Written by [user id=13232] on 15.06.2006 at 19:16

If cloning of humans could be easly done, there will maybe some regimes which clone a whole army.

Yeah right. Pull a lever and a big machine starts to output clones, right? There are countless dilemmas concerning a cloned army and it would take practically infinite resources to do that. To talk about "cloning humans easily" you'd most likely have to go into the future hundreds of years. And even then, do you think they'd just let you do that? It's impossible to keep something like that a secret (or did you expect to get acceptance?), especially when you have to grow the army all the way from fertilized egg cells.

Written by KryptoN on 15.06.2006 at 20:08

Written by [user id=13232] on 15.06.2006 at 19:16

If cloning of humans could be easly done, there will maybe some regimes which clone a whole army.

Yeah right. Pull a lever and a big machine starts to output clones, right? There are countless dilemmas concerning a cloned army and it would take practically infinite resources to do that. To talk about "cloning humans easily" you'd most likely have to go into the future hundreds of years. And even then, do you think they'd just let you do that? It's impossible to keep something like that a secret (or did you expect to get acceptance?), especially when you have to grow the army all the way from fertilized egg cells.

heh well i am sure they wont let anyone do that... because as far as the Vatican is in control, many scientific experimentations would not be allowed to take place, and im sure the Vatican is willing to do ANYTHING to stop it... it sort of became teaching hypocrisy... i mean they talk about humanity's free will and they dont grant it. If u pass that obstacle, your free to do whatever you want.

Yes, lets clone a whole human. Heck, lets clone a bunch of 'em! It's not like they're not real people or anything!

Hell! Lets just make a bunch and experiment the fuck out of 'em - turn them into elaborate lab rats. It's not as if we don't do enough of it already, except now we won't have to inconvenience homeless people and retards for our experiments.

If the tests come out well, maybe we'll make millions from rich white assholes by making legacies for them through cloning at inflated prices.

Hey! Let's just create a new breed of second class citizen for the fun of it. They're just clones - why should we pay them as much? Their only purpose is organ-harvesting anyway. Fuck their feelings.

...I bet that 20 year old clone would have really wanted that kidney of his, however, his old, rich originator/master needs a fresh one... too bad for him! But then again, if he didn't want to lose it, he probably shouldn't have chosen to be a clone. Fuck him.

...
It's very complex to said it, but I'm with about the organ cloning, spite of the researches are still primitives, and can occur a lot problems about mutations and mainly cancer, and I believe that science will get a great results.

But I'm against the human cloning, cuz if it happen, the human population gonna be a great chaos, about it, the greats researches centers, wanna do it for long scale production of supertroopres.

(Oh my!!! I traveled on Ketchup... )

Hollow Thoughts: Yes I know exactly what you mean, it is very weird to see a person that kind of looks like you. Imagine someone that looks just about the same as you ?uhmm I don't know what I would do but it just disturbing..

And well organ cloning is the cloning of an organ for a person that has ant type of organ failure , but is also a complicated process ?

@Krypton and decapitator : I think that the population could be a strong concern , nature has it ways to have less population , I mean I don't want to sound cruel or anything but maybe natural disaster is for that , because imagine more and more population one day the earth is going to go BBOOOMMM ?imagine if the do cloning in China well they have the intelligence to do it and all of that but look how populated is I mean you can't have more than 1 child ?.so imagine with cloning I don't know I just disagree it's a good idea ?.


@Dam3k: well I understand what you mean, but you see is a complicated process for the sheep they tried to clone it took them more than 10o times and in a 100 times there's a lot waited ?.so I'm not sure , and well some animals need to be extinct for other one's to live and for new one's to born ?


@Fire101: Yeah that could be valid, but still if someone that wants to harm you, they could take a piece of hair, or something from you and try to do a clone and what If they can ? then there's going to be someone like you..That is not you. And what if this person decides to be a criminal uhmm ? so I don't know


@Crematory: My dear this is extremely deep what you wrote and well I believe almost the same ?it is a very complicated thing to do , but I think that God could be the only creator because we are ignorant and limited , I mean yes he gave us the mind , but this mind goes just to one point ? and yeah organ cloning thanks for bringing that up I forgot about the whole fetus situation but well they also take it from death people or things like that ?uhmm thank you ?

