So, rating albums based solely on how much you like that particular album isn't the right way to vote, then? I'd better go delete my ratings, then, since I'm probably not informed enough to vote correctly.

Written by mde017 on 02.11.2023 at 17:52
I am a proponent of informed and educated ratings.

All of that sounds very reasonable, but you also said things like ...

“crap mickey mouse list ... the most clichéd, mainstream albums ... manipulation of ratings by posers ... crap rankings which this site puts forward”

... and that's what someone who's stuck in the past and who has no tolerance towards people with a different musical taste would say.


No offence, but I believe you take your own taste in music way too seriously.

Just to give one example... You've mentioned Dying Fetus quite often and it seems to bother you a lot that the "MS posers" are polluting one of your favorite bands' discography with ratings that are way too low. You also mentioned RYM a few times because the ratings are fairer there.
But has it ever occurred to you to actually compare the ratings on both sites? Then you would have noticed that the user score of Make Them Beg For Death is a great deal lower on RYM (3.63/5 = 72.6%) than on MS (80%).
By the way, this applies to all Dying Fetus albums. The current MS average is 8.07/10, while it's only a meager 6.99/10 on RYM. There's more than one complete point between "better than very good" and "slightly worse than good", so that's a huge difference. There's no denying that the MS crowd seems to like Dying Fetus much more than the average RYM user does, which renders quite a few of your arguments null and void.

Sure, you're basically right. It is annoying to see that the Top 20 encourages rating abuse.
Nevertheless, I believe that you are a victim of your own wishful thinking, that you tend to exaggerate and that you're drawing the wrong conclusions. Furthermore, you haven't made any suggestions for improvements that could actually be implemented. I'm sorry to say that, but your idea of only publishing the current (!) Top 20 in two or three years is downright absurd.

Written by mde017 on 19.10.2023 at 21:37
[...] similar biases are on rym but because there are more people there and there is no top 20 list published there is less of abuse. Here the ranking is seriously broken.

So there's no metal Top 20 on RYM? Are you really sure about that?
Also, it's no big secret that RYM has always had issues with manipulated ratings, and I dare say their problem is a bigger problem than ours. Search the web with the keywords "Fantano effect RYM" and you'll know what I mean. I've never noticed a comparable effect here, which suggests that the typical followers of popular YouTube channels like The Needle Drop and the 4chan/mu and Reddit user groups simply don't give a shit about our little Metal Storm universe. I'd say that's a damn good thing.

Written by mde017 on 23.10.2023 at 09:48
However, the rating system on this site is significantly skewed, and the top 20 list appears to be rather irrelevant, mainly driven by popular bands from very specific subgenres.

If you really believe that the Top 20 should be the place to reveal hidden gems matching your personal niche taste, you haven't understood it's basic principle. This cannot work and it has never worked, neither here nor anywhere else. It's in the nature of things that the Top 20 contains albums that the average user can relate to and i's only logical that the more extreme varieties of metal don't automatically suit all users' tastes. I always thought that was clear to everyone.
Ironically, the current Top 10 consists exclusively of albums that have more to do with death, black and extreme metal than with any other genre, so I don't even know what you're trying to say. If you were a die-hard power metal fan, I could understand your displeasure, but...

Frankly speaking, I don't think that rating abuse is a general problem for you at all. The only thing that really seems to bother you is that your favorite bands and your favorite genres are occasionally affected. This may not be what you want to hear, but that's the exact mentality our moderators have to deal with every day and you can only free yourself from this mindset if you accept the Top 20 for what it is instead of being annoyed that it doesn't reflect your personal taste.

Excuse me for being so blunt and sorry for the harsh words, but if you consider yourself an expert among a bunch of posers, you have to be able to take it.

Written by Starvynth on 03.11.2023 at 00:15

No offence, but I believe you take your own taste in music way too seriously.

No offence taken, your believes are your believes and that's it.

Written by Starvynth on 03.11.2023 at 00:15

Nevertheless, I believe that you are a victim of your own wishful thinking, that you tend to exaggerate and that you're drawing the wrong conclusions. Furthermore, you haven't made any suggestions for improvements that could actually be implemented. I'm sorry to say that, but your idea of only publishing the current (!) Top 20 in two or three years is downright absurd.

