Most of the time, it's just kids making their own baby steps in the genre. Give them time to develop their ear and to assume their taste and it eventually wears off. Thing is, since Metal attracts a lot of kids lacking self esteem it's seems like its a never ending thing.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 13.11.2012 at 06:35
Thing is, since Metal attracts a lot of kids lacking self esteem it's seems like its a never ending thing.

I think it's more to do with immaturity than it has to do with lacking self esteem. I lack self-esteem, and I'm about as opposite from an elitist as you can possibly get. I can't stand elitism. A lot of kids and newbies to metal are like that, but also older metalheads who had that attitude when they were younger and did not grow out of it. I think to some degree, it does have to do with self esteem issues, as elitism almost always comes across to me as trying to be accepted and respected. Ironically, they are as guilty of the "group think" mentality as most of the people they attack and claim to have such a problem with. It's not really anything to do with self-esteem. It's just people who have huge egos that are also too immature to recognise that other genres of music may have merit even if they themselves don't like them.

Written by Marcus on 11.11.2012 at 23:10

Written by Dinruth on 11.11.2012 at 22:53

dude I never said anything against people who like underground stuff .. or support artists who are not so well known .. fuck I just spent 30 bucks on Persefone's Core album, because after three months of looking for it I finally found a copy .. I was simply speaking about people who bitch about how shit this or that is, because many people like it

I was just referring to people who like music only because it's underground, the people who say "I liked ____ before it was cool"

Oh I totally misunderstood that .. my bad

100% agree with OP

Written by Edmund Fogg on 13.11.2012 at 06:35

Most of the time, it's just kids making their own baby steps in the genre. Give them time to develop their ear and to assume their taste and it eventually wears off. Thing is, since Metal attracts a lot of kids lacking self esteem it's seems like its a never ending thing.

Heh. I guess the whole self esteem thing works in different ways. See I have no self esteem, but just don't give a shit. I've stopped caring what most people think (people I care about excluded) and like what I want to. I wonder if I had've discovered metal when I was 13 or 14 would I be an elitist?

Haha! I knew i'd get slam with the self-esteem thing. It's just for lack of a better word. English is not my first language and some missteps like that are bound to happen. I guess I was trying to say most of the elitist I've met were not confident in their musical taste so they bashed others to feel superior. They lack the ?confidence? to simply not give a fuck.

Written by Angelic Storm on 13.11.2012 at 06:57

I think it's more to do with immaturity than it has to do with lacking self esteem.

That's what I meant by kids. Kids can be of any age really.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 13.11.2012 at 16:50

Written by Angelic Storm on 13.11.2012 at 06:57

I think it's more to do with immaturity than it has to do with lacking self esteem.

That's what I meant by kids. Kids can be of any age really.

I understand what you mean Grown up kids are everywhere haha.

I'm not so sure about all this, I don't associate that kind of mentality with elitism really. While it's definitely close minded it seems to me be more of an over zealous loyalty or something along those lines.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 13.11.2012 at 16:49

I guess I was trying to say most of the elitist I've met were not confident in their musical taste so they bashed others to feel superior. They lack the ?confidence? to simply not give a fuck.

That doesn't seem like elitism at all to me, being an "elitist" to me is being very confident about what you like and working hard to let everyone else know that if you're not liking the same then you are "lesser" in some way.

@whatsacow: Also I think you leave out an important element, simply one's appreciation of music. For all of us it's different, some may find that once they've found that sound they really like they don't want to leave it. Some of them may even be aware that what they are doing may be called "close minded" by others, in fact they are probably well aware of it.
Then there are those who, either aware of this or not, go out of their way to make baseless criticisms of other genres. And on the most extreme level you have those who totally reject everything outside the music they listen to and criticise anything else they may hear. Rather than saying this is a popular ideal I would guess that metalheads of that mentality would be of a minority.
That's generally speaking, but when you refer to specific examples such as metalcore or pop (as they understand it) it becomes much more pronounced. I mean not every genre outside of the metal these "closeminded" bunch listen to is actively criticised or even acknowledged.

So does it really matter, beyond their own musical narrow mindedness, if they ignore genres? It's only when they make stupid collective mentalities that target particular genres like metalcore that makes it a problem I think.

