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The original post

Posted by on 22.10.2006 at 20:47
I'm really tired of all the feminists who blames every single bad thing in the society on the men.

A few years ago the leader of the national organisation for women- and girl-helpcenters (dont know the proper english translation) said, in public, that all men are pigs. How the hell can she say something like that? How the hell can women draw the conclusion that ALL men are bad?
Afterwards, when it had been on the first page in every newspaper, there was a reporter who asked her if she still meant what she said. She answered "But all men ARE pigs. Don't YOU think so?"
When I heard that I was like "whoa!" I mean, she sounded like a freakin maniac. I was honestly scared.

Another feminist debate in Sweden was whether we would boycott the FIFA World Cup just because prostitution is legal in Germany. Some stupid feminist (can't remember name) wrote a blog about that men "should take their responsibility". She said that if you're not against it, you're with it. How the hell can she really believe that i can't enjoy football without having to fuck a prostitute after a game? Talk about preconceived opinions.
"Men are pigs" pfff... That fucking feminist blogger is nothing but a filthy animal.

Since a new party started in Swedish politics, Feministic Initiative, I am no longer a feminist. I do believe that men and women should be equal to eachother, but the word feminist has got a new meaning to me. Feminism is now a synonyme to the word "sexism".
This party wanted all men to pay a certain tax that would pay for the rehabilitation of beat up women. Fucking fascists!

And have you heard about the book "The SCUM-manifest"? The author basically says that men are the reason why the world is as bad as it is, and that all women should exterminate the male gender. Hmm, that sounds familiar somehow. Could it be MEIN KAMPF, written by freakin ADOLF HITLER??? Only the word "jew" has been replaced by the word "male".

I am not a feminist, but I am a feminimasculinist. I don't want women to run the world. I want both men AND women to do it. Therefore, I am a feminimasculinist.
All feminists should burn in hell. Boycott feminism.



Page 19 of 19

Ganondox

Posts: 463

Age: 18
From: USA

  27.06.2014 at 17:54
Written by IronAngel on 26.06.2014 at 17:14

Well, you can safely assume Ilham was. It is, of course, always possible that the girl in the picture does not realize that the sign is nonsensical, but lacking any context, it seems blatantly sarcastic. Her point seems to be to draw attention from social issues like feminism to (in her mind) a much more pressing problem that potentially affects our survival as a species; or more crudely, just to make fun of feminism.

Either way, of course, it's a pretty stupid statement.


That makes sense, I figured IIham wasn't being serious as she is a girl and the preface she gave to the comment, but the girl in the pic is still cute.
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  28.09.2014 at 05:13
Written by Mattybu on 23.06.2014 at 21:25

I think Rasputin's problem is the "feminists" he has gotten exposure are all on the internet, and on the internet people can blog all the stupid shit they want, and go ahead and say "if you see a woman walking down the street and stare at them for 3.4 seconds or more it's RAPE AM I RIGHT LADIES???" and then they get a few dumb people to support them, then that's what some people's exposure to it is. Despite there being a small army of people who just take feminism to ridiculous extents the whole idea of it is equality, which I would think a lot of people don't believe simply because of the amount of so called feminists posting stupid shit online who give the goal of what feminism actually is (equality) a bad name.

and here's what I mean by the people who have no idea what they are talking about, and deserve to be thoroughly laughed at:



My problem is that in the entire movement there is no common sense, or an actual cohesive movement to speak off. Every dumb individual who poses as a feminist all of a sudden becomes a sage for the fragmented pockets of so called feminists that they in turn go into herd mentality and start supporting dumb shit. Like Slayer said, "if a guy looks at you for 3.5 seconds, he is Eye Raping you" and that is demeaning to women, yet going into porn, prostitution or stripping gives you a sense of honor because that gives you back your "female agency," like someone took it from you. The sad aspect is that you cannot tell feminists and feminazis apart, since they feed off each other, and they puff, puff, pass their bullshit. I have been to so many conferences where there were tons of women who label themselves feminists, and there were quite a few feminazis, however, the problem is that they don't police each other live, let alone online. So when that bullshit popped up YESallwomen and the like, you can't seem to find anyone to debate the issue. I just think if the feminists from the past were here and now, they would not believe or condone what is going on today, since like I said before, porn industry infiltrated the so called "women empowerment" movement that it seems the only way you can get back that feminine agency is to be a whore, and condone acts of one Belle Knox and call it liberating.
Twilight
IntepridTraveler

Posts: 1168
From: The Netherlands

  30.09.2014 at 16:39
Please watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsB1e-1BB4Y
----
And when our eyes will meet there
We will recognize nothing's wrong
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  02.10.2014 at 23:59
Watched it, interesting.

This is very interesting too, from your "normal" feminists

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/unlearning-patriarchal-lies/
Azarath

Posts: 501

Age: 31
From: Finland

  06.10.2014 at 20:36
Written by Rasputin on 02.10.2014 at 23:59

Watched it, interesting.

This is very interesting too, from your "normal" feminists

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/unlearning-patriarchal-lies/

I read it expecting some crazy ranting. I left feeling disappointed.

Just what about that did you find objectionable?
Twilight
IntepridTraveler

Posts: 1168
From: The Netherlands

  07.10.2014 at 11:48
^ I was thinking the same thing. But maybe he just thinks it's interesting and supports it. Because it is plain common sense to me.
----
And when our eyes will meet there
We will recognize nothing's wrong
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  07.10.2014 at 18:40
Ooops, wrong link. When I find the other one, I will post it.
IronAngel

Posts: 4393

Age: 25
From: Finland

  16.10.2014 at 19:57
I've been trying to wrap my head around this Gamergate bullshit and Anita Sarkeesian. I think it is a good example of both why feminism is needed and how unintelligent self-proclaimed feminists do harm to the cause. There is no question that Sarkeesian is full of shit, and it's not that her videos reveal any misogyny worth mentioning; but the reaction against them, ironically, does. It doesn't help that all reasonable arguments get dragged into ideological questions of what "side" you're on. It should really only be a question of whether or not you have a point.
Mattybu

Posts: 2395
From: Canada

  16.10.2014 at 23:44
Written by IronAngel on 16.10.2014 at 19:57

I've been trying to wrap my head around this Gamergate bullshit and Anita Sarkeesian.


That bitch (to use some scholarly feminist terminology) is the lesser of two evils, in the simplest way of putting it. Yeah, threatening to shoot up a school is bad (and that could be an empty threat of for all we know or even fabricated completely) but to be honest if you're going to be whack as fuck you don't really deserve to have a prominent voice in any industry.

The thing that leads me to believe it honestly might be fabricated by her to seem like the victim of THE PATRIARCHY is that I doubt even if someone did shoot up a school she would say "ok, I've realized the error of my ways, I'm gonna stop being a retard now". So the people who threatened that are really not accomplishing much even if they were to go through with their plans. Although I guess "they" did accomplish getting her to not give some dumbass speech, but maybe that's what she wanted all along, so she could be the poor victim and get all the sympathy. Who knows.
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  17.10.2014 at 21:15
The problem is blaming this mystical patriarchy for everything, the mythological white male privilege, perceived rape culture and the default red herring of victim blaming if you even suggest that the victim contributed to its victimization.

