Islam

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wow...seriously i have never come a cross such a traitor!
this person actually wants other country to attack he's!

he is not a betrayer, he just speaks the truth, its a fact that Iranians are waiting for a Saviour, they don't care if its American or even Iranian, the majority of people are always waiting

are you even iranian?

You are really annoying me like a wanderer mosquito. wanna be killed ??
ofcourse im iranian, of the most true ones.

Written by Mosquiller on 10.06.2008 at 01:23

You are really annoying me. youre a mosquito wandering in threads
ofcourse im iranian, of the most traitor ones; Mr. Spammer.

Written by Judas on 07.06.2008 at 11:32

Talking historically here, do many Islamic countries remain proud of their pre-Islamic heritage? Besides the obvious example of Egypt, I know that Iran still holds the Zoroastrian Empire of Ancient Persia in very high esteem; many Central Asian nations claim Zoroaster/Zarathustra/Zartosht as being born in their land even though they are now Islamic countries, and even Pakistan and Afghanistan (pre-Taliban) maintain(ed) historical sites which are linked to pre-Islamic cultures (e.g. Indus Valley sites and Taxila ruins in Pakistan, Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanistan which are currently being rebuilt after the Taliban destroyed them). Turkey had the Hittites and the Byzantines, Tunisia had Carthage, Iraq had Sumeria and Babylon... Still proud, or is more emphasis put on the Islamic era?

I know about mine,we concentrate when studying history on the history of Carthage more than any other era,we have TV channels having names of carthagian heroes(ex : Hannibal TV),you can see traces of Carthagian ruins in almost every town in tunisia,espatially forts,we have always tried to revive that history although a great part of was destroyed by the romans.
I saw a TV program the other time about a little town in Syria that still speaks syriani,the language that Jesus Christ (A) spoke,the syrian government made programs to keep that ancient language from disapearing and it's now tought in some schools there.Anyway I think that exept the ex Afghanistan,muslims are definetly proud of their pre-islam history,it's a source of pride and there is nothing that can possibly keep them from being proud of it.
Don't forget that when the prophet Muhammed (S) entered Mecca,he did not destroy the Ka'ba,although it was a symbol of the pagan history of Arabia,because he knew the historical importance and depth of that building,yes he did destroy the 'puppets' inside the ka'ba,but he kept it, actually he even helped maintaining it before islam,and it bacame a great islamic religious monument.

Written by Mosquiller on 10.06.2008 at 00:22


I don know But his father's parents should have been either jewish or christian... ok man forget it.

I wonder why some ppl say there were 124,000 prophets. is it true or what ?!

I don't know and nobody can really tell but for sure there are many that the Quran did not mention.

Written by Freezer on 28.05.2008 at 23:31

what do you think about your politico-religious situation? I've read that the conservative parties kind of dominated legislative elections (even by prohibiting campaigning to the opponents in some regions :|), I hope your country will manage to get out of this.
Why is religion still this strong (and often violent) there?

as Hamird mentioned, "because Religion is the best thing to control people."
and ALSO because: simply ppl, activities, beliefs, etc are divided to 2 groups: US and THEM, there is NO relativism, NO exceptions.
then it's conspiracy illusion's turn, every single thing or person that belogs to the THEM group is a danger and must be defeated immediatly and as long as most ppl are Believers here, of course they support the US side.
well...and few remainder number of ppl who are not supportes of the government are classified to 2 groups, the first group are those who have no basic problem with an islamic basis for the country, all they want is a more moderate method in government, law,... and the second group (Actually the smallest and most respectful ) are those who
have a fundamental criticism against every single basis of the current condition BUT they are diffused_not united_ and somehow disappointed with the feeling of being a stranger among their own ppl, so they couldn't do anything effective so far. that's it.
i hope it helps...



@Diminished2b for "Religion makes mankind seem less intelligent with each passing day."
and "Only science will save us from ourselves."
RIGHT!

@ THE_BLACK_GOD for: "why islam is important for u here ?!!! there is no fuckin nice thing in it ,...full of **** "
Hahaha...hell YEAHHHHHHH!!!

@Black Winter for:
1_"The veil is not an essential thing in faith,I consider forcing women to wear the veil is a sign of opression but for her chosing to wear the veil (wether she is married or not) is I think acceptable,I personally don't care too much about the veil,because based on the goals of the sheria,the reason why the veil was mentionned is first of all to protect women and to make them have a proper decent look,but today,I think a woman can be a muslim and look proper and decent without wearing the veil,actaully there is a sheikh called Taher Bin Achour who is an explainer of the Quran,who said that the veil could not be seen as an essential thing in Islam,I don't know enough other opinions on this matter but our gouvernment adopt his view of the Quran and makes rules to prohibit the wearing of the
veil in constitutions,which I am also against because I like to leave freedom for every woman to decide for herself without being pushed away by the gouvernment nor pushed into it by sciety."

it's your own personal oponion NOT what islam says. according to quran, women MUST cover their whole body except their face and hands from the age of NINE, and it is not a matter of choice at all_as far as i know.

2_ "there is no devine law about suicide bombing,it is complicated, since suicide is a major and an unforgivable sin in Islam"

suicide is ,but Martyrdom is highly valued so is fighting against non-belivers.

3_about scientific roots of Quran:
if you move BACKWARDS you can almost find a scientific explaination for everything. i.e you can simply say that determinism (believed in some other ideaologies, not islam) is a scientific fact because it is rooted in our restriction to our genes_ we are born with it and it controls every aspect of our lives, so we are somehow controlled by it!!!
and by this you may simply conclude that the idea of determination has had a rich scientific root behind it years ago, even before knowing what genes are...

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 10.06.2008 at 19:02

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it's your own personal oponion NOT what islam says. according to quran, women MUST cover their whole body except their face and hands from the age of NINE, and it is not a matter of choice at all_as far as i know.

No actually the Quran doesn't say that,it does not say a thing about covering head,the basic aya on which we build that assumption is the aya 31 from Al Noor chapter but that says that They shall cover their chests,not heads,of course you can show me from where you got the idea that they should cover all but their face and hands? And yes that's my opinion,and I share with a lot of other people.

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suicide is ,but Martyrdom is highly valued so is fighting against non-belivers.

martyrdom of course,but if you kill yourself,not the enemy,does that mean you are a martyr,personally I strongly doubt it,since God tells us not to get desperate of his mercy nor to throw one's self at waste,and many people disagree with me,but we can deal with that issue based on Ijtihad,since it did not happen in times of the prophet.

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if you move BACKWARDS you can almost find a scientific explaination for everything. i.e you can simply say that determinism (believed in some other ideaologies, not islam) is a scientific fact because it is rooted in our restriction to our genes_ we are born with it and it controls every aspect of our lives, so we are somehow controlled by it!!!
and by this you may simply conclude that the idea of determination has had a rich scientific root behind it years ago, even before