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Original post

Posted by Sekhmet, 02.08.2006 - 14:22
A discussion was going on in the "Now Reading" thread about Tolkien and his work and IMO the man also deserves his own thread
There's so much to discuss about him...

First, his books of course!! Considered as the father of the fantasy genre, he created a whole new mythic world, a connected body of tales, fictional histories, invented languages, and other literary essays about an imagined world called Arda, and Middle-earth, identified as an 'alternative' remote past of our own world. His work includes the famous Lord of the Rings trilogy, bit also the Silmarillion, the Hobbit, the Book of Lost Tales,... (for a detailed bibliography ask Wiki ). Let's discuss his writings

Then the adaptation by Peter Jackson. I personnaly loved the movies due to actors and special effects, but I think the story was messed up to adjust to every kind of public and I disliked it. In particular the big part played by Arwen and her romance with Aragorn was seriously getting on my nerves...

There are also serious discussions about Tolkien... Like this argument I had with a friend about Tolkien being a racist or not. I was bringing up that point: An undercurrent of the Lord of the Rings seemed to focus on racial purity. The elves were supposed to have the purest blood, followed by the Numenorians, followed by common men, and then down to Orcs. Remember the scandal when Aragorn married Arwen? She was seen as tainting her bloodlines by marrying a "mere" man. Remember the scandal when Faramir married Eowyn? He was said to be diluting the precious Numenorian blood lines. There were also frequent mentions to the "thinning" of the Numenorian blood lines.
Does this obsession with "my race is purer than yours" show that Tolkien was a racist who believed in racial superiority?
Well, the question was worth asking IMO (obviously since I asked it ), but I think he wasn't... Because despite the differences between "races", the relationships between Arwen and Aragorn (love between an elf and a man), or Legolas and Gimli (friendship between an elf and a dwarf, races so different), or Gandalf and the hobbits proves that he doesn't believe in racial purity. Feel free to discuss it too
07.01.2007 - 13:48
Frostulv
Account deleted
Written by Guest on 07.01.2007 at 13:28

Written by Guest on 06.01.2007 at 14:24

What thoughts do you guys have on "The Children of Húrin" which will be published later this year?
I'm looking very much forward to it. If this had been done a few years ago, I might have been skeptical, but I know Christopher Tolkien has tried restoring/gathering all the existing parts of the Narn for years, so I believe this might be very good.
It's also too late for this work to cause some commercial jippo, I believe, since it's a few years since the films came out.

I didn't know anything about this! That's sounds interesting!
Indeed, if Christopher Tolkien had some collaborationed/created about it, it could be great.
Thank you for informations!


And if you check Wikipedia, the release-date is estimated to the 16th of April this year in the UK and the US, so I guess that means the English version will be available everywhere from about then. THere's little to be found at Harper Collins, though.

I think it's going to be really great, since the Narn is one of the most beautiful stories Tolkien ever wrote IMO.
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07.01.2007 - 13:57
Ulven i Manden
Account deleted
Written by Guest on 07.01.2007 at 13:48

Written by Guest on 07.01.2007 at 13:28

Written by Guest on 06.01.2007 at 14:24

What thoughts do you guys have on "The Children of Húrin" which will be published later this year?
I'm looking very much forward to it. If this had been done a few years ago, I might have been skeptical, but I know Christopher Tolkien has tried restoring/gathering all the existing parts of the Narn for years, so I believe this might be very good.
It's also too late for this work to cause some commercial jippo, I believe, since it's a few years since the films came out.

I didn't know anything about this! That's sounds interesting!
Indeed, if Christopher Tolkien had some collaborationed/created about it, it could be great.
Thank you for informations!


And if you check Wikipedia, the release-date is estimated to the 16th of April this year in the UK and the US, so I guess that means the English version will be available everywhere from about then. THere's little to be found at Harper Collins, though.

I think it's going to be really great, since the Narn is one of the most beautiful stories Tolkien ever wrote IMO.