On one side you want to be equal and allegedly portray this idea that you are fighting for the rights of both sexes, but every time sometime displeases you, it is the fault of the patriarchy. The entire concept is a straw man, where you create this illusion that men either as a cohesive unit (conspiracy level) or individually perpetuate and feed this Patriarchy which is defined as a series of micro aggressions or most men, as a result of white male privilege that does not exist. The only people who have this privilege are the wealthy, average male does not have shit. So they begin to deconstruct, movies, video games, shows and just further drive this machinery that alienates males. Not to mention the "Eye Rape" craze that went on for a while, and yesallmen bullshit. Feminists, at least the ones that I see in college live in this world of theory, where everything is theory that becomes a fact, and when you are faced with a challenge, you use the cope out of patriarchy or whatever other feminist jargon suits you. I mean, these are the same females who claim to be strong and independent when it suits them, but when that is challenged then they want special treatment. One inherent thing among all feminists, the moderates and radicals, is this notion that they can never, ever be wrong for anything and they are never responsible for anything, no matter how stupid their choices are. Once you slap the etiquette of "victim" in the Western Society, especially the USA you are somehow above and beyond reproach, and the factors that contributed to your trauma can never and should never be examined. I read something in Psychology about this, it is an interesting phenomena. While I agree that all women should be free to do what they want with their bodies, and go wherever and whenever they please, at the same time I am aware that at this current junction it is rather impossible, since even myself as a male I am not able to go everywhere and do what I want and where I want without serious issues that would arise from it. Once they start using logic and reason instead of emotionally driven arguments that shut down any conversation, much like religious people have a tendency to do, there will be no progress, and there will be a greater rift between the sexes. The other thing is, continuing to perpetuate the same misguided ideology will just create more victims.
IronAngel

Posts: 4393

Age: 25
From: Finland

  17.10.2014 at 22:09
You make some good points (though you also make some indefensible generalisations about victimisation etc.), but I think you miss the point of "patriarchy"; patriarchy, such as it is, is not something all men are in on or contribute to. It is a structure, a discourse, an assumption which places certain men - "patriarchs" - in a privileged or hegemonous position in society. Not all men are patriarchs, and every individual in a society - man, woman, of whatever social status - is defined somehow in relation to the patriarchy. A good feminist knows this. The situations of men and women aren't by no means the same in society, but they're both conditioned in various specific ways by surrounding power structures, norms, gender discourse or whatever. This perspective was fruitfully used in an article on bachelor sons of patrician families in Renaissance Florence by I-don't-remember-who. My point is, we can talk about the patriarchy but it doesn't mean a war of individual men (or even Men as a category) against women; it means a certain social order which imposes certain norms and expectations on both men and women (it's hardly easy or optional for the son of a wealthy family to adopt the restricting role of a patriarch, for example). I don't think the patriarchy is some scary bogey-man that needs to be pulled out at every juncture, but it is good to be aware of these historical structures that still affect the way we're socialised.

I don't know just how accurate or how useful it is as a concept for analysing modern society, but it's cerainly applicable for a historian like myself. But, to be fair, I don't think modern gender studies really rely on the concept as much as, say, in the heyday of the 70s. In any case, it needs to be qualified.
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  18.10.2014 at 00:41
Written by IronAngel on 17.10.2014 at 22:09

You make some good points (though you also make some indefensible generalisations about victimisation etc.), but I think you miss the point of "patriarchy"; patriarchy, such as it is, is not something all men are in on or contribute to. It is a structure, a discourse, an assumption which places certain men - "patriarchs" - in a privileged or hegemonous position in society. Not all men are patriarchs, and every individual in a society - man, woman, of whatever social status - is defined somehow in relation to the patriarchy. A good feminist knows this. The situations of men and women aren't by no means the same in society, but they're both conditioned in various specific ways by surrounding power structures, norms, gender discourse or whatever. This perspective was fruitfully used in an article on bachelor sons of patrician families in Renaissance Florence by I-don't-remember-who. My point is, we can talk about the patriarchy but it doesn't mean a war of individual men (or even Men as a category) against women; it means a certain social order which imposes certain norms and expectations on both men and women (it's hardly easy or optional for the son of a wealthy family to adopt the restricting role of a patriarch, for example). I don't think the patriarchy is some scary bogey-man that needs to be pulled out at every juncture, but it is good to be aware of these historical structures that still affect the way we're socialised.

I don't know just how accurate or how useful it is as a concept for analysing modern society, but it's cerainly applicable for a historian like myself. But, to be fair, I don't think modern gender studies really rely on the concept as much as, say, in the heyday of the 70s. In any case, it needs to be qualified.

I'm not making generalizations, I am just using the experiences I had when discussing with various feminists from the USA. I just had a huge debate two weeks ago in which I got deleted from the group because I did not contribute to their pity party. One of the members was recounting her tale how she almost got attacked and she escaped, and when she called the Cops, the Cops said that they could not do much for her, since no physical contact was made, the guy was gone and they only have her word against his. She called this Rape Culture and perfect example of Patriarchy. I wondered would she have said the same thing if the police officers were female and told her the same thing. While I do believe her that the incident almost happened, at the same time we have to use evidence to prove something, but what I see that is happening more and more, especially now on College campuses in the USA (check California) is this notion that if a female reports that she was raped or assaulted that is fool proof and could not and should not be questioned. So what in fact they are doing, is trying to coerce a change in legislation where you could accuse anyone of anything with no evidence, and that your words are truth and that's that. I believe I used this example time and time again in discussions with them (when you can have a discussion that does not turn into, feminist jargon fest of "slut shaming" "victim blaming" "misogyny") when you have two intoxicated individuals having sex. Morning comes, she's not happy with her choice, and she accuses him of raping her. There are numerous cases where innocent men were sentenced to prison for something they did not commit. What this alerts me too, is giving a female, and only a female (since a man stating he was raped by a woman is dismissed and laughed at) has the sole right to dictate if something was rape just because she can. This is why I cringe when I hear men getting arrested and sentenced with no evidence, no forensic evidence to speak off. Yeah, I had a sex with a guy last week, he pissed me off, so I'm going to say he raped me, and boom, the guy is done. I'm not the one who has a wrong view on "Patriarchy" that is not my jargon, I'm just pointing out what I perceived over several years, and I already know ahead where the discussion ends on any of these topics. That is a big issue. While I agree with your definition of what patriarchy may be, or may have been, I doubt the feminists would see it as such. You know, for a group who's allegedly willing to discuss things, they really do not like to communicate with anyone who uses logic and reason that is contrary to their emotion fueled theories. So, going back to my story, for the next 20 posts, they ranted and raved about it, and threw a pity party, and the only thing I asked was how will she try to prevent something from happening again. They got pissed of course, told me I was "victim blaming" and told me that there was no lesson to be learned here, that she was not responsible for anything and that the patriarchy was. And that is exactly what I am talking about. Another interesting thing I found out was that what I say depends on my gender. One time I told my female friend to join the group and type what I tell her to type, and surprisingly she did not get banned, however, the feminists formed up and tried to "correct" her way of thinking which was massively influenced by the patriarchy.