I dont really think lacking self esteem has anything to do with it. But back in the day I only liked a handful of bands. I hated punk and didnt have a reason for it. Didnt like glam or hair metal either, didnt like rap (still dont with the exception of Public Enemy and NWA), but now I punk is one of my favorite genres (the hardcore and classics from the 70s and 80s mostly, not Green Day "punk"), i also enjoy glam and hair metal as well. There really isnt a genre of metal that i wont listen except for deathcore. Just cant get into that shit. But it might has something to do with immaturity or just lack of knowledge. I wouldnt really have called myself an elitist back then, i just didnt really know anything or want to listen to anything else. Sure i like to troll once in awhile but who doesnt.

Written by R'Vannith on 14.11.2012 at 11:49

I'm not so sure about all this, I don't associate that kind of mentality with elitism really. While it's definitely close minded it seems to me be more of an over zealous loyalty or something along those lines.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 13.11.2012 at 16:49

I guess I was trying to say most of the elitist I've met were not confident in their musical taste so they bashed others to feel superior. They lack the ?confidence? to simply not give a fuck.

That doesn't seem like elitism at all to me, being an "elitist" to me is being very confident about what you like and working hard to let everyone else know that if you're not liking the same then you are "lesser" in some way.

@whatsacow: Also I think you leave out an important element, simply one's appreciation of music. For all of us it's different, some may find that once they've found that sound they really like they don't want to leave it. Some of them may even be aware that what they are doing may be called "close minded" by others, in fact they are probably well aware of it.
Then there are those who, either aware of this or not, go out of their way to make baseless criticisms of other genres. And on the most extreme level you have those who totally reject everything outside the music they listen to and criticise anything else they may hear. Rather than saying this is a popular ideal I would guess that metalheads of that mentality would be of a minority.
That's generally speaking, but when you refer to specific examples such as metalcore or pop (as they understand it) it becomes much more pronounced. I mean not every genre outside of the metal these "closeminded" bunch listen to is actively criticised or even acknowledged.

So does it really matter, beyond their own musical narrow mindedness, if they ignore genres? It's only when they make stupid collective mentalities that target particular genres like metalcore that makes it a problem I think.

"Then there are those who, either aware of this or not, go out of their way to make baseless criticisms of other genres." These are the people I'm talking about. I didn't spell it out quite as clearly as you did, but those are the people I'm criticizing. I generally don't mind people's music tastes, or having a friendly debate with friends about which band or genre is better. It's when they have the attitude of "You like this genre? You're the reason the human race should be extinct. I'm not even going to talk to you because I am far superior. Bow down to my throbbing erection!" that I get pissed off.

Written by R'Vannith on 14.11.2012 at 11:49

That doesn't seem like elitism at all to me, being an "elitist" to me is being very confident about what you like and working hard to let everyone else know that if you're not liking the same then you are "lesser" in some way.

To me if someone is confident in his musical taste, he's not gonna be bothered by other peoples taste and will accept critcism. Somebody that is not confident might be prone to put the bands and genre they like on a higher pedestral and will want everyone else to see it. And they'll also talk about how Metal is a way of life bla,bla bla.... I might be confusing elitists and fan boys thought.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 15.11.2012 at 19:38

And they'll also talk about how Metal is a way of life bla,bla bla....

and sticking it to the man and that metal is rebellious bla bla bla

Written by whatsacow on 15.11.2012 at 19:17

"Then there are those who, either aware of this or not, go out of their way to make baseless criticisms of other genres." These are the people I'm talking about. I didn't spell it out quite as clearly as you did, but those are the people I'm criticizing. I generally don't mind people's music tastes, or having a friendly debate with friends about which band or genre is better. It's when they have the attitude of "You like this genre? You're the reason the human race should be extinct. I'm not even going to talk to you because I am far superior. Bow down to my throbbing erection!" that I get pissed off.

I'm curious as to which genres in particular you think are unfairly treated as a result of these sorts of douchebags. Off the top of my head the most typical are metalcore/deathcore and that sort of stuff, pop (and that generally means anything geared for radio or is in the charts etc.), hip-hop and rap is sometimes labelled as shit as well (by metal "pure breds" that is) and country.

