As has been pointed out in other, more specific threads, such as those concerning either Christianity, Islam or Judaism; I have decided to get things going with this one, a general one. A thread where the concepts of religion and spirituality can be discussed openly, in all their grandeur. In other words, there are no specifics here. No partiqular topic that must be adhered to, other than the wide, guiding tense of Religion and Spirituality

So, what are examples of things that could and should be discussed? Well, it's up to you!

What is the nature of life? What is the nature of God? Is there a heaven, or a hell? An existance of an after life? What is the soul? Why are we here?

You get the idea. Relate these questions and others like them -similar to them- to yourself and what you feel about life, death; and existance.

EDIT: I suppose I should make it clearer, that this thread is designed for discussion and debate, by those members of Metalstorm who are not affiliated with any religion or spiritual path in partiqular.

Debate, is ofcourse welcome, but argument, is not


Cheers.

WOw great thread , well my dear religion is something that I havre try to study and understand over the period of my life , I indeed believe in God or something superior because I think all this things couldn't be made alone or like some people believe they created themselves , I respect that opinion but I think that we are too ignorant , too imperfect to do such thing, and well science don't have all the answers so there must be a God ...

So as religion concerns ,I'm facinated with all the theories and beliefs people have , and is so amazing but well after all I have come with a conclution , I think even that religion is beautiful is man made , I mean I don't know if God ever said let us all be christians or hindus ....No! I think that religion is a translation but at the end is the same thing , as long as you believe and acknowledge there's something beyond this life is fine .... I want to achieve a high spiritual level , not only because maybe is a way of being closer to God but because is a way to erase all the negative things we possed ...

As for death , I don't fear death , because I know when I die that all the bad things this flesh that I have as costume will be gone , and I will really see myself , I will really see the spirit behind this body ..about Heaven and Hell ?wellmaybe there is a heaven and well about hell perphaps but there's also a thing called Karma ... uhmm about hell I'm not sure and is funny , when I was young I used to think that hell was your consious telling youhow bad you were ..but I was too small to understand other things that I have found in my way ...
Maybe we are here to learn something and take all the ignorance away , and take all the bad things in our spirit because maybe when we do we can go safe and tranquil that you end your purpose and maybe all things happen for a reason ...

Written by akatana on 19.05.2006 at 19:41

I think it is important to point out the difference between religion and spirituality... On one hand spirituality is often refered to as the holistic health, that means trying to achieve a ballance between the mind body and spirit, to improve one's wisdom and will. Unlike religion .. spirituality means that there are many different individual paths to achieve this holistic health and that there is no objective truth. One of my favourite works on spirituality is Plato's cave analogy ...

Some examples of spiritual movements rather than religious movements are buddhism, zen , shamanism or the Mevlevi Order ...

This ofcourse is true; is the case and cause of why it features here, alongside Religion, in order to create the broadest means of discussion possible.

Written by Icewings on 19.05.2006 at 18:54

as long as you believe and acknowledge there's something beyond this life

Good point, and an enjoyable post!

I will continue on a similar train of thought, if you and other users will forgive me, concerning the nature of God; my personal opinion of such:

What is God -to me?

God to me is the infinite and eternal Reality behind all phenomena; it (or "He" as it is commonly described, wherein sense would lead us to conclude a genderless capacity) is in a sense beyond all qualities, despite being infinite; one may affirm that God is the highest, most perfect transcendental existence in whom everything originated and by whom everything is sustained. God is potential being, for in Him all potentialities are present. God is being in activity, in motion; He is being in actuality. It is by such emanation that the multitude of spiritual and material worlds emerge, their frequences and vibrations as the universe, from the original potentiality of the Divine; of God. If God is the ultimate and true reality then there can be no other. All worship of God(s) is essentially of and directed towards the same thing; the one: The divine that is all. We are all ceaselessly connected, to God, to each other. As beings we are a duality; matter and mind; body and soul. The body can be seen as the biological, the earthly; whilst the soul can be seen as the incorpreal self; the higher conciousness. Freeing ourselves from the material; a detachment of ego, we can become one with ourselves, as we are detached and out of touch, not only with our true selves, but with God. It was in his image that our true selves were fashioned.