I made a couple of suggestions, and you've chosen to emphasize the most extreme one and call it absurd. That's your prerogative, but I must admit, this time I'm on the verge of taking offense, as this appears to be a form of manipulation. I also suggested the idea of delaying the addition of albums to the top 20 by a couple of months, which seems to have been conveniently overlooked. Me personally I dont like top 20 concept and possibiltiy of voting out albums from it. I see this as one of the culprits for abuse

Written by Starvynth on 03.11.2023 at 00:15

So there's no metal Top 20 on RYM? Are you really sure about that?
Also, it's no big secret that RYM has always had issues with manipulated ratings, and I dare say their problem is a bigger problem than ours. Search the web with the keywords "Fantano effect RYM" and you'll know what I mean.

There is no official metal Top 20 on RYM; what you have linked is a user-generated chart. I must say I appreciate the functionality of user-generated charts on RYM. This site also has a similar feature, albeit more straightforward, allowing you to slice and dice albums in the Bands/Albums section. This is entirely different from publishing Top 20 lists and initiating a competitive ranking.

Written by Starvynth on 03.11.2023 at 00:15

If you really believe that the Top 20 should be the place to reveal hidden gems matching your personal niche taste, you haven't understood it's basic principle.

No, I don't think the top 20 should serve that purpose. I truly don't care about the top 20. It appears that either my points aren't coming across clearly, or perhaps you're not reading thoroughly.

Written by Starvynth on 03.11.2023 at 00:15

Excuse me for being so blunt and sorry for the harsh words, but if you consider yourself an expert among a bunch of posers, you have to be able to take it.

Be my guest, hope you have as much fun as I am having. It's an amusing thought – an expert navigating through a sea of posers. But no, I'm not quite that delusional. I am sure that there are people contributing on this site who forgot about music more than I know.

Written by mde017 on 03.11.2023 at 08:09

There is no official metal Top 20 on RYM; what you have linked is a user-generated chart. I must say I appreciate the functionality of user-generated charts on RYM. This site also has a similar feature, albeit more straightforward, allowing you to slice and dice albums in the Bands/Albums section. This is entirely different from publishing Top 20 lists and initiating a competitive ranking.

Please do tell which user made that list because I don't see any specific user connected to it. That list is generated from the average score from user ratings and you can choose by year and genre too, just like you can do here on MS.

And for someone who claims to not care for our (or any) top 20 list(s) you seem to have a pretty strong opinion about it.

Written by Starvynth on 03.11.2023 at 00:15

Just to give one example... You've mentioned Dying Fetus quite often and it seems to bother you a lot that the "MS posers" are polluting one of your favorite bands' discography with ratings that are way too low. You also mentioned RYM a few times because the ratings are fairer there.
But has it ever occurred to you to actually compare the ratings on both sites? Then you would have noticed that the user score of Make Them Beg For Death is a great deal lower on RYM (3.63/5 = 72.6%) than on MS (80%).
By the way, this applies to all Dying Fetus albums. The current MS average is 8.07/10, while it's only a meager 6.99/10 on RYM. There's more than one complete point between "better than very good" and "slightly worse than good", so that's a huge difference. There's no denying that the MS crowd seems to like Dying Fetus much more than the average RYM user does, which renders quite a few of your arguments null and void.

Slight nitpick right there, the average ratings on RYM are very different than on MS. I'd say an album rated at about 3.4 or 3.5/5 on RYM is the same as an album being rated 8 on MS, which would anyway mean that the average enjoyment for Dying Fetus is about the same on both websites .
The best rated album on RYM currently sits at 4.36/5 to give you an idea, it would barely be in the top 200 on MS.

Written by Nejde on 03.11.2023 at 11:23

Please do tell which user made that list because I don't see any specific user connected to it. That list is generated from the average score from user ratings and you can choose by year and genre too, just like you can do here on MS.

This is what I said MS has a similar feature, albeit more straightforward, allowing you to slice and dice albums in the Bands/Albums section. I like that feature on both sides you can do your own list at your convenience top metal, top death metal, top sludge metal and doom metal out of France. That is not a top 20 ranking.