I don't know Narn at all... I should learn something about it. But every of Tolkien's work is amazing, so I believe that's Narn is great too!
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07.01.2007 - 16:01
Frostulv
Account deleted
Narn I Hîn Húrin (the Lay of the Children of Húrin) is as you probably know the tale of Húrin and Túrin and all the events connected to them. It was meant to be Tolkien's magnum opus, but he never got to finish it, so I'm really excited to see what Christopher has made of it.

You can read a bit about the Narn here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_hurin
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07.01.2007 - 20:54
Ulven i Manden
Account deleted
@Frostulv: Mange Takk! (<-- for somebody who don't know Norwegian: Big Thanks - but I don't know for sure how to precise translated it )

I have always fascinated by complexity of Tolkien's world and his complex tales. It is amazing how one man could created this ALL. This "new" published works are also great for one reason: because they reveal more details of mysterious world of Middle-Earth. And what is important: they all composed as logical structures. Pure genius of human (Tolkien) thought!
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11.01.2007 - 18:39
Ealdamir
Written by Guest on 07.01.2007 at 16:01

Narn I Hîn Húrin (the Lay of the Children of Húrin) is as you probably know the tale of Húrin and Túrin and all the events connected to them. It was meant to be Tolkien's magnum opus, but he never got to finish it, so I'm really excited to see what Christopher has made of it.

You can read a bit about the Narn here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_hurin


Not quite my favourite story form Sillmarillion but it would be interesting to read it. But how much of the text is his original writtings and how much his son's?
----
I Really Wanna Visit Wonderland Some Time...
::)

Plz, Help me Fly!
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11.01.2007 - 20:12
Keoren
Account deleted
Written by Ernotar on 26.11.2006 at 17:56

I haven't found any similarities yet...


Finnish influences are propably the best seen in the names

For example:
Ilúvatar (One of the Valar) - Ilmatar (Finnish goddess)
Annatar (Sauron's fake name, means 'the giver of gifts' or 'the lord of gifts') - 'Anna' means 'give' in Finnish

Here's also an interesting page for you.
http://www.sci.fi/~alboin/finn_que.htm


PS. I think I heard from somewhere that Tolkien also used Latin and Greek in the language(s).
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11.01.2007 - 21:01
Frostulv
Account deleted
@Manden i Ulven: Bare hyggelig


Written by Ealdamir on 11.01.2007 at 18:39

Written by Guest on 07.01.2007 at 16:01

Narn I Hîn Húrin (the Lay of the Children of Húrin) is as you probably know the tale of Húrin and Túrin and all the events connected to them. It was meant to be Tolkien's magnum opus, but he never got to finish it, so I'm really excited to see what Christopher has made of it.

You can read a bit about the Narn here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_hurin


Not quite my favourite story form Sillmarillion but it would be interesting to read it. But how much of the text is his original writtings and how much his son's?


Remember, that everything is what Tolkien originally wrote, and Christopher has, no matter what, been brought up with his father's works. Just remember how the Hobbit started out as a tale Tolkien told his children, so I'm pretty sure about that Christopher knows what he's doing, even if he has to add a line or two.

On the other hand, he surely has played a part in the editing of the Silmarillion, and most (mark - I only say most, since I know there are some Tolkien-purists out there who only regard what Tolkien published in life as real works) people hold that work as good as any other.
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11.01.2007 - 22:52
Ulven i Manden
Account deleted
It is true: without Christopher's help many beautiful tales never appeared. Who can do it better than Tolkien's son? I think: no one. Tolkien wrote too many things. Almost all of them (not published during live) are scattered/not finished/variety versions, motives... It is like puzzle work. Many splendid works of human thought, like Edda or Kalevala must be edited by someone... I think is good that Tolkien's son do it because we can enjoy more of Tolkien's legacy and see his works in vaster context - more detailed.
Today I thought to myself: if Tolkien could wrote his mythological works some 1000 years earlyier - he probably become creator a new religion...
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13.01.2007 - 05:42
spirit_inblack
harshhead
Tolkien was a genius of a writer... for his time. Most of his stories are really exciting and quite thrilling, but I find the Lord of the Rings to be overrated.