Thankyou - - my apologies if at first all of the above is alot to take in. My wording is sometimes more sporadic than it perhaps needs to be.

Cheers, & good health.

Written by Guest on 19.05.2006 at 20:37

Written by Icewings on 19.05.2006 at 18:54

as long as you believe and acknowledge there's something beyond this life

Good point, and an enjoyable post!

I will continue on a similar train of thought, if you and other users will forgive me, concerning the nature of God; my personal opinion of such:

What is God -to me?

God to me is the infinite and eternal Reality behind all phenomena; it (or "He" as it is commonly described, wherein sense would lead us to conclude a genderless capacity) is in a sense beyond all qualities, despite being infinite; one may affirm that God is the highest, most perfect transcendental existence in whom everything originated and by whom everything is sustained. God is potential being, for in Him all potentialities are present. God is being in activity, in motion; He is being in actuality. It is by such emanation that the multitude of spiritual and material worlds emerge, their frequences and vibrations as the universe, from the original potentiality of the Divine; of God. If God is the ultimate and true reality then there can be no other. All worship of God(s) is essentially of and directed towards the same thing; the one: The divine that is all. We are all ceaselessly connected, to God, to each other. As beings we are a duality; matter and mind; body and soul. The body can be seen as the biological, the earthly; whilst the soul can be seen as the incorpreal self; the higher conciousness. Freeing ourselves from the material; a detachment of ego, we can become one with ourselves, as we are detached and out of touch, not only with our true selves, but with God. It was in his image that our true selves were fashioned.

Thankyou - - my apologies if at first all of the above is alot to take in. My wording is sometimes more sporadic than it perhaps needs to be.

Cheers, & good health.

Yeah I like your point of view and in kind of like mine , I think that God is in everything , it just that sometimes we don't noticed it ...Great thread

Congratulations, Daibh, for this amazing thread!

Well, let me see what I can say about God... I'm agnostic, so I don't have a clear definition of what is it (or Him, or Her, or whatever else). I don't have a clear definition even if I believe or not in God. Let me put this in a clearer way...

The universe hides so much mysteries that mankind will never even get close to solve 10% of them. In fact, men don't completely understand even their bodies' functioning. We are too far to have a complete understanding of things in universe, their logics, their functionings, their imperfections. Infinity is hard (better, is impossible) to understand. That's why all our knowledge about metaphysics and spirits and extrasensorial stuff in general is based on speculations and hypotheses.

An agnostic says that questions about those topics are simply impossible to answer, once there's not any solid argument that sustains them. That's why I can't say if God exists or not. The same reason I have no answers to the origin of the universe or if does exist life after death.

But there's a thing I'd like to ask you: do you believe in an absolute good or bad? I mean, those things we consider "good" and "right", or "bad" and "wrong", are just a common sense between men, or they were dictated by someone, or something superior? Please tell me what do you think.

Cheers.

I agree with Taka on the distinction between religion and spirituality...
Spirituality I think, is deepley related to human nature. Since forever, people invested nature with a 'soul', a 'personality' of its own. More exactly, every god and every 'higher power' draws its origin in natural events. When we think of describing a god(dess), we always relate him(her) to a certain thing we see in nature...This is why pagan religions seem always so more natural and closer to man. Because these gods are those we notice around us. It is THAT particular goddess that make fields fertiles, it is THAT particular god that brings tempests and rain...etc.

From this point of view, religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, are rather more abstract...Of course, there are a lot of people who see God (And I'm talking mostly about the christian definition of God) as the higher power which governs everything, which created everything and it is everywhere, in every little detail of his creation. But that is certainly not the official point of view. It's not this that the church tries to focus on. God is love, light, mercy, understanding...an image or representation of a whole range of abstract human feelings. And it always seem to focus on the weak. This is what the church has done. Neutralised the pride and force of individuals, making them think that those are sins, or at least condamnable attitudes, which are not appropriate to be shown when 'facing' God. As a corrolar, the Judeo-Christian religion made itself available to everyone. It is not such a bad thing, but this way, to my eyes, it excluded from the start a certain number of individuals, which through the force of their character and their actions are not compatible anymore with the god of love and mercy.

