corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3650 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3650
If I was struggling to adequately describe Opeth's post-Watershed music, I found the right words right here. I see many of my own feelings about their work over the past 15 years reflected here. Particularly the choppiness and convolution (is that the right word?) of their music for seemingly no gain.
What I particularly take issue with is the "famous for being famous" aspect of it. I appreciate you trying to find standout moments in this album, but - as your review beautifully proves - enjoying Opeth has become an academic exercise where it used to be an almost automatic emotional response. I don't see anyone putting that much effort into enjoying any other band. It's clear that many people long for Opeth's Still Life - Ghost Reveries era, some even for their earlier work. But if it weren't for that reference, I doubt we'd even make note of them as a band today.
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Lord Slothrop
Posts: 415 |
29.11.2024 - 00:05Rating: 9
Maybe my opinion will change in time, but as of now I think this album is fantastic, close to a masterpiece even. I find it not only an enjoyable listen, but very interesting and dense with some beautiful production. I seem to find more to discover and like with each listen. Definitely not an extension of their past death metal era, but something more akin to Jethro Tull's A Passion Play, albeit heavier of course. I would love to see Akerfeldt continue the band on this trajectory and see where it leads.
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Arcticus
Posts: 191 |
Written by corrupt on 28.11.2024 at 21:54
But if it weren't for that reference, I doubt we'd even make note of them as a band today.
Apologies but I find takes like this to be utterly pointless (same with Metallica, Mastodon, any bands whose early stuff is considered classic). If it weren't for everything that came before, the band wouldn't be in the position it's in - they have earned their place with their past work, and if they have fans who are willing to "put effort in" to appreciate their newer material (imagine that!) then more power to them.
I don't know why people are expecting this album to sound like "classic" Opeth. I understand wanting it (I'm just as guilty of this as anyone), but wanting something and expecting it should be two very different things. They have obviously changed over the years, personally I feel that 'Watershed' was a step down already and that Mikael's fatigue with the style was starting to show through ("Porcelain Heart" in particular has always bugged me). So I can totally understand him wanting to do something different, even if I personally wasn't a huge fan; 'Pale Communion' was probably my favourite of the prog era but I haven't listened to any of them all that much. 'Sorceress' especially made me lose interest.
However after listening to this new album several times I can safely say that my love for Opeth has been fully rekindled. The production is some of the best I've heard, and while the songs aren't as memorable or hooky as their classic material there is still plenty to enjoy. I like that it takes longer to unpack and appreciate what is happening musically - it gives the album more replayability for me. There is still something about Mikael's songwriting (more so on this album than the past few) that ticks a lot of my mental boxes, and I just consider myself lucky that we got this album at all. I am very interested to see what comes next.
Oh, and Walt kicks ass on the drums. Just an absolute joy to listen to.
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gmorin
Posts: 49
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Couldn't get a feel for this album on the first 3 spins. Will try a couple more times next week, but there is no hook for me so far.
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The_Germinator
What we need is hatred. From it our ideas are born.
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Metal Spartan 78
Posts: 71
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I've given the album a few spins and can honestly say it's pretty great. Definitely the best since Watershed. Mix of old and new while having its own sound. It reminds me of Amorphis' "Elegy" or even Atheist's "Elements" with its jazz and prog influenced style of melodic death metal.
While their heavy prog rock era had some decent songs, overall I just found the albums uninteresting. This one definitely has memorable moments, and the closing track is the best ballad they've done in a long time.
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Cynic Metalhead Ambrish Saxena
Posts: 7623 |
Written by Arcticus on 29.11.2024 at 02:04
Written by corrupt on 28.11.2024 at 21:54
But if it weren't for that reference, I doubt we'd even make note of them as a band today.
I don't know why people are expecting this album to sound like "classic" Opeth. I understand wanting it (I'm just as guilty of this as anyone), but wanting something and expecting it should be two very different things.
I don't have to tell this horse sense, but Opeth is a big brand of the metal. Anything comes off it like this will get into line of comparisons with preceding albums. I do agree that folks inclined to have soft corner for such brands to be excessively desired and aligned with the classics, but reality hits hard like this new Opeth album that was nowhere near to be found. What I found amusing with ones here is jeopardizing old classics album over your emotions to see the new album.
