Written by Starvynth on 21.06.2021 at 13:54

How do the uplifting power metal melodies and saccharine keyboard sounds of Gamma Ray, Powerwolf and Galneryus fit in with album titles like Empire Of The Undead, The Sacrament Of Sin and Into The Purgatory? In my humble opinion, it doesn't fit together at all, and that's exactly why power metal is usually only bearable for me in very small doses, if at all. And that has nothing to do with the alleged fact that I have no fun in life and that I am an incorrigible pessimist who wallows in his own suffering and the misery of the world all day long, but that the exaggerated cheerfulness of power metal simply does not appeal to me any more.

I grew up with power metal at the end of the eighties, bands like Manowar, Helloween and Blind Guardian were my introduction to heavy metal and I still have fond memories of their early albums. But that was over 30 years ago, and since then my taste has changed and evolved - just as metal has significantly evolved in three decades. Most of my friends feel the same way, they began with power/heavy/speed metal and now listen to black, death and doom. But none of them is suicidal and none of them has been admitted to a mental hospital yet.
Therefore, I can't really take your generalizing remote diagnosis seriously in any way. It's simply bizarre.

This is just more misrepresentation and strawman.

Written by CWA on 19.06.2021 at 15:51

That's exactly it. It's a pattern in temperament that I see as well. It's obviously not 100% but the strong pattern holds a general truth. Two of my friends in particular who are really drawn to the heavily nihilistic side of metal are the most miserable of my friends and it just comes down to the fact that you are what you input into yourself. If you consume nihilism you will be a nihilist; If consume shallowness and pessimism you process and then most likely output such qualities.

Written by CWA on 19.06.2021 at 22:49

Also, I didnt draw conclusions about an entire fan bases mental health. I observed, recognized and mention a particular characteristic, which was pessimism, in metal fans who seem to have a hatred for the bright and clean sounds of metal, particularly power metal, but cant get enough of the dark and guttural sounds and the more wear-all-black side of metal. It's not a pattern I "want" to see, it's simple a pattern that is there.

It's quite exhausting and tiring to have discussions with people who contradict themselves within a few hours. If just a few examples ("two of my friends") are enough for you to interpret an alleged pattern as fact, then you are clearly generalizing.
Either you have recognised a strong pattern or you haven't, you cannot have your cake and eat it.
So maybe we should better leave it at that.

No contradictions were made. Please clearly point out my contradiction. I, borderline, explicitly said I was generalizing based on the pattern observed. You even quoted me "It's obviously not 100% but the strong pattern holds a general truth."

Written by Troy Killjoy on 20.06.2021 at 06:31

Also this band sucks. (I had to do it.)

Bhahahaha, love it.

Written by chomskeet on 21.06.2021 at 21:56

Also, just curious, how many metal fans actually read and pay attention to lyrics? I think that metal lyrics are generally horrible or just plain stupid and don't care at all. I think Ne Obliviscaris is the only metal band off the top of my head with stellar lyrics

I'm a lyrical fanatic. I harp on my friends about lyrics all the time and they pretty much just flip me the intellectual bird, lol. They, for the most part, are borderline anti-lyrics. I actually am more influenced by lyrics in a lot of music than I am by the chugging of the guitar or the beat of a drum. My favorite lyrics are from bands like Dream Theater, Amorphis. (Roy Khan era) Kamelot, Septicflesh, Wuthering Heights... I think I will just stop there because I can go on and on. I really think the average metal head isn't so good at interpreting, and penetrating, the depth of a lot of lyrics because they observe them from an overly literal frame of mind. I could say soooooo much about the dynamic influence of lyrics in music but I think I will save that controversy for another thread

Written by Júlio on 22.06.2021 at 01:54

My order .
16. Chameleon
15. Pink Bubbles Go Ape
14. Gambling With The Devil
13. My God Given Right
12. 7 Sinners
11. Rabbit Don't Come Easy
10. Keeper Of The Seven Keys: The Legacy
9. Straight Out Of Hell
8. The Dark Ride
7. Master Of The Rings
6. Better Than Raw
5. Walls Of Jericho
4. Time Of The Oath
3. Helloween
2. Keeper Of The Seven Keys pt. I
1. Keeper Of The Seven Keys pt. II

Really? that's a big claim to put the new record so high up on the list, but you have me excited. Amazon fucked up my pre order and now my record has been delayed by a near full month, so the anticipation is mounting.