I know I am pretty much divagating, but I always think about the old times, when people acted how they acted not because of rules imposed by the gods and religion, not because of a fear of the punition, but as a result of a common sense. In this light, 'religion' was far more close to the individual, and the inter-human relationshipis were constructed keeping in mind a very sensitive knowledge of human nature. So, to a certain point, monotheistic religions are much too limitative. They are always trying to separate the 'good' from the 'evil', the 'worthy' from the 'unworthy'...Worthy, being of course, someone who follows the laws, and who will be granted with eternal life in Heavens, near God.

Nowadays, most people when thinking about spirituality, mention new-age beliefs, Wicca and such...though spirituality was always a part of human nature. It is not something opposing to religion, opposing to God, but it in fact made the existence of God possible. Spirituality is what gives birth to religions. And religions are nothing more than a 'regulation' of that spirituality. They shape it, they use it, they are construncting rules upon it, and finally, they make it official. It is this and that spirituality has to be. Now we made rules, we defined it...and everything that traspasses these, has nothing more to do with the religion we created.

Sprituality has no limits, there are no different type of spirituality...it is the capacity of man to adhere to a certain 'force' which is more or less explicable to him. Religion is something created, forced, official, defined, arranged and more than anything limited.

I typically have great difficulty discussing my own personal spiritual beliefs. I will listen quite easily and take in information, deciding whether I like it or not, constantly adjusting my standpoint on various details and ideas, if given a compelling enough argument. But at the end of the day I don't like debating what I think.

I think that religion and spirtuality are different but nothing stops anyone from being both religious and spiritual.

I am not religious, per se, only spiritual. I follow no specific path, and I dislike being thrown in with the new age crowd. I have an eclectic core set of beliefs right now. Basic among them is the idea that God is everything, that God is inescabable because He (or She, however you like it, because God is both) is within you. We are expressions of the divine.

I believe strongly in reincarnation. I speculate, as some folk do, that Earth is like the boot camp of the universe. Things are difficult here, therefore, spiritual evolution occurs more readily and quickly, because the lessons here are more difficult than elsewhere in the universe. I am personally under the impression that I, my soul, came from another world at the beginning, most likely near the star Arcturus. I now am finishing out my cyclical evolution here. I have been told that I have lived almost 1000 lives here on Earth. I am aware that the finish line is not in sight yet, but sometimes old souls like me are the ones who learn slower.

I believe that Lemuria and Atlantis existed. I think that people were closer to God then, but when times aren't difficult there is nothing to learn...

While I'm on that subject, I will say that God does not punish, and while God, angels, and guides are always with us and ready to help us, it is us who decide our destiny and fate. We write our own lives and their details before we enter this life, and we go about completing them by our own will. Therefore, while we may endure great suffering, it is by our own volition. No one can ever justify blaming God for their sorrows.

My beliefs turn rather Buddhist at some points; I subscribe to the idea that simply existing on this plane is uncomfortable for us and it is more difficult to be born than it is to die. Upon death, we enter a fantastic afterlife. That afterlife is right here with us, but we can't see it. It's on another plane. That's why when you hear stories about near-death experiences, people will talk about traveling horizontally rather than vertically.

I feel like I've talked enough at this point, although I've hardly touched the end of the iceberg. Maybe later I'll come back to discuss further.

I've been exposed to a lot of religions. My family back in slovakia is extremely strongly Roman Catholic and my grandfather is a churchkeeper. When i still lived there, I was a chuch boy and I helped out with simple tasks around the church. My mother eventually converted to Jehovah's Witnesses (as did my sister) But I was never really influenced by that despite going to the church with them - What I remeber is them talking about how some people don't belong in the church and quite honestly I thought they were pretty mean people, at the age of seven. (they are VERY strict and VERY conservative)

My father stayed a Roman Catholic to this day but no longer goes to church. I remeber him saying a few years ago: " I know a lot of atheists who are much better people than these damn righteous christians" but nevertheless, he proclaims himself a Catholic and he calls ALL other christian denominations false, and a load of crap. My mom later changed to some kind of angel-spiritualist belief which I really don't like (I have absolutely no faith in mystics or psychics etc that she seems to read about).

