Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 20:23

That's why I highlighted chaos in quote marks, because they often have the appearance of being chaotic. There is truly nothing dissonant about GB's work. Almost every riff has a warm and standard counterpoint to it. You may as well call virtually any black metal dissonant if they are to be considered so. I would suggest familiarising yourself with more of the bands on this list and you will see that GB do not belong here.

Also, the idea of "textbook" dissonant riffs seem somewhat of an oxymoron to me, as such a riff would be, by these definitions, unusual and unpredictable and far from any known textbook definitions.

This is dissonance and it has clearly defined boundaries. There are only twelve notes in a scale and only certain combinations result in a dissonant sound. Also, hardly any black metal is dissonant in truth, they simply use chromatic sequences as I noted above in my edited reply.

Edit: The link I provided is an example of dissonance, not dissonance itself.

I was going to mention that I am not familiar with the theoretical definition of dissonant music in description and forgot this because I was in urge to piss when I was making the list. By dissonant, I mean the type of, duno, technique (??) which I suppose was pioneered by Fleurety, Ved Buens Ende and Gorguts.

Written by LeKiwi on 08.11.2013 at 20:29

This is dissonance and it has clearly defined boundaries. There are only twelve notes in a scale and only certain combinations result in a dissonant sound. Also hardly any black metal is dissonant in truth, they simply use chromatic sequences as I noted above in my edited reply.

But GB's riffs are contained in totally standard and predictable ways and progress in a way that doesn't invite any level of difficulty that is generally part and parcel to most of these bands here. To approach the idea of dissonant metal in such a dry and technical way is to do to it a disservice as you're ignoring structure, song progressions and probably many other elements. So, while GB may have a smattering or "dissonant riffs" they are purely superficial and, in my opinion, do not serve a list like this with any real accuracy. As I say, listen to the bands here and get a broader picture of the concept of dissonant metal.

Written by LeKiwi on 08.11.2013 at 20:29

This is dissonance and it has clearly defined boundaries. There are only twelve notes in a scale and only certain combinations result in a dissonant sound. Also, hardly any black metal is dissonant in truth, they simply use chromatic sequences as I noted above in my edited reply.

Edit: The link I provided is an example of dissonance, not dissonance itself.

Thanks, it would be good having a video explanation.

Written by mz on 08.11.2013 at 20:35

I was going to mention that I am not familiar with the theoretical definition of dissonant music in description and forgot this because I was in urge to piss when I was making the list. By dissonant, I mean the type of, duno, technique (??) which I suppose was pioneered by Fleurety, Ved Buens Ende and Gorguts.

Right, those bands are cold, detached and unpredictable in where they are going next. I never have that feeling with GB. All of their songs make perfect sense from a structural point of view. If you lift out particular riffs they may sound odd and dissonant, but when they are put together to make songs they progress in a relative standard way.

Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 20:35

But GB's riffs are contained in totally standard and predictable way and progress in a way that doesn't invite any level of difficulty that is generally part and parcel to most of these bands here. To approach the idea of dissonant metal in such a dry and technical way is to do to it a disservice as you're ignoring structure, song progressions and probably many other elements. So, while GB may have a smattering or "dissonant riffs" they are purely superficial and, in my opinion, do not serve a list like this with any real accuracy. As I say, listen to the bands here and get a broader picture of the concept of dissonant metal.

I don't think there exists a clearly defined term such as dissonant metal, but if it did it would evoke the concept of dissonant chords. I am familiar with several of these bands and understand what you are trying to point out, however a more appropriate term would be chaotic, lest musicians come to voice gripes over semantics That being said, a majority of these bands do use dissonant chords...

Written by mz on 08.11.2013 at 20:37

Thanks, it would be good having a video explanation.

I hope you weren't being sarcastic, I really did just post it to clarify what dissonance is musically

Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 20:38

Written by mz on 08.11.2013 at 20:35

I was going to mention that I am not familiar with the theoretical definition of dissonant music in description and forgot this because I was in urge to piss when I was making the list. By dissonant, I mean the type of, duno, technique (??) which I suppose was pioneered by Fleurety, Ved Buens Ende and Gorguts.