Written by Nejde on 03.11.2023 at 11:23

And for someone who claims to not care for our (or any) top 20 list(s) you seem to have a pretty strong opinion about it.

I have strong opinion regarding rating abuse, and I specifically attribute a significant portion of it to the top 20 list. It might seem like a minor distinction, but it's an important one. I don't care about top 20 list but ratings are important to me and I see them useful if correctly constracted which I already covered so...

Okay, it appears that my views on the top 20 list as driver of rating abuse have struck a nerve with some of you. Many have attempted to engage in discussion, which is perfectly acceptable. However, as some of our conversations increasingly drift towards constructing strawman arguments or personal attacks, the conversation becomes childish and unproductive. I will cease responding to strawmen and attacks and reserve my right to engage in discussions related to the actual issue if valid arguments are presented.

Written by Roman Doez on 03.11.2023 at 11:40

I'd say an album rated at about 3.4 or 3.5/5 on RYM is the same as an album being rated 8 on MS, which would anyway mean that the average enjoyment for Dying Fetus is about the same on both websites .
The best rated album on RYM currently sits at 4.36/5 to give you an idea, it would barely be in the top 200 on MS.

It's not a matter of whether Dying Fetus receives a low or high average scores – that aspect doesn't concern me.

My example involving Dying Fetus was intended to illustrate the extent to which top 20 rankings on MS can distort scores, particularly for newer albums. If you were to examine RYM, you would notice that their latest album receives highly favorable ratings and holds the third-highest position in their discography. However, here on this site, it's placed in the lower half of the discography and successfully ranked outside of the top 20 list, rating slightly below 8.

Now, I contend that objectively, their latest album is among their very best. The fact that it's rated lower than the previous one raises questions about the validity of such ratings. A plausible explanation could be that previous album 8.1 rating wasn't high enough to secure a spot in the top 20 list, and as a result sea of posers I have to deal with here didnt bother to downrank it so much. I am open for other explanations obviously.

Written by mde017 on 03.11.2023 at 13:18


My example involving Dying Fetus was intended to illustrate the extent to which top 20 rankings on MS can distort scores, particularly for newer albums. If you were to examine RYM, you would notice that their latest album receives highly favorable ratings and holds the third-highest position in their discography. However, here on this site, it's placed in the lower half of the discography and successfully ranked outside of the top 20 list, rating slightly below 8.

A pretty simple explanation could be that different types of people use RYM and MS, and so they'll naturally rate albums differently.

Another thing to keep in mind about everything your saying though is that the top 20 list is really not that important an aspect to most MS users. There is no award at the end of the year for #1, the list doesn't freeze at the end of the year and previous years lists are in constant flux. They're useful for discovering popular albums from a given year, but that's about it.

Instead there's genre specific awards given out each year using a votes system completely divorced from the ratings, which is harder (albeit I won't say impossible) to abuse, and I think most regular users of MS hold those in much higher regard than chart position.

Written by mde017 on 03.11.2023 at 13:18

It's not a matter of whether Dying Fetus receives a low or high average scores – that aspect doesn't concern me.

My example involving Dying Fetus was intended to illustrate the extent to which top 20 rankings on MS can distort scores, particularly for newer albums. If you were to examine RYM, you would notice that their latest album receives highly favorable ratings and holds the third-highest position in their discography. However, here on this site, it's placed in the lower half of the discography and successfully ranked outside of the top 20 list, rating slightly below 8.

Now, I contend that objectively, their latest album is among their very best. The fact that it's rated lower than the previous one raises questions about the validity of such ratings. A plausible explanation could be that previous album 8.1 rating wasn't high enough to secure a spot in the top 20 list, and as a result sea of posers I have to deal with here didnt bother to downrank it so much. I am open for other explanations obviously.

It seems to concern you very much. And stop calling other users posers just because they don't like Dying Fetus as much as you do. Just because you like Make Them Beg For Death better doesn't make the validity of the ratings questionable. Make Them Beg For Death has 167 votes and Wrong One To Fuck With has 229 votes which make their ratings statistically more correct than an album that has 5, 10 or 20 votes.

