I'm a Atheist because I don't believe that anyone but me can have an Impact on my future , plus 90% of all conflicts start because of Religion (or their Leaders)

anyone can have a impact on your future
but not an invisible person without any money

Atheism to me seems to be a contradiction, and I don't mean to say that because of some emotional bias against the 'non-religious' or anything. Why spend time voicing the stance of a sort of nothingness? All moral principle in which we inherently acknowledge - the way of fair and just or unfair and unjust - all meaningless really within Atheism in the path of thought holding to nothing after death and nothing of enduring significance any deeper than the physical. Yet there's a pull in us all. Emotion. Morality (regardless of how well or poorly practiced and regardless of the measure of responsibility taken up, but the mere measure of it or even rejection of it). The will. Life is but a mist, a vapor in the air. To live each day full is a good thing, but what's the actual measure of fullness if it all ends to nothing?

But I don't mean any of this against individuals of Atheism - I just mean my figuring on this principle of thought in itself

Written by Guest on 09.10.2007 at 04:44

Atheism to me seems to be a contradiction, and I don't mean to say that because of some emotional bias against the 'non-religious' or anything. Why spend time voicing the stance of a sort of nothingness? All moral principle in which we inherently acknowledge - the way of fair and just or unfair and unjust - all meaningless really within Atheism in the path of thought holding to nothing after death and nothing of enduring significance any deeper than the physical.

I, and lots of other atheists, would take exception to the idea that meaning depends on the existence of a god. And there are things that endure death - think about books, music, film, etc. Just because a person is dead, it doesn't mean that they cease to have any effect on the world.

Quote:

Quote:

Written by Hyvaarin on 09.10.2007 at 17:50

Written by Guest on 09.10.2007 at 04:44

Atheism to me seems to be a contradiction, and I don't mean to say that because of some emotional bias against the 'non-religious' or anything. Why spend time voicing the stance of a sort of nothingness? All moral principle in which we inherently acknowledge - the way of fair and just or unfair and unjust - all meaningless really within Atheism in the path of thought holding to nothing after death and nothing of enduring significance any deeper than the physical.

I, and lots of other atheists, would take exception to the idea that meaning depends on the existence of a god.

I personally never mentioned anything about the existence of a god as far as it goes with your response, but this is atheism by definition:
a·the·ism -noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

And there are things that endure death - think about books, music, film, etc. Just because a person is dead, it doesn't mean that they cease to have any effect on the world.

Well they most certainly do continue to have an effect on the world but that still gives nothing to purpose beyond this short-lived life. What measure is there to actual benefit if it only circulates inspiration that leads to nothing, only to be passed on to stir other generations who will also come to nothing in the end? We all die. In other words the effects of those things are ultimately insignificant outside of a further purpose to life at all and so therefore only would circulate contradiction by any effort put forth.

And again to make sure I'm not taken wrong - I'm not trying to just win an argument. I like to test out reasoning and it's not a thing about "I'm better than you" or anything like that.

Ive asked this in another thread with no replies so il ask it here again.
Theists ask whats the reason for an atheists existence and argue that there is no "purpose beyond this short lived life" which I agree with, there is no meaning according to my beliefs.
However my question is this: whats your reason for existence in 'heaven'?

Eternal fellowship with my Maker as I was ultimately made for. To lavish in the actual essence of love and peace at its most intense beyond the bounds of time and decay.

Written by Guest on 09.10.2007 at 19:25

Well they most certainly do continue to have an effect on the world but that still gives nothing to purpose beyond this short-lived life. What measure is there to actual benefit if it only circulates inspiration that leads to nothing, only to be passed on to stir other generations who will also come to nothing in the end? We all die. In other words the effects of those things are ultimately insignificant outside of a further purpose to life at all and so therefore only would circulate contradiction by any effort put forth.

And again to make sure I'm not taken wrong - I'm not trying to just win an argument. I like to test out reasoning and it's not a thing about "I'm better than you" or anything like that.

There are different opinions on this, obviously, but for me the purpose of life is to survive, replicate, grow and enjoy while you can. Why does there have to be a reason beyond this?

Written by Hyvaarin on 10.10.2007 at 03:13

Written by Guest on 09.10.2007 at 19:25

Well they most certainly do continue to have an effect on the world but that still gives nothing to purpose beyond this short-lived life. What measure is there to actual benefit if it only circulates inspiration that leads to nothing, only to be passed on to stir other generations who will also come to nothing in the end? We all die. In other words the effects of those things are ultimately insignificant outside of a further purpose to life at all and so therefore only would circulate contradiction by any effort put forth.