If you lift out particular riffs they may sound odd and dissonant, but when they are put together to make songs they progress in a relative standard way.

This is exactly how I feel right now. Some riffs seem rather unusual and odd, but the flow of music is not that strange.
btw, is demilich be the first band incorporating such dissonance in their music?

Written by LeKiwi on 08.11.2013 at 20:47

I don't think there exists a clearly defined term such as dissonant metal, but if it did it would evoke the concept of dissonant chords. I am familiar with several of these bands and understand what you are trying to point out, however a more appropriate term would be chaotic, lest musicians voice gripes over semantics That being said, a majority of these bands do use dissonant chords...

I've always shyed away from using the term chaotic, which to me invites the idea of randomness which is never the case with recorded music such as this. If it can be reproduced accurately by the band, say, live then it cannot be random.

The dictionary definition of "dissonance" only encompasses the musical definition, the other two being 1. Harsh and inharmonious in sound; discordant. and 2. Being at variance; disagreeing. Both of those terms I think highlight exactly what consituted "dissonant" metal. And, as you say, dissonant chords are probably a uniform constituent of dissonant metal bands as a description so I have no issue with using it. After all, this is the best of dissonant metal, not the best of metal with dissonant chords

Written by LeKiwi on 08.11.2013 at 20:49

I hope you weren't being sarcastic, I really did just post it to clarify what dissonance is musically

I really was tankful and not sarcastic. As mentioned before, I am not familiar with theoretical definition of dissonant and that link would probably help me (I have not watched it yet, will do tomorrow)
Again, tnx

Written by mz on 08.11.2013 at 20:51

This is exactly how I feel right now. Some riffs seem rather unusual and odd, but the flow of music is not that strange.
btw, is demilich be the first band incorporating such dissonance in their music?

In music? I very much doubt it. Noise by definition is pretty "dissonant" and that was around before metal, but there was also plenty of avant-garde musicians of various genres that probably incorporated anti-harmony, anti-structure elements in their music, maybe even as early as the early 1900s. I would say Voivod may have beaten Demilich to the post in metal, but there may be more before that.

Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 20:57

In music? I very much doubt it. Noise by definition is pretty "dissonant" and that was around before metal, but there was also plenty of avant-garde musicians of various genres that probably incorporated anti-harmony, anti-structure elements in their music, maybe even as early as the early 1900s. I would say Voivod may have beaten Demilich to the post in metal, but there may be more before that.

Shit, I did mean metal, and the the type of metal which fits the context of list.

Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 20:54

I've always shyed away from using the term chaotic, which to me invites the idea of randomness which is never the case with recorded music such as this. If it can be reproduced accurately by the band, say, live then it cannot be random.

The dictionary definition of "dissonance" only encompasses the musical definition, the other two being 1. Harsh and inharmonious in sound; discordant. and 2. Being at variance; disagreeing. Both of those terms I think highlight exactly what consituted "dissonant" metal. And, as you say, dissonant chords are probably a uniform constituent of dissonant metal bands as a description so I have no issue with using it. After all, this is the best of dissonant metal, not the best of metal with dissonant chords

The way you construe "dissonant metal" fits neatly into both progressive and avant-garde metal, encompassing concepts of incorporating elements from other genres; and utilising unconventional approaches to structure and chord progression. You wouldn't classify jazz that incorporates these elements as dissonant jazz when a more appropriate label would be avant-garde jazz. I understand the way you perceive "dissonant" music, but that concept is constituent of an existing genre.

Written by mz on 08.11.2013 at 20:55

I really was tankful and not sarcastic. As mentioned before, I am not familiar with theoretical definition of dissonant and that link would probably help me (I have not watched it yet, will do tomorrow)
Again, tnx

No worries

Written by LeKiwi on 08.11.2013 at 21:34

The way you construe "dissonant metal" fits neatly into both progressive and avant-garde metal, encompassing concepts of incorporating elements from other genres; and utilising unconventional approaches to structure and chord progression. You wouldn't classify jazz that incorporates these elements as dissonant jazz when a more appropriate label would be avant-garde jazz. I understand the way you perceive "dissonant" music, but that concept is constituent of an existing genre.