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Lord Slothrop
Posts: 415 |
29.11.2024 - 09:24Rating: 9
Written by Metal Spartan 78 on 29.11.2024 at 04:43
This one definitely has memorable moments, and the closing track is the best ballad they've done in a long time.
Agreed. I have read from some that the last song was anti-climatic, but I thought it was a beautiful and moving way to end the album.
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Daniell _爱情_ ElitePosts: 6112 |
29.11.2024 - 09:29Rating: 8
I'm really glad that your great review sounds like a voice of reason among all those heaping praise on the album because it contains growling. Opeth haven't changed at all in their musical direction. The music is what they've been playing since Watershed - I agree with you on this point by the way. Watershed was the first album of Newpeth, cleverly camouflaged to sound like Oldpeth. All it took to fool people was heavily distorted guitars and growling. Even the title of the album was saying something, at least to an attentive listener/reader. Whoever hopes that Opeth will go back to their old style is in for a disappointment further down the line. Growls are all that you will get I'm afraid.
As for the album - I can't say anything that hasn't been said before. Impressive through and through, full of ideas, cleverly constructed and arranged, masterfully executed and produced. But leaves me cold and fails to move me. "The Moor" has more feeling and emotions that this whole album put together. The word "overintellectualized" is the best way to summarize this album. Around 7.7 is the highest I can give, I'll round up to 8.
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Arcticus
Posts: 191 |
Written by Cynic Metalhead on 29.11.2024 at 08:05
Written by Arcticus on 29.11.2024 at 02:04
Written by corrupt on 28.11.2024 at 21:54
But if it weren't for that reference, I doubt we'd even make note of them as a band today.
I don't know why people are expecting this album to sound like "classic" Opeth. I understand wanting it (I'm just as guilty of this as anyone), but wanting something and expecting it should be two very different things.
I don't have to tell this horse sense, but Opeth is a big brand of the metal. Anything comes off it like this will get into line of comparisons with preceding albums. I do agree that folks inclined to have soft corner for such brands to be excessively desired and aligned with the classics, but reality hits hard like this new Opeth album that was nowhere near to be found. What I found amusing with ones here is jeopardizing old classics album over your emotions to see the new album.
None of this made any sense to me.
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MikeVonDoom
Posts: 350 |
This new album is as pointless as the fuss around the change in vocals. Basically is the same prog rock BS with adapt vocals, which lead me to think that they did it on purpose just to shut some hard-core fans. I utterly dislike Mikael's _operatic_ vocals trend! The fakery is strong.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3650 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3650
Written by Arcticus on 29.11.2024 at 02:04
Apologies but I find takes like this to be utterly pointless (same with Metallica, Mastodon, any bands whose early stuff is considered classic). If it weren't for everything that came before, the band wouldn't be in the position it's in - they have earned their place with their past work, and if they have fans who are willing to "put effort in" to appreciate their newer material (imagine that!) then more power to them.
I don't know why people are expecting this album to sound like "classic" Opeth. I understand wanting it (I'm just as guilty of this as anyone), but wanting something and expecting it should be two very different things. They have obviously changed over the years, personally I feel that 'Watershed' was a step down already and that Mikael's fatigue with the style was starting to show through ("Porcelain Heart" in particular has always bugged me). So I can totally understand him wanting to do something different, even if I personally wasn't a huge fan; 'Pale Communion' was probably my favourite of the prog era but I haven't listened to any of them all that much. 'Sorceress' especially made me lose interest.
No apologies necessary. I see what you mean, and that's definitely how we treat artists in general. It's more of a philosophical question of whether or not each work should be judged on its own merits. I tend to use a band's entire catalog as context, but I agree that sometimes an album just works. And yes, more power to people who find enjoyment in music however they do.
Catalog context is why I disagree with the "they've earned their place" sentiment. I'm not criticizing people who find genuine enjoyment in The Last Will And Testament, but those who try to find semblances of classic Opeth in it by any means necessary, including myself. My point is that if this were a no-name band's release, it probably wouldn't even raise most people's eyebrows. To me, it sounds and feels mostly like a theoretical musical experiment; like a whole bunch of pieces put together without forming something greater than its parts. I don't see a vision, and I can't make an emotional connection to it.
