A)
What makes to an album or song a masterpiece?

1) The opinion of the public.
2) Sales.
3) Criticism of the specialized press.
4) Specialized press + Sales.
5) Specialized press + Public.
6) Specialized press + Public + Sales.
7) The "objective" opinion of a musician? that might to have a musical career, studies in a conservatory, music school, with knowledge that can include: the playing of musical instruments, singing, musical composition, musicianship, musicology, music history and music theory.
8) 6) + 7) or 1) + 7) or...
9) etc.


B)
About "More than ever":

If we only look the option 1), i remember that "...And Justice For All" is in the position 81. and 1420 votes within the top 100 of MetalStorm, yes, the site where we have this topic of conversation.


C)
But i ask again, Always is subjective? yes or not.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 12.04.2011 at 15:23

the term "masterpiece" is subjective here. This album is boring.

the term "boring" is subjective here. This album is a masterpiece.

Written by Vikcen on 14.04.2011 at 05:13

A)
What makes to an album or song a masterpiece?

1) The opinion of the public.
2) Sales.
3) Criticism of the specialized press.
4) Specialized press + Sales.
5) Specialized press + Public.
6) Specialized press + Public + Sales.
7) The "objective" opinion of a musician? that might to have a musical career, studies in a conservatory, music school, with knowledge that can include: the playing of musical instruments, singing, musical composition, musicianship, musicology, music history and music theory.
8) 6) + 7) or 1) + 7) or...
9) etc.


B)
About "More than ever":

If we only look the option 1), i remember that "...And Justice For All" is in the position 81. and 1420 votes within the top 100 of MetalStorm, yes, the site where we have this topic of conversation.


C)
But i ask again, Always is subjective? yes or not.

Yes, its always subjective. If there are enough individual subjective opinions about a particular album being a "masterpiece" and there is general agreement between such subjective opinions, then you have an 'objective' opinion of an album being a "masterpiece". An individual claim that an album is a "masterpiece" even if there is some sense in which the album is 'objectively' a masterpiece is still a subjective recognition of that 'objectivity'. By 'objective' I don't mean something totally independant of human opinion, such a thing doesn't exist in this context.

Written by R'Vannith on 14.04.2011 at 05:54

Written by Vikcen on 14.04.2011 at 05:13

A)
What makes to an album or song a masterpiece?

1) The opinion of the public.
2) Sales.
3) Criticism of the specialized press.
4) Specialized press + Sales.
5) Specialized press + Public.
6) Specialized press + Public + Sales.
7) The "objective" opinion of a musician? that might to have a musical career, studies in a conservatory, music school, with knowledge that can include: the playing of musical instruments, singing, musical composition, musicianship, musicology, music history and music theory.
8) 6) + 7) or 1) + 7) or...
9) etc.


B)
About "More than ever":

If we only look the option 1), i remember that "...And Justice For All" is in the position 81. and 1420 votes within the top 100 of MetalStorm, yes, the site where we have this topic of conversation.


C)
But i ask again, Always is subjective? yes or not.

Yes, its always subjective. If there are enough individual subjective opinions about a particular album being a "masterpiece" and there is general agreement between such subjective opinions, then you have an 'objective' opinion of an album being a "masterpiece". An individual claim that an album is a "masterpiece" even if there is some sense in which the album is 'objectively' a masterpiece is still a subjective recognition of that 'objectivity'. By 'objective' I don't mean something totally independant of human opinion, such a thing doesn't exist in this context.

Hehe, yes, the answer is yes =). And i agree, i like all what you said about it, and how you said it. But as it was questioned the "objectivity" of this album in particular in that particular way, i have no choice but to raise the dilemma in this context, but like you said, such a thing doesn't exist in this context. But when he posed this dilemma in that particular way, more than ever this album have some "objective" data at least, if this have some sense.

I'm sure that a person have his particular collection, and within this collection his own masterpieces, and i vote for this, for your soul. The rest (i'm refering to A) and B), the presumptive objectivity) is at least interesting, or can help to you to know, or even can be funny, or entertaining, etc, etc, at least for me, or as we are doing: debating haha =).

Written by R'Vannith on 14.04.2011 at 05:44

Written by Troy Killjoy on 12.04.2011 at 15:23

the term "masterpiece" is subjective here. This album is boring.

the term "boring" is subjective here. This album is a masterpiece.