And I like my share of brutal death but I think Dying Fetus is boring as hell. Complaining that Make Them Beg For Death has a lower score than Wrong One To Fuck With is just ridiculous when the difference is 0.1 point. And just to back up my arguments, I listened to both albums back to back and I can't say I like anyone of them particularly much but Wrong One To Fuck With is at least better than Make Them Beg For Death, and it has much better production imo. Still I wouldn't rate any of them higher than 6. If I want to listen to high quality brutal death I will always choose Nile.

And this whole discussion made me look into the ratings of Make Them Beg For Death and hey, what do you know, I found some rating abuse which led to three users having their ratings deleted. So there's three 10s less for Dying Fetus (together with many other bands). Luckily for you the difference wasn't big enough to drop the rating from 8 to 7.9 because of some borderline abuse I left untouched. Also, many of the 10s for Make Them Beg For Death are from users who has rated only this Dying Fetus album but no other, which to me seems quite suspicious and certainly can be considered rate boosting as an attemp to get the album into the top 20.

Written by Nejde on 03.11.2023 at 14:57


And stop calling other users posers just because they don't like Dying Fetus as much as you do.

Tell me the user I have called poser? Are you feeling called poser by me?

You seem pretty aggressive for a community manager but you removed three tens from Dying Fetus rankigs so all good now. Issue is clearly fixed.

Written by Sir Yupp on 03.11.2023 at 14:53


A pretty simple explanation could be that different types of people use RYM and MS, and so they'll naturally rate albums differently.

Another thing to keep in mind about everything your saying though is that the top 20 list is really not that important an aspect to most MS users. There is no award at the end of the year for #1, the list doesn't freeze at the end of the year and previous years lists are in constant flux. They're useful for discovering popular albums from a given year, but that's about it.

Instead there's genre specific awards given out each year using a votes system completely divorced from the ratings, which is harder (albeit I won't say impossible) to abuse, and I think most regular users of MS hold those in much higher regard than chart position.

These are reasonable arguments however, I remain unconvinced because I've noticed similar behaviors in multiple instances, where albums are promptly downranked once they reach the top 20 and end up with discography ratings clearly favorable to their back catalogue against my judgement.
I intend to discontinue this topic, as I've conveyed my perspective and it remains unchanged. I've realized that instead of encouraging improvements to the site, my comments have incited a defense of the status quo.
This was never my intention, so it's time to acknowledge that my attempt to initiate change has not been successful.

Glad we can get back to using this thread as a way to stop people from using alternative means to try and get overall ratings on the site to better align with their personal, subjective opinions.

Here's one for you to check Nejde https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=219669&r_order=year

Maybe borderline, but there's a pretty clear double bell on several years of "albums I like" and "albums close on the charts to the albums I like"
Thanks for all you do

Written by mde017 on 03.11.2023 at 15:19

Written by Nejde on 03.11.2023 at 14:57


And stop calling other users posers just because they don't like Dying Fetus as much as you do.

Tell me the user I have called poser? Are you feeling called poser by me?

You seem pretty aggressive for a community manager but you removed three tens from Dying Fetus rankigs so all good now. Issue is clearly fixed.

No one specifically but referring to users who have rated albums to your disliking as "a sea of posers I have to deal with here" is clearly calling others posers, is it not?

And the only one coming on as aggressive is you because you clearly can't accept people disagreeing with you.

Written by Sir Yupp on 03.11.2023 at 16:09

Glad we can get back to using this thread as a way to stop people from using alternative means to try and get overall ratings on the site to better align with their personal, subjective opinions.

Here's one for you to check Nejde https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=219669&r_order=year

Maybe borderline, but there's a pretty clear double bell on several years of "albums I like" and "albums close on the charts to the albums I like"
Thanks for all you do

I've taken a look but I can't see a clear pattern that indicates rating abuse. The user have used most of the rating scale and there's neither tanking or boosting of albums/discographies nor excessive use of 10s.

Written by Nejde on 03.11.2023 at 17:46


No one specifically but referring to users who have rated albums to your disliking as "a sea of posers I have to deal with here" is clearly calling others posers, but in general terms, is it not?