Myself? Well,until about age 14 I was a Christian ,Catholic. I used to pray daily and I used to attend religious events but at the age of 14 I just stopped because I was really only ever thinking about myself and the whole christian thing was to me, selfish. (the way I followed it,that is) I find far more peace and happiness in having no religion at all... I'm not very "spiritual" either and personally I like it that way. I'll respect anyone's beliefs because I think that to a lot of people ,religion is a source of comfort and a reason to live. Even if it's all a lie (which is what I think it is), if it helps people in some way it serves it's purpose. What I do hate, however, are people who become almost fanatical with their religions to the extent of harming others and becoming malicious (i.e beatings and such) and to such people I do become extremely anti-religious and offensive... but oh well.

So you firmly believe that there is nothing more than this; nothing, you say, asides from the people and the material earth on which they roam?

Science is right ? And what does this mean exactly ? Is there a theory that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is nothing after you die ?
Science is just a comfortable escape for those who need an explenation for everything, here including death, in order to make their lives logical and rational. Once having everything explained and well-ranged, you can go on without asking questions being sure that life will go on following your rules. At this point, science is as naive as it is the belief that there is something after death.

After all, everything is only theory, and perhaps only a lie...

Written by Guest on 22.05.2006 at 16:46

So you firmly believe that there is nothing more than this; nothing, you say, asides from the people and the material earth on which they roam?

no, I wasn't clear on that. I'm agnostic, so I'm not sure what's true and what's not. To be honest it doesn't concern me so much... I do think there's something behind it all, but I don't think it's important to know it, but rather to live a "good" life.

Written by Avenant on 22.05.2006 at 19:28

Written by Guest on 22.05.2006 at 16:46

So you firmly believe that there is nothing more than this; nothing, you say, asides from the people and the material earth on which they roam?

no, I wasn't clear on that. I'm agnostic, so I'm not sure what's true and what's not. To be honest it doesn't concern me so much... I do think there's something behind it all, but I don't think it's important to know it, but rather to live a "good" life.

Ok! Just thought I'd ask. There's nothing more senseless than an aethesit; agnosticism at least, admits possibilty. We are dead when we rule that out.

....Let us not fall into the infamous trap of science vs religion.

Science, itself, can be seen as religious -and vice versa. All the greatest scientific minds in history have believed in an element of the divine. One stage does not exist without the other.

To say one is a "comfort" to a certain type of people is rather innane.

This thread was set up for the discussion of personal religion and spirituality; a means of expressing how we feel about our world and the universe which surround it. It is not, by any means, a space in which we can bicker about each others thoughts and feelings.

Lets keep it open please, or the thread itself will become the opposite of that: Locked.

Everyone posts what he feels like. I don't see why is it wrong to talk about religion and science. It's not like that would stop other people to state their opinions. After all, this should be a discussion, not an inventory of different opinions strictly limited to religion and spirituality.

It was very open - it's now that you start to limit it.

Written by Guest on 22.05.2006 at 21:48

Everyone posts what he feels like. I don't see why is it wrong to talk about religion and science. It's not like that would stop other people to state their opinions. After all, this should be a discussion, not an inventory of different opinions strictly limited to religion and spirituality.

It was very open - it's now that you start to limit it.

You have clearly missed the point. I did not at anytime say there was anything wrong with discussing science and religion together....I merealy stated an argument over the point was not the purpose of this thread.

Just some points I saw in some posts...

@Proud Autumn: so you think Earth is the most complicated and most evoluted world to live? Well, I think this is kinda pretentious... there are infinite stars in the universe, and maybe even more universes, and mankind just can't imagine its hugeness. So your statement, IMO, does not have a solid base. Please don't understand this as an offense, I'm just saying what I think.