Or do you feel that they just do it in a more general way, like they just shut off everything else and if a subgenre happens to come to their attention they throw some shallow criticism at it? And I mean some sub-genres they may feel more confident about criticising if it has been done by others before them or with them, like a pack mentality.

Written by Edmund Fogg on 15.11.2012 at 19:38



To me if someone is confident in his musical taste, he's not gonna be bothered by other peoples taste and will accept critcism. Somebody that is not confident might be prone to put the bands and genre they like on a higher pedestral and will want everyone else to see it. And they'll also talk about how Metal is a way of life bla,bla bla.... I might be confusing elitists and fan boys thought.

That's what I would describe as "maturity" with your musical taste, being confident of your own as well respectful of that of others. You can be confident about your musical taste back still lack that maturity I think.
And that fanboy/elitist relation is understandable, I think that "fanboy" and "elitest" may overlap in some cases. A fanboy may, for example, consider certain bands only worth listening too while everything else is beneath them and therefore shite.

Usually though fanboys just really like bands but not to the point of a fanaticism that makes them bag every other band out there.

Written by R'Vannith on 16.11.2012 at 05:27

Written by whatsacow on 15.11.2012 at 19:17

"Then there are those who, either aware of this or not, go out of their way to make baseless criticisms of other genres." These are the people I'm talking about. I didn't spell it out quite as clearly as you did, but those are the people I'm criticizing. I generally don't mind people's music tastes, or having a friendly debate with friends about which band or genre is better. It's when they have the attitude of "You like this genre? You're the reason the human race should be extinct. I'm not even going to talk to you because I am far superior. Bow down to my throbbing erection!" that I get pissed off.

I'm curious as to which genres in particular you think are unfairly treated as a result of these sorts of douchebags. Off the top of my head the most typical are metalcore/deathcore and that sort of stuff, pop (and that generally means anything geared for radio or is in the charts etc.), hip-hop and rap is sometimes labelled as shit as well (by metal "pure breds" that is) and country.

Or do you feel that they just do it in a more general way, like they just shut off everything else and if a subgenre happens to come to their attention they throw some shallow criticism at it? And I mean some sub-genres they may feel more confident about criticising if it has been done by others before them or with them, like a pack mentality.

I was thinking in general. For instance, I'm mainly into avant garde metal, suicidal black metal, and extreme doom metal, but if you look at my top 5 albums of all time you'll see maudlin of the well's bath and shining's Blackjazz thrown in with Smashing pumpkins, deftones and eminem. Fair enough if you don't like those bands, but I shouldn't be told to "hang yourself you disloyal cunt"

Written by whatsacow on 19.11.2012 at 01:11

Written by R'Vannith on 16.11.2012 at 05:27

Written by whatsacow on 15.11.2012 at 19:17

"Then there are those who, either aware of this or not, go out of their way to make baseless criticisms of other genres." These are the people I'm talking about. I didn't spell it out quite as clearly as you did, but those are the people I'm criticizing. I generally don't mind people's music tastes, or having a friendly debate with friends about which band or genre is better. It's when they have the attitude of "You like this genre? You're the reason the human race should be extinct. I'm not even going to talk to you because I am far superior. Bow down to my throbbing erection!" that I get pissed off.

I'm curious as to which genres in particular you think are unfairly treated as a result of these sorts of douchebags. Off the top of my head the most typical are metalcore/deathcore and that sort of stuff, pop (and that generally means anything geared for radio or is in the charts etc.), hip-hop and rap is sometimes labelled as shit as well (by metal "pure breds" that is) and country.

Or do you feel that they just do it in a more general way, like they just shut off everything else and if a subgenre happens to come to their attention they throw some shallow criticism at it? And I mean some sub-genres they may feel more confident about criticising if it has been done by others before them or with them, like a pack mentality.

I was thinking in general. For instance, I'm mainly into avant garde metal, suicidal black metal, and extreme doom metal, but if you look at my top 5 albums of all time you'll see maudlin of the well's bath and shining's Blackjazz thrown in with Smashing pumpkins, deftones and eminem. Fair enough if you don't like those bands, but I shouldn't be told to "hang yourself you disloyal cunt"

Yeah well I think its kind of extreme, to say that to someone just for... you know... listening to music that you don't like lol. The person who told you that is probably a psychopath.. or someone mentally ill in the wrong way of being metally ill.. cuz im not implying that mentally ill people are all crazy morons and.. oh nevermind ok you got what I was saying. I agree with you though, this person is a fucked up retard.

