Rock music - The devils music?
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Posts: 148
Visited by: 130 users
Original post
Posted by necrovamp, 05.04.2007 - 23:45
it angered me. I thought it a load of bollocks. I know a Mormon, thats one of the strictest christian religions i know of, who listens to black sabbath etc, and anyone who likes metal should know that the 'devil horns' isn't the sign of the devil, its a sign witch can give evil or take evil away, you dont see satanists standing round a fire doing that do you! Im also fed up of chritians standing outside of gigs going on and on about how going to see 'such and such a band' will send you till hell, I don't see a satanist doing that to christians. anyway enough ranting what are your thoughts
I am sorry if i have offended anyone, if you are a christian i fully respect that, i just dont like people going on about how im going to hell because i listen to Korpiklaani or Dragonforce or Ensiferum. there are many paths to go by but in the end they all meet in the same place.
AiwiAstwihad AiryanaKhvarenah |
18.07.2008 - 20:50
i've heard, seen, read such things enough to learn not to give a F***!!!! in iran metalhead=satan worshiper. there was an article in a government news web site which considered metallica a music genre!!! it's in Persian so there's no use in putting the link here. and ppl who wear band's shirts or such are being arrested!!! what more i can say? Written by Dane Train on 08.05.2007 at 22:08 totally agree... i finally agree with you on something!!! it's not only the case of metalheads nor the christians, it happens to all those who choose to have a moderated & liberal view while keeping their beliefs... but i have to add, i really despise christian/white metal. Written by Bas on 18.07.2008 at 16:03 yes, relligions give ppl a better feeling and that's one of the reasons why all those relligions exist, but certainly it dose NOT mean either of these: 1. ppl need relligions to be happy. 2. without relligions, ppl won't be happy. 3. if something makes ppl happy or gives them a good feeling, it's good and correct from every aspect. for example: it can act as an Opium _ as Marx states, or narcotic _ as Nietzsche states. 4. hapiness and a good feeling are enough to have a productive life. the more important thing we need, is an open, questioning mind, IMO. Douglas Adams: "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" Dr. James Watson_ co-discoverer of the structure of DNA, Nobel prize winner: "i don't think we're here for anything, we're just product of evolution. you can say:'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but i'm anticipating a good lunch." in our current world some (maybe most ) ppl still need relligions, but have you heard about Nietzsche's Übermensch?
---- You who will come to the surface
From the flood that's overwhelmed us and drowned us all Must think, when you speak of our weakness in times of darkness That you've not had to face
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
18.07.2008 - 22:22 Written by totaliteraliter on 18.07.2008 at 17:34 A Metalhead is one who not only enjoys listening to any form of Heavy Metal music, but who also dwells into the culture surrounding the music itself. This would include, but not exclusively or fully inclusively; wearing "Metal" styles of clothing, going to concerts/festivals, collecting Metal albums, reading literature on Metal, etc. I honestly see no contradiction in being a Christian and a Metalhead. I can see a where maybe there might be some people who see something wrong with a Christian listening to Burzum, but for me, I don't.
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
18.07.2008 - 22:31 Written by necrovamp on 05.04.2007 at 23:45 Written by necrovamp on 05.04.2007 at 23:45 I have. We have had several "Satanist" try and disrupt our worship services. We have also received numerous death threats from Black Metal bands and fans.
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AiwiAstwihad AiryanaKhvarenah |
18.07.2008 - 22:36
you recieved numerous death threats from black metal bands?
---- You who will come to the surface
From the flood that's overwhelmed us and drowned us all Must think, when you speak of our weakness in times of darkness That you've not had to face
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Conservationist Posts: 257 |
18.07.2008 - 22:44 Written by Dane Train on 18.07.2008 at 22:22 I don't either. I see a contradiction in Christian metal bands, however.
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Valentin B Iconoclast |
18.07.2008 - 23:05 Written by Conservationist on 18.07.2008 at 22:44 with the softer genres like Goth, Folk, Doom, Power Metal etc. or even Thrash i don't see anything wrong. music should be what you play, not to be taken into the context of other bands(i.e. who cares if x band has satanic ideals.. how does it make y band more satanic/less christian/more islamic etc.?) what makes me scratch my head though is the 'christian' death or black metal bands... how can you mix 2 things entirely opposed to each other? a question directed to Dane, can you/have you heard christian growl-bands?(ok aside the metalcore ones, they don't really count lol) isn't such a violent style of singing opposed to the general (at least apparent) ideas of pacifism etc in christianity?
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totaliteraliter |
18.07.2008 - 23:17 Written by Dane Train on 18.07.2008 at 22:22 This is because you metal is something more superficial for you, note the distinction I made: your definition of metalhead does not include any requirement such as "understanding of and identification and solidarity with the art." Christians can enjoy metal just fine, but there inevitably comes a point where the two ideologies come into conflict. Either the individual's Christianity or devotion with metal must be marginalized or compartmentalized or simply taken less seriously.