@Deathmor,KryptoN, Crematory: well the point is like I said if cloning got into the hands of the wrong person uhmm what a big mistake.


@LethargyMan: Good point, I think they have feelings too , and well God didn't do that when it created us ?. He has giving us too much , and well maybe you don't have religion so in your case maybe life itself , this is what I mean , we are too ignorant and limited ?.. thank you great post ?

@Nehrodwarf: Lol, well yeah , I mean some of them don't know what they are doing , and is bad to try something when at least you don't have some bases , it is complex ?..

well my friend Icewings, you have a quite good point of view but who said we are becoming creators our selves? The main ingredient that a human body requires to have life is a soul, and since science does not believe in the soul, it cannot provide the fetus with it, and even if science later on begins to believe in the soul of a human being, it will never be able to produce one, since it is something not concrete, something only the Creator can provide our world with. Remember that a body without a soul is a dead human corpse, and thus even if we believe that we created a human, that doesnt mean we are correct, because we did not provide it with the soul, but God did.

thigs are very simple in my point of view... any science discovery can be dangerous and controversial but this doesn't mean we should stay away from it... we just have to use it for good things as saving lives and making life easier...

therefore I'm WITH cloning if it is done for the right reasons and pourposes...

P.S.: and if society isn't realy to accept it for now, later it will be...

MarinBG i think youre totally right im very sure they will accept it later, and that is no more than 30-40 years i mean let science advance from now why to hinder it if you know that it will continue later on? Let everything take its course (only for good beneficial reasons)

Yes, this society will accept it in a few years, as mankind will just be manipulated by science and will believe it is good.

I will NEVER agree with cloning. Trust me, not if it will save me, my mum, my love or you. Cloning is not good.

My question is: why is a man afraid of death, as he doesn't even know what is after death? Because I think that is the reason why we clone, to live an immortal life..

Written by Lucas on 19.06.2006 at 21:02

My question is: why is a man afraid of death, as he doesn't even know what is after death? Because I think that is the reason why we clone, to live an immortal life..

Immortal life? You know a clone of you isn't you. (S)he's a different living entity having the same code that builds/maintains your physical form. Of course there would be tendency towards similar personality properties but it's still not you. At least this would be the most logical case.

Written by KryptoN on 19.06.2006 at 21:19

Written by Lucas on 19.06.2006 at 21:02

My question is: why is a man afraid of death, as he doesn't even know what is after death? Because I think that is the reason why we clone, to live an immortal life..

Immortal life? You know a clone of you isn't you. (S)he's a different living entity having the same code that builds/maintains your physical form. Of course there would be tendency towards similar personality properties but it's still not you. At least this would be the most logical case.

That was not entirely what I meant. I meant to say we are trying to escape something we can't escape: death. And we do that buy replacing kidneys, heart, legs whatever needs to be replaced. But what's the point of that, as you will end up being an assimilation of persons and partly consisting of iron (or whatever they use for a new rib).

I mean to say we try to reach immortal life, so we wont have to afraid of death anymore, whilst we do not even know what death is..

im for cloning animals (or people) but just for food! we could feed milions of hungry "souls" ... but if there would be a clone of me .. i'd kill it/me. i am the only!

Are you serious? So you count animals higher than yourself? You allow them to clone an animal just so you can take control of it? I can't understand that, seriously, I can't. It is your opinion, and of course each to his own.. but well..

Written by Lucas on 19.06.2006 at 21:32

That was not entirely what I meant. I meant to say we are trying to escape something we can't escape: death. And we do that buy replacing kidneys, heart, legs whatever needs to be replaced. But what's the point of that, as you will end up being an assimilation of persons and partly consisting of iron (or whatever they use for a new rib).

I mean to say we try to reach immortal life, so we wont have to afraid of death anymore, whilst we do not even know what death is..

Yeah well, I read your post quite one-dimensionally so sorry for that. I blame the fact that I'm ill at the moment and at times quite delirious, hehe...