And again to make sure I'm not taken wrong - I'm not trying to just win an argument. I like to test out reasoning and it's not a thing about "I'm better than you" or anything like that.

There are different opinions on this, obviously, but for me the purpose of life is to survive, replicate, grow and enjoy while you can. Why does there have to be a reason beyond this?

Well supposing that it has any real value...otherwise any sense of right or wrong shouldn't be so significant - which is rather hard to accept when it ends in your personal expense (being murdered, stolen from, etc.) - and more especially in supposing that there is only one life.

Written by Guest on 10.10.2007 at 04:45

Written by Hyvaarin on 10.10.2007 at 03:13

Written by Guest on 09.10.2007 at 19:25

Well they most certainly do continue to have an effect on the world but that still gives nothing to purpose beyond this short-lived life. What measure is there to actual benefit if it only circulates inspiration that leads to nothing, only to be passed on to stir other generations who will also come to nothing in the end? We all die. In other words the effects of those things are ultimately insignificant outside of a further purpose to life at all and so therefore only would circulate contradiction by any effort put forth.

And again to make sure I'm not taken wrong - I'm not trying to just win an argument. I like to test out reasoning and it's not a thing about "I'm better than you" or anything like that.

There are different opinions on this, obviously, but for me the purpose of life is to survive, replicate, grow and enjoy while you can. Why does there have to be a reason beyond this?

Well supposing that it has any real value...otherwise any sense of right or wrong shouldn't be so significant - which is rather hard to accept when it ends in your personal expense (being murdered, stolen from, etc.) - and more especially in supposing that there is only one life.

Not sure I understood your post, but if you're suggesting that morality is reliant on the existence of a god, you're wrong. See John Mill's Utilitarianism. It's a well-functioning system of ethics that has absolutely no need for a deity.

Bereley get a point in religion traed
You all ateists whe you becaime an atheist? When start lsitening metal? Realy what you believe before start liatened metal?

I was never ever religious. probably because I grew up in a very secular environment. To be honest i didnt think anyone really believed in christianity until i was 13 when i moved to this country, oh boy was i wrong...

Written by Hyvaarin on 10.10.2007 at 08:42

Written by Guest on 10.10.2007 at 04:45

Written by Hyvaarin on 10.10.2007 at 03:13

Written by Guest on 09.10.2007 at 19:25

Well they most certainly do continue to have an effect on the world but that still gives nothing to purpose beyond this short-lived life. What measure is there to actual benefit if it only circulates inspiration that leads to nothing, only to be passed on to stir other generations who will also come to nothing in the end? We all die. In other words the effects of those things are ultimately insignificant outside of a further purpose to life at all and so therefore only would circulate contradiction by any effort put forth.

And again to make sure I'm not taken wrong - I'm not trying to just win an argument. I like to test out reasoning and it's not a thing about "I'm better than you" or anything like that.

There are different opinions on this, obviously, but for me the purpose of life is to survive, replicate, grow and enjoy while you can. Why does there have to be a reason beyond this?

Well supposing that it has any real value...otherwise any sense of right or wrong shouldn't be so significant - which is rather hard to accept when it ends in your personal expense (being murdered, stolen from, etc.) - and more especially in supposing that there is only one life.

Not sure I understood your post, but if you're suggesting that morality is reliant on the existence of a god, you're wrong. See John Mill's Utilitarianism. It's a well-functioning system of ethics that has absolutely no need for a deity.

But why waist time bothering about morals if there's no absolute weight about them - and I want your words, not just a reference. For instance, if I gain pleasure by sadism or masochism and so does the participant to the point of death, what would make it wrong? Apart from morals the fact of free will opens nearly any fatally accidental possibilities and then you have a thing of rightfully explaining responsibility from whatever angle. Again, I never mentioned deity or God in any of this to be specific, aside from a different post about a 'Heaven.' From one generation to another to another - for nothing. What use is 'benefit' if it all amounts to a personal loss, merely passing down to another generation once your life is forever lost and not truly significant beyond a vague staging of ritualistic principles for the maintenance of an environment that will only die and die and die for fleeting pleasure or the illusion of stability. Again, not just trying to be a jerk man. I do respect you and I'm not making attacks.