The vast majority of progressive metal I've heard is not "Harsh and inharmonious in sound; discordant" which is something almost all of these bands have in common. That being said the concept of dissonant metal is not a genre, as mz has stated, it's simply a description of bands that collectively use a range of both techniques and sounds to create a certain effect, and its their effect which this list focuses on, not the specific techniques on their own merits (due to the various genres present here I would argue). I would, for example, call none of these bands as a genre "dissonant black metal" etc. but I would describe them as such, like I would say avant-garde jazz can be "dissonant." So, I wouldn't lump most progressive bands into this list because such techniques are not being used to the effect that is common here, even if a lot of techniques used here are, in turn, present in progressive metal. Avant-garde however I would say is a frequent visitor of this trope of metal and many of these bands could be described as such.

So yeah, you can have dissonant chords but how you use them is something different altogether (my reasoning for why GB shouldn't be present; the odd dissonant chord used to create relatively conventional riffs, obvious progressions and frequently amounting to harmonious and chords and riffs). You can use or borrow a technique from another branch of music but that doesn't mean to say that the effect will be the same. Taking the dry, analytical approach here I feel is out of context to the overall tone of this list, which I would say is not born out of analyses of individual techniques, rather bands as a whole and how they project themselves as an overall sound using combinations of technique, structure and sound. I realise I'm speaking for mz of course and this may not be the case. I think basically what I'm saying is that bands should be seen as more than the sum of their parts, especially here which defines a concept rather than elements of music theory.

Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 21:46

The vast majority of progressive metal I've heard is not "Harsh and inharmonious in sound; discordant" which is something almost all of these bands have in common. That being said the concept of dissonant metal is not a genre, as mz has stated, it's simply a description of bands that collectively use a range of both techniques and sounds to create a certain effect, and its their effect which this list focuses on, not the specific techniques on their own merits (due to the various genres present here I would argue). I would, for example, call none of these bands as a genre "dissonant black metal" etc. but I would describe them as such, like I would say avant-garde jazz can be "dissonant." So, I wouldn't lump most progressive bands into this list because such techniques are not being used to the effect that is common here, even if a lot of techniques used here are, in turn, present in progressive metal. Avant-garde however I would say is a frequent visitor of this trope of metal and many of these bands could be described as such.

So yeah, you can have dissonant chords but how you use them is something different altogether (my reasoning for why GB shouldn't be present). You can use or borrow a technique from another branch of music but that doesn't mean to say that the effect will be the same. Taking the dry, analytical approach here I feel is out of context to the overall tone of this list, which I would say is not born out of analyses of individual techniques, rather bands as a whole and how they project themselves as an overall sound using combinations of technique, structure and sound. I realise I'm speaking for mz of course and this may not be the case. I think basically what I'm saying is that bands should be seen as more than the sum of their parts, especially here which defines a concept rather than elements of music theory.

There is a fine line between progressive and avant-garde and while the two are very closely related and have overlapping elements, a majority of these bands cross over into the latter from what I've listened to. Barring the musical dissonance incorporated, I wouldn't call the music here harsh and inharmonious in sound; I would simply call it unconventionally structured - essentially avant-garde. I'm not assuming you have declared "dissonant metal" as a subgenre; I'm simply saying that these are just extreme (black, death, etc.) avant-garde/progressive bands with a focus on dissonance. Thus labeling them as "dissonant metal" ignores atypical structures and progressions present that you have pointed out and highlights the dissonant chords used. I think that "chaotic" would better suit this music because it implies both unstructured and musical discord. I figured you would note that I'm approaching this from a purely technical perspective, but that's what I do with most things

Written by LeKiwi on 08.11.2013 at 22:16

There is a fine line between progressive and avant-garde and while the two are very closely related and have overlapping elements, a majority of these bands cross over into the latter from what I've listened to.