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
18.07.2008 - 23:55 Written by AiwiAstwihad on 18.07.2008 at 22:36 Yeah, within the first several months of The Flame Within starting up we began getting death threats and other various forms of hate mail. The majority of them came from places in Europe, so I wasn't too concerned, and even the ones from the USA didn't faze me too much. I figure if you aren't man enough to actually come to our church, sit down with our leadership team and discuss your views with us, your terrorizations are just empty threats. Written by Valentin B on 18.07.2008 at 23:05 That is a good question. With Death Metal, I think it still works. A large part of Christian faith is dealing with death. It is as much a part of our faith as life is. For someone like me who works with people who struggle with drugs, abuse, depression and suicide, death is a very real thing. There are several Christian bands that seem to really have a strong focus on such aspects like the end of our lives. But as opposed to "traditional" Death Metal lyrics, which seem to glorify or celebrate death many times, the Christian perspective is one of us conquering death. Black Metal gets a little trickier, as people have a hard time defining Black Metal even without Christians involved. Is it a sound, or a philosophy? If it is a sound, then Christians could surly play it. In fact I am going to see a Christian Prog-Black Metal band next week (actually one of the members is a Metal Storm Member). If Black Metal bands can incorporate organs, which were used in Christian churches, why can't Christians use the Black Metal sounds for their music? Now, if Black Metal is being defined as a philosophy, then no Christians wouldn't play it. The aspect of Christian Black, or Holy-Unblack, is still controversial, and I don't think everyone will ever be happy with any decisions on the topic. Written by Valentin B on 18.07.2008 at 23:05 Ah, great question. I actually gave a talk on this not to long ago to a group of Christians who understood very little about Metal and wanted to know more about the music and culture. As for bands that use the more extreme growling/screaming, I know of many. Here is just a quick list of some (just pulling these from my iTunes, and there are many more out there): Antestor, Becoming the Archetype, Crimson Moonlight, Crimson Thorn, Extol, Fearscape, Holy Blood, Horde, Impending Doom, Kekal, Living Sacrifice, Mortal Treason, Mortification, Pantokrator, Paramaecium, Point of Recognition, Sacrificium, and Soul Embraced. Now the question on "violent" style of singing is an interesting one. For many bands, it is not a notion of violence but of passion. From a personal standpoint, when I am worshiping I can't just simply say something; I have to scream it. There are just certain phrases within music that one cannot simply sing but must shout/growl/scream/sheik. While there is a huge aspect of Christianity that calls for pacifism, there are aspects like spiritual warfare that are anything but passive. But that is a discussion for another time and place. Written by totaliteraliter on 18.07.2008 at 23:17 Metal is anything but superficial to me. I don't even know why you would claim something like this. It really just shows that you don't know me at all. I have been listening to Metal my whole life. I was a Metalhead long before I became a follower of Christ. There is not one all-inclusive ideology throughout Metal. There is absolutely no conflict whatsoever in my passion for Metal music and my love for Jesus. If anything, the two have strengthened each other for me, not pushed them apart.
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AiwiAstwihad AiryanaKhvarenah |
19.07.2008 - 00:13 Written by Dane Train on 18.07.2008 at 23:55 so it was NOT from black metal BANDS...and you are not even SURE if they were black metal fans. Quote: to whom that "you" refers, exactly?
---- You who will come to the surface
From the flood that's overwhelmed us and drowned us all Must think, when you speak of our weakness in times of darkness That you've not had to face
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X-Ray Rod Skandino Staff |
19.07.2008 - 00:20
I think that Dane meaned the gay people who just send death notes and can't talk about it face-to-face Written by Dane Train on 18.07.2008 at 22:22 And If you listen to Burzum... You just have become my favorite christian [No jokes involved btw... jejeje ] As you just said, I can't see any problem either by being a christian and enjoy metal. I know that, I mean... I'm not a christian and don't follow any religion but I do believe in God and listen to Black metal without any problem.
---- Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29 Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
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totaliteraliter |
19.07.2008 - 00:24 Written by Dane Train on 18.07.2008 at 23:55 I'm happy for you, but would prefer if you stuck to the core of the discussion instead of getting hung up on semantics. Written by Dane Train on 18.07.2008 at 23:55 This is the compartmentalization I've referred to; a personal construct of metal is created where the individual removes all potentially offensive or conflicting aspects of it.