Ultimately, what happens is that even if you have the feminists who are normal and logical, they are rarely heard, because their voices are drowned in a sea of nonsense. And also, as the years go buy, I see that the feminist movement is becoming more militant, and that they themselves continue to utilize "micro aggressions" and sometimes full on verbal assault because they disagree and are unwilling to debate. What we will find happening, and it is happening right now, is the fact that feminism on top of shooting itself in the foot, and being a detriment for the whole equality movement and women rights, is ostracizing males and continues to fuel a gender/sex war. They claim they are about equality and that they care about men, but every time there is a conference on male issues, they threaten with violence and even terrorism. I think most recently there was an issue in Detroit or someplace like that, where the meeting had to be cancelled since the feminists had a problem with that and the conference people got death threats and bomb threats. In my eyes, feminism became a monster, and went way off the path of actual equality, and I think that the old feminists from 1900's and beyond, could not believe what kind of a disaster it resulted in. I am pro women rights, just not feminism if that makes any sense to you.
IronAngel

Posts: 4393

Age: 25
From: Finland

  18.10.2014 at 11:09
Again, I agree with you, but you're still generalising. Based on your own experience or not, things like "I doubt the feminists would see it as such" and "one inherent thing among all feminists --- is this notion that they can never, ever be wrong for anything and they are never responsible for anything" are pretty gross generalisations. I'm not even going to go down the tired road of "but this isn't what feminism and good feminists are about"; even without any argument to the contrary, the polemic and polarising nature of such sweeping statements should be obvious. I mean, I definitely identify as a feminist, but I don't recognise myself in your description (except that I'm never wrong, ha). I have been caught in just the kind of bullshit debates on Facebook as you describe; not because I was "less" feminist than my opponent but because I challenged her dogmatic generalisations and tried to actually focus on the specific issue she raised. That's one problem in these debates: recourse to big ideological stances and theories and not a rigid focus specifics. Individual cases are hand-waved as belonging to some general trend ("patriarchy" or "rape-culture") instead of investigating what's wrong with this individual case, if anything.

What you're describing isn't somehow inherent to feminism, I think. It has more to to do with social media, with every uneducated, unintelligent pleb with a righteous anger suddenly having the means to express themselves; indeed, everyone is expected to have an opinion and take a stance on big issues, whether they have the capacity or not. We live in an era of social justice warriors. Mob mentality is everywhere on the internet, among men and women alike, and god forbid you try to have a reasonable conversation in a Facebook group or YouTube comments on anything even slightly unorthodox - the rights of pedophiles, animals, multiculturalism, whatever.

I don't know if you've read it, but Caitlin Moran's recent best-seller, How to Be a Woman, was a pretty level-headed, funny and perceptive expression of feminism. There was no mention of "rape culture", just a very practical look at some of the mundane, every-day issues that women have to deal with in their lives. In her opinion, there's no reason to be afraid of the word "feminism" since it has nothing to do with the way it's being wielded by internet social justice warriors. I agree with her that women aren't systematically or maliciously, or at all, oppressed by men, but there are still plenty of structures and just small, practical things that put women in a more difficult position (I should know, watching my wife making a career in the still male-dominated, traditional academia), and plenty of taboos and norms that make it difficult to know just how to become a woman. (Though growing up to be a man has its difficulties, too; Moran's is a semiautobiography, so obviously that's not her focus.) I mean, this myth that feminism "nowadays" is corrupt and twisted and equals the BS you see on YouTube is just not true; there's plenty of good feminist literature out there.
Mattybu

Posts: 2395
From: Canada

  18.10.2014 at 19:10
Written by Rasputin on 18.10.2014 at 00:41

Ultimately, what happens is that even if you have the feminists who are normal and logical, they are rarely heard, because their voices are drowned in a sea of nonsense. And also, as the years go buy, I see that the feminist movement is becoming more militant, and that they themselves continue to utilize "micro aggressions" and sometimes full on verbal assault because they disagree and are unwilling to debate. What we will find happening, and it is happening right now, is the fact that feminism on top of shooting itself in the foot, and being a detriment for the whole equality movement and women rights, is ostracizing males and continues to fuel a gender/sex war. They claim they are about equality and that they care about men, but every time there is a conference on male issues, they threaten with violence and even terrorism. I think most recently there was an issue in Detroit or someplace like that, where the meeting had to be cancelled since the feminists had a problem with that and the conference people got death threats and bomb threats. In my eyes, feminism became a monster, and went way off the path of actual equality, and I think that the old feminists from 1900's and beyond, could not believe what kind of a disaster it resulted in. I am pro women rights, just not feminism if that makes any sense to you.


Seen a few mans trash talking you on this site and probably for other reasons but you definitely aren't dumb about some things you bring up some good points here. I don't think you can really be pro womens right and anti feminist though. Like IronAngel said (and it becomes tiresome to repeat) feminism isn't about the retards who don't listen to logic and rely on jargon that claims the patriarchy is out to get them in every situation. But I get what you're saying. Being against the stubborn, militant, hypocritical, ignorant type feminists is all good with me
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  18.10.2014 at 19:15
I agree with you. And now I didn't hear about that book. I will check it out. I think because of that mob mentality is why the feminism is in stagnation as is actually retrograding. While there may be great literature there, and level headed feminists, it is hard to find them. Every year I go to academic conferences and meet hundreds of women, and one thing that I keep noticing, regardless of the education level, is the lack of critical thinking outside of their field. And I keep listening to PhD students, Professors and Master level students go into this circular argument where the individuality of the situation you mention is not addressed, and huffingtonpost and bitchmedia and few other places are utilized and glorified exclusively, on top of utilizing the preapproved feminist theory such as Mary Wollstonecraft, Betty Friedan and few others.

Don't you think that the internet has more influence over people as a whole? I mean, while do not disagree that there are people out there that are feminists that want equality and are above this BS jargon that keeps getting thrown around, the mob rule is overwhelming. I think because of these internet warriors is why we have an issue in the first place, where they create a gender war and start thriving on conflict.
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  18.10.2014 at 19:21
Written by Mattybu on 18.10.2014 at 19:10

Written by Rasputin on 18.10.2014 at 00:41

Ultimately, what happens is that even if you have the feminists who are normal and logical, they are rarely heard, because their voices are drowned in a sea of nonsense. And also, as the years go buy, I see that the feminist movement is becoming more militant, and that they themselves continue to utilize "micro aggressions" and sometimes full on verbal assault because they disagree and are unwilling to debate. What we will find happening, and it is happening right now, is the fact that feminism on top of shooting itself in the foot, and being a detriment for the whole equality movement and women rights, is ostracizing males and continues to fuel a gender/sex war. They claim they are about equality and that they care about men, but every time there is a conference on male issues, they threaten with violence and even terrorism. I think most recently there was an issue in Detroit or someplace like that, where the meeting had to be cancelled since the feminists had a problem with that and the conference people got death threats and bomb threats. In my eyes, feminism became a monster, and went way off the path of actual equality, and I think that the old feminists from 1900's and beyond, could not believe what kind of a disaster it resulted in. I am pro women rights, just not feminism if that makes any sense to you.


Seen a few mans trash talking you on this site and probably for other reasons but you definitely aren't dumb about some things you bring up some good points here. I don't think you can really be pro womens right and anti feminist though. Like IronAngel said (and it becomes tiresome to repeat) feminism isn't about the retards who don't listen to logic and rely on jargon that claims the patriarchy is out to get them in every situation. But I get what you're saying. Being against the stubborn, militant, hypocritical, ignorant type feminists is all good with me

Oh yeah, I have a little fan base here for quite some time. Let's say my views are a tad bit radical, and let's assume that I just don't care and say whatever I want. People think that whatever is said here is true, and that the person who's saying it, is serious. I love internet because of that reason. So many roles to play.

