Written by Erik M. on 09.09.2014 at 22:50


Yeah, that makes sense. But the problem here is that we apparently don't have the same idea of the word "overrated". I'm all for a more objective approach, but what word would you use when you like an album much less than "most people"? In that case I simply use the word "overrated", because in my view (opinion) the album isn't as good as other people believe it is, yet I'm not saying they're wrong. That would be hypocritical, since both sides are giving their opinions, even though the one claiming it's overrated is in the minority. It's just a disagreement with the general consensus. In some cases it might be possible to call an album overrated, but in some other cases it might be a simple case of enjoying it less, or not at all. This semantics business isn't the easiest thing to tackle, that's for sure.

When most people use the term I tend to overlook it because they obviously mean their taste in opposition to other's, though I'd still argue it's not necessarily a useful way to use the term. Clearly, in this instance of this list, the term takes on another meaning when you rally together a whole bunch of classically regarded albums and declare them overrated. Semantics won't save God-whatsit from my probing questions

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 09.09.2014 at 20:53

Where is the traffic cop ? I have been harassed verbally incessantly recently.

You have totally NOT been harassed at all

Written by deadone on 10.09.2014 at 04:08

Written by Erik M. on 09.09.2014 at 21:25


Burden of proof? We're not in a court here, nor are we discussing religious beliefs.

Actually it would appear Godbuster is being judged on his beliefs/opininios - he has essentially been labelled an idiot for not liking these albums and stating they're overrated. This doesn't happen to other people who post these kind of things (and indeed some of the people posting here have written off classics as garbage before).

Let me just try to clarify why it is Godbuster is being attacked so profusely (because I think you're misunderstanding the point). Actually, the primary reason Godbuster is being judged is because his methods of evaluation seem to be suspect (see Joe's response about the bands Godbuster feels have been rendered superfluous by more modern metal developments, his statement that Iron Maiden owe their reputation to the graphic designers, and his list of MS users as nostalgists that you ever seem to disagree with). That's not to mention the non-metal related things he talked about (including a misunderstanding regarding the burden of proof that should make every rational person facepalm, and a pointless Obama reference that proves he cannot make coherent analogies). Almost all of the rationale we have seen so far have consisted of the rare "this band is childish" argument, and he has made very few attempts to elaborate on his positions, which means his list isn't exactly the most constructive or interesting for us metalheads eager for rational discussion. Had his rationale been substantiated thoroughly to the point where we could see where he was coming from, I think we may have had a decent conversation and wouldn't resort to simply ridiculing him. His whining doesn't help matters at all, and his victim complex has become an irritant. Like you said, many of us don't like the albums on this list either, but to say that they are "overrated" requires some substantiated opinions.

And yes, this intense dissection of someone's opinions happens virtually all of the time on MS when people cannot substantiate their points; even I've been subjected to the criticism of a community on matters when it was clear I couldn't argue my points, and I've had to admit my flawed sense of logic/flawed opinions. Sometimes, when you're a fan boy for something (say, Fen), you minimize something great (like the influential debut) just because you think the album afterwards is better, and I should be appropriately called out for doing so. This dissection happens with users like you that may not find opinions similar to the general consensus of the metalheads on this site, but to your credit, you could at least justify some of your points and elaborated about the reasons underlying your decisions. Godbuster has done virtually none of that, and like Marcel said, he has not been "verbally harrassed".

No matter what essence this list have I really think it should go into "Total Dick Awards". The drama and poor defense by God Buster has made the overall scene hilarious.

This one is a good proof.

Written by Guest on 25.08.2014 at 20:04

Quote:

...Actually, the primary reason Godbuster is being judged is because his methods of evaluation seem to be suspect (...his statement that Iron Maiden owe their reputation to the graphic designers, and his list of MS users as nostalgists...
1) Do I have to follow your standards of evaluation ?
I am making "my list" here but not helping you to make "your list". Bear in mind...
2) There's nothing wrong saying that Iron Maiden is damn commercial, the label spent a lot of money on the magazine ads in the past 20 years. Even when they have not come out with any material in these 3-4 years they're still haunting you. Check carefully, they have appeared on Metal Hammer's cover 3 times in the last 12 months.

...That's not to mention the non-metal related things he talked about (including a misunderstanding regarding the burden of proof that should make every rational person facepalm, and a pointless Obama reference that proves he cannot make coherent analogies).
1) What ? You called yourself a rational person ? You're more like an extremist.
Stop bullshitting around, "The burden of proof" was refered to ask you stop being annoying and command me doing anything to please yourself. If you want to prove me wrong then the burden is on you, you prove it. Not me.
2) Obama is only an example, I just posted ONCE and you posted 3-4 unrelated Obama topics and kept bringing out the subject matter all the time, more or less like trying to make this a big issue.
Your old women's behaviour is really childish. Go and play your video games with Joe and stop creating trouble. My list is simple as other posters and nothing will be added on.