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
19.07.2008 - 00:27 Written by AiwiAstwihad on 19.07.2008 at 00:13 No, many of them were from actual bands. A couple of them were foolish enough to send us the threats from their MySpace page. Also, a few of the people who sent us threats were caught here in the USA and I actually spoke to them, and several of them were Black Metal fans. Written by AiwiAstwihad on 19.07.2008 at 00:13 I was referring to the folks who sent us the hateful messages. Written by X-Ray Rod on 19.07.2008 at 00:20 I listen to Burzum from time to time. I can't say I am a huge fan by any means, but he does have some interesting music. Part of it is that I'll listen to any form of music out there. I am always interested in learning about new bands and such. The other aspect is to understand where folks like Varg are coming from. If I am to minister to the Metal community, I must understand it, right?
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
19.07.2008 - 00:38 Written by totaliteraliter on 19.07.2008 at 00:24 What in Metal would be offensive to me?
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AiwiAstwihad AiryanaKhvarenah |
19.07.2008 - 00:58 Written by Dane Train on 19.07.2008 at 00:27 then i'm sorry for such a childish behavior...those fans couldn't see the depth or get the message. i don't know which bands you're refering to , but it's not the philosophy of all black metal bands nowadays... for example: Q: Your kids grow up to play in Christian rocks bands, what the hell does a black metal guy do then? Dark Funeral_Emperor Magus Caligula: What my kids would do is their own decision. I will treat them like my parents treated me. They are not very happy with the way I turned out, but they could never stop me either, and they accepted that. My kids can do what the fuck they want with their lives, as long as they respect that I do not follow their choice, I will do the same to them. I guess that I should say that I would torch them and throw them inside a wooden church, but sorry, I'm too old and mature for that. I only say things I mean, and will do. Q: What the hell is black metal? Mayhem_Blasphemer: Black metal is a feeling. It is a feeling about being free, about being freed from the repulsive aspects of society. I am sure that black has a very different feeling from, for example death metal which is more physical, as opposed to black metal which is a more mental thing. Black metal involves music and lyrics but also philosophy and energy. i know not all pll have the same view over Black Metal but that's the view with which i agree...for me, Black Metal=being open-minded , though some fans or even bands may act the opposite! and about myself as a fan, if i wanna send death threats or hate something or burn holy places or ... , it's MORE towards islam not christianity.
---- You who will come to the surface
From the flood that's overwhelmed us and drowned us all Must think, when you speak of our weakness in times of darkness That you've not had to face
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
19.07.2008 - 01:15 Written by AiwiAstwihad on 19.07.2008 at 00:58 Oh I am full aware of that fact that not all Black Metal bands are that way. Thank you for sharing that quote with us. I remember reading or seeing one time where several members of the more famous Black Metal bands denounced the church burnings. It was something along the lines of even though they are against Christianity burning someone else's property is just wrong and only hurts your cause.
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NuclearRedneck Account deleted |
19.07.2008 - 11:51 NuclearRedneck
Account deleted
I don't see a contradiction, simply because music, like other forms of art, should be a reflection of the performer. The differeing styles of music are merely like differing styles of painting, a post-impressionist painting can have any theme as long as it's post-impressionist, but if it were a rennasaince painting claiming to be cubist, there we have issue. Speaking of metal more specifically, the early metal bands that referenced Satan (and I'm thinking specifically about Black Sabbath) used him as a villianous character, something to be feared or avoided. That's a viewpoint that's not far from the Christian interpretation of Satan, to avoid his temptations.
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Conservationist Posts: 257 |
19.07.2008 - 20:02 Written by totaliteraliter on 19.07.2008 at 00:24 Isn't that what people do to all things that become politicized? It's obvious what metal believes, but most are afraid to see it... Then again, it nicely divides the sheep from the wolves.
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Conservationist Posts: 257 |
19.07.2008 - 20:55 Written by Valentin B on 18.07.2008 at 23:05 I agree, although to a large degree, any music past hardcore is going to be wary of christianity if not antichristian. Thrash in particular sees Christianity as conservatism; luckily, some of the better speed metal bands were conservative, so we got away from the leftist ghetto that enclosed hardcore and absorbed it.
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totaliteraliter |
20.07.2008 - 02:37 Written by Dane Train on 19.07.2008 at 00:38 Metal owes it's continued existence and evolution to ideas and movements that, if not opposed to Christianity, have at least recognized Christianity as an integral factor in the failure of modern society and seek to move beyond or away from it.
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
20.07.2008 - 02:44 Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 02:37 So then why are more and more Metal musicans becoming Christians these days?
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totaliteraliter |
20.07.2008 - 02:46 Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 02:44 Overall or per capita? Please source your assertion.