I think I can, since I don't think that those two terms are not synonyms anymore, at least if we are to trust the internet. So until those stubborn, militant, hypocritical and ignorant type feminists are gone...I will be an anti-feminist...which means, a fuckload of time
Mattybu

Posts: 2395
From: Canada

  18.10.2014 at 19:29
Written by Rasputin on 18.10.2014 at 19:21

Oh yeah, I have a little fan base here for quite some time. Let's say my views are a tad bit radical, and let's assume that I just don't care and say whatever I want. People think that whatever is said here is true, and that the person who's saying it, is serious. I love internet because of that reason. So many roles to play.

I think I can, since I don't think that those two terms are not synonyms anymore, at least if we are to trust the internet. So until those stubborn, militant, hypocritical and ignorant type feminists are gone...I will be an anti-feminist...which means, a fuckload of time


Well, I like it when people speak their mind. Even if it is bullshit, then you get a chance to tell them they're saying bullshit, and it's interesting to hear honest perspectives as opposed to the same stuff over and over.

As far as the terminology goes I look at it like the word "literally". People have misused the word "literally" so much nowadays that, as defined by the dictionary it can actually mean "figuratively". But when someone says "literally", I assume they mean the original meaning. So I sort of relate it to feminism in that way. Yes many members of the group have warped the goals/ideology, but at the same time when I hear someone is a feminist I will still give them some chance, because they're not all bad. But again I get what you're saying.

The ones that get attention on the internet are usually bad though
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  18.10.2014 at 19:40
Written by Mattybu on 18.10.2014 at 19:29

Written by Rasputin on 18.10.2014 at 19:21

Oh yeah, I have a little fan base here for quite some time. Let's say my views are a tad bit radical, and let's assume that I just don't care and say whatever I want. People think that whatever is said here is true, and that the person who's saying it, is serious. I love internet because of that reason. So many roles to play.

I think I can, since I don't think that those two terms are not synonyms anymore, at least if we are to trust the internet. So until those stubborn, militant, hypocritical and ignorant type feminists are gone...I will be an anti-feminist...which means, a fuckload of time


Well, I like it when people speak their mind. Even if it is bullshit, then you get a chance to tell them they're saying bullshit, and it's interesting to hear honest perspectives as opposed to the same stuff over and over.

As far as the terminology goes I look at it like the word "literally". People have misused the word "literally" so much nowadays that, as defined by the dictionary it can actually mean "figuratively". But when someone says "literally", I assume they mean the original meaning. So I sort of relate it to feminism in that way. Yes many members of the group have warped the goals/ideology, but at the same time when I hear someone is a feminist I will still give them some chance, because they're not all bad. But again I get what you're saying.

The ones that get attention on the internet are usually bad though

I would support Equalism, without the gender warfare and bullshit from either side. I find it interesting that there is very little dialogue going on, there is only finger pointing (mostly done by female actually since the guys are "i don't give a fuck" for the most part)

Well, what can I say...I'm a bad, bad man...when I want to be
Twilight
IntepridTraveler

Posts: 1168
From: The Netherlands

  24.10.2014 at 00:05
So yeah. Okay. Let's not call it 'feminism' anymore. But I hope I do not need to stress that there still is a huge problem with equality.
And yes; for both male and female there are problems that coexist because of the other. Some men are now frightened of women who stand up for themselves. Still there are a lot of women who get death threats just because of a blog about problems they encounter in their life just because of their gender. So first it was Anita, now it is Felicia Day. And there are many others.

Please read this: http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate
And this: http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/10/23/3583347/felicia-day-gamergate/

I am getting tired of this throwing of shit to every other group of people that says they're being discriminated. If they are, then for god's sake, let's talk. What is so hard about listening to each other? This stuff is still happening a lot. And yes, for both genders. But it's real. Is it so hard to admit that? I am really not surprised there are some women who've gotten sick of men by now. Because I too was surprised at what some men just say without hesitation, without any sign of thought about it. I didn't think it happened so often, but it does. If I would get shit over me day after day because of some birds flying over the place all the time, I would start to hate birds too.
But let's not feel offended for something you didn't do. If you don't think you've offended someone, then don't be upset. But it does need some thought, in my opinion. This is something beneath the surface that needs to be dealt with. It needs awareness.

I've read some blogs (in Dutch, so no use posting them here) of women being discriminated in horrible ways. Jokes about rape. Things I read and think 'What the FUCK are these people? Why is this happening?' I am really disappointed in society. This shit just needs to stop. Can't we just acknowledge there are problems instead of denying them?

Maybe I am making things too big. But I don't see that as a problem. Let it be big. Because this really needs to be talked about. If people here support equalism, then let's do this!

I think this needs way more attention than it is getting right now. It is the only way to get this to a higher level and debate. More people should talk about this. How is it happening that women get death threats and don't even dare to leave their house anymore because of some things they said online?

By the way, where have all the women that once posted in this thread gone?
----
And when our eyes will meet there
We will recognize nothing's wrong
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  25.10.2014 at 06:58
Written by Twilight on 24.10.2014 at 00:05

So yeah. Okay. Let's not call it 'feminism' anymore. But I hope I do not need to stress that there still is a huge problem with equality.
And yes; for both male and female there are problems that coexist because of the other. Some men are now frightened of women who stand up for themselves. Still there are a lot of women who get death threats just because of a blog about problems they encounter in their life just because of their gender. So first it was Anita, now it is Felicia Day. And there are many others.

Please read this: http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate
And this: http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/10/23/3583347/felicia-day-gamergate/

I am getting tired of this throwing of shit to every other group of people that says they're being discriminated. If they are, then for god's sake, let's talk. What is so hard about listening to each other? This stuff is still happening a lot. And yes, for both genders. But it's real. Is it so hard to admit that? I am really not surprised there are some women who've gotten sick of men by now. Because I too was surprised at what some men just say without hesitation, without any sign of thought about it. I didn't think it happened so often, but it does. If I would get shit over me day after day because of some birds flying over the place all the time, I would start to hate birds too.
But let's not feel offended for something you didn't do. If you don't think you've offended someone, then don't be upset. But it does need some thought, in my opinion. This is something beneath the surface that needs to be dealt with. It needs awareness.

I've read some blogs (in Dutch, so no use posting them here) of women being discriminated in horrible ways. Jokes about rape. Things I read and think 'What the FUCK are these people? Why is this happening?' I am really disappointed in society. This shit just needs to stop. Can't we just acknowledge there are problems instead of denying them?

Maybe I am making things too big. But I don't see that as a problem. Let it be big. Because this really needs to be talked about. If people here support equalism, then let's do this!

I think this needs way more attention than it is getting right now. It is the only way to get this to a higher level and debate. More people should talk about this. How is it happening that women get death threats and don't even dare to leave their house anymore because of some things they said online?

By the way, where have all the women that once posted in this thread gone?

I think you are expecting a miracle. In this day and age, with every chance of communication being enhanced and being readily available, we are more silent then ever. While I agree that we should call it "equalism" I doubt the feminists will agree with that, and honestly, you can name it however you want at this point, no one is listening anymore, because every group wants everything now and every group is playing the political game of "I'm more oppressed, I am a greater victim." We have too many followers, and not enough leaders, at least not with common sense. Every side wants something, without realizing or considering the issue of the other. I gave numerous examples of instances when in this case feminist just don't want to talk. As long as you agree with them 100% it is all good, you pose a serious question for pondering, and it's an all out war. The shit will not stop, because most of the bridges were burned long ago. And as far as the attention goes, I think even the people who are for many changes and willing to discuss are burnt out, because of constant bombarding. I am always willing to talk, and discuss stuff, but as it was noticed I am not delicate at that, I am a dick, but an honest dick when I want to be.