Written by mikeprado30 on 22.06.2021 at 05:36

Well, nothing changes in Metalstorm. So many people bashing Power Metal releases "because YOLO"

So many absurds like "weak voices", "Out for the Glory weak song" (FREAKIN' REALLY? ), Kiske's "whiney voice" (GOD!!!!! ).

Better come back everybody of you to listen your blast beat feast with Cookie Monster groanings

Those things make me really loathe the toxicity Metal community has inside itself So many bashing to the effort of great musicians bringing a top-notch quality release like this one.

Ya, it's really unfortunate. I just don't get how a large portion of the metal community can only be so attracted to only the dark side of metal. When I was growing up I always like the dark and light stuff equally. I was really disappointed when I started meeting more metal fans and so many of them never listened to anything with high quality clean vocals or neoclassical musicianship.

Written by CWA on 22.06.2021 at 14:21

the average metalhead isn't so good at penetrating

interesting observation

Written by CWA on 22.06.2021 at 14:21

Written by chomskeet on 21.06.2021 at 21:56

Also, just curious, how many metal fans actually read and pay attention to lyrics? I think that metal lyrics are generally horrible or just plain stupid and don't care at all. I think Ne Obliviscaris is the only metal band off the top of my head with stellar lyrics

I'm a lyrical fanatic. I harp on my friends about lyrics all the time and they pretty much just flip me the intellectual bird, lol. They, for the most part, are borderline anti-lyrics. I actually am more influenced by lyrics in a lot of music than I am by the chugging of the guitar or the beat of a drum. My favorite lyrics are from bands like Dream Theater, Amorphis. (Roy Khan era) Kamelot, Septicflesh, Wuthering Heights... I think I will just stop there because I can go on and on. I really think the average metal head isn't so good at interpreting, and penetrating, the depth of a lot of lyrics because they observe them from an overly literal frame of mind. I could say soooooo much about the dynamic influence of lyrics in music but I think I will save that controversy for another thread

Hmmmmm, I'm not sure the issue is so much capacity for interpretation but at least in my instance has more to do with the fact that I have a finite amount of time on this planet and I'd rather focus my attention/time during each listen deciphering the complexities of the music itself, taking in the atmosphere, and trying to pay close attention to the individual instruments in order to grasp the entirety or their part. That being said, more power to you actually listening to the lyrics, it's good to have all kinds of fans who like different aspects of the music

Written by CWA on 22.06.2021 at 14:42

Written by Júlio on 22.06.2021 at 01:54

My order .
16. Chameleon
15. Pink Bubbles Go Ape
14. Gambling With The Devil
13. My God Given Right
12. 7 Sinners
11. Rabbit Don't Come Easy
10. Keeper Of The Seven Keys: The Legacy
9. Straight Out Of Hell
8. The Dark Ride
7. Master Of The Rings
6. Better Than Raw
5. Walls Of Jericho
4. Time Of The Oath
3. Helloween
2. Keeper Of The Seven Keys pt. I
1. Keeper Of The Seven Keys pt. II

Really? that's a big claim to put the new record so high up on the list, but you have me excited. Amazon fucked up my pre order and now my record has been delayed by a near full month, so the anticipation is mounting.

Yes ... For me the duets of Kiske and Deris alone make this album better than all Helloween discography with the exception of the Keppers . Sorry for my bad english.

Well you can't repeat a keeper album. But this is still great stuff for a band ar that age. Pumpins united 👊👊👊

Written by CWA on 22.06.2021 at 13:54
No contradictions were made. Please clearly point out my contradiction. I, borderline, explicitly said I was generalizing based on the pattern observed.