In the immortal words of Sean Maguire: I was being ironical.

Written by R'Vannith on 14.04.2011 at 05:44
the term "boring" is subjective here. This album is a masterpiece.

It's only subjective if that opinion is coming from a position of bias, rather than personal objectivity. Which is something you could also apply to someone calling it a "masterpiece". It is not a fact that the album is a "masterpiece" or "boring", they are both merely opinions. I do think the album is a classic, but people who think otherwise are completely entitled to think that, because whether the album is great or it sucks purely comes down to personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 14.04.2011 at 01:07

Written by K✞ulu on 13.04.2011 at 17:04

Such statements are a waste Internet space. Seriously, you could say that about any album.

They aren't a waste of space when the topic of conversation is about an album I happen to have an opinion on. If every opinionated comment was a waste of space these forums would be completely barren, with the exception of the Pub and various non-music-related threads.

You statement would be not a waste of Internet space if you said, "I think this album is boring" without saying that calling it a masterpiece is subjective. It is so because calling it boring is just as subjective. So I think Impeckable expressed my idea quite well.

You are talking about "opinionated comment" but you haven't even tried to have a constructive argument about this album: at least saying why you think the album is boring, which songs are boring in particular etc. And I'd rather have these forums empty than having comments like these.

Written by K✞ulu on 14.04.2011 at 11:17

You statement would be not a waste of Internet space if you said, "I think this album is boring" without saying that calling it a masterpiece is subjective. It is so because calling it boring is just as subjective. So I think Impeckable expressed my idea quite well.

1. I don't think people should have to add "in my opinion", "I think...", etc. when discussing art (music). I'm pretty sure it's implied that it's your opinion when you say something is good or bad.
2. Read my previous response to Impeckable. I was making fun:

"This is a masterpiece." [subjective]
"That's subjective. [obviously] This is boring." [subjective] = irony

Back to point 1: I don't think adding "my opinion" and whatnot is necessary. You didn't mention anything about your opinion when stating "masterpiece" songs, but I knew it was an opinionated statement because those statements were being made about music.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 14.04.2011 at 15:32

Written by K✞ulu on 14.04.2011 at 11:17

You statement would be not a waste of Internet space if you said, "I think this album is boring" without saying that calling it a masterpiece is subjective. It is so because calling it boring is just as subjective. So I think Impeckable expressed my idea quite well.

1. I don't think people should have to add "in my opinion", "I think...", etc. when discussing art (music). I'm pretty sure it's implied that it's your opinion when you say something is good or bad.
2. Read my previous response to Impeckable. I was making fun:

"This is a masterpiece." [subjective]
"That's subjective. [obviously] This is boring." [subjective] = irony

Back to point 1: I don't think adding "my opinion" and whatnot is necessary. You didn't mention anything about your opinion when stating "masterpiece" songs, but I knew it was an opinionated statement because those statements were being made about music.

so you were joking from the very beginning, when commenting on Vikcen?

Written by K✞ulu on 14.04.2011 at 15:52

so you were joking from the very beginning, when commenting on Vikcen?

Re-read this:

Written by Troy Killjoy on 12.04.2011 at 15:23

Written by Vikcen on 12.04.2011 at 07:53

What about such masterpieces "...And Justice For All", "To Live Is To Die" and "Dyers Eve"? =)

More than ever, the term "masterpiece" is subjective here. This album is boring.

It was a play on you calling songs from this album masterpieces. Because you made such an opinionated statement out to be a fact, I thought I'd do the same.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 14.04.2011 at 15:57

Written by K✞ulu on 14.04.2011 at 15:52

so you were joking from the very beginning, when commenting on Vikcen?

Re-read this:

Written by Troy Killjoy on 12.04.2011 at 15:23

Written by Vikcen on 12.04.2011 at 07:53

What about such masterpieces "...And Justice For All", "To Live Is To Die" and "Dyers Eve"? =)

More than ever, the term "masterpiece" is subjective here. This album is boring.

It was a play on you calling songs from this album masterpieces. Because you made such an opinionated statement out to be a fact, I thought I'd do the same.

Now I can confidently say that it was a waste of Internet space.

Written by K✞ulu on 14.04.2011 at 16:03


Now I can confidently say that it was a waste of Internet space.

Hahaha, I'm sure that you've learned a lot after reading all this .