Almost all of the rationale we have seen so far have consisted of the rare "this band is childish" argument, and he has made very few attempts to elaborate on his positions, which means his list isn't exactly the most constructive or interesting for us metalheads eager for rational discussion.
1) Childish composition was my first impression to that album, it might be harsh...therefore I had reconstructed my opinion later as simple, single layer and weak textures. Again, don't purposely try to make it a big issue here.
2) And the rest of your arguement...I don't know what are you talking about.

Had his rationale been substantiated thoroughly to the point where we could see where he was coming from, I think we may have had a decent conversation and wouldn't resort to simply ridiculing him. His whining doesn't help matters at all, and his victim complex has become an irritant. Like you said, many of us don't like the albums on this list either, but to say that they are "overrated" requires some substantiated opinions.
1) "Where do i come from" and "victim complex" decides if someone like these albums or not ? You should go and do a mental check up.
2) I have said it 1 hundred times, Competition & Elimination !
Those were good in the 90's in term of performance, I liked them too, but now in 2014, If anyone still think they're masterpieces then I would say they overrate these albums. I didn't deny their influeces at all...I am talking about the performance.

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 10.09.2014 at 08:37

No matter what essence this list have I really think it should go into "Total Dick Awards". The drama and poor defense by God Buster has made the overall scene hilarious.

This one is a good proof.

Written by Guest on 25.08.2014 at 20:04

Welcome ! You're a newcomer.
I had explained it long ago, you can go back and check again. I am not going to explain it once more.

Written by deadone on 10.09.2014 at 06:29

Written by Diverge on 10.09.2014 at 05:30

Personally I view this list as a opinion list - he is entitled to it. I can understand where he is coming from and I like most of the albums on the list.

Quote:
This dissection happens with users like you that may not find opinions similar to the general consensus of the metalheads on this site

...some posters are picked on too - Godbuster, Bestmetalstormer, Bad English and Paw are examples of this. Incidentally none of them seem to have English as a first language.

Basically I am not good at writting in any language, I am really not into writting.
I like short and direct statements therefore most of the people who have English as a first language knew immediately it was not my mother tongue even the conversation is short and without gramatical mistakes, becuase the "ways of expression" are different.

I went to France, whenever I talked English people there immediately showed me sour faces, implied me "Are you trying to insult me ? You don't agree with French ? Why should I talk English ? Talk French !".
Same situation here, "You don't agree with Death, Iron Maiden, Deicide...? Are you trying to insult us ? Where the hell are you from ? Your belief doesn't look promising...you know ? Go and change it, better off having your brain-transplant".
You have to bear the oppressions from "majority" if you're holding different opinions.

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 10:22

I went to France, whenever I talked English people there immediately showed me sour faces, implied me "Are you trying to insult me ? You don't agree with French ? Why should I talk English ? Talk French !".

Boy, you have imagination. It's the use of analogies like this that get you negative attention, not your opinions. Everyone here said they were okay with your opinions, it's just the way you present the list, act very defensive and don't back your claims that is causing problems.

Written by deadone on 10.09.2014 at 04:08

he has essentially been labelled an idiot for not liking these albums and stating they're overrated.

Personally I view this list as a opinion list - he is entitled to it. I can understand where he is coming from and I like most of the albums on the list.

Hilariously hypocritical coming from you given a) the amount of grief you've given me for not including a Carcass album in a best of UK death metal list, as well as endless moaning about a lack of interest I have in older metal, and b) the very fact you made a topic and endlessly defended it about the fact there is no such thing as overrated music. It's a tragic state of affairs that you would align yourself with someone like God Buster just to be the "other" person against a few members here.

Quote:
It's not paranoia or "victim complex" but rather reality.

I think we established long ago than you live in a different reality to most other people. Once again you're choosing a reality marred by non-logic just to make a point that doesn't need to be made, and to continue the "deadone against the world" agenda you've had since you joined the site.

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 10:22

You have to bear the oppressions from "majority" if you're holding different opinions.

No not really, but I can't imagine how some of these albums which are listed here are under the worst metal albums ever ? For example. I don't like Megadeth at all, but I know there are many die hard fans for them, but I can easily support my opinion how this thrash metal could never get enough attention from my side. But at the same time I can't name of them the worst metal ever, Hmm ? Basically you gathered here most of the albums which were influential or had gained so much attention from wide range of listeners not just their fans you know. However, you still have all the rights to hate all of them, but it was good if you could exactly argue what is so unfavorable about these albums?