Quote:
It's a pattern in temperament that I see as well. It's obviously not 100% but the strong pattern holds a general truth. Two of my friends in particular who are really drawn to the heavily nihilistic side of metal are the most miserable of my friends and it just comes down to the fact that you are what you input into yourself. If you consume nihilism you will be a nihilist; If consume shallowness and pessimism you process and then most likely output such qualities.
[...]
I'm not trying to insult you but I'm guessing you're easily prone to pessimism. All the supposed metal fans friends I have that shun the power metal scene but cant get enough black and death metal are usually more bitchy, whinny and more easily irritated by the little things than the friends of mine who enjoy power metal.
[...]
Though one thing I am shocked to see from some people in this tread is that they have yet to recognize that psychological temperament and musical preference are linked.
[...]
Also, I didnt draw conclusions about an entire fan bases mental health. I observed, recognized and mention a particular characteristic, which was pessimism, in metal fans who seem to have a hatred for the bright and clean sounds of metal, particularly power metal, but cant get enough of the dark and guttural sounds and the more wear-all-black side of metal. It's not a pattern I "want" to see, it's simple a pattern that is there.

bold: your "observations" and generalizing statements on mental constitution, frame of mind, psychological temperament and character traits of a particular group
underlined: the contradiction

So which part of your own words don't you understand?

Okay I think this conversation has run its course here. Let's keep the discussion about Helloween or Helloween.

After many listens I have to say that I enjoy the album an awful lot. I'd probably even put it in fourth place after WoJ and the two Keepers. The return of Kiske and Hansen has obviously made this what it is. Hansen is a fantastic composer and guitarist, and Kiske is one of the greatest vocalists in heavy metal history. Deris is fine but there is no comparison between the two. I do enjoy them together though and it is clear that the album would be much inferior without Michael. It is good that we hardly hear the voice of Hansen, the guy is the only flaw of WoJ.

Songs-wise, the first three are truly awesome, and so are "Rise Without Chains" and "Down In The Dumps". "Skyfall" is on another level, song of the year contender. "Golden Times" deserved to be in the album instead of having the bonus track spot next to the very poor "Save My Hide". "Angels", "Indestructible", and "Robot King" are good songs. "Mass Pollution" and "Cyanide" are the weakest but they are not unlistenable. However, they prolong the album's duration and that's not to its benefit.

I would have liked a less compressed and clearer production. Considering how big of a brand name Helloween is, I would expect Nuclear Blast to have given them the best possible sound but this has not happened here. Anyway, the music is really good, and this is a great return for the band. I cannot wait to see them live.

Written by nikarg on 23.06.2021 at 01:34

It is good that we hardly hear the voice of Hansen, the guy is the only flaw of WoJ.

Funny you should say that. Kai Hansen is my favourite Helloween singer, and my favourite Helloween release is the eponymous debut EP. Don't get me wrong, Michael Kiske is obviously a much better singer, and he sings on Helloween's two best albums.
Having said that, my list of favourite Helloween releases looks like this:
1. "Helloween" EP
2. "Keeper 2"
3. "Keeper 1"
4. "Walls of Jericho"
Why the EP? Simple - all tracks are great, while on the "Keepers" and "Walls" there are some tracks that aren't up to par (March of Time, A Little Time, Reptile, Gorgar). I'm not saying they are bad though (there is no single bad track on these four releases), but I like them a little less than the rest.

^ The self-titled EP is my favourite release too. It is too great for words. I just always had it as bonus with the WoJ CD so I kind of see them as one For me the list would be:

1. "Helloween" EP
2. "Walls of Jericho"
3. "Keeper 1"
4. "Keeper 2"

They are all awesome anyway. What a glorious run they had in the '80s.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 23.06.2021 at 00:40

Okay I think this conversation has run its course here. Let's keep the discussion about Helloween or Helloween.

y u do dis.

i was just about to tell the guy that the lyrics he feels are poetic sound poetic to him because those are written keeping 14 year olds in mind but now i can't do that.

i also wanted to say hail diabolical satanic depressive black suicidal metal...

The New Album are Easy the best album since 1996, think all of the songs are awesome, Weikath at his best songwritning ever...3 masterpieces from his pen,, maybe Angels is a bit far from the Helloween kind of style...My Ranking of the songs are,,,

1. Out For The Glory - 10
2. Down In The Dumps - 10
3. Robot King - 10
4. Skyfall - 10
5. Fear Of The Fallen - 10
6. Best Time - 9
7. Rise Without Chains - 9
8. Golden Times - 9
9. Indestructible - 8
10. Mass Polution - 8
11. Angels - 7
12. Cyanide - 7
13. Save My Hide - 7

And my Ranking of the albums are ...