Technically, yeah they probably do. But that doesn't mean they'll sound all that similar. As I say, a band is made of elements to create an overall sound and approach. If you can find me some progressive metal bands that I, mz or others would describe as "dissonant" in the way that this list defines it then by all means do.

But I agree that a lot of these bands could be considered avant-garde. I'm not disputing that, but at the same time I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Avant-garde metal can be both "dissonant" and not so.

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Barring the musical dissonance incorporated, I wouldn't call the music here harsh and inharmonious in sound; I would simply call it unconventionally structured - essentially avant-garde.

Again, I find that summary devoid of feeling and toward the analytical which is not in keeping with the tone of this list. I would suggest that anyone with a diet of mostly power, heavy, thrash etc. etc. and perhaps even some of the more basic black and death metal would mostly describe many of the bands here "harsh," "noisy" "unstructured" and other such adjectives. Many might even go so far as calling it non-music in some form and maligning it as such. I understand you might see music here purely from a technical perspective but it's been made clear that that is not how the concept of "dissonant" has been constructed for the purpose of this list. Further discussion on this is inherently pointless unless you want to suggest that the larger demographic would not find music of this type "harsh and inharmonious" as a whole (not with the dissonant chords taken out of the equation because that's simply not within most people's ability or desire).

Quote:

I'm not assuming you have declared "dissonant metal" as a subgenre; I'm simply saying that these are just extreme (black, death, etc.) avant-garde/progressive bands with a focus on dissonance. Thus labeling them as "dissonant metal" ignores atypical structures and progressions present that you have pointed out and highlights the dissonant chords used.

Well this is simply going back to how one likes the word dissonance to be used. I, and others like mz, like to use it as a description to highlight a collective of bands comprising music of a dissonant nature, not just on the chords used (which as I have said is only one aspect). Dissonant for me: more than just dissonant chords, as per point !. of the dictionary definition. Seeing as most people here are largely unaware of the technical music definitions of dissonant chords I believe they would mostly identify with mz's definition here (presumably the same as my own).

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I think that "chaotic" would better suit this music because it implies both unstructured and musical discord. I figured you would note that I'm approaching this from a purely technical perspective, but that's what I do with most things

As I say, chaotic is clumsy and inaccurate. I could call lots of lo-fi grind "chaotic" because the sounds become noisy and indistinct. I wouldn't call that lack of clarity "dissonant" though as grind bands typically don't make music that would be suitable on a list like this so chaotic's meaning is just too vague. Even if it is self-constructed, dissonant as a description fits the majority of these bands perfectly to me. You could describe a lot of metal as "chaotic" but I personally don't think any of these bands as that and would attempt to deter anyone from doing so. The reason is is because these bands all have a kind dual-tone about them if one can understand them enough; they exude an impression of anti-harmony while at the same time making sense on a subtle, implicit level. Precisely where the enjoyment comes from. They are both chaos and structure at once, so I could never be happy calling them chaotic, because they simply are not. Grind = the use of simple techniques to create an impression of chaos. The metal on this list = the apparent use of chaotic elements to construct something that is intrinsically intelligent. I really can't stress this differentiation between the component parts and the sum. I feel like you're never crossing over to the sum level of the concept and are focussing solely on the band's make-up.

I'm happy to carry on the discussion but I'm not interested in a tug-of-war match between the semantics of the term "dissonant" because we've already covered how it can be interpreted in different ways. Neither is invalid but in the instance of this list, and the liklihood that a majority will see this list as intended and a only minority will look at it from a music theory point of view (like yourself), I think enough clarification has been laid down.

Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 22:36

I shall reply, but need to get some work done

Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 21:46

I realise I'm speaking for mz of course and this may not be the case.

You described my opinion better than myself and I agree 100%.