Written by Ilham on 10.09.2014 at 13:11

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 10:22

I went to France, whenever I talked English people there immediately showed me sour faces, implied me "Are you trying to insult me ? You don't agree with French ? Why should I talk English ? Talk French !".

Boy, you have imagination. It's the use of analogies like this that get you negative attention, not your opinions. Everyone here said they were okay with your opinions, it's just the way you present the list, act very defensive and don't back your claims that is causing problems.

Boy...
- I am pretty sure my puberty is over as it just didn't grow bigger...
...Everyone here said they were okay with your opinions"....
- Are you sure ? There're still few ghosts haunting me and claiming they're representatives of majority.
...act very defensive...
- I am not defensive at all, I have nothing to defend because opinions in music are perceptive

Written by angel. on 10.09.2014 at 13:44

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 10:22

You have to bear the oppressions from "majority" if you're holding different opinions.

No not really, but I can't imagine how some of these albums which are listed here are under the worst metal albums ever ? For example. I don't like Megadeth at all, but I know there are many die hard fans for them, but I can easily support my opinion how this thrash metal could never get enough attention from my side. But at the same time I can't name of them the worst metal ever, Hmm ? Basically you gathered here most of the albums which were influential or had gained so much attention from wide range of listeners not just their fans you know. However, you still have all the rights to hate all of them, but it was good if you could exactly argue what is so unfavorable about these albums?

In the public eye Metal is underground, in metalheads eye I am underground. You don't explain how good is metal to your friends who don't listen to metal, same theory applied. I am just more underground than "commercial metalheads".

Thinking modern day metal evolutions null and voids their precursors has absolutely nothing to do with being an underground metaller. Please stop giving groups of people a bad name by association.

I'm not going to respond to everything you wrote because frankly about half of it was absolutely garbage. Whether it was telling me to get a mental check up, to play video games with Joe, and even calling me an old woman, you rarely contributed to the conversation. Also, using "woman" as an insult is a practice you should reconsider, because it's deplorable. So I'll just bring up one or two points that should be taken into account if you want to improve this list for the general public. If you want this list to be hated almost universally, you can disregard what I have to say.

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 09:46

1) Do I have to follow your standards of evaluation ?
I am making "my list" here but not helping you to make "your list". Bear in mind...

Your opinions are subjective, but they should considered in an objective way. Some basic variables to consider include musicianship, songwriting, degree of originality, etc., and your response should take the historical time of the album into account. Some of the older albums radically changed the possibilities that metal musicians saw available to them. If any album you hate appears to have influenced a lot of great albums or even entire genres of music, you should naturally hesitate to include them in a list like this. I'm not questioning any of your opinions at the moment, but you should be ready to carefully explain why any given album on this list was placed there to begin with. If you ask almost anyone who makes lists, they will tell you precisely why an album is on their list and it provokes discussion. And if you realize maybe you were a little hasty including an album to your list, you should have an open mind and remove it. List making is a hard thing to do, and I'm certainly no master of it; I would consider asking Hex_Omega, Erik M, Joe, etc. etc. for advice and how you could improve. Ultimately if you're publishing a list, you're doing it for a personal reason but because it's a public domain people will naturally want to discuss the albums you placed there.

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 09:46

2) I have said it 1 hundred times, Competition & Elimination !
Those were good in the 90's in term of performance, I liked them too, but now in 2014, If anyone still think they're masterpieces then I would say they overrate these albums. I didn't deny their influeces at all...I am talking about the performance.

You haven't justified this method of evaluation because we have failed to see how bands like Metallica, Black Sabbath, etc. have performances that pale in comparision to today's modern bands. Even the term "performance" is far too vague when you're encompassing so many genres. What does performance mean in doom metal? What about death metal? What about thrash? In terms of pure technicality, many thrash bands going today have far less skill than Metallica ever did. I also think that a consideration of music as "competition and elimination" is just far too hostile an approach, and I highly doubt any thrash metal band would go about trashing Metallica and the innovative bands that created thrash the moment they played faster than them. Rating with a sense of what each album brought to the table is more than just a convention; it's one of the primary ways you can engage with metalheads over the Internet, and by adopting your way of analyzing music, you are automatically restricting yourself from many conversations.

Written by Diverge on 11.09.2014 at 00:02

....frankly about half of it was absolutely garbage....

- Then ignore this garbage don't be a garbage man ! You have been nagging too much on this list.