And the only one coming on as aggressive is you because you clearly can't accept people disagreeing with you.

"So, you cannot trace me calling anyone a poser, yet you are making bold statements and allowing yourself to discipline me, heh? You're referencing a quote about a sea of posers, which is a joke and a reference to my other post where I admitted to one of the other users that, despite it being an amusing thought, I completely don't perceive this as reality.

I'm sorry, but I am not impressed with your community management.

I fully accept people disagreeing with me. For instance, I fully accept your perception of Dying Fetus. I disagree with it completely, as I believe they are great, maybe not as great as Nile, but still great. I have no problem with your view, zero. I am open to disagreements as long as they are educated and come from someone who has made an effort to listen to the music and is at least remotely interested in it. If you take the time to read what I'm against and what I call a "poser," I think you will find that I describe behaviors that you are also trying to eliminate.

I have a strong aversion to making assumptions about others' intentions, but since you've made several assumptions about me, I'll reciprocate once. It seems to me that you may have observed me criticizing the top 20 list, and since you evidently believe that the current system is effective, taking pride in your role in managing ratings, you've taken this critique personally. Consequently, you now seem to be pursuing me, constructing strawman arguments, and attempting to control my actions because it may be more convenient for criticism of your system to come from a 'villainous' figure.

As I mentioned earlier to Sir Yupp, you can rest assured that I'm giving up – you've prevailed. The top 20 is excellent, and the ratings are superb, clearly superior to those on RYM.

Written by Nejde on 03.11.2023 at 17:49


I've taken a look but I can't see a clear pattern that indicates rating abuse. The user have used most of the rating scale and there's neither tanking or boosting of albums/discographies nor excessive use of 10s.

It was specifically their ratings in years like 2015 (where the #2 album got a 10 and #1 and #3 both got 4s), and similar otherwise highly rated albums consistently getting 4s and 5s that made me think there might be some chart abuse going on, maybe they just have very specific tastes though.

Written by Sir Yupp on 03.11.2023 at 19:46

It was specifically their ratings in years like 2015 (where the #2 album got a 10 and #1 and #3 both got 4s), and similar otherwise highly rated albums consistently getting 4s and 5s that made me think there might be some chart abuse going on, maybe they just have very specific tastes though.

If that's the case it's such a minor violation and it doesn't really affect the overall ratings of the albums. And when dealing with rating abuse I can't go after every minor violation of the rules. It takes enough time dealing with those who spam 10s like there's no tomorrow.

Written by mde017 on 03.11.2023 at 18:16

"So, you cannot trace me calling anyone a poser, yet you are making bold statements and allowing yourself to discipline me, heh? You're referencing a quote about a sea of posers, which is a joke and a reference to my other post where I admitted to one of the other users that, despite it being an amusing thought, I completely don't perceive this as reality.

I'm sorry, but I am not impressed with your community management.

I fully accept people disagreeing with me. For instance, I fully accept your perception of Dying Fetus. I disagree with it completely, as I believe they are great, maybe not as great as Nile, but still great. I have no problem with your view, zero. I am open to disagreements as long as they are educated and come from someone who has made an effort to listen to the music and is at least remotely interested in it. If you take the time to read what I'm against and what I call a "poser," I think you will find that I describe behaviors that you are also trying to eliminate.

I have a strong aversion to making assumptions about others' intentions, but since you've made several assumptions about me, I'll reciprocate once. It seems to me that you may have observed me criticizing the top 20 list, and since you evidently believe that the current system is effective, taking pride in your role in managing ratings, you've taken this critique personally. Consequently, you now seem to be pursuing me, constructing strawman arguments, and attempting to control my actions because it may be more convenient for criticism of your system to come from a 'villainous' figure.

You also mentioned "manipulations of ratings by posers". Was that also a "joke"? Because no one is laughing. I'm starting to wonder if you even know what being a poser means. The reason is that what you're complaining about, the downvoting of albums, is the opposite of being a poser. And your attempts of sounding intellectual by using big words when being confronted with any of your previous comments is just perceived as incoherent word pooping.