Written by LeKiwi on 08.11.2013 at 22:16

There is a fine line between progressive and avant-garde and while the two are very closely related and have overlapping elements, a majority of these bands cross over into the latter from what I've listened to. Barring the musical dissonance incorporated, I wouldn't call the music here harsh and inharmonious in sound; I would simply call it unconventionally structured - essentially avant-garde. I'm not assuming you have declared "dissonant metal" as a subgenre; I'm simply saying that these are just extreme (black, death, etc.) avant-garde/progressive bands with a focus on dissonance. Thus labeling them as "dissonant metal" ignores atypical structures and progressions present that you have pointed out and highlights the dissonant chords used. I think that "chaotic" would better suit this music because it implies both unstructured and musical discord. I figured you would note that I'm approaching this from a purely technical perspective, but that's what I do with most things

I don't disagree with most of your argument but I really don't think that most of bands here have anything in common aesthetic-wise with regular progressive metal. Moreover, the reason for inclusion of most of bands here is their "harsh and inharmonious", sometimes hellish sound and that's how they sound on my ears. Finally, as I told before, the approach of the list is not analytic, and that's why I don't include a band like Dodecahedron which might be musically more dissonant than all of albums here.

Written by angel. on 08.11.2013 at 12:31

Written by mz on 08.11.2013 at 11:57

You've been missed lately <3

boys, that's a bit gay, stop it

Sorry mz but I have to agree with Mary on this one. Thanks anyway though.

Written by Erik M. on 08.11.2013 at 23:56

Sorry mz but I have to agree with Mary on this one. Thanks anyway though.

Meh, I should only use this one when talking to you
anyway, not a single recommendation?

Written by Guest on 08.11.2013 at 22:36

Of course, avant-garde takes many forms. I think that perceiving this music to be harsh and inharmonious is solely accountable to musical dissonance. When I present avant-garde music to people who are unfamiliar with the subgenre - as is my wont - they note that the music is unusual, strange, or unstructured, leading me to conclude that descriptors harshness and inharmoniousness would only arise when attributed to the dissonant chords and would be most appropriate when such musical elements are present. I think dissonant metal is a term that will be understood by the masses because it is seen as synonymous with discord which brings about the notion of incongruity or inappropriateness. Semantics considered, I suppose you could call this harsh and inharmonious, but not in sound, more in structure and progression. Chaos can always be contained and structured so I see no issue in describing this music as so, despite that I wouldn't do so myself. To the inexperienced ear such music will always be chaotic. In any case, I was merely musing on a more appropriate descriptor for this particular style. I think I've settled on inappropriate metal

Written by mz on 08.11.2013 at 22:45

I don't disagree with most of your argument but I really don't think that most of bands here have anything in common aesthetic-wise with regular progressive metal. Moreover, the reason for inclusion of most of bands here is their "harsh and inharmonious", sometimes hellish sound and that's how they sound on my ears. Finally, as I told before, the approach of the list is not analytic, and that's why I don't include a band like Dodecahedron which might be musically more dissonant than all of albums here.

I realise that most prog sounds nothing like this, but the concept of progressive certainly overlaps with this music with regards to unconventional structure and musical progression and the like. I suppose if we stretch the definition of dissonance, then this is an apt title Meh, I'm done with semantics, I only wanted to point out the musical term of dissonance and I've lost myself in another pointless discussion

Lol, Joe and LeKiwi arguing again? I'm looking forward to reading that discussion.

Written by mz on 09.11.2013 at 00:12

Meh, I should only use this one when talking to you
anyway, not a single recommendation?

Still busy reading all the comments on this list and Monolithic's list. Yes, call me crazy but I actually read every single comment on all lists. I guess that also has got something to do with OCD.

So I'll be back for sure.

Written by LeKiwi on 09.11.2013 at 00:13

Of course, avant-garde takes many forms. I think that perceiving this music to be harsh and inharmonious is solely accountable to musical dissonance.