^ "Why waste time bothering about morals if theres no absolute weight about them?"
This is exactly the kind of attitude that blows my mind with many christians. Are you only being "moral" because you are expecting a reward for it?
As far as I´m concerned you can do whatever you like as long it does not infringe the rights of others, and if it does, well thats why we have legislation and law enforcement.

Written by Guest on 10.10.2007 at 16:03

But why waist time bothering about morals if there's no absolute weight about them - and I want your words, not just a reference. For instance, if I gain pleasure by sadism or masochism and so does the participant to the point of death, what would make it wrong? Apart from morals the fact of free will opens nearly any fatally accidental possibilities and then you have a thing of rightfully explaining responsibility from whatever angle. Again, I never mentioned deity or God in any of this to be specific, aside from a different post about a 'Heaven.' From one generation to another to another - for nothing. What use is 'benefit' if it all amounts to a personal loss, merely passing down to another generation once your life is forever lost and not truly significant beyond a vague staging of ritualistic principles for the maintenance of an environment that will only die and die and die for fleeting pleasure or the illusion of stability. Again, not just trying to be a jerk man. I do respect you and I'm not making attacks.

No worries mate, I get that you're just trying to spark discussion. I applaud you for it.

Well...I dunno, to be honest, I wouldn't say that "sado-masochism to the point of death" is wrong, provided that the people involved were in sound mental health and were actually enjoying it. This is basically what Utilitarianism is about - maximizing pleasure and minimising harm, with a firm belief that the only ethical reason to infringe upon the liberties of someone is to prevent their harming someone else.

Now, the generation-to-generation thing...I haven't really been able to think this through too well, but the way I see it, there are two options. Firstly, and most basically, there is nothing. Outside of personal fulfillment (which, mind you, is a pretty goddamn significant thing) there is no 'benefit' to doing things.

Alternatively, we do stuff to continue the process of evolution.

And so still - accidents and cruelty. What do you make of it? Or a person who only gains pleasure from cruelty.

Written by Too many fail. on 10.10.2007 at 16:41

As far as I´m concerned you can do whatever you like as long it does not infringe the rights of others, and if it does, well thats why we have legislation and law enforcement.

Why must it not infringe upon the 'rights' of others? Life is just about rules? What if my will ignores their rights? If I commit suicide just now, life will continue so surely my life held little value? Seems very superficial to me

Written by Guest on 10.10.2007 at 17:28

And so still - accidents and cruelty. What do you make of it? Or a person who only gains pleasure from cruelty.

A person gaining pleasure only from cruelty can garn get fucked, because their pleasure necessitates the harm of others. It's been a few months since I've read Utilitarianism, but I'm preeeety sure that this is what it would argue.

Written by Guest on 10.10.2007 at 17:30

Written by Too many fail. on 10.10.2007 at 16:41

As far as I´m concerned you can do whatever you like as long it does not infringe the rights of others, and if it does, well thats why we have legislation and law enforcement.

Why must it not infringe upon the 'rights' of others?

I think that's pretty obvious. Almost every ethical system in the world ever says that you should not infringe unnecessarily on the rights of others.

Quote:
If I commit suicide just now, life will continue so surely my life held little value? Seems very superficial to me

Yes, your life would have held little value. It is a cold world.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Why must it not infringe upon the 'rights' of others?

I think that's pretty obvious. Almost every ethical system in the world ever says that you should not infringe unnecessarily on the rights of others.

^Yes but why? And so if a majority seems to agree then it's automatically correct? Or do you just leave the 'obvious' never to be tested?

Quote:
If I commit suicide just now, life will continue so surely my life held little value? Seems very superficial to me

Yes, your life would have held little value. It is a cold world.

So then there's no problem REALLY with killing someone right - if life holds little value? As long as it's not a massive number. People will get over it. Everyone makes mistakes. 'Accidents' happen.

Written by Guest on 10.10.2007 at 17:30

Written by Too many fail. on 10.10.2007 at 16:41

As far as I´m concerned you can do whatever you like as long it does not infringe the rights of others, and if it does, well thats why we have legislation and law enforcement.