But yes it's true that we are trying to escape death (not specific to cloning), but it's clearly not the only reason for the research. Also to my knowledge immortality is impossible since that would require information to be indestructible and I'm fairly sure they know that. However "semi-immortality" could be possible (but it's waaaay out there) where it's incredibly hard to get rid of someone. For example reversing of aging, or a device that constantly saves your brain/body structure somewhere so if you die they could build your molecular structure again according to the saved information and you'd be exactly like at the moment before death. That would also mean that teleport (molecular break down -> data transmission -> reconstruction) has been invented. But now I'm being delirious again so maybe it's best to end this message.

Written by KryptoN on 19.06.2006 at 22:43

Written by Lucas on 19.06.2006 at 21:32

That was not entirely what I meant. I meant to say we are trying to escape something we can't escape: death. And we do that buy replacing kidneys, heart, legs whatever needs to be replaced. But what's the point of that, as you will end up being an assimilation of persons and partly consisting of iron (or whatever they use for a new rib).

I mean to say we try to reach immortal life, so we wont have to afraid of death anymore, whilst we do not even know what death is..

Yeah well, I read your post quite one-dimensionally so sorry for that. I blame the fact that I'm ill at the moment and at times quite delirious, hehe...

No problem, I should've explained better too.

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But yes it's true that we are trying to escape death (not specific to cloning), but it's clearly not the only reason for the research. Also to my knowledge immortality is impossible since that would require information to be indestructible and I'm fairly sure they know that. However "semi-immortality" could be possible (but it's waaaay out there) where it's incredibly hard to get rid of someone. For example reversing of aging, or a device that constantly saves your brain/body structure somewhere so if you die they could build your molecular structure again according to the saved information and you'd be exactly like at the moment before death. That would also mean that teleport (molecular break down -> data transmission -> reconstruction) has been invented. But now I'm being delirious again so maybe it's best to end this message.

Well, it might become reality one day. And where would we use it for? I can't think of something good. (seeing as I think of almost -if not all- intervention as meddling with Nature's course and thus think of it as bad)

Written by Lucas on 19.06.2006 at 22:52

Well, it might become reality one day. And where would we use it for? I can't think of something good. (seeing as I think of almost -if not all- intervention as meddling with Nature's course and thus think of it as bad)

But we are also part of the nature and nature's course as anything else. To me there is no such concept as unnatural. How would you define unnatural?

I dont think we should not clone people. This is my reasoning, what is the point of Making a copy of someone else? If they pass and you make a copy of them (clone them) it might look like them and might be exactly like them, but it will never be them, and it might be an exact duplicate, but you know its not actually them and its not the real thing, there is no point to try and make a copy of something if i dies just so it is like it never died, there is no point to it, becuase they will die again no one lives forever, and it wont be the same thing, it will be some phoney copy, and that is why Cloning is stupid and we should of never started it, its pointless, deal with things in your life, like Death, cloning wont make anything any better.

Written by Immortal Plague on 19.06.2006 at 23:12

I dont think we should not clone people. This is my reasoning, what is the point of Making a copy of someone else? If they pass and you make a copy of them (clone them) it might look like them and might be exactly like them, but it will never be them, and it might be an exact duplicate, but you know its not actually them and its not the real thing, there is no point to try and make a copy of something if i dies just so it is like it never died, there is no point to it, becuase they will die again no one lives forever, and it wont be the same thing, it will be some phoney copy,

Who says that it must be like the original one? Why would it have to be like the original one? Some phoney copy? That's basically an insult to identical twins, which is essentially the same thing, they are genetic clones. It's not all about trying to win death or "playing god", one must understand that.

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and that is why Cloning is stupid and we should of never started it, its pointless, deal with things in your life, like Death, cloning wont make anything any better.

How would you know that? I'm certain it will lead to new scientific discoveries that will help humanity and probably help us greatly to understand life and the universe a little bit more. To call cloning pointless is just plain ignorant, it does have a very strong point. Even if it has bad sides on the way (which I believe it will have a lot) it's still well worth looking into for the positive sides. But all this has already been said earlier in this thread.