And I'm going to go misogyny mode here and say, "They're probably making a sandwich." Just kidding.

So, what exactly is it that you want to discuss, what particular issue?
Twilight
IntepridTraveler

Posts: 1168
From: The Netherlands

  25.10.2014 at 23:37
Written by Rasputin on 25.10.2014 at 06:58
And I'm going to go misogyny mode here and say, "They're probably making a sandwich." Just kidding.

Well, anyone can just happen to make a sandwich for him or herself, right? No harm in that.

I guess I am expecting a miracle, because most people don't really want to change, unfortunately. I am not sure about the whole terminology, but honestly I don't care how it is called. For me it is just called common sense. And it comes down to very simple things. And to really listen to people. For example, it's sometimes the small seemingly harmless but degrading comments guys can say to women. And of course, this can happen the other way around too. I am not sure if I really want to discuss a particular issue, I'd prefer to just ask people to consider this. Sometimes it can be seen as a joke, but one always has to take into account how the other person feels about this. I am not pleading for a 'always-consider-the-feelings', but some things can really be considered.

A comparable situation: Let me tell you about this Dutch phenomenon called 'Zwarte Piet' ('Black Pete' or 'Black face'). It is part of an annual celebration called 'Sinterklaas' and is a bit similar to Christmas. This is what they look like. (Note that these are all dressed up white folks, and that this kind of portrayal of native African people has already been a taboo for quite some time) Now most of you who live in some other country than the Netherlands might think very different things about this. But in the past few years more and more Dutch people realized that this fictive person is quite racist (Something people from outside the Netherlands noticed from the first moment they saw this). There is now a growing group of people who want to change this. But this is retaliated by others who love the tradition and don't think it is racist at all.
But this is what I mean. There are quite a lot of people who are really offended by this thing, yet others are saying that it isn't meant offensive at all. They are never considering the effect of this tradition to people who feel obviously offended by it. I think this is quite egocentric and not considerate at all. A society could also just change some things of this tradition and make everyone happy again. Yet these suggestions for change caused people to become extremely angry, threatening people with death, suggesting they should just leave the country if they don't like it, etcetera.

This is the same with many other kinds of discrimination. It just became this way gradually over a very long period of time and people find it hard to change these things. For example, when a Dutch couple decides to buy a house and the woman is the one who is paying and arranging everything, it is still the male half of the couple who receives all of the communication. Just by tradition. It has always been this way. This can even happen when the man explicitly mentions that he does not want to receive these things. For some reason or another the male keeps being seen as the head of the household, the one who earns all the money to feed his wife and children. Incredibly based on tradition.

Another great example is that women still do not get equal pay for equal work. I already posted this link earlier, but here it is again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsB1e-1BB4Y
This is still true even in almost every first world country. Here in the Netherlands they have made laws to fight this, yet it still happens. I am not really able to grasp why this is, how someone in their right mind can just go through with this kind of thing without feeling any kind of regret.

Same thing is happening with this gamer gate thing. Some guys (most likely not a very large group) are somehow really afraid that these women who they are threatening want to change the way games are made forever and always. Also based on tradition, because throughout the small history that games have, they have almost always been made by men. And that has also been the primary target audience. But this has already been changing for almost a decade. I am not sure Anita Sarkeesian is right in everything she says, but I think there are some good points to consider. And if she isn't right, she still does not deserve all the bizarre threats she received up until now. And as I said before, she is far from the only one receiving these death (and rape) threats.

I don't know what particular issue I'd really like to discuss. Maybe that this really can be changed, if people just genuinely want it? I am not sure if it is true about these bridges you mention. Why do you think most bridges were burned long ago? What bridges are you talking about exactly? Because what I think should happen is just this little bit of change in awareness. That when someone is discriminated other people don't shy away but say something. I've noticed I am far from the only one who wants this. But I don't think this will happen overnight or in a few years. It cannot be changed with a protest. This is something that so many cultures have as a basis. And maybe what I'd like to see happening is a realization among people in first world countries that even in their own countries inequalities still exist. Many people believe that they are living in a free country where everyone is treated equal, which apparently is not true, unfortunately.

Maybe there is a game being played for politicians to receive some kind of fund for their cause, but aside from that I do not really believe in this political game you mention. I think one can be a supporter of them all at the same time. It doesn't take so much energy, just some awareness and a change in mindset. You don't need to be at the front of a protest to show your dedication. Fortunately, one can do this at his computer right now almost just as easy.
----
And when our eyes will meet there
We will recognize nothing's wrong
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  26.10.2014 at 16:36
It is hard to change a single person, let alone a culture. I can see your points when it comes to the Dutch tradition, however, if the intent or the make up, has nothing to do with slavery and something like that, I don't see a real problem there. I'm not familiar with the history of Netherlands, but were they at a certain point slave traders? What would happen if black people painted their faces white, would that be racist? I think this trend, while being out in the openly so overt is bound to be attacked, unlike the covert pieces of African clothing, hair style, jewelry and such. I notice in the USA a massive influence of the tribal stuff from the South, with ear gauges and body scarification and modification. That got absorbed quite easy, and it has nothing to do with the white people or their culture. So I don;t know. I guess we have to go for intent here, but that is where we have an issue. In recent years the policies have changed to reflected how someone feels and forgets intent. For instance, at the workplace, you give someone a hug, it does not matter if your intentions were friendly, what only matters is if person got offended or not. We live in a world governed by feelings and emotions not logic and reason. I think that is a direct influence of the feminist movement. So that leaves the majority of the discourse in the emotional/feeling arena where you cannot fight it, and that is how a culture is set up, it is a belief and emotion and henceforth harder to change.

You see, I have no problem with gender roles in certain instances. I have a huge problem with that getting completely destroyed, and creating from two sexes one sex and calling it "IT." In USA we have more and more males with feminine features, clothing, thinking and reasoning, and I find that disturbing. Here it almost seems that there is an open war on Y chromosome. This is where a large portion of the battle occurs. Feminists speak off "equality" and they are correlating it with sameness, and that just wont fly. While we should have equal rights, we are not equal or the same. We are governed by different hormones, different thinking process, different body and muscle mass, and honestly, I think each gender/sex compliments one another. What I see on one side is this bashing of males and double standards. It is not alright for a male to raise his voice and to be strong, because the females can be frightened, yet at the same token when the women scream and start acting more like a male than a female, then it is all good. Another interesting observation I made with radical feminism, is this hatred towards males and at the same time emulating behavior and look of a male. But unfortunately, all of these things I speak off, are not mentioned or allowed to be discussed, and like you said, people wont change.