But I catch myself and accuse many others here of looking for that Opeth feeling, that sound, that coherence, that musical vision that allowed them to write songs and entire albums that are more than the sum of their parts. Much more. It seems to me that they don't know how to do that anymore and are just going with what's easy. Adding some growls to the mix for good measure and tuning the guitars a little lower, but ultimately not creating anything I find noteworthy. But they're Opeth, so here I am, desperately trying to rebuild my emotional connection and find words to describe this disconnect.
When you say you don't know why people are expecting this album to sound like classic Opeth, I say I don't understand how you wouldn't. Not necessarily expecting it, but wanting it to be true. To be able to access those old feelings through new material. Music means so many different things to so many people, and often that includes a para-social element. It definitely does for me, and it makes me go back to bands I used to love, where I wish I could just let go, let them do their thing, and accept that they lost me.
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Zap
Posts: 3589 |
Written by corrupt on 29.11.2024 at 11:34
My point is that if this were a no-name band's release, it probably wouldn't even raise most people's eyebrows.
One of my first thoughts when I finished listening to the album the first time was "If this was released as the debut album by a new band they would be on everyone's radar in no time". So I don't agree in the slightest. I think it might even have been received better if this was another band, because people aren't expecting Opeth.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3650 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3650
Written by Zap on 29.11.2024 at 14:31 One of my first thoughts when I finished listening to the album the first time was "If this was released as the debut album by a new band they would be on everyone's radar in no time". So I don't agree in the slightest. I think it might even have been received better if this was another band, because people aren't expecting Opeth.
Interesting. I mean, I get the point and I agree on the idea. Only the album feels pretty cold and lifeless to me. Care to share what it is that excites you that way?
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Zap
Posts: 3589 |
Written by corrupt on 29.11.2024 at 15:12
Interesting. I mean, I get the point and I agree on the idea. Only the album feels pretty cold and lifeless to me. Care to share what it is that excites you that way?
I think you're misinterpreting me. I said I think it would generally be well received as a new album by a new band, not that I think it would deserve such a reception That's just how I imagine people would react, but we'll never know.
To be clear, I do like the album, but it has its flaws and I agree with some of the complaints about it (lacking in good melodies, memorability, a bit all over the place at times). "Cold and lifeless" sounds pretty harsh to me, but it being quite dense and not lingering long on any single idea makes it hard to relate to, so I (think I) understand where you are coming from.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3650 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3650
Written by Zap on 29.11.2024 at 15:52
I think you're misinterpreting me. I said I think it would generally be well received as a new album by a new band, not that I think it would deserve such a reception That's just how I imagine people would react, but we'll never know.
Ah right! My bad.
I don't mean to be harsh about the album. It's definitely not terrible. I enjoy parts of it, but in the way musclassia described in the review. I need to go and look for small sections I enjoy. And I can't help comparing that to my Blackwater Park experience.
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Zap
Posts: 3589 |
Written by corrupt on 29.11.2024 at 15:56
I don't mean to be harsh about the album. It's definitely not terrible. I enjoy parts of it, but in the way musclassia described in the review. I need to go and look for small sections I enjoy. And I can't help comparing that to my Blackwater Park experience.
Fair enough. I don't have this feeling that I need to "look for" sections to enjoy, but if small sections are all I could like about this then I wouldn't be enthusiastic about it either.
I enjoy "§1", "§3", "§6", "§7" and "A Story Never Told" quite a lot in their entirety thankfully.
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ForestsAlive
Posts: 42 |
29.11.2024 - 19:29Rating: 6
To me, the reviewer got it absolutely right! I listened to the album three times just because the production is so charming. However, those majestic melodies, those hooks, that beautiful voice and that atmosphere of the golden era is simply not there.
Akerfeldt writes in a completely different way for the past 15 years, from the structure to the modes. He draws inspiration from 70s prog rather than 90s doom/gothic and that removes so much of the gravitas.
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Erik M. 2.0
Posts: 29
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30.11.2024 - 00:09Rating: 7
Written by Arcticus on 29.11.2024 at 11:02
Written by Cynic Metalhead on 29.11.2024 at 08:05
I don't have to tell this horse sense, but Opeth is a big brand of the metal. Anything comes off it like this will get into line of comparisons with preceding albums. I do agree that folks inclined to have soft corner for such brands to be excessively desired and aligned with the classics, but reality hits hard like this new Opeth album that was nowhere near to be found. What I found amusing with ones here is jeopardizing old classics album over your emotions to see the new album.