Your opinions are subjective, but they should considered in an objective way....

- Stop all contradictory statements. Are you sure you are ok ? ...certainly no lunatic will call himself a lunatic, sorry Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is not a game for me.

If any album you hate appears to have influenced a lot of great albums or even entire genres of music, you should....

- I don't hate any album in my life, I have said that hundreds times I owned these albums and they're still well-kept in my CD rack. If you have no intention to read or understand the entire situation then don't write so much of your own philosophy here.

...and I'm certainly no master of it; I would consider asking Hex_Omega, Erik M, Joe, etc. etc. for advice and how you could improve.

- Unfortunately I have to turn down your offer as I don't need any professional consultation in order to improve myself at the moment. Thanks.

Ultimately if you're publishing a list, you're doing it for a personal reason but because it's a public domain people will naturally want to discuss the albums you placed there.

- Be my guest, go ahead you guys should tell everybody why those albums are still considered masterpieces in 2014, no one is going to stop you. In fact I would be very happy to see more positive and encouraging points to change my perception.

...Even the term "performance" is far too vague when you're encompassing so many genres. What does performance mean in doom metal? What about death metal? What about thrash?

- Go and ask your master, Joe.

In terms of pure technicality, many thrash bands going today have far less skill than Metallica ever did.

- The most stupid statement I have ever seen in my life ! After Cliff Burton died Metallica became nothing ! Metallica just made use of Cliff's tragic death to boast the sales of Master of Puppets and ...And Jutice For All. Many albums adorned by majority actually are "underground commercial albums". Becuase they're "commercial" so that many people (listeners & musicians) got the chance to buy and listen to their work so that they had the opportunity "to be influenced". Are they the BEST because they influenced somebody ? I leave it to you.

Wow, Diverge is a far more respectful and polite person than I am yet you speak to him with same disregard and disdain as you do me. I'm trying to resist the urge to call you an idiot again as all I can see above is a bunch of unrelated non-answers and a bunch of direct and unnecessary insults to fair questions. Yeah, you're an idiot. Not because of this list, not because of your tastes, but because you are quite plainly an idiot of the highest magnitude.

Written by Guest on 11.09.2014 at 11:26

Wow, Diverge is a far more respectful and polite person than I am yet you speak to him with same disregard and disdain as you do me. I'm trying to resist the urge to call you an idiot again as all I can see above is a bunch of unrelated non-answers and a bunch of direct and unnecessary insults to fair questions. Yeah, you're an idiot. Not because of this list, not because of your tastes, but because you are quite plainly an idiot of the highest magnitude.

What a relief to me !Great to see you finally could use such a short and concise term "idiot" to make a conclusion here.
Let the "majority" to decide if your "Wisdom" is "Overrated" (by yourself). I have nothing to say. Good luck !

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 11.09.2014 at 10:18

Your opinions are subjective, but they should considered in an objective way....
- Stop all contradictory statements. Are you sure you are ok ? ...certainly no lunatic will call himself a lunatic, sorry Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is not a game for me.

I'll just ignore all the insults and try to address the one point you clearly didn't understand in our conversation.

Our opinions are clearly subjective. You can clearly put whatever albums you want on this list and you have the liberty to choose them from an entire database (Metal Storm) or from anywhere on the Internet.

But sometimes our opinions are be deceiving. We can like things a lot even if there are, on the surface of the record, flaws. Perhaps the production is abysmal and doesn't always help convey the music in an effective way. Maybe the vocalist is inconsistent from track to track. Maybe a band with a high amount of technical skill simply doesn't have the songwriting abilities to show this for an entire album's duration. Any great things should be noted as well, especially if the albums appear to have influenced other acts you have heard of. Taking your opinion and subjecting it to these criticisms is precisely what I mean by objective. It's like filtering out the initial euphoria you might get when you first start listening, and thinking about what exactly you're listening to with a critical mind. Pretend you are writing a review of the album, even (which you should, especially with an album on the list that seems unjustified to most people), and try to describe it objectively in your review.

People it seems wisest to stop feeding the troll.

Written by Diverge on 11.09.2014 at 14:03

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 11.09.2014 at 10:18

Your opinions are subjective, but they should considered in an objective way....
- Stop all contradictory statements. Are you sure you are ok ? ...certainly no lunatic will call himself a lunatic, sorry Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is not a game for me.

Our opinions are clearly subjective. You can clearly put whatever albums you want on this list and you have the liberty to choose them from an entire database (Metal Storm) or from anywhere on the Internet.