Written by KryptoN on 20.06.2006 at 00:23

Written by Immortal Plague on 19.06.2006 at 23:12

I dont think we should not clone people. This is my reasoning, what is the point of Making a copy of someone else? If they pass and you make a copy of them (clone them) it might look like them and might be exactly like them, but it will never be them, and it might be an exact duplicate, but you know its not actually them and its not the real thing, there is no point to try and make a copy of something if i dies just so it is like it never died, there is no point to it, becuase they will die again no one lives forever, and it wont be the same thing, it will be some phoney copy,

Who says that it must be like the original one? Why would it have to be like the original one? Some phoney copy? That's basically an insult to identical twins, which is essentially the same thing, they are genetic clones. It's not all about trying to win death or "playing god", one must understand that.

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and that is why Cloning is stupid and we should of never started it, its pointless, deal with things in your life, like Death, cloning wont make anything any better.

How would you know that? I'm certain it will lead to new scientific discoveries that will help humanity and probably help us greatly to understand life and the universe a little bit more. To call cloning pointless is just plain ignorant, it does have a very strong point. Even if it has bad sides on the way (which I believe it will have a lot) it's still well worth looking into for the positive sides. But all this has already been said earlier in this thread.

Yes, cloning will lead to other Scientific discoveries, but to copy someone is just dumb, and im not offending identical twins at all, because their not an exact copy, they act diffrently, they might look the same but are not the same, making a clone of someone is making another copy of them,its dumb to clone someone or something, but you do have a point it will lead to other scientific breakthroughs. I just think cloning things isint worth waisting time for.

I'm just curious as to what these supposed "scientific discoveries" actually would be, because I, frankly, can't think of any.

The identical twins will act differently because they only share the same DNA, not the life experience. Clones also share the same DNA. Identical twins ARE clones of one another. The clones we are talking about mean genetic copies and genetic cloning, not absolute clones (which is an impossibility in this case). A good example might be the two cloned trees story. You plant the first one in nutritious soil and the other one in some dry and poor soil. Now do you think they will turn out to be the same? The same applies to humans. Everything affects everything; the butterfly effect.

Written by LethargyMan on 20.06.2006 at 03:49

I'm just curious as to what these supposed "scientific discoveries" actually would be, because I, frankly, can't think of any.

Could that be because they haven't been discovered yet, eh? It always happens. Some "major" line of research spawns many branches of research.

Written by KryptoN on 19.06.2006 at 23:09

Written by Lucas on 19.06.2006 at 22:52

Well, it might become reality one day. And where would we use it for? I can't think of something good. (seeing as I think of almost -if not all- intervention as meddling with Nature's course and thus think of it as bad)

But we are also part of the nature and nature's course as anything else. To me there is no such concept as unnatural. How would you define unnatural?

The things I'd define as unnatural are those that weren't there before us, humans, entered this world. So basically that is everything. A short list:

The first fur we start to wear. A television set. Cloning. Guns. My couch. The book I'm reading. My connection with you: internet.

I think you can find some things yourself. Look around. My problem is, is that this world sometimes feels so unnatural. When I walk around, I think something like this:

-Why am I wearing shoes?
-Because my feet will bleed because there is glass everywhere around.
-Why is there glass?
-So we can store our stuff.
-Why do we need to store our stuff, why are we not happy with what we need? Sleep and food.
-Because the human race has grown decadent and has to much free time, because all those machines take it away from us. To give you a general idea


We always say that we survive, because we are smart enough to solve our problems. But tell me, have we EVER solved a problem without causing a hundred other problems?

*I feel we're getting quite off-topic here.*

Well those are indeed some interesting thoughts. However I still count humans as natural, we have just learnt to manipulate the nature that was before us (which is mostly not good, but still natural).

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We always say that we survive, because we are smart enough to solve our problems. But tell me, have we EVER solved a problem without causing a hundred other problems?

Yeah, probably not. But looking at cloning, there's simply nothing that can be done even if you're against it (just like with everything else) which seems kind of brutal for those against it. I'm not fully with cloning either but it's gonna go forward so I try to look on the bright sides of it. It's gonna cause much problems, probably exceptionally much of them.

I can't really find words for my thoughts at this moment.