Quote:

Quote:

Yeah well I think its kind of extreme, to say that to someone just for... you know... listening to music that you don't like lol. The person who told you that is probably a psychopath.. or someone mentally ill in the wrong way of being metally ill.. cuz im not implying that mentally ill people are all crazy morons and.. oh nevermind ok you got what I was saying. I agree with you though, this person is a fucked up retard.

This site generally has a good community. The person I was ranting about was on sputnikmusic.com... and I encounter this behavior more often than you'd think.

Written by whatsacow on 19.11.2012 at 01:11

"hang yourself you disloyal cunt"

Is that a direct quote? If it is then that relates to what I said before about it being more about some sort of mentality of a "loyalty" to metal as a genre, as opposed to an elitist attitude.

Still, you're absolutely right, no one should have their musical tastes spat upon in such a baseless way. Sure you can give them hell about it but you don't need to turn it into a personal attack.

Quote:

Quote:

Written by whatsacow on 19.11.2012 at 06:20

Yeah well I think its kind of extreme, to say that to someone just for... you know... listening to music that you don't like lol. The person who told you that is probably a psychopath.. or someone mentally ill in the wrong way of being metally ill.. cuz im not implying that mentally ill people are all crazy morons and.. oh nevermind ok you got what I was saying. I agree with you though, this person is a fucked up retard.

This site generally has a good community. The person I was ranting about was on sputnikmusic.com... and I encounter this behavior more often than you'd think.

Apart from Metalstorm, Youtube (that does not count) and Metal Archives (only for research) I don't go to any other music websites Thats probably why Im so shocked by the comment. It is true that usually people here are pretty cool and polite.

Someone mentioned fanboys in conjunction with elitism. I don't really think that is the case at all. Fanboys are never critical of their fav bands at all, whereas elitists tend to be overly critical.

As for elitism I am quite an elitist when it comes to certain genres, such as doom, extreme doom and old school death metal and thrash when thrash was still relevant and fresh and good hahahaha, but am not a fanboy there in the slightest. But I am extremely open minded when it comes to music as I am willing to try anything new. It's just that my tastes are so extremely defined after 33 and a hlaf years of being into metal that I rarely like anything outside of metal

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 22:59

and thrash when thrash was still relevant and fresh and good hahahaha

For some strange reasons... I hate you all lately loll kiddin

Written by Guib on 19.11.2012 at 23:11

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 22:59

and thrash when thrash was still relevant and fresh and good hahahaha

For some strange reasons... I hate you all lately loll kiddin

How long have you know me for saying this? Mmmmmmm forever?

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 23:18

Written by Guib on 19.11.2012 at 23:11

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 22:59

and thrash when thrash was still relevant and fresh and good hahahaha

For some strange reasons... I hate you all lately loll kiddin

How long have you know me for saying this? Mmmmmmm forever?

No its just that whole (Thrash Metal nowadays sucks) that kind of annoys the fuck out of me. Its not you personally Marcel. You can like or dislike whatever you want. Its just I find that sometimes people exagerate a little on that subject. Theres alot of awesome young thrash metal bands out there we cant just generalize, and it seems it only applies to thrash, if theres new bands doing Death, Power, Prog, Doom, Sludge (whatever) metal its okay but when its thrash it must suck. Wtf's going on with all of you

Written by Guib on 19.11.2012 at 23:20

and it seems it only applies to thrash, if theres new bands doing Death, Power, Prog, Doom, Sludge (whatever) metal its okay but when its thrash it must suck. Wtf's going on with all of you

Simple it doesn't really suck but it is just sooooo mediocre unlike in the otheer genres you mentioned PLus within thrash they try to copy the old bands way too much (even when compared to doom, but not osdam but they just rip it up unlike the new thrash bands somehow)