I've read the first book about two times, but I tried to a third, and I finished it, but when I got to the Two Towers, I thought, whoa I'm bored out of my skull, so I quit reading it.

There are obviously much better authors around today (Robert Jordan, Terry Goodkind, etc) but Tolkien set the stage for what was to come in the Epic Fantasy genre.

I believe that Christopher Tolkien finished of some stories and even drew up/finished some maps after his father died. He too, is a fairly talented writer.
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14.01.2007 - 01:29
Rainmaker123
Account deleted
Tolken is one of my heros, his Imagination is simpley mind blowing, ive read the hobbit, and the lord of the rings trilogy, looking to read his other lotr work, especially the Sillmarillion, I simply cant get enough of tolken's stuff, well, all fantasy stuff like that. I also loved the Peter Jackson films, and i love Howard Shores soundtrack for the films.

Tolken is a geniuses.
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18.01.2007 - 18:55
Frostulv
Account deleted
Haha, as I say: "Tolkien is my God and the Lord of the Rings is my Bible" :p I guess that's the closest I'll ever come to religion.
Back to point, in my opinion, most modern fantasy-writers (don't misunderstand me, I think many of them are extremely talented and have created wonderful universes) try a bit too much to be Tolkien and the stories, no matter how wonderful, most are still very obviously inspired by his works. So even if you think his style is overrated or not, he clearly put the standards for how to write fantasy in the 20th and 21st century.
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30.01.2007 - 04:17
Jesus_Puncher
Account deleted
i always preferred the books over the movies...seeing how they left alot of things out from the novels...and not to mention in the books Samwise and Frodo arent buttbuddies
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31.01.2007 - 13:36
APOHAKC
The Bard
I must agree with Miotalhobad, I real can't find any part of the movie where these two hobbits show they ambition to homosexuality, I don't know from where these stories are coming? The both hobbits are perfectly normal, in all movies, but if you have found the moment of their blasphemist jeretism please show me that part in the movie so I can see it with my own eyes.
----
They say that we are gone but I can't let you down
The heathen faith will rise again we won't fail now
I know we cannot die forever is our time
Give my people back to me free from Christianity!!!!
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06.02.2007 - 06:52
Jesus_Puncher
Account deleted
Written by Ernis on 01.02.2007 at 00:05

I think the puncher of my friend here has been influenced too much bu all these different spoofs that tend to develop dubious storylines....such as fantacysing about sexual acts between Arwen and Eowyn, Haldir and Legolas and of course Frodo and Sam....


actually i thought they kinda had this gay vibe before all that spoofing from Clerks 2 and others surfaced but to answer your guy's question...no they dont have sex...but there is this Gay vibe they give off from scenes in those films. which i actually find funny...and what i said about them being buttbuddies in my last comment was a added joke....like i said the reason i prefer the novels is because all my favorite parts in the books, they left out in the movie...i'm perfectly aware of the extended features....but i dunno...i guess reading about middle earth was always more appealing....the movies take the imagination away
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21.02.2007 - 13:43
Valentin B
Iconoclast
SPOILERS BELOW

if it was up to me, i'd recreate 100% the story of the books in the movies...but then there would have to be WAY too many characters(bombadil(i was fucking amazed that he has NO mentioning in the movie, a thing tolkien wouldn't be too happy about), hama, glorfindel, old man willow, the southmen that came to helm's deep, the huorns and the list goes on forever)
i like some of the extra elements in the movies(the comical renditions of gollum and treebeard for example), but i find it's too much arwen and aragorn(not just their love story, but also arwen's character is way too emphasized and aragorn is too much of a heartbreaker)