I think the entire argument over the equality could've been resolved sooner, like the issue of the same sex marriage in the USA, if in the second instance there was a bill for domestic partnership instead of marriage, and in the first instance, if certain roles were altered slightly, but leaving the functioning unit of a family structure operational. I am one of those people who has no problem with women working, having a career and all that, however, I am old school, and I believe that a male needs to be the head of the household since it is in the structure of a true male to be dominant, it is as much biology as it is nurture.

i also agree that she should not have been threatened, but people get threatened by people all the time, this issue with males versus females is no different, and any other instance is no different. I mentioned before about the all male conference that the feminists threatened to blow up, and were causing ruckus. That's another thing. You want equality, you want to be treated the same, alright, you start being a disrespecting and attacking bitch, you'll get slapped like one. Women are not these pristine little innocent flowers that are easily broken, so they want equality, we give them equality, which means, next time there is a divorce, she does not get the majority of the house and money, does not get first dibs on kids, does not get reduced sentences for murder, homicide and other violations, does not get the benefit of a doubt during a domestic disturbance and so on and so forth. This is another issue that is not discussed. Feminists refuse to acknowledge that they themselves have privileges of their gender as well even when you point it out to them. I'm seeing several of these cases where Teachers had sex with underage students, all of the males got branded and got in huge trouble, with the females it was a mixed bag, where some got reduced sentences.

I have a slight issue accepting that the women get less pay. I watched the video and it looks interesting, but I am looking at it from mere economical and financial standpoint. If you have a group of people, in this case females that get paid less then men for the same job, why doesn't everyone just hire females and fire all the males, that way you would have equal pay for all females in a sense, and an insane profit. This kind of reminds me of that rape statistic that 1 in 5 females will get raped in their lifetime and that is such a twisted statistic that I do not know where to start.

These are some issues I chose to discuss, feel free to let me know what you think, even if you disagree with me. And let's continue keeping it civil, because this is nice in comparison to other instances where these issues are raised
Ozman
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 36719

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  26.10.2014 at 16:53
Written by Twilight on 25.10.2014 at 23:37

There are quite a lot of people who are really offended by this thing


Since when is 17% quite a lot?
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Twilight
IntepridTraveler

Posts: 1168
From: The Netherlands

  26.10.2014 at 17:34
^ I guess because I'm involved in this, it is a bit hard for me to see the bigger picture. I wasn't aware of that statistic. I guess perspective is anything. But it was just a mere comparison, and while 17% of 16 million is still quite a lot, it does not make a difference for what I wanted to say with it.

As for Rasputin's response; I will reply later, when I have a bit more spare time.
----
And when our eyes will meet there
We will recognize nothing's wrong
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38463

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  26.10.2014 at 17:41
Written by Twilight on 26.10.2014 at 17:34

^ I guess because I'm involved in this, it is a bit hard for me to see the bigger picture. I wasn't aware of that statistic. I guess perspective is anything. But it was just a mere comparison, and while 17% of 16 million is still quite a lot, it does not make a difference for what I wanted to say with it.

As for Rasputin's response; I will reply later, when I have a bit more spare time.


well disagree 17% is not much as % even as number, but many people have no own opinium and many ppl just say because someone who is some kind a leader says , 40% + is a lot -- where you need to make some law, like referendum about hmmm Euro 17% vote No, 73% Yes. that 17 wont make
Scotand where was close 55% stay 45% not stay , those are BOG numbers in both sides
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Twilight
IntepridTraveler

Posts: 1168
From: The Netherlands

  26.10.2014 at 18:52
^ Oh God, no. Please don't continue on this. It was just an example. Please improve your reading skills.

Written by Rasputin on 26.10.2014 at 16:36

It is hard to change a single person, let alone a culture. I can see your points when it comes to the Dutch tradition, however, if the intent or the make up, has nothing to do with slavery and something like that, I don't see a real problem there. I'm not familiar with the history of Netherlands, but were they at a certain point slave traders? What would happen if black people painted their faces white, would that be racist?

I am not sure, this is kind of hypothetical so I don't really know the answer to this. This might be considered racist too, yes. But since the white/caucasian race has always somehow acted as the superior race - looking at the Dutch slavetrading history, it is only logical to conclude that hispanic and african people are offended by this.

Quote:
I think this trend, while being out in the openly so overt is bound to be attacked, unlike the covert pieces of African clothing, hair style, jewelry and such. I notice in the USA a massive influence of the tribal stuff from the South, with ear gauges and body scarification and modification. That got absorbed quite easy, and it has nothing to do with the white people or their culture. So I don;t know. I guess we have to go for intent here, but that is where we have an issue. In recent years the policies have changed to reflected how someone feels and forgets intent. For instance, at the workplace, you give someone a hug, it does not matter if your intentions were friendly, what only matters is if person got offended or not. We live in a world governed by feelings and emotions not logic and reason. I think that is a direct influence of the feminist movement. So that leaves the majority of the discourse in the emotional/feeling arena where you cannot fight it, and that is how a culture is set up, it is a belief and emotion and henceforth harder to change.

While I agree on the emotional arena which isn't really a good place for discussion, I do not entirely agree with you on the intent-part. It is quite a strange problem we have here. Intent can be good and friendly, but it might be received not as friendly. This is something that varies with every personality. So it is hard to discuss this as a general matter, but I think this is where human empathy comes in. I mean, we all have this quality, so why not use it? I agree that we shouldn't let emotion govern everything we do, but if someone takes offensive in something that I do, my first reaction is usually 'But why is that?' Just talking about these issues can already be enough in most of the cases.
Unfortunately, there are also many cases in which a degrading comment is disguised as something that can also be perceived as a positive remark. This can often be distinguished by its sarcastic or aggressive tone. For example, a comment with a sexist tone directed at a woman who is just passing by. There is almost no woman who is charmed by these kind of things, yet they keep happening. And if the target of the comment has a cold answer in return, she often gets things thrown toward her like 'Hey, I was just giving you a good comment!' or something similar. Even when the starting comment had very sexist tones.
I am not sure what you think about this, but there are many people who would say 'ah, it's just words, let it go.' Even while a lot of women are really bothered by this. I would say: If it is such a majority who experiences these things as degrading and negative, is it really so hard to just change your behavior about this a little bit? Just no sexist comments anymore, it shouldn't be that hard.

Edit: I forgot about it, but there is a term for this; 'cat calling'. I guess that's what I tried to describe here. Most people who resort to this never really seem to consider how it could be received. It's as if it's so culturally embedded that no-one seems to really think about it anymore.

Quote:
You see, I have no problem with gender roles in certain instances. I have a huge problem with that getting completely destroyed, and creating from two sexes one sex and calling it "IT." In USA we have more and more males with feminine features, clothing, thinking and reasoning, and I find that disturbing. Here it almost seems that there is an open war on Y chromosome.

I understand what you mean. But I don't think I really see this as a problem. Doesn't everyone just have the right to live their life the way they want it? If a man feels more feminine than masculine, I think he has every right to wear women's clothes, or go for a sex-change. Why do you see this as a war on the Y chromosome? It might be an increasing amount of people who might like to cross-dress or whatever, but I bet more than enough men still like to wear suits. Not something you should worry about, if you ask me.

Quote:
This is where a large portion of the battle occurs. Feminists speak off "equality" and they are correlating it with sameness, and that just wont fly. While we should have equal rights, we are not equal or the same. We are governed by different hormones, different thinking process, different body and muscle mass, and honestly, I think each gender/sex compliments one another. What I see on one side is this bashing of males and double standards. It is not alright for a male to raise his voice and to be strong, because the females can be frightened, yet at the same token when the women scream and start acting more like a male than a female, then it is all good. Another interesting observation I made with radical feminism, is this hatred towards males and at the same time emulating behavior and look of a male. But unfortunately, all of these things I speak off, are not mentioned or allowed to be discussed, and like you said, people wont change.