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 23:30

Written by Guib on 19.11.2012 at 23:20

and it seems it only applies to thrash, if theres new bands doing Death, Power, Prog, Doom, Sludge (whatever) metal its okay but when its thrash it must suck. Wtf's going on with all of you

Simple it doesn't really suck but it is just sooooo mediocre unlike in the otheer genres you mentioned PLus within thrash they try to copy the old bands way too much (even when compared to doom, but not osdam but they just rip it up unlike the new thrash bands somehow)

yeah but thats where we don't agree, I mean listen to Vektor, Sacred Ally, Skeletonwitch, Toxic Holocaust, Witheria, Revocation.. I don't see what you mean by ripping off, sure it sounds like thrash, but fuck it is thrash lol anyways I think we should get back on topic I've already debated that enough in the past and since your opinion's not gonna change and mine won't change either, its pretty much useless ain't it ?

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 23:30

Written by Guib on 19.11.2012 at 23:20

and it seems it only applies to thrash, if theres new bands doing Death, Power, Prog, Doom, Sludge (whatever) metal its okay but when its thrash it must suck. Wtf's going on with all of you

Simple it doesn't really suck but it is just sooooo mediocre unlike in the otheer genres you mentioned PLus within thrash they try to copy the old bands way too much (even when compared to doom, but not osdam but they just rip it up unlike the new thrash bands somehow)

Marcel, I seem to recall my first contact with you was through you ragging on the fact that I liked Shape of Despair lol.

And Thrash still has some great albums. Look at Machine Head's: The Blackening.

Written by whatsacow on 20.11.2012 at 02:28

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 23:30

Written by Guib on 19.11.2012 at 23:20

and it seems it only applies to thrash, if theres new bands doing Death, Power, Prog, Doom, Sludge (whatever) metal its okay but when its thrash it must suck. Wtf's going on with all of you

Simple it doesn't really suck but it is just sooooo mediocre unlike in the otheer genres you mentioned PLus within thrash they try to copy the old bands way too much (even when compared to doom, but not osdam but they just rip it up unlike the new thrash bands somehow)

Marcel, I seem to recall my first contact with you was through you ragging on the fact that I liked Shape of Despair lol.

And Thrash still has some great albums. Look at Machine Head's: The Blackening.

Or look at vektor's black future, Sacred ally's reality hammer, Revocation's chaos of forms
(...) -_- Marcel is a part-time elitist

Written by whatsacow on 20.11.2012 at 02:28

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 23:30

Written by Guib on 19.11.2012 at 23:20

and it seems it only applies to thrash, if theres new bands doing Death, Power, Prog, Doom, Sludge (whatever) metal its okay but when its thrash it must suck. Wtf's going on with all of you

Simple it doesn't really suck but it is just sooooo mediocre unlike in the otheer genres you mentioned PLus within thrash they try to copy the old bands way too much (even when compared to doom, but not osdam but they just rip it up unlike the new thrash bands somehow)

Marcel, I seem to recall my first contact with you was through you ragging on the fact that I liked Shape of Despair lol.

And Thrash still has some great albums. Look at Machine Head's: The Blackening.

MH's The Blackening is okay but nothing special since it is way too drawn out

Written by Guib on 20.11.2012 at 04:11

Written by whatsacow on 20.11.2012 at 02:28

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.11.2012 at 23:30

Written by Guib on 19.11.2012 at 23:20

and it seems it only applies to thrash, if theres new bands doing Death, Power, Prog, Doom, Sludge (whatever) metal its okay but when its thrash it must suck. Wtf's going on with all of you

Simple it doesn't really suck but it is just sooooo mediocre unlike in the otheer genres you mentioned PLus within thrash they try to copy the old bands way too much (even when compared to doom, but not osdam but they just rip it up unlike the new thrash bands somehow)

Marcel, I seem to recall my first contact with you was through you ragging on the fact that I liked Shape of Despair lol.

And Thrash still has some great albums. Look at Machine Head's: The Blackening.

Or look at vektor's black future, Sacred ally's reality hammer, Revocation's chaos of forms
(...) -_- Marcel is a part-time elitist

Sacred Ally is mediocre, Revocation I am not even going there concerning whether they are thrash or not and at that good thrash and Vektor are a poor man's Voi Vod