And if you're impressed by my community management or not is totally irrelevant to me. I was a regular user just like you before I got promoted to community manager by my fellow staffers. What I do most here on MS is dealing with rating abuse since we have quite a well behaved community otherwise. So don't think that I don't handle rating abuse that's affecting the top 20, because I do. And I'll let you know that there's way more rate boosting than tanking so I'm deleting plenty more 10s than 1s and I also both warn users and remove their permission to rate. In other words, you creating an account just to go on like bulldozer in this thread, "attempting to initiate change" doesn't change anything of what I do here. That antagonistic attitude of yours from the get go, disrespecting other users, saying they have no business rating the music YOU like and all the other bullshit you've been spouting doesn't help your cause AT ALL.
What's helping is doing what Sir Yupp did. Link a user you've come across with what might be questionable ratings or rating behaviour and I'll look into it and deal with it if necessary. Other than that I think it's time for you to chill because you're getting nowhere with your arguments and you're actually starting to irritate me.

This took quite the turn...

Written by Nejde on 03.11.2023 at 21:03

you're actually starting to irritate me.

We have a beautiful case when sentiment is mutual. Isn't it nice?

Written by Karlabos on 03.11.2023 at 21:39

This took quite the turn...

I think I got my entertainment popcorn on weekends. Will go through it.

You guys really philosophize and analyze just for what called " voting abuse" ?

Wtf, if you fav albums are down point by votings with other users, you are upset with that ? Stuped as fuk.

Guys put your thought ổn finding job, getting mariage, having kids, etc...

Written by Best Metalhead on 04.11.2023 at 16:28

Guys put your thought ổn finding job, getting mariage, having kids, etc...

The title of the thread is "Rating Abuse". It's not "Job Opportunities", "Find A Husband/Wife", or "Having Kids". By the way, no one forced you to read it, and also you have no authority whatsoever to tell people what they should talk about.

Written by nikarg on 04.11.2023 at 16:56

Written by Best Metalhead on 04.11.2023 at 16:28

Guys put your thought ổn finding job, getting mariage, having kids, etc...

The title of the thread is "Rating Abuse". It's not "Job Opportunities", "Find A Husband/Wife", or "Having Kids". By the way, no one forced you to read it, and also you have no authority whatsoever to tell people what they should talk about.

He's the self-proclaimed God of Metalstorm, how dare you tell him what to do!

Written by JoHn Doe on 04.11.2023 at 17:19

He's the self-proclaimed God of Metalstorm, how dare you tell him what to do!

Maybe that is just a prayer, let's see what kind of god it is - malevolent of benevolent. If nikarg is succesful I will have a prayer of mine.

Written by mde017 on 04.11.2023 at 17:36

Written by JoHn Doe on 04.11.2023 at 17:19

He's the self-proclaimed God of Metalstorm, how dare you tell him what to do!

Maybe that is just a prayer, let's see what kind of god it is - malevolent of benevolent. If nikarg is succesful I will have a prayer of mine.

I was obviously joking.

Written by JoHn Doe on 04.11.2023 at 17:40

Written by mde017 on 04.11.2023 at 17:36

Written by JoHn Doe on 04.11.2023 at 17:19

He's the self-proclaimed God of Metalstorm, how dare you tell him what to do!

Maybe that is just a prayer, let's see what kind of god it is - malevolent of benevolent. If nikarg is succesful I will have a prayer of mine.

I was obviously joking.

Obviously, me too by the way

I like this mde guy, I hope he sticks around.

The point that the existence and high visibility of a top 20 on the site leading to rating abuse is 100% correct. I haven't seen a really good counter argument to this

Written by Ball Fondlers on 04.11.2023 at 19:28

I like this mde guy, I hope he sticks around.

The point that the existence and high visibility of a top 20 on the site leading to rating abuse is 100% correct. I haven't seen a really good counter argument to this

Qft.

His counter is logically strong.

Written by Ball Fondlers on 04.11.2023 at 19:28

The point that the existence and high visibility of a top 20 on the site leading to rating abuse is 100% correct. I haven't seen a really good counter argument to this

It's not 100% correct because rating abuse is not only related to the top 20 lists. There are users who boost all bands they like with 10s no matter how obscure they are and tank bands they dislike with 1s.