None of this made any sense to me.
He probably thinks he sounds smart, but in reality he makes zero sense like you pointed out. Also, what is "horse sense"?
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prnzokoshiroltra
Posts: 73 |
My fav album of all-time is Mr. Bungle - "Disco Volante" - one of the most iconic and infamous representations of 'kitchen-sink jumpcut avant-garde', so Mikael's or other artsy-glorified-novelties or perceived-wankfests' writing styles (such as the fact I favor Death"s "The Sound of Perserverance" over "Symbolic") I suppose strike me as more coherent n cohesive than they do for a much larger chunk of listeners out there (would also explain why my own stuff can come off so abstract/random/obtuse)... so sometimes what I like can be appreciated n stand out on the strengths of criterion combinations that will sometimes even surprise myself....
...where am I goin with this? well, for all that buildup to how I actually processed this album or any point I was gonna attempt making clear... Mikael's style of writing has been a good helping of stilted hit-or-miss fool's-gold-or-makeshift-ramshackle to my perspective's ears with occasional approaches and motifs that succeed... sometimes ideas workin in spite of themselves n the willful webbed implementation that can only be (educatedly?) guessed at.... but in my opinion, Watershed was sparsely-riddled halfassery and Heritage was disjointed n stylistically dubious n Sorceress maybe was thematically unsound (but the blatant retro-revivalisms of it didn't irk me as much as it apparently did many others...). Pale Communion, In Caude Venenum and The Last Will and Testament were entertaining enough to justify an ease-up on nitpickery n overall get the horns at least risen to sideways vertice --m/ and there - that's my overblown overprefaced conclusion n I'm stickin to it till hindsight makes me hate everything lol
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No one can fend off 100 multi-colored Draculas
not even Count Chocula or Vlad's Dad (Fat Drac)
maybe Leslie Nielsen: Dead & Lovin EET
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Erik M. 2.0
Posts: 29
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30.11.2024 - 08:58Rating: 7
Written by prnzokoshiroltra on 30.11.2024 at 04:12
My fav album of all-time is Mr. Bungle - "Disco Volante" - one of the most iconic and infamous representations of 'kitchen-sink jumpcut avant-garde', so Mikael's or other artsy-glorified-novelties or perceived-wankfests' writing styles (such as the fact I favor Death"s "The Sound of Perserverance" over "Symbolic") I suppose strike me as more coherent n cohesive than they do for a much larger chunk of listeners out there (would also explain why my own stuff can come off so abstract/random/obtuse)... so sometimes what I like can be appreciated n stand out on the strengths of criterion combinations that will sometimes even surprise myself....
...where am I goin with this? well, for all that buildup to how I actually processed this album or any point I was gonna attempt making clear... Mikael's style of writing has been a good helping of stilted hit-or-miss fool's-gold-or-makeshift-ramshackle to my perspective's ears with occasional approaches and motifs that succeed... sometimes ideas workin in spite of themselves n the willful webbed implementation that can only be (educatedly?) guessed at.... but in my opinion, Watershed was sparsely-riddled halfassery and Heritage was disjointed n stylistically dubious n Sorceress maybe was thematically unsound (but the blatant retro-revivalisms of it didn't irk me as much as it apparently did many others...). Pale Communion, In Caude Venenum and The Last Will and Testament were entertaining enough to justify an ease-up on nitpickery n overall get the horns at least risen to sideways vertice --m/ and there - that's my overblown overprefaced conclusion n I'm stickin to it till hindsight makes me hate everything lol
Interesting read. Are you perhaps Eugene from The Walking Dead? Because that's the voice I hear in my head when I read your message.
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qnick90
Posts: 106 |
30.11.2024 - 09:52Rating: 9
Martin Mendez said. "When we stopped with the growls, everyone was complaining, now we stopped with acoustic guitars and no one is complaining"...