I don't really know what to say about this album. It's not their best and it's not their worst album. I think that if james and lars included the sound of bass in the album it would sound way better. Their are 3 songs on the album that are very boring to listen to, ...and justice for all, eye of the beholder and to live is to die. They sound the same throughout. The rest of the songs are pretty good but it's not my favorite metallica album

This is my 3rd favorite metal album of all time, but does anyone else think "One" is the slowest and worst song on the album ?

Written by Death_95 on 02.06.2011 at 11:38

This is my 3rd favorite metal album of all time, but does anyone else think "One" is the slowest and worst song on the album ?

I definitely dont think that, no. I don't dislike any of the songs. lol Although if I had to pick a worst, Id pick "To Live Is To Die", as the main riff is probably repeated a bit too much.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.06.2011 at 12:02

Written by Death_95 on 02.06.2011 at 11:38

This is my 3rd favorite metal album of all time, but does anyone else think "One" is the slowest and worst song on the album ?

I definitely dont think that, no. I don't dislike any of the songs. lol Although if I had to pick a worst, Id pick "To Live Is To Die", as the main riff is probably repeated a bit too much.

Orion and Suicide And Redemption are better, but still "To Live Is To Die" is a great song IMO. I don't know why but I never liked One that much, it's the only song I wouldn't give a 10 on the album lol. Another instrumental I just listened to recently is "Joseph Merrick" by Mastodon, it's just epic. I think they were inspired by Orion since they did a cover of it on the "Kerrang: Master Of Puppets [Tribute]" album.

He, To Live Is To Die is probably the best instrumental song from Metallica, put it With high volume, put the bass also high, and hallucinate (y flipa).

I don't know if thats a crime or not...but i am changing a bit in fact of Master Of Puppets being the best Thrash/Heavy Metal album ever...i think there's more bands doing it...or albuns...in fact i prefer this one "...And Justice For All"!!! But with doubts!

Perhaps "Master of Puppets" is a better "thrash" album than "...And Justice for All" because of the music and lyrical content in it. But personally I prefer the "...And Justice For All" album, drums are awesome and James Hetfield's voice is better in this one. Also guitar riffs are better to me.

Best of all times!! 10!

Written by John Shock on 08.06.2011 at 21:03

I don't know if thats a crime or not...but i am changing a bit in fact of Master Of Puppets being the best Thrash/Heavy Metal album ever...i think there's more bands doing it...or albuns...in fact i prefer this one "...And Justice For All"!!! But with doubts!

Couldn't agree more, this is easily the best thrash metal album of all time IMO... But still Master Of Puppets is one of the best albums ever made.

Written by Death_95 on 10.10.2011 at 09:37

Written by John Shock on 08.06.2011 at 21:03

I don't know if thats a crime or not...but i am changing a bit in fact of Master Of Puppets being the best Thrash/Heavy Metal album ever...i think there's more bands doing it...or albuns...in fact i prefer this one "...And Justice For All"!!! But with doubts!

Couldn't agree more, this is easily the best thrash metal album of all time IMO... But still Master Of Puppets is one of the best albums ever made.

Agree, but i'm sick of Metallica. R.I.P. Metallica! ...And Justice For All still awesome of course...! \m/

Awesome album.,..its been my music while im rest all in a dayli heavy'es life sick.,..
its these album ,.hell.hail,..love them too.,..\m/ for al metallica's fans.,

I once gave this album a 7, but now I grew into it.

The intro of "Blackened" is amazing.

#94! How is that even possible?! One of the greatest metal albums ever. Metallica will never be the same obviously but they made a huge mark on the beginning of thrash and the minds of metal heads everywhere.

#94? How is that even possible?! One of the most overrated albums ever.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.01.2012 at 06:39

#94? How is that even possible?! One of the most overrated albums ever.

this

Written by [user id=35732] on 11.01.2012 at 00:16

Written by cbfh5 on 10.01.2012 at 06:04

#94! How is that even possible?! One of the greatest metal albums ever. Metallica will never be the same obviously but they made a huge mark on the beginning of thrash and the minds of metal heads everywhere.

Welcome to MS as this is your first post. I also regard this album as one of the greatest albums I've experienced. Charts are based on collective ratings. Have trust in your own tastes and avoid building artificial boundaries/reasons why you should not like something.

This.

After the cliff burton death (rip) it's the last album who really sound like thrash metal.