@Daibh: I was quite surprised to see such an intelligent and open-minded guy as you saying atheism is something 'senseless'. Ok, it's your opinion, and I respect it. But I just think atheism is a kind of belief, just as Catholicism, Judaism or any other religion. Atheists just think there's no spiritual side in world. No life after death, no God, no saints nor devils. Atheists really are the most skeptic people, but, shit, it's still a way to see the things!

@Sinsanity: Why shouldn't science be right? The problem of mankind is to have to see meanings or reasons to anything in life. And if there's no meaning to life? And if there's only a silent and perpetual sleep? People fears the end, so they try to think in some other plane of existance.
Of course religions can be right. Maybe there really is a life beyond death. But this we will never know. Only at our final moments...

That's it for now. Peace to all of you.

Written by Guest on 23.05.2006 at 06:22

Just some points I saw in some posts...

@Daibh: I was quite surprised to see such an intelligent and open-minded guy as you saying atheism is something 'senseless'. Ok, it's your opinion, and I respect it. But I just think atheism is a kind of belief, just as Catholicism, Judaism or any other religion. Atheists just think there's no spiritual side in world. No life after death, no God, no saints nor devils. Atheists really are the most skeptic people, but, shit, it's still a way to see the things!

Well, thankyou equally for the compliment and the criticism -'tis always welcome. Perhaps I should explain myself a little further:

Aetheism, I said was senseless. Perhaps what I should have said was, "I see no sense in it". I respect it just as much as I do the likes of agnosicism, and indeed, the faith based religions of our world; I just don't, as an individual, find much use for it in the grand scheme of things. As a practicing gnostic, who takes stock in many ideas and paths this is my obvious reaction. My wording, I'll admit again, could have been a little bit better.

Secondly, on Proud Autumns part -don't go calling my lady protencious unless you fully understand her and her post, and indeed yourself and your ego. Noone is fit to slide their opinions in here (in the form of critiscm for anothers opinion) and leave unscaved.

As myself and Proud Autumn share many views, I shall try my best to explain my own take on it.

As returning souls, as has been explained, we are here and there (and everywhere) in order to facilitate our own spiritual (and ultimate) evolution. When Proud Autumn stated that earth has been said to be the most difficult arena to this end; to work out the mysteries of being, she put specific emphasis on the quote, via it's use, that it is said to be eg. By someone else; some other group. Where it is obvious that this realm, if you will, is a rather difficult one to traverse, it would indeed be folly to declare that it was more or less than any other in the vastness and infinte natures of the universe. Indeed, the infinte nature, by default, leads us to assume that there is no ultimate ease and not absolute difficulty. There can be no spectrum if there is no end to the scale.

Thankyou. Peace be with you also.

Cheers.

Written by Guest on 23.05.2006 at 06:22

Why shouldn't science be right? The problem of mankind is to have to see meanings or reasons to anything in life. And if there's no meaning to life? And if there's only a silent and perpetual sleep? People fears the end, so they try to think in some other plane of existance.
Of course religions can be right. Maybe there really is a life beyond death. But this we will never know. Only at our final moments...

Your post seems pretty contradictory to me...If there's only a silent and perpetual sleep ? If everything's a lie ? How does this proves science is right ?
But anyway, I see someone wants to keep his thread clean So there is another thread about science. No science here.

@Daibh I think I pretty much get your point, after all it was very clear. It doesn't bother me. It was more the way you put it. A little too pretentious.

@Daibh: Thanks a lot for the clarifications. As I said before, you really are an intelligent and open-minded person. I just didn't get your point. Now things are much clearer, thanks.

And sorry about what I said about your lady (who I think is as intelligent as you). I think it was my turn to not to choose well the words. I just didn't understand what she said at first. But, as I said before, it was not my intention to hurt anyone. I think I got things a little better now (although I still don't completely agree with it, but nevermind...). As you said once, language is a barrier, indeed, and sometimes I misunderstand what others say. Thanks again for explaining her point of view.

@Sinsanity: I didn't say science is right. If I, I wouldn't be in my agnostic point of view. But well, as you said, this is not the right place to discuss about it, so let's put an end to this discussion.

I hope I was clearer this time.

Peace to all.