Why must it not infringe upon the 'rights' of others? Life is just about rules? What if my will ignores their rights? If I commit suicide just now, life will continue so surely my life held little value? Seems very superficial to me

My life view has pretty much one rule, don't infringe on the rights of others, that leaves a lot of room for my life to be about much more than just rules. unlike many religious people who have to follow ancient scripture. What if your will ignores others rights ? then youll be put away, it's your choice. I would imagine it to be much more liberating for everyone if they only had to follow that one rule, after all it is pretty much an integral part of most abrahaic religions anyways (namely don't harm others) all you have to add is "mind your own business", and there you go. No sunday church, fasting, or devoting your life to something that you can't prove to exist. And how is it superficial to think life goes one if you kill yourself? people die everyday in thousands and yes life does go on. If anything it's superficial to place some special status on ones self and think you have some major impact on the world by just existing. Go help people in need for the rest of your life and maybe you can realistically think that your life made a "difference" though only temporarily.

Curious - do you think helping people is useless?

We infringe on people's claimed rights every day (sometimes unknowingly) - I'd say that's why everyone's always pissed at each other, because they think the world owes them something. I agree that it's superficial to place a special status on yourself. Sorrow, pity and emotion or caring at all seems empty and useless when we all die if we have no purpose except to live, reproduce, scramble to indulge ourselves and pass on what useless things we've gained - or not pass them on - who knows what will become of them.

Don't think this was answered earlier (unless I missed it - not being a smart aleck, not meant rudely): Why does one spend time and effort in defense of Atheistic belief if there is an inevitable end, no meaning or purpose beyond this short life, unchanged by anything like religion or spirituality?

Again, I don't mean any of this as a personal attack. Just testing reason. Looking forward to getting to know you guys too.

No I don't think helping people is useless, what gave you that idea? the last line of the other post was supposed to PROMOTE helping if anything.

Just to make this clear, I don't care what you believe in or what you tor anyone else thinks of my belifs, so im not "defending" atheism in that sense, I don't take it personally if someone disagrees or talks bs. why should I. And im not crusading here to change peoples opinions if thats what youre thinking. that being said, im not here fighting for a cause, mereley conversing as I'm interested to hear about peoples bveliefs which quite honestly blow my mind rather often as many have adopted concepts as afterlife and divinity as fact, and do not only believe in them but devote their lives and advocate them to others.

Some of the questions I was asking were totally separate - just exploring - not pre-supposition.

I would think that the fact that you're responding to share what you think (which respectfully seems to be an Atheistic view) and the manner in how you've responded in contrast to my non-Atheistic belief would indicate a sort of defense, naturally. Anyways nothing is being forced here - of course no person can force any way of thought on another. The attempt to is futile and manipulative and I'm tired of seeing it happen. I'm glad to be on this forum and it's cool talking to all you guys/girls.

Veneror: Your opinion of atheism sounds more like nihilism or something to me. You dont need to believe in a creator/soul/whatever to just be a decent human being. Society programs you a certain way and since a good portion of todays cultures are based upon Abrahamic values its going to carry onto the fiber of a majority of people subconsciously, god fearing or not.

Written by Zombie, M.D. on 11.10.2007 at 03:04

Veneror: Your opinion of atheism sounds more like nihilism or something to me. You dont need to believe in a creator/soul/whatever to just be a decent human being. Society programs you a certain way and since a good portion of todays cultures are based upon Abrahamic values its going to carry onto the fiber of a majority of people subconsciously, god fearing or not.

Just testing the structure, asking questions and playing a little devil's advocate. And I'm not a nihilist.

I didnt mean you were nihilistic, I meant it sounded like you were confusing athiests with nihilists.

Ah ok. No, just thinking 'if...then...' and trying to press the question further and further

I'll reply to this (by editing this post) in 4 hours.

edit - sorry about the lack of reply, but I had to rush out after work and now have assignments to do haha. Later.

Written by Guest on 10.10.2007 at 01:40

Eternal fellowship with my Maker as I was ultimately made for. To lavish in the actual essence of love and peace at its most intense beyond the bounds of time and decay.

Like you, I don't want to create angry arguments or anything similar.

But you said that you would like to be in paradise to lavish in eternal love and peace(which I think is good). Then couldn't this desire be classified as striving for pleasure(or however you want to call it, because love and peace cause it in this case) and if so isn't your goal the same or at least similar to one of atheist's who tries to enjoy this life? In my opinion, the difference that in heaven the enjoyment is eternal isn't a significant one, because if you do not believe in afterlife, then having enjoyed whole life, even if it was a short one is eternity for you, because you don't exist beyond it.

Hope the text wasn't too messy because mine tend to be so sometimes(on what I should improve ) Also I made the post on purpose maybe a little bit provocative in some parts to stir some discussion.