and(i'm a geek, yeah) some of the extra elements in the movies are kind of unrealistic.. i mean, when they defend osgiliath from the orc assault, and the nazgul appears(kickass scene nonetheless), wouldn't it be logical that they would have guarded every single inch of cirith ungol and the surroundings? and there is of course the lothlorien army marching to aid rohan..i mean how the fuck didn't they know they were coming?
but the most vague scene of all is the very last one, when gandalf, with elrond, frodo and bilbo sail to the west... you just can't understand where they're going, if they're still alive, why did they go there?
i would only point out one flaw in the movie: the slightly cheesy scene when elrond and isildur are standing on the very brink of the cracks of doom(in the first movie).
but the way they morph sauron, gandalf, legolas, galadriel, and pretty much all of the fantasy stuff, it's just worth the enormous profits they got... so cult, so unbelievable..
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23.02.2007 - 06:48
vallhalen
Account deleted
Written by Valentin B on 21.02.2007 at 13:43

SPOILERS BELOW

if it was up to me, i'd recreate 100% the story of the books in the movies...but then there would have to be WAY too many characters(bombadil(i was fucking amazed that he has NO mentioning in the movie, a thing tolkien wouldn't be too happy about), hama, glorfindel, old man willow, the southmen that came to helm's deep, the huorns and the list goes on forever)
i like some of the extra elements in the movies(the comical renditions of gollum and treebeard for example), but i find it's too much arwen and aragorn(not just their love story, but also arwen's character is way too emphasized and aragorn is too much of a heartbreaker)

i know what you mean. i think they focused on the special effects, huge battles, scary nazguls and things like that instead of showing some scenes that LOTR geeks (like me) would enjoy to see. but we all know how Hollywood is. if they had told the story exactly like the way it's on the book, i think that just the Fellowship of the Ring would last 6 o 7 hours. imagine a book based on the Silmarillion, our poor asses would have to stay sticked to the movie theater seats for days.

a thing that really surprised me when i saw The Two Towers was the appearance of Gollum. i mean, when i read the book i imagined something like a mix between a human and a frog, maybe arms and legs like a toad, scales instead of skin, no clothes, no hair and something like a fish head. i know, it's hard to imagine but that's the way i thought it would appear on the movies. huge dissapointment when instead of that i saw just an ugly little dude.
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24.02.2007 - 05:20
The Alchemist
Metalchemist
Written by Guest on 23.02.2007 at 06:48

Written by Valentin B on 21.02.2007 at 13:43

SPOILERS BELOW

if it was up to me, i'd recreate 100% the story of the books in the movies...but then there would have to be WAY too many characters(bombadil(i was fucking amazed that he has NO mentioning in the movie, a thing tolkien wouldn't be too happy about), hama, glorfindel, old man willow, the southmen that came to helm's deep, the huorns and the list goes on forever)
i like some of the extra elements in the movies(the comical renditions of gollum and treebeard for example), but i find it's too much arwen and aragorn(not just their love story, but also arwen's character is way too emphasized and aragorn is too much of a heartbreaker)

i know what you mean. i think they focused on the special effects, huge battles, scary nazguls and things like that instead of showing some scenes that LOTR geeks (like me) would enjoy to see. but we all know how Hollywood is. if they had told the story exactly like the way it's on the book, i think that just the Fellowship of the Ring would last 6 o 7 hours. imagine a book based on the Silmarillion, our poor asses would have to stay sticked to the movie theater seats for days.

I couldn't agree more with you, movies are different from the books, because of Hollywood, and I'm pretty sure that if the movies were exactly like the books, they wouldn't only be extremely long but some people would consider them boring. So, that's a good incitement for reading
----


I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to be alive without being aware of it
Sensorium - Epica
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25.04.2007 - 20:39
HeathenBlood
Account deleted
Written by The Alchemist on 24.02.2007 at 05:20