Well I am! This album is probably the least melodic the have ever released. The progressivness of Opeth stemmed not primarily from growls/singing contrast, but from weird and unexpected chords and transitions.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3650 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3650
Written by qnick90 on 30.11.2024 at 09:52
Martin Mendez said. "When we stopped with the growls, everyone was complaining, now we stopped with acoustic guitars and no one is complaining"...
Well I am! This album is probably the least melodic the have ever released. The progressivness of Opeth stemmed not primarily from growls/singing contrast, but from weird and unexpected chords and transitions.
You still gave it a 9 though?
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prnzokoshiroltra
Posts: 73 |
Written by Erik M. 2.0 on 30.11.2024 at 08:58
Written by prnzokoshiroltra on 30.11.2024 at 04:12
My fav album of all-time is Mr. Bungle - "Disco Volante" - one of the most iconic and infamous representations of 'kitchen-sink jumpcut avant-garde', so Mikael's or other artsy-glorified-novelties or perceived-wankfests' writing styles (such as the fact I favor Death"s "The Sound of Perserverance" over "Symbolic") I suppose strike me as more coherent n cohesive than they do for a much larger chunk of listeners out there (would also explain why my own stuff can come off so abstract/random/obtuse)... so sometimes what I like can be appreciated n stand out on the strengths of criterion combinations that will sometimes even surprise myself....
...where am I goin with this? well, for all that buildup to how I actually processed this album or any point I was gonna attempt making clear... Mikael's style of writing has been a good helping of stilted hit-or-miss fool's-gold-or-makeshift-ramshackle to my perspective's ears with occasional approaches and motifs that succeed... sometimes ideas workin in spite of themselves n the willful webbed implementation that can only be (educatedly?) guessed at.... but in my opinion, Watershed was sparsely-riddled halfassery and Heritage was disjointed n stylistically dubious n Sorceress maybe was thematically unsound (but the blatant retro-revivalisms of it didn't irk me as much as it apparently did many others...). Pale Communion, In Caude Venenum and The Last Will and Testament were entertaining enough to justify an ease-up on nitpickery n overall get the horns at least risen to sideways vertice --m/ and there - that's my overblown overprefaced conclusion n I'm stickin to it till hindsight makes me hate everything lol
Interesting read. Are you perhaps Eugene from The Walking Dead? Because that's the voice I hear in my head when I read your message.
was he the guy with the crossbow? or was he the leader guy who was startin to slowly turn into a cold-blooded badass? dunno only saw 1st couple seasons of that show xD
maybe Mikael should return to Bloodbath for an album and re-connect with death metal n more straight-fwd, intuitive songcraftage (n give poor Nick's aging growls a break to heal)
----
No one can fend off 100 multi-colored Draculas
not even Count Chocula or Vlad's Dad (Fat Drac)
maybe Leslie Nielsen: Dead & Lovin EET
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Arcticus
Posts: 191 |
Written by corrupt on 29.11.2024 at 11:34
No apologies necessary. I see what you mean, and that's definitely how we treat artists in general. It's more of a philosophical question of whether or not each work should be judged on its own merits. I tend to use a band's entire catalog as context, but I agree that sometimes an album just works. And yes, more power to people who find enjoyment in music however they do.
Catalog context is why I disagree with the "they've earned their place" sentiment. I'm not criticizing people who find genuine enjoyment in The Last Will And Testament, but those who try to find semblances of classic Opeth in it by any means necessary, including myself. My point is that if this were a no-name band's release, it probably wouldn't even raise most people's eyebrows. To me, it sounds and feels mostly like a theoretical musical experiment; like a whole bunch of pieces put together without forming something greater than its parts. I don't see a vision, and I can't make an emotional connection to it.
But I catch myself and accuse many others here of looking for that Opeth feeling, that sound, that coherence, that musical vision that allowed them to write songs and entire albums that are more than the sum of their parts. Much more. It seems to me that they don't know how to do that anymore and are just going with what's easy. Adding some growls to the mix for good measure and tuning the guitars a little lower, but ultimately not creating anything I find noteworthy. But they're Opeth, so here I am, desperately trying to rebuild my emotional connection and find words to describe this disconnect.
When you say you don't know why people are expecting this album to sound like classic Opeth, I say I don't understand how you wouldn't. Not necessarily expecting it, but wanting it to be true. To be able to access those old feelings through new material. Music means so many different things to so many people, and often that includes a para-social element. It definitely does for me, and it makes me go back to bands I used to love, where I wish I could just let go, let them do their thing, and accept that they lost me.