I would definitely say that I'm agnostic. I'm unsure as to whether or not a God exists. What I believe is actually pretty simple. There are so many different views on why we are here, or how we got here, etc. etc. and there have even been wars where people fought and died for these different ideals. So I always used to ask myself "Which way is the correct way?" Well now, I don't think that any faith is right or wrong.

I don't have a belief as to why we are here, or how we got here because I'm completely unsure. The point is: We are here. So I believe that since we are here we should spend our lives making the most of the time we have. We all should focus on being happy, and making our loved ones happy. That's what life means to me.

@Bloody Rain: I couldn't agree more, dude. That's exactly my point of view. Sometimes we lose ourselves in wanderings about what is beyond that we forget the most elementar thing: to be happy and to make our beloved happy. That's my point of view, too.

I admire the commitment it must take to be a devout member of ANY religion, however I doubt that many people have this commitment nowadays. I don't understand why people discourage religious and spiritual ideals, they are not just an answer to things we cannot understand, it is a personal choice which people take very seriously. I think this should be respected.

Written by Guest on 25.05.2006 at 15:19

I admire the commitment it must take to be a devout member of ANY religion, however I doubt that many people have this commitment nowadays.

You would be suprised.

Ofcourse, there are many Christians, for example, who attend Church services and other funtions, yet, do not live as perfect Christians, e.g. "by the Bible". On the other hand, it is very difficult, as a spiritual person, for anyone who is truly searching, to practice any school of thought or understanding without being truly committed.

Written by Guest on 25.05.2006 at 15:19

I don't understand why people discourage religious and spiritual ideals, they are not just an answer to things we cannot understand, it is a personal choice which people take very seriously. I think this should be respected.

Indeed. Rarely has more truth been spoken!

Slante Mhor.

Like a great man once said "Religion is Man-made, Spirituality is God-given"-Dave Mustaine

So Daibh (can't I just say Jack? ha) you are a Panentheist then? I hold Penentheism to be close to my own beliefs also, which I will talk about later as I don't have much time. I never like to apply a title to my type of beliefs as they are wholy my own, but I found Panentheism to be a vague interpretation. By the way, I always liked what Mr. Rutan had on his band shirt, "My Vision is My Religion."

Written by Clintagräm on 26.05.2006 at 06:57

So Daibh (can't I just say Jack? ha) you are a Panentheist then? I hold Penentheism to be close to my own beliefs also, which I will talk about later as I don't have much time. I never like to apply a title to my type of beliefs as they are wholy my own, but I found Panentheism to be a vague interpretation. By the way, I always liked what Mr. Rutan had on his band shirt, "My Vision is My Religion."

Hello there C-Dub, nice to banter with you again.

As for the Panentheist comment, I suppose, that would very well be an accurate way of describing my own beliefs. Regarding the dictionary definition, we get a better idea of what that entails: "Panentheism includes the belief that God is in everything. The belief that the entire universe - substances, forces and laws -- is God - the universe is God's body. In addition, God is seen as transcending the universe. (Greek words: pan=all, en=in and Theos=God; "God-in-all")

That is indeed, what I subscribe to.

As for calling myself something -giving my spirituality a title -I am a Gnostic. For a definition of that, I will once again seek wording from the dictionary: But alas, the dictionary does not do the term justice.

"Gnosis" can be defined as: "While the literal translation for this word is "knowledge", it's meaning is closer to "insight" or, to use a more modern concept, "enlightenment". Rather than purely an intellectual understanding then, it is a "knowledge of the heart" (which is not meant to imply mere emotionalism) or wisdom. It is the complete comprehension that comes from both rational and intuited means" -And as a Gnostic, this is what I value, spiritually, more than faith.

If you have any questions regarding this, I will freely answer them.

Again, nice talking to you once more, after so long.

Cheers.