Written by Guest on 23.02.2007 at 06:48

Written by Valentin B on 21.02.2007 at 13:43

SPOILERS BELOW

if it was up to me, i'd recreate 100% the story of the books in the movies...but then there would have to be WAY too many characters(bombadil(i was fucking amazed that he has NO mentioning in the movie, a thing tolkien wouldn't be too happy about), hama, glorfindel, old man willow, the southmen that came to helm's deep, the huorns and the list goes on forever)
i like some of the extra elements in the movies(the comical renditions of gollum and treebeard for example), but i find it's too much arwen and aragorn(not just their love story, but also arwen's character is way too emphasized and aragorn is too much of a heartbreaker)

i know what you mean. i think they focused on the special effects, huge battles, scary nazguls and things like that instead of showing some scenes that LOTR geeks (like me) would enjoy to see. but we all know how Hollywood is. if they had told the story exactly like the way it's on the book, i think that just the Fellowship of the Ring would last 6 o 7 hours. imagine a book based on the Silmarillion, our poor asses would have to stay sticked to the movie theater seats for days.

I couldn't agree more with you, movies are different from the books, because of Hollywood, and I'm pretty sure that if the movies were exactly like the books, they wouldn't only be extremely long but some people would consider them boring. So, that's a good incitement for reading

Yeah..That is right!!
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26.04.2007 - 02:10
Arian Totalis
The Philosopher
I'm currently re-reading tolkiens "The Hobbit"
----
"For the Coward there is no Life
For the hero there is No Death"
-Kakita Toshimoko

"The Philosopher, you know so much about nothing at all." _Chuck Schuldiner.
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09.02.2008 - 16:21
Valentin B
Iconoclast
currently reading the Silmarillion.. certainly an extremely epic tale and etc. but where is all the dialougue? i like the luxuriant descriptions and stuff, but i want to see more interaction!
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09.02.2008 - 18:05
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight
no wonder, while Silmarilion is build up mainly from solitary notes and pieces of ideas by long and hard work of Christopher Tolkien sorting father's legacy...you can read The Children of Húrin if you wanna novel with everything - Silmarilion is not any classical novel
----
My rest seems now calm and deep
Finally I got my dead man sleep

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09.02.2008 - 19:29
Clintagräm
Shrinebuilder
Written by Valentin B on 09.02.2008 at 16:21

currently reading the Silmarillion.. certainly an extremely epic tale and etc. but where is all the dialougue? i like the luxuriant descriptions and stuff, but i want to see more interaction!


It's a history book. It was mean to be like that.
----
The force will be with you, always.
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09.02.2008 - 22:46
Varegan
Hamranakara
Written by Clintagräm on 09.02.2008 at 19:29

Written by Valentin B on 09.02.2008 at 16:21

currently reading the Silmarillion.. certainly an extremely epic tale and etc. but where is all the dialougue? i like the luxuriant descriptions and stuff, but i want to see more interaction!


It's a history book. It was mean to be like that.

if you think its like a history book you are in a serious mistake! thats more like Scandinavian mythology and bible tales
----
Written by muthafucka on 08.07.2010 at 06:46

"METAL STORM" (LIGHTING STRIKES)
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09.02.2008 - 22:50
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight
it is the fictional history of the fictional country...but yes, it reminds Bible a lot
----
My rest seems now calm and deep
Finally I got my dead man sleep

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10.02.2008 - 00:41
Valentin B
Iconoclast
Written by Varegan on 09.02.2008 at 22:46

Written by Clintagräm on 09.02.2008 at 19:29

Written by Valentin B on 09.02.2008 at 16:21

currently reading the Silmarillion.. certainly an extremely epic tale and etc. but where is all the dialougue? i like the luxuriant descriptions and stuff, but i want to see more interaction!


It's a history book. It was mean to be like that.

if you think its like a history book you are in a serious mistake! thats more like Scandinavian mythology and bible tales

yeah, the language reminds me of the Bible pretty much
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10.02.2008 - 00:55
Varegan
Hamranakara
Written by Valentin B on 10.02.2008 at 00:41

Written by Varegan on 09.02.2008 at 22:46

Written by Clintagräm on 09.02.2008 at 19:29

Written by Valentin B on 09.02.2008 at 16:21

currently reading the Silmarillion.. certainly an extremely epic tale and etc. but where is all the dialougue? i like the luxuriant descriptions and stuff, but i want to see more interaction!