Thanks for the measured response, I appreciate you not jumping down my throat for disagreeing with you
Regarding the "earned their place" thing I certainly don't mean that bands should just get a free pass, or that albums should not be judged on their own merits - they absolutely should. But even as a thought experiment, the phrase "if this were a no-name band's release" just doesn't make any sense to me, because no other band would release this album, just as no other band would have released St Anger, or whatever famous (or infamous) album you want to pick. I suppose your term 'catalog context' is what I'm talking about, and I just don't think it can be ignored. Each band's journey (musically, personally, spiritually, whatever) leads them to write and release the music that they do, and no other band would produce the same product, even if they were directly trying to imitate someone - it would still be that band's interpretation. Sorry if I'm rambling a bit, I'm just trying to get all my thoughts out.
I think what I was getting at with not expecting it to sound like classic Opeth was that if you had listened to the two advance tracks, you could clearly tell that it wasn't going to sound like Blackwater Park, so expecting something like that from the album when it dropped, after 4-5 months of hearing §1 & 3, just seems unreasonable to me. I get wanting that emotional connection - or re-connection - but that's exactly what I said: that wanting something and expecting it are very different.
I'm very tired at the moment and my brain isn't quite up for continuing this right now, but if I manage to put some more coherent thoughts together I will come back later and try to explain myself more clearly and respond to your well-made points.
Cheers
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qnick90
Posts: 106 |
01.12.2024 - 16:17Rating: 9
Written by corrupt on 30.11.2024 at 13:50
Written by qnick90 on 30.11.2024 at 09:52
Martin Mendez said. "When we stopped with the growls, everyone was complaining, now we stopped with acoustic guitars and no one is complaining"...
Well I am! This album is probably the least melodic the have ever released. The progressivness of Opeth stemmed not primarily from growls/singing contrast, but from weird and unexpected chords and transitions.
You still gave it a 9 though?
Welp, it´s not 10/10 sadly...
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X-FrEaK
Posts: 288 |
02.12.2024 - 11:33Rating: 6
While the review touches on a lot of good points, and I agree with basically everything that is said, I dont see how agreeing with the lack of memorable moments can result in a 7.8. For me thats what music is about, be it metal, or any other genre, not being able to remember any song a few weeks after listening to this album for a few days non stop is very bad news.
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musclassia StaffPosts: 7782 |
02.12.2024 - 12:01Rating: 8
Written by X-FrEaK on 02.12.2024 at 11:33
While the review touches on a lot of good points, and I agree with basically everything that is said, I dont see how agreeing with the lack of memorable moments can result in a 7.8. For me thats what music is about, be it metal, or any other genre, not being able to remember any song a few weeks after listening to this album for a few days non stop is very bad news.
A fair view for sure; I think there's certain types of music where memorability has a bigger or lesser impact on its overall appeal. Styles intrinsically oriented around catchiness and immediacy (e.g. bubblegum pop, melodic metalcore), if songs aren't memorable it's a fairly serious negative indictment of the music's quality. For more complex music or atmospherically-inclined music, the enjoyment of listening to the music can owe to more than just the memorability of hooks; the overall vibe of the music can be an attraction in its own right, and there may be complex parts that aren't naturally memorable in the aftermath of listening to the music, but are enjoyable when listening to them. For this album, a substantial portion of its charm and strengths for me is the overarching feel and atmosphere of it, and there's parts (particularly the ones I highlighted in the review) that aren't necessarily earworms that get stuck in your head, but make for satisfying listening. But it's also very reasonable if someone places greater importance on hookiness/memorability relative to the other factors.
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grote_smurf
Posts: 16 |
Eric M. 2.0 30.11.2024 - 00:09
I remember Horse Sense or Horsens is a town somewhere in Jutland, Denmark🤪
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One day the Dutch broadcast companies will present a GREAT heavy metal show on radio and tv. We call this wishful thinking.....
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Fallen Ghost Craft Beer Geek
Posts: 730 |
This album slaps! Listened two times, and got better the second time around. I'm sure it will open up little by little after each listen! Definitely not something to put on in the background, this needs 100% attention!
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