I do agree with you that it goes way too far to go for an 'IT', instead of a 'he' or 'she'. Yes, there definitely are differences between the genders. It saddens me to read that these feminists you have spoken with seem to correlate equality with sameness. This is indeed not true. But in my opinion there are really numerous qualities from both genders that most of the time just mix a little bit. I think this is why some men like to wear women's clothes. But don't forget that this also happens the other way around. And what about androgyne people?

I think there is room to discuss every issue part of the bigger problem. It is sad that some women have developed this hatred towards males, but I think they must have their reasons for this. Besides, there are also many women or feminists who also look down on this, even here in Metalstorm there are female members who already told you they reject this behavior. And I bet they are far from the only ones.

Quote:
I think the entire argument over the equality could've been resolved sooner, like the issue of the same sex marriage in the USA, if in the second instance there was a bill for domestic partnership instead of marriage, and in the first instance, if certain roles were altered slightly, but leaving the functioning unit of a family structure operational. I am one of those people who has no problem with women working, having a career and all that, however, I am old school, and I believe that a male needs to be the head of the household since it is in the structure of a true male to be dominant, it is as much biology as it is nurture.

I like that you admit here in saying you are 'old school'. I guess this is where we differ in opinion. For several years gay couples who adopted children really had not much trouble raising them, I guess that is more than enough proof they can manage. Even with a lesbian couple, where no man is involved in.
I don't believe it is in the nature of a male to be dominant, this could be much more attributed to nurture, in my opinion. And this makes sense, because that is why commercials for Action Man(tm) are targetted at boys, for example. And in contemporary society it is no longer necessary for men to go out hunting and bring food and for the women to raise the kids. That is what I like about these times, they are so incredibly dynamic.

Quote:
I also agree that she should not have been threatened, but people get threatened by people all the time, this issue with males versus females is no different, and any other instance is no different. I mentioned before about the all male conference that the feminists threatened to blow up, and were causing ruckus. That's another thing. You want equality, you want to be treated the same, alright, you start being a disrespecting and attacking bitch, you'll get slapped like one. Women are not these pristine little innocent flowers that are easily broken, so they want equality, we give them equality, which means, next time there is a divorce, she does not get the majority of the house and money, does not get first dibs on kids, does not get reduced sentences for murder, homicide and other violations, does not get the benefit of a doubt during a domestic disturbance and so on and so forth. This is another issue that is not discussed. Feminists refuse to acknowledge that they themselves have privileges of their gender as well even when you point it out to them. I'm seeing several of these cases where Teachers had sex with underage students, all of the males got branded and got in huge trouble, with the females it was a mixed bag, where some got reduced sentences.

Yes, I definitely agree with you here. If you want to be treated like everyone else, expect the same treatment as everyone else. This is definitely why women should not expect a different treatment if they do want equal rights. Makes sense! Yet, I have not really encountered many women who really get upset about these things. In fact, they often get upset when they remain to be viewed by men as 'pristine little innocent flowers that are easily broken'. Most women that I know would probably slap me if I would see them like that, haha!

There can definitely be a hypocrisy here. But I guess people who have a hard time dealing with reality will always find a way to misuse their rights and people around them.

Quote:
I have a slight issue accepting that the women get less pay. I watched the video and it looks interesting, but I am looking at it from mere economical and financial standpoint. If you have a group of people, in this case females that get paid less then men for the same job, why doesn't everyone just hire females and fire all the males, that way you would have equal pay for all females in a sense, and an insane profit. This kind of reminds me of that rape statistic that 1 in 5 females will get raped in their lifetime and that is such a twisted statistic that I do not know where to start.

These are some issues I chose to discuss, feel free to let me know what you think, even if you disagree with me. And let's continue keeping it civil, because this is nice in comparison to other instances where these issues are raised

About the issue of less pay. I guess your suggestion about firing all the males from the company wouldn't really fly, because this happens in a discreet way. I would like to get some more insight in this, but since I am no female it is a bit harder to understand this phenomenon. But there is probably some written material about this. All I hear about is personal stories of women getting less pay. That is why I like the video by John Oliver; finally it gets some more attention.

To make things clear: I have no doubt some males experience the same kind of offense and degradation, but I am quite sure it has the same cause for men and women alike. There are both women and men who have trouble understanding the concept of equality. It both needs to stop, but this will probably take hundreds of years.
----
And when our eyes will meet there
We will recognize nothing's wrong
IronAngel

Posts: 4393

Age: 25
From: Finland

  27.10.2014 at 10:33
For me, feminism isn't so much about forcing a change of attitudes right now as it is abolishing all official structures that support gender roles and family models so we can have the choice to live as we please. I do not begrudge anyone the choice of being/having a housewife; as long as it was freely chosen or simply the best of bad options available in practice, and not because society offers it as the only "proper" model of life.

So I could not disagree with Rasputin more: the notion that there is some essential nature of "true man" and "woman" is not only philosophically misguided but dangerous and despotic. That you are disturbed by men being who they are (i.e. less traditionally masculine) after millenia of being forced to act as the strong, rational, responsible head of the household (who likes sports, cars and beer, no less) is precisely why we need feminism - and I am happy to use that historical term, even if the ideology should target both male and female roles and their place in society equally. It may not be the most accurate term if we were to come up with one from scratch, but shying away from it now would be the kind of political correctness that undermines one's conviction.

So for me, feminism is more about awareness than action. Once you realise that old doctrines like "men and women are biologically different" are actually nonsense, you drop your old politcal attitudes and change your behaviour automatically. I hope. And that is not to say "men" and "women" don't have biological differences, but people of both sexes have all sorts of biological differences and we do not make them the basis of policy or social norms; moreover, the supposed differences are generally exaggerated and extended to things they don't actually imply at all.

That is the Cardinal Evil that feminism needs to combat, really: the notion that biological differences of sex justify rigid gender roles. They don't, really, and I dare you to find a good argument to the contrary.

In my family unit, there is certainly no head of the household, and we do not need to appeal to gender stereotypes and our essential "nature" to justify unequal practices. We are two intellectual, emotional and sexual people who arrange life according to our preferences and habits. I do some things, she does some things, but never has there been a consideration of whether the "man" or the "woman" should be responsible for some particular thing. She makes money as a PhD student, I just finished my Master's. I probably cry more. We cook together and take turns picking films to watch. We do have hobbies and preferences typical of our gender, of course - she knits, I play video games, she likes to iron clothes, I have to do all the electric and plumbing -related chores - but that's just harmless preference and what we've learned. Yes, perhaps I would really love knitting too if it was something I had been taught as a kid, but there's no point fighting against our upbringing when it's not a big deal. The point of feminism is: there's nothing wrong with preferences, be they traditional or radical; as long as you are aware of your preferences and the norms that guide your everyday life, and have the option of doing things different if you wanted to.

That is: it is OK for Rasputin to be the head of the household, if that's what he finds comfortable and that's what his wife finds comfortable. If you have discussed this as equals, recognised the weight of tradition, taken stock of your resources and analysed your preferences and concluded that this is how it should be in your family, far be it from me or any angry feminist to say it's wrong. But if you never asked your wife, if you never stopped to consider it yourself, if you're just doing this because you're "supposed" to, you are in need of emancipation through awareness. What you do with that emancipation is your business, as long as you identify your motives and realise your choices are yours and not applicable to other families.