Written by KryptoN on 20.06.2006 at 14:43

Well those are indeed some interesting thoughts. However I still count humans as natural, we have just learnt to manipulate the nature that was before us (which is mostly not good, but still natural).

Yeah, probably not. But looking at cloning, there's simply nothing that can be done even if you're against it (just like with everything else) which seems kind of brutal for those against it. I'm not fully with cloning either but it's gonna go forward so I try to look on the bright sides of it. It's gonna cause much problems, probably exceptionally much of them.

That's probably the only thing we can do. I don't think all scientist over the world will be stopped by a 14-year old jerk who doesn't agree with them.

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I can't really find words for my thoughts at this moment.

I know the feeling.

It's an interesting thread, well, I'm against cloning, each human is unique in the whole universe, with his own feelings, thoughts, etc, so, having another human exactely the same, how can he feel?, personally, I don't think I feel good with that, and the cloned neither
And remember that a cloned human may not be very healthy and can have troubles with health which make the things worst

Written by The Alchemist on 24.06.2006 at 19:32

It's an interesting thread, well, I'm against cloning, each human is unique in the whole universe, with his own feelings, thoughts, etc, so, having another human exactely the same, how can he feel?, personally, I don't think I feel good with that, and the cloned neither
And remember that a cloned human may not be very healthy and can have troubles with health which make the things worst

That's only one part of cloning. You are talking about cloning entire people, but what do you think for example about cloning a heart to replace an unhealthy one? (read my posts to find out what I think about that, or ask)

Well, I haven't thought about this before, I saw in one of your posts that we're escaping of death and that may be true, but I think that many people want to live until the end and if there's something you can do to avoid it, quite better.
Or imagine that someone is sick and need another heart or another part of your body that is unhealthy, otherwise, this one will be alive but with serious problems... in this case, it's better to have a cloned organ
I think that only in this cases cloning is ok, but I don't know what to think after that because maybe some people will say that since cloning organs is ok, we can do it without control, and that wouldn't be ok

Written by The Alchemist on 24.06.2006 at 19:57

Well, I haven't thought about this before, I saw in one of your posts that we're escaping of death and that may be true, but I think that many people want to live until the end and if there's something you can do to avoid it, quite better.
Or imagine that someone is sick and need another heart or another part of your body that is unhealthy, otherwise, this one will be alive but with serious problems... in this case, it's better to have a cloned organ
I think that only in this cases cloning is ok, but I don't know what to think after that because maybe some people will say that since cloning organs is ok, we can do it without control, and that wouldn't be ok

I can see where you are coming from, and I understand why you say. But I disagree.

You say many people want to live till the end. But there is no established end. Life (in this world) ends when your dead. I don't think people want to live till the end, but people don't want to die. That's why they try to avoid it, and lengthen their lives here. I cannot agree with that, I feel that when ones time has come, he should accept.

When you're sick, same thing, accept it. I don't I'd be able to love myself if I'd have all sorts of different organs and stuff that isn't mine. I think it'd feel very weird.

My point is based upon one thought: No intervention. I'm not talking about God(s), but I am talking about Mother Nature. We cannot disrupt her cycle.
(But, her cycle is argueable. If you are interested, check my discussion with Draklar in the thread 'Discuss us, the humanrace'.)

Ok, I understand your point and I respect it, but it's your point, other people can think different, I say this point as a general thinking, but I don't think I'm gonna accept other organs if I want to die or if it's sure that I won't live good with them

You said: "I don't think people want to live till the end, but people don't want to die. That's why they try to avoid it"
I agree with that but it's another issue, people are afraid to death.

Anyways, I like your point

Written by The Alchemist on 24.06.2006 at 20:59

Ok, I understand your point and I respect it, but it's your point, other people can think different, I say this point as a general thinking, but I don't think I'm gonna accept other organs if I want to die or if it's sure that I won't live good with them

You said: "I don't think people want to live till the end, but people don't want to die. That's why they try to avoid it"
I agree with that but it's another issue, people are afraid to death.

Anyways, I like your point

Yes, very true. A lot of people think different about this. That's why I think we should accept it, even though I disagree with it, so that others still have the option.