elite" ( I guess would have been a better word for it) to dislike the "comeback bands"


It depends on the comeback. Imo, Kreator have done it reasonably well. But most bands don't succeed at it.
Death To Posers - 14.03.2011 at 01:49  
Written by RavenKing on 13.03.2011 at 23:21

Written by Death To Posers on 13.03.2011 at 22:14

There is definitely an element in the metal community that thinks it trendy or "elite" ( I guess would have been a better word for it) to dislike the "comeback bands"


It depends on the comeback. Imo, Kreator have done it reasonably well. But most bands don't succeed at it.


yeah, I understand where you're coming from. Kreator's new albums are hard as fuck.

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