If the woman pays in a restaurant, do you feel uncomfortable? If so, ask yourself: does this make any fucking sense? Do I have any reason to feel uncomfortable, or is it just a stupid social norm imprinted on me that we should be able to rise above by now?

Rasputin, I still do not understand why you keep referring to feminists as this mysterious "they" who are unreasonable and nasty. Sure, it's easy to demonize "them" if you only recognize as feminists those who already support your preconception. But you're talking, right now, to feminists. As far as I can tell (and forgive the presumption), Mattybu is a feminist, Twilight is a feminist, and I am a feminist. The feminist representation in this topic does not seem to fit your model very well.
Twilight
IntepridTraveler

Posts: 1168
From: The Netherlands

  27.10.2014 at 19:03
Written by IronAngel on 27.10.2014 at 10:33
As far as I can tell (and forgive the presumption), Mattybu is a feminist, Twilight is a feminist, and I am a feminist. The feminist representation in this topic does not seem to fit your model very well.

No prob. I guess I am. It's just a word.
----
And when our eyes will meet there
We will recognize nothing's wrong
Rasputin

Posts: 214
From: USA
  07.11.2014 at 08:09
"While I agree on the emotional arena which isn't really a good place for discussion, I do not entirely agree with you on the intent-part. It is quite a strange problem we have here. Intent can be good and friendly, but it might be received not as friendly. This is something that varies with every personality. So it is hard to discuss this as a general matter, but I think this is where human empathy comes in. I mean, we all have this quality, so why not use it? I agree that we shouldn't let emotion govern everything we do, but if someone takes offensive in something that I do, my first reaction is usually 'But why is that?' Just talking about these issues can already be enough in most of the cases.
Unfortunately, there are also many cases in which a degrading comment is disguised as something that can also be perceived as a positive remark. This can often be distinguished by its sarcastic or aggressive tone. For example, a comment with a sexist tone directed at a woman who is just passing by. There is almost no woman who is charmed by these kind of things, yet they keep happening. And if the target of the comment has a cold answer in return, she often gets things thrown toward her like 'Hey, I was just giving you a good comment!' or something similar. Even when the starting comment had very sexist tones.
I am not sure what you think about this, but there are many people who would say 'ah, it's just words, let it go.' Even while a lot of women are really bothered by this. I would say: If it is such a majority who experiences these things as degrading and negative, is it really so hard to just change your behavior about this a little bit? Just no sexist comments anymore, it shouldn't be that hard.

Edit: I forgot about it, but there is a term for this; 'cat calling'. I guess that's what I tried to describe here. Most people who resort to this never really seem to consider how it could be received. It's as if it's so culturally embedded that no-one seems to really think about it anymore."

I think intent must be taken into account. This is how in court we figure out if something is a murder, homicide or manslaughter for instance. Now, while I find the entire thing of intent amusing, considering that we can't ever know what someone trully thought or wanted, I think we can use the overall body posture, demeanor and everything else that comes with it. While I agree that people are bothered by it, at the same time I think that each person must get tougher, because we really are now going into a territory of things being stupid. I saw that video with a woman walking and allegedly all the man were cat calling her or whatnot, but if you are offended by "Hi, how are you" or "Hey beautiful" I can shake my head. Now, if it was "Look at that fine ass" or something like that, that is little different, but what I am saying is, that the entire argument is going out of hand, and we are hunting the things that we cannot account for, such as emotion, feeling and perception.

"understand what you mean. But I don't think I really see this as a problem. Doesn't everyone just have the right to live their life the way they want it? If a man feels more feminine than masculine, I think he has every right to wear women's clothes, or go for a sex-change. Why do you see this as a war on the Y chromosome? It might be an increasing amount of people who might like to cross-dress or whatever, but I bet more than enough men still like to wear suits. Not something you should worry about, if you ask me. "

I didn't say that they shouldn't or couldn't, I am just saying that more and more I see attacks on masculinity, while the feminization is being placed in the forefront, because we are fighting this "patriarchy" or whatever they call it. People can wear whatever they want, what I am seeing in the USA is that men are looked down upon for being men, while more women are acting like man or wearing men's clothes and haircuts. It's hypocrisy in my eyes. It goes back to the argument that I keep having with the feminists. I do not condone men going and sleeping around with every woman they meet and I do not advocate that for various reasons, but I find is that when I tell a feminist that maybe she should not be behaving like those men, and sleeping around, I am automatically attacking her sense of feminine agency and I am refusing to grant her ownership of her body. And I am not trying to do that, I am merely pointing out that two wrongs don't make a right that's it. It is interesting too see that many feminist in the USA are fighting against what men are doing, and are condeming it, but at the same time are doing it.

"I do agree with you that it goes way too far to go for an 'IT', instead of a 'he' or 'she'. Yes, there definitely are differences between the genders. It saddens me to read that these feminists you have spoken with seem to correlate equality with sameness. This is indeed not true. But in my opinion there are really numerous qualities from both genders that most of the time just mix a little bit. I think this is why some men like to wear women's clothes. But don't forget that this also happens the other way around. And what about androgyne people?

I think there is room to discuss every issue part of the bigger problem. It is sad that some women have developed this hatred towards males, but I think they must have their reasons for this. Besides, there are also many women or feminists who also look down on this, even here in Metalstorm there are female members who already told you they reject this behavior. And I bet they are far from the only ones."

Well, the thing is, they argue that men and women are the same, and then they refute their own statements by arguing that men are stronger then women and that's why women are afraid and get raped. Then in the same sentence they state that they can do everything a man can, and are strong and independent. It is a total clusterfuck if you ask me. And I am drawing this from encountering and debating with over 200-300 feminists if not more. It seems to me that most higher education schools that endorse Women Studies continue to brainwash more women into repeating the mantra over and over until they convince themselves that they are right and true. Androgyny people have their place in the world, they are who they are, but I am at the same time not advocating for all of us to start moving towards that trend, which seems to be a trend in the USA especially.

"I like that you admit here in saying you are 'old school'. I guess this is where we differ in opinion. For several years gay couples who adopted children really had not much trouble raising them, I guess that is more than enough proof they can manage. Even with a lesbian couple, where no man is involved in.
I don't believe it is in the nature of a male to be dominant, this could be much more attributed to nurture, in my opinion. And this makes sense, because that is why commercials for Action Man(tm) are targetted at boys, for example. And in contemporary society it is no longer necessary for men to go out hunting and bring food and for the women to raise the kids. That is what I like about these times, they are so incredibly dynamic."

If we look at nature, the majority is on the side of the males, while we have some alternate examples like Black Widow, Praying Mantis etc. The thing is, I see more and more on huffingtonpost, topics where the so called feminists who are fighting for equality are targeting boys and men, and are trying to draw erroneous conclusions out of nothing. I recently read an article in which they complained about cartoons, games, and toys being targeted specifically for men, and how that is discrimination, patriarchy again bla bla bla. I don't know if you are a gamer or not, but did you hear the Gamergate stuff from Sarkessian? THat is a prime example of how something gets drawn out of nothing. Check it out if you can. I am not much of a gamer, but I was pissed when I read and heard what she was arguing.

@Iron
The "true" feminists that I am talking about are all females, at least that's what I am being told. Since you are males, you can never be "true" like them. Their words, not mine.

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