But sometimes our opinions are be deceiving. We can like things a lot even if there are, on the surface of the record, flaws. Perhaps the production is abysmal and doesn't always help convey the music in an effective way. Maybe the vocalist is inconsistent from track to track. Maybe a band with a high amount of technical skill simply doesn't have the songwriting abilities to show this for an entire album's duration. Any great things should be noted as well, especially if the albums appear to have influenced other acts you have heard of. Taking your opinion and subjecting it to these criticisms is precisely what I mean by objective. It's like filtering out the initial euphoria you might get when you first start listening, and thinking about what exactly you're listening to with a critical mind. Pretend you are writing a review of the album, even (which you should, especially with an album on the list that seems unjustified to most people), and try to describe it objectively in your review.

Good to hear that, this comment definitely sounds more polite, open minded and less agressive, extreme and compulsive.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 11.09.2014 at 14:30

People it seems wisest to stop feeding the troll.

But its so much fun!

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 09:59

I had explained it long ago, you can go back and check again. I am not going to explain it once more.

The fact remains that you TOTALLY contradict yourself. And trying to explain something like this and think you can explain it, is beyond me. Ever heard of "logic"? Well, your highly inconsistent ratings are the opposite of that. It makes ZERO sense.

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 09:46

2) And the rest of your arguement...I don't know what are you talking about.

I get the feeling you're simply unable to comprehend and/or understand a lot of things that are said here, while they certainly are perfectly clear, since what Diverge said was also 100% clear yet you don't know what he's talking about (or you're just saying that because you don't know how to reply to is/don't want to reply to it). This is a huge factor and it results in confusion and misconceptions very easily, as this thread has proven lots of times already.

Written by Diverge on 11.09.2014 at 00:02

I would consider asking Hex_Omega, Erik M, Joe, etc. etc. for advice and how you could improve. Ultimately if you're publishing a list, you're doing it for a personal reason but because it's a public domain people will naturally want to discuss the albums you placed there.

Thanks for promoting me/my lists. For the record, I agree with your accurate explanation about (everything what's wrong with) this list and its creator.

Written by Erik M. on 11.09.2014 at 23:32

Written by Diverge on 11.09.2014 at 00:02

I would consider asking Hex_Omega, Erik M, Joe, etc. etc. for advice and how you could improve. Ultimately if you're publishing a list, you're doing it for a personal reason but because it's a public domain people will naturally want to discuss the albums you placed there.

Thanks for promoting me/my lists. For the record, I agree with your accurate explanation about (everything what's wrong with) this list and its creator.

My lists are better ._.

Written by Guest on 11.09.2014 at 23:36

My lists are better ._.

You keep telling yourself that.

Great. Now that God Buster completely understands the most important point of the posts I made, let's see how his list develops.
(I apologize in advance to Karlabos for stealing his popcorn).

Written by Erik M. on 11.09.2014 at 22:55

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 09:59

I had explained it long ago, you can go back and check again. I am not going to explain it once more.

The fact remains that you TOTALLY contradict yourself. And trying to explain something like this and think you can explain it, is beyond me. Ever heard of "logic"? Well, your highly inconsistent ratings are the opposite of that. It makes ZERO sense.

No contracdiction for asking people who are lazy to read the entire story to check carefully before repeating the old stuff.

Written by Erik M. on 11.09.2014 at 23:08

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 10.09.2014 at 09:46

2) And the rest of your arguement...I don't know what are you talking about.

I get the feeling you're simply unable to comprehend and/or understand a lot of things that are said here, while they certainly are perfectly clear, since what Diverge said was also 100% clear yet you don't know what he's talking about (or you're just saying that because you don't know how to reply to is/don't want to reply to it). This is a huge factor and it results in confusion and misconceptions very easily, as this thread has proven lots of times already.

Right ! I am not interested to answer your questions, I am not wasting my time. This list is only a list based on my personal opinions, there is no so called "answers" and "solutions". Your praised reviews on each album listed are welcomed to be posted here.

Written by Erik M. on 11.09.2014 at 23:32

Written by Diverge on 11.09.2014 at 00:02

I would consider asking Hex_Omega, Erik M, Joe, etc. etc. for advice and how you could improve. Ultimately if you're publishing a list, you're doing it for a personal reason but because it's a public domain people will naturally want to discuss the albums you placed there.

Thanks for promoting me/my lists. For the record, I agree with your accurate explanation about (everything what's wrong with) this list and its creator.

Everything is clear now...
Why are you so desperate for having more people to view your list ? What are you earning from there ? You're really childish.
You don't like my list mainly because what you rated high on your list were rated low on my list. More people agree with me will cause detriments to your...?