@Daibh: You said that atheism has no sense to you, apparently on the basis that it leaves out possibility of existence of god/gods (which actually isn't always true, see "weak atheism"). Well I'm an agnostic, but let me tell you this:
Imagine that there is no god. What is a human in a world without god? Extremely complicated creation of nature alone. Being, which despise being built solely of such prosaic elements, can feel such high feelings as love, hate or compassion. It has high intelligence, ability to learn, build and destroy. And I repeat, everything solely thanks to the prosaic elements available to the nature.
So now imagine the genius of nature that was able to do that, the briliance of creating everything out of almost nothing, without any supernatural powers. There's so much beauty in all those complicated structures. Organs working with organs, cells with cells. And everything working towards creation of complex mind, mind able to create music, paintings and countless abstract forms.

So now let's add a god. What happens? He gives human a soul. All the love, hate, compassion and art no longer are nature's creation. It is now the work of god. So what happens? Our world becomes prosaic, nature can at best create a fleshy shell. Beauty disappears from our world and we find it in gods instead.

But wouldn't it be better to seek for this beauty in the world we live in now? To see or perceive it with our own eyes, here and now. Not in the gods who may even not exist. To walk through simple streets, realising how impressive and beautiful our world is...

Does that really make no sense at all?

About the first main post,

There is a thin line between belief in the Judean-Christian God and just being agnostic just for the sake of not putting myself into the category of fundamentalist Christian which I really hate, I hate all religions and especially those that grab nations by the balls as in Phillipines with Catholicism, Israel with Judaism, and the whole muslim world with Islam.

But I consider my convictions as in touch with the spiritual realm and am conitinually searching to find more answers to that realm, however most of my convictions are of the Judeo-Christian Ideology, I think that there is an ultimate truth to that ideology and I also observer other ideologies like the temple of set, thelema and etc.

Written by Guest on 26.05.2006 at 09:12

the genius of nature...... the briliance of creating everything out of almost nothing, without any supernatural powers. There's so much beauty in all those complicated structures. Organs working with organs, cells with cells. And everything working towards creation of complex mind, mind able to create music, paintings and countless abstract forms.

But wouldn't it be better to seek for this beauty in the world we live in now? To see or perceive it with our own eyes, here and now. Not in the gods who may even not exist. To walk through simple streets, realising how impressive and beautiful our world is...

I see where you are coming from. But again, it depends on how you look at it.

I mean, in reference to nature, the ability to create something out of nothing, without supernatural powers...

...I think it best to look at a straight up definition for the term supernatural:

"Not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material"

Now there are two ways to look at the claim in light of this. I will highlight them firstly be rewritting the sentence as per definintion:

Natures ability to create something out of nothing, something that does not exist in nature (?); something that is not subject to natural law (?)

(?)Something just does not follow through.

To make sense of the concept, in my eyes, we must rewrite the sentence again, from the original once more:

the ability to create something out of nothing, without divine powers

Now, for a definition of divine:

"Emanating from God; being or having the nature of a god; perceiving intuitively or through some inexplicable perceptive powers"

So to take it all back to an extremely personal note; I cannot view nature as something that did not emanate from the nature of what I believe is God; the beauty within all those complex structures, within humans; the complex and evolving mind.

The beauty of nature I do not view as seperate from God, in short.

Here, I shall post a quoted section, lifted from another forum to which I am a member, as I reckon it is an accurate, and lovely way to make sense of what I am trying to say:

"If God is seen as an ocean and all living things as waves, rising and falling, living and dying, rougher and stiller at different times then every wave is made from water - God stuff. Similarly, on an atomic/chemical level every thing that exists is made of the same stuff. The H,He,C,O,N that makes up the stars, the sun, as well the soil, its nutrients, the plants, the air, our blood, bodies, brain, ears and eyes. God is a key being pressed. All inter relates, is inter dependant without separation and non existent on its own. The air could be seen as loving understanding what is required to keep us alive, as the sun, trees - All God(s)"
-Atributted to Fin

As for the line of questioning associated with the idea that we should seek the beauty of the world we are in now....that, really, is what I am doing with my spirituality. At least on a personal level, this is, again, how I see my God; the beauty of the world. I can feel connected to the divine (the, otherworldy if that is how you wish to look at it) whenst both walking in the woods and (or) meditating on a complex metaphysical extreme.

This is a beautiful and impressive world, Draklar. Thankyou for your post and the opportunity to learn a little in replying to it. Hope this all makes sense

Cheers.