1. Keeper 1 & 2 - 10
2. Walls Of Jericho - 10
3. Time Of The Oath - 10
4. Master Of The Rings - 10
5. Helloween - 10
6. Better Than Raw - 9
7. Keeper Legacy - 8
8. Straight Out Of Hell - 8
9. Gambling With The Devil - 8
10. Dark Ride - 8
11. Pink Bubbles Go Ape - 7
12. My God Given Right - 7
13. Rabbit Dont Come Easy - 6
14. 7 Sinners - 6
15. Chameleon - 6

Written by nikarg on 23.06.2021 at 10:57

1. "Helloween" EP
2. "Walls of Jericho"
3. "Keeper 1"
4. "Keeper 2"

This would be my list as well, and I have the same relationship with that EP, always just kind of see it as a part of Walls Of Jericho, even though I know it isn't.

However, I'd never call Hansen's voice a flaw. He might not be as good a singer as Kiske ability-wise, but I much prefer his voice for this kind of music. And I can't imagine those early Helloween works sounding better with a different vocalist. That probably contributes to my enjoyment of Gamma Ray's latest album (or at least some of its songs) as opposed to this album, which did as much for me as every other Helloween album not mentioned in that small list: absolutely nothing.

Quote:
I have a finite amount of time on this planet and I'd rather focus my attention/time during each listen deciphering the complexities of the music itself, taking in the atmosphere, and trying to pay close attention to the individual instruments in order to grasp the entirety or their part.

I understand that if you are listening to music featuring primarily harsh vocals and are required to read the liner notes to get the lyrics, but If you can understand the vocalist I don't see how you're losing time. I personally consider the lyrics of a song to be an integral part of the music, on par with the instruments. Good lyrics add to the musical complexity and atmosphere. There are many band, I think, who write lyrics just to have something to sing too and you are definitely not losing out by not paying attention to the lyrics. Then there are bands where missing out on the lyrics is missing out on truly getting the most out of the music. In my experience, there have been many songs that Ive listened to for soooo many years that I really love, and then one day decided to delve in the lyrics of whatever song it is that I have been fawning over. More often than not, a song I didnt think I could like more than I did, enter a totally new tier of appreciation in my world. Saying all that most bands definitely dont have metal poets, just merely instrumentalists, but the metal poets that are out there should definitely not be slept on.

Written by nikarg on 23.06.2021 at 01:34

I would have liked a less compressed and clearer production. Considering how big of a brand name Helloween is, I would expect Nuclear Blast to have given them the best possible sound but this has not happened here.

Interesting, Kiske in an interview said that the album was recorded using analog technology and that I was extremely expensive for them. If I remember correctly he said it cost the band a full years salary to get it made that way. I know nothing about recording technology but I was assuming that would make that album sound superior in quality considering the financial sacrifice that was made. Amazon fucked up my pre-order and now I have to wait a near full extra month to get my hands on the album, and it's killing me softly.

Yeah ok, this album did not really reconcile me with power metal, but it was decent. I can take small doses of epicness and jubilation, and almost overdosed here. I doubt I'll ever listen to it in full again, but some songs might make their way into my playlist. I loved Skyfall. Also Rise Without Chains and Down In The Dumps were good.

Written by The Melting Snow on 22.06.2021 at 08:49

Tried 40-50 seconds of a couple of songs randomly. na. nothing to like there.

cringe vocals. predictable riffs. boring song structures.

Power Metal 101: Go "aaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaa aaaaaaaaaaaa weeeeeeeee" with the vocals. move your fingers on the fretboard at random with focus on speed even if there is no melody at all. make sure your lyrics say "glory, hell, heaven, eternity, star, skies and weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

Power Metal is for those of low IQ.

Well, let's see

Black Metal 101: Go "GRROOAAAAAAAAR" with the dark vocals, destroy the drums and riff as heck, and make sure your lyrics say "hell, satan, death, murder, etc. RAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!"

Death Metal 101: Go "RAAAAAAAAAWWWWWR" with the Cookie Monster growls, reduce to dust the drums and make an uncomprehensible sounding mess

And please forgive us you "Einstein fused with Newton"!

God, how TOXIC could be some people...: nono:

WHY THE HELL WE COULDN'T JUST RESPECT OTHER ONES' TASTES?