It's a history book. It was mean to be like that.

if you think its like a history book you are in a serious mistake! thats more like Scandinavian mythology and bible tales

yeah, the language reminds me of the Bible pretty much

there is also a lot of Norse Myth symbols and stories. like story of fenrir and Tyr and story of the ring of Andvari and even Noah's ship and etc.
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Written by muthafucka on 08.07.2010 at 06:46

"METAL STORM" (LIGHTING STRIKES)
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10.02.2008 - 02:08
Clintagräm
Shrinebuilder
Written by Varegan on 09.02.2008 at 22:46

Written by Clintagräm on 09.02.2008 at 19:29

Written by Valentin B on 09.02.2008 at 16:21

currently reading the Silmarillion.. certainly an extremely epic tale and etc. but where is all the dialougue? i like the luxuriant descriptions and stuff, but i want to see more interaction!


It's a history book. It was mean to be like that.

if you think its like a history book you are in a serious mistake! thats more like Scandinavian mythology and bible tales


It's telling the history of his world...a history book. Yes? I'm not saying it's a history textbook you'll find at school obviously, but it was written that way because it is telling the "tales" (that would be history) in a condensed form. Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings? Just imagine trying to apply that type of writing to all of the events in The Silmarillion. Yeah, not happening.
----
The force will be with you, always.
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10.02.2008 - 05:54
Varegan
Hamranakara
Written by Clintagräm on 10.02.2008 at 02:08

Written by Varegan on 09.02.2008 at 22:46

Written by Clintagräm on 09.02.2008 at 19:29

Written by Valentin B on 09.02.2008 at 16:21

currently reading the Silmarillion.. certainly an extremely epic tale and etc. but where is all the dialougue? i like the luxuriant descriptions and stuff, but i want to see more interaction!


It's a history book. It was mean to be like that.

if you think its like a history book you are in a serious mistake! thats more like Scandinavian mythology and bible tales


It's telling the history of his world...a history book. Yes? I'm not saying it's a history textbook you'll find at school obviously, but it was written that way because it is telling the "tales" (that would be history) in a condensed form. Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings? Just imagine trying to apply that type of writing to all of the events in The Silmarillion. Yeah, not happening.

in the beginning of book, Tolkien make a really fantastic myth for creation of Arda and then he add some Gods and Demigods for every elements in nature.and then he begin his history for his own world.its mythology and history together.
my most favor part of book is where the Fingolfin go to fight with Morgoth alone in Angband.thats amazingly epic, and even Blind Guardian made one of their best song about it. I cant never forget that track

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Written by muthafucka on 08.07.2010 at 06:46

"METAL STORM" (LIGHTING STRIKES)
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10.02.2008 - 11:30
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight
Written by Clintagräm on 10.02.2008 at 02:08

Just imagine trying to apply that type of writing to all of the events in The Silmarillion. Yeah, not happening.


so far it was applied to the story of Turin and Nienor, published as the book The Children Of Hurin very nice and epic story, but i must say, it is quite too sad for me and with no "happy end" my greatest wish is to re-make the story of Beren And Luthien in that way - imo the most beautiful and most glorious story from whole Tolkien's work beating even The Lord Of The Rings itself
----
My rest seems now calm and deep
Finally I got my dead man sleep

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10.02.2008 - 21:06
Clintagräm
Shrinebuilder
Written by Ellrohir on 10.02.2008 at 11:30

Written by Clintagräm on 10.02.2008 at 02:08

Just imagine trying to apply that type of writing to all of the events in The Silmarillion. Yeah, not happening.


so far it was applied to the story of Turin and Nienor, published as the book The Children Of Hurin very nice and epic story, but i must say, it is quite too sad for me and with no "happy end" my greatest wish is to re-make the story of Beren And Luthien in that way - imo the most beautiful and most glorious story from whole Tolkien's work beating even The Lord Of The Rings itself


Indeed, that would be very cool, but Tolkien is gone, and even though I'd love to read full blown stories from The Silmarillion I think it's best left unwritten, and kept in our minds.
----
The force will be with you, always.
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