But as you have highlighted by suggesting that much of prog uses dissonant chords, and that I have suggested in that Glorior Belli are not a dissonant band despite containing some dissonant chords, that just because music contains dissonant chords does not necessarily make the band in question dissonant as a whole. "Dissonant metal" may always make use of dissonant chords, and if that is correct then there is no better name for this list, as all bands here both subscribe to your definitions of dissonant metal by containing musical dissonance and my and mz's definition of a broader, descriptive conceptualised version of dissonance that makes use of its other, perhaps better known, definition. I just want to make it clear that while dissonant metal as we know it here may be incumbent on dissonant chord's presence as part of its make-up, it doesn't necessarily mean that the presence of dissonant chords instantly makes a band dissonant

Quote:
When I present avant-garde music to people who are unfamiliar with the subgenre - as is my wont - they note that the music is unusual, strange, or unstructured, leading me to conclude that descriptors harshness and inharmoniousness would only arise when attributed to the dissonant chords and would be most appropriate when such musical elements are present. I think dissonant metal is a term that will be understood by the masses because it is seen as synonymous with discord which brings about the notion of incongruity or inappropriateness.

I'm not really sure exactly what point you're making. I agree with it though, that avant-garde metal containing musical dissonance would be described as harsh and inharmonious, but if lacking those qualities would likely be described as odd, unstructured etc. No doubt any avant-garde metal with a dissonant overtone would be perfect for this list. I don't think that's ever been in dispute.

Quote:

Semantics considered, I suppose you could call this harsh and inharmonious, but not in sound, more in structure and progression. Chaos can always be contained and structured so I see no issue in describing this music as so, despite that I wouldn't do so myself. To the inexperienced ear such music will always be chaotic. In any case, I was merely musing on a more appropriate descriptor for this particular style. I think I've settled on inappropriate metal

Well, for me, the idea of controlled chaos is an oxymoron because once something is under control is no longer chaos. It does however work descriptively, visually etc. so If this list were called "Controlled Chaos" I would be ok with it but to me it would seem like a dumbing down of sorts of the title already in use as people like myself find a resonance of sort with the idea of dissonant metal, as opposed to chaotic metal which could encompass more things.

Written by LeKiwi on 09.11.2013 at 00:23


I realise that most prog sounds nothing like this, but the concept of progressive certainly overlaps with this music with regards to unconventional structure and musical progression and the like. I suppose if we stretch the definition of dissonance, then this is an apt title Meh, I'm done with semantics, I only wanted to point out the musical term of dissonance and I've lost myself in another pointless discussion

This has not been a pointless discussion up to now
I can understand that the concept of prog metal overlaps with some bands (perhaps most of them) here but I think this similarity is superficial. The intention of bands here is not same as most of prog metal acts and while I do not care about what bands think about their music when it comes to classification most of the time, this fact cannot be overlooked here. For instance, I believe that some of artists on this list use the type of dissonant that Joe and me are mostly concerned with as a way to make their music "darker" and not essentially making complex and "explicitly intelligent" music, as progressive metal is mostly known for. Additionally, dissonant music here does not need to be complex. For instance, Blut aus Nord's, which is one of the prominent and most influential dissonant bands is not a technically complex band and its frontman has clearly stated that he is not interested in technical approach. This contradicts with the cliche image of prog metal (which I hate). Furthermore, unusual structures which is most of the time exchanged with complexity, is only one of the trademarks of prog metal bands. Calling a band prog metal just because its songs have unusual structures is not true I guess. In the other words, these bands differ from progressive metal acts not only in the appearance of their music, but also in their approach and reason for dissonance. All in all, I'd say that these bands have more in common with avantgarde metal than progressive metal.
One more thing: I am sure that masses would not understand dissonant metal properly (referring to your reply to Joe). I've been accused to listening to "noise" when I was actually having regular, rather clean death metal and people around actually use words such as noise, discordant and even dissonant in order to insult my musical taste. Most of people outside of metal cannot properly hear different musical elements such as bass, drum, lead and rhythm guitar in extreme metal and distinguish them.

Written by Erik M. on 09.11.2013 at 00:24

I guess that also has got something to do with OCD.

What's OCD? :|

Quote:

Written by mz on 09.11.2013 at 01:15

What's OCD? :|

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Also think most of Mories' projects could go on here too.

Quote:

Written by Guest on 09.11.2013 at 01:16

Written by mz on 09.11.2013 at 01:15

What's OCD? :|

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Yep... it's not as bad as it sounds though, but I still "suffer" from it. It's nicely combined with my perfectionism too.