Such masochistic people listening something from a genre they dislike just FOR THE GODDAMN SAKE OF THROWING SHIT AS IF THERE WOULDN'T BE A TOMORROW!!!!

On paper this seems horrible, it shouldn't sound so good... What the hell is happening? the album is actually amazing!

Written by mikeprado30 on 24.06.2021 at 03:29

Well, let's see

Black Metal 101: Go "GRROOAAAAAAAAR" with the dark vocals, destroy the drums and riff as heck, and make sure your lyrics say "hell, satan, death, murder, etc. RAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!"

Death Metal 101: Go "RAAAAAAAAAWWWWWR" with the Cookie Monster growls, reduce to dust the drums and make an uncomprehensible sounding mess

And please forgive us you "Einstein fused with Newton"!

God, how TOXIC could be some people...

WHY THE HELL WE COULDN'T JUST RESPECT OTHER ONES' TASTES?

Such masochistic people listening something from a genre they dislike just FOR THE GODDAMN SAKE OF THROWING SHIT AS IF THERE WOULDN'T BE A TOMORROW!!!!

so sludge metal is the best genre because you can't ridicule it !!!
get on with your life. you like power metal, I don't, he doesn't. you don't like black metal (I don't either) it's alright.
you don't have to make other people like the stuff that you like. it shouldn't take away your enjoyment of the genre if someone else hates it, otherwise you aren't that confident in your taste. I like some Persian traditional classic music, I'm sure you don't even know what that is and probably won't like it when you hear it, I don't care.
and I'm not a masochist, I just saw it had a 8.8/10 rating so it must be good riiiiiiiight ?? and as I said I don't care about power metal so I gave it a chance with this and didn't like it. maybe some other power metal album in the future would bring joy to my ears.
and please no more genre comparisons and name callings

And if you want big time swamp-like toxicity you can go to r/metalmemes, or even more toxic, r/dankmetalmemes.
this website is the most civil and least toxic metal environment I know, they are just real people with different tastes and are respectful to each other most of the time, unlike the subreddits I mentioned.

Troy already said it once so this is the final warning that the thread is about Helloween's album, Helloween. If you want to talk about other things I am sure there are plenty of relevant threads to suit your particular needs, feel free to search these and leave your comments there.

Helloween is one of my favourite bands of all time. I otherwise don't care much for power metal, but Helloween is special. I didn't ever expect to hear such a great album by them again, so I'm really happy.

Side note, I ended up buying the CD from Nuclear Blast, and they sent me the Vinyl by mistake. I don't have a record player for that... what a pain to send it back! I guess it's worth more, but not of much worth to me

Written by Ball Fondlers on 24.06.2021 at 10:29

Helloween is one of my favourite bands of all time. I otherwise don't care much for power metal, but Helloween is special. I didn't ever expect to hear such a great album by them again, so I'm really happy.

I agree.

Written by Ball Fondlers on 24.06.2021 at 10:29

Helloween is one of my favourite bands of all time. I otherwise don't care much for power metal, but Helloween is special. I didn't ever expect to hear such a great album by them again, so I'm really happy.

Side note, I ended up buying the CD from Nuclear Blast, and they sent me the Vinyl by mistake. I don't have a record player for that... what a pain to send it back! I guess it's worth more, but not of much worth to me

You can send it to me if you don't want it.

Just order a CD from Amazon. Surely that will be a lot cheaper for postage to Aus and your vinyl will be worth a lot more in a few months when they sell out... which they always do these days.

Written by gavdann on 24.06.2021 at 11:01

Written by Ball Fondlers on 24.06.2021 at 10:29

Helloween is one of my favourite bands of all time. I otherwise don't care much for power metal, but Helloween is special. I didn't ever expect to hear such a great album by them again, so I'm really happy.

Side note, I ended up buying the CD from Nuclear Blast, and they sent me the Vinyl by mistake. I don't have a record player for that... what a pain to send it back! I guess it's worth more, but not of much worth to me

You can send it to me if you don't want it.

Just order a CD from Amazon. Surely that will be a lot cheaper for postage to Aus and your vinyl will be worth a lot more in a few months when they sell out... which they always do these days.

I live in now germany now, so it arrived in a day

Interesting. I guess I could hang onto the Vinyl. It did come at the price of a CD!

So happy when the album rating goes green (8.5 +) ...