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
20.07.2008 - 03:05
I am talking about people like Peter Steele, Brian Welch, Dave Mustaine, Neal Morse, Alice Cooper, Billy Corgan and many others who had negative attitudes toward Christianity, many times reflected in their music, and have now become followers of Jesus Christ. It really sounds to me like you are trying to make Metal out to be one all-inclusive anti-Christian form of music when it isn't. Yes, the vast majority of Metal's success has been do to its rebellious nature. The anti-social behavior is what brings many (but not all) people to Metal in the first place. This "revolution" against society I actually see having a great deal to do with the actual teachings of the Bible and a Christian walk. As some of the early Church fathers once wrote: "Christians are no different from the rest in their nationality, language or customs?They live in their own countries, but as sojourners. They fulfill all their duties as citizens, but they suffer as foreigners. They find their homeland wherever they are, but their homeland is not in any one place?They are in flesh, but do not live according to the flesh. They live on earth, but are citizens of heaven. They obey all laws, but they live at a higher level than that required by law. They love all, but all persecute them." Christianity at the social core is counter-cultural.
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totaliteraliter |
20.07.2008 - 05:22 Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 03:05 LOL If you are proud to have these clowns on your team, the have at it. We're talking about METAL here though, not artists irrelevant to the genre or who have long since lost relevance or who have done little but contribute to the genre's decline and decay over recent years. Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 03:05 I believe I made it clear that it can also be largely aChristian - anti-Christian sentiment is in many ways a stage that metal has evolved past in certain areas. Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 03:05 Be more specific - counter to what culture? Modern culture is a product of Christianity by large, you may well see your personal interpretation of "true" Christianity as counter to that. But that is not the direction in which metal is moving, or if it is, metal is moving much further. Selective perception may have allowed you to interpret some movement towards the "good old days" of Christianity (a common comment heard from metal neophytes and casual listeners, in my experience) but metal (at its most greatly realized potential) recognizes that the foundation is rotten at its core. Metal moves not to the roots of Christianity but to the ideals of a pre-Christian or post-Christian mindset. That you would be so bold as to hold up an out of touch asshole like Mustaine as any sort of positive representative of metal speaks for itself.
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Valentin B Iconoclast |
20.07.2008 - 10:13 Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 05:22 who did you expect? the all-star of the whole metal scene? Glen Benton or King Diamond or something?
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
20.07.2008 - 16:06 Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 05:22 Was I? I thought I was just listing his name among a group of Metal musicians who have become Christians. My post in no way made any comment about his personality or status. It is not my place to judge him. Maybe it is yours, but not mine. It does sound to me like you are still trying to stretch Metal into something bigger than it is. If I am wrong and Metal is supposed to be anti-Christian, then let it be so?but I will continue to bring a message of peace and love to headbangers where ever I go. And if according to you I can not be a Christian and a Metalhead at the same time, then I choose to follow Jesus and associate myself there.
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totaliteraliter |
20.07.2008 - 18:50 Written by Valentin B on 20.07.2008 at 10:13 I was hoping for at least *one* significant name, for the sake of debate. Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 16:06 You haven't taken the most basic steps in this branch of evaluation. You have your list of converts, and it takes someone else to point out what they all have in common? Do I have to point out the obvious correlation as well? As in, if these are the face of "Christian metal" then we shouldn't have trouble concluding the concept is not an extremely successful one. Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 16:06 I present metal only as it is - it is you who chooses to selectively interpret it. And please cease repeating the "Metal is supposed to be anti-Christian" strawman.
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Dane Train Beers & Kilts Elite |
20.07.2008 - 20:36 Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 18:50 Who would be significant? John Petrucci? Ozzy Osbourne? There is no debate to be held here. All I stated was that there are many Metal musicians who have become Christians within the past several years. That is all. And none of them are making "Christian Metal" with maybe the exception of Brian Welch. I am not the one saying Christian is anti-Metal, because I don't believe it is. There are aspects that are anti-Christian, there are aspects that are pro-Christian, and there are many parts that just don't care. For me, I am going to continue listening to "Christian Metal", persist in my preaching and praise Jesus all the daylong. I have nothing more to say on the topic.
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totaliteraliter |
20.07.2008 - 21:31 Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 20:36 Regardless of your intentions, the point has been made. High profile metal musicians becoming Christians are found to be has-beens, vapid artistically, or altogether irrelevant to the metal musical style. Either come up with a better list of representatives of the compatibility of Christianity and metal or avoid taking future discussions down this path; it's self-defeating. Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 20:36 So what? Consider the aspects proportionately, then consider their respective importance before declaring metal to be neutral on the issue. Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 20:36 And hopefully metal will survive in spite of people like you.
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Conservationist Posts: 257 |
20.07.2008 - 21:57
Rock music is corporate music, not the Devil's.
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Doc G. Full Grown Hoser Staff |
20.07.2008 - 22:14 Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 21:31 Metal is an art form, not a freaking religion or some sort of political faction with beliefs set in stone, its a form of artistic expression just as painting is, so proportions should not really come into question here.
---- "I got a lot of really good ideas, problem is, most of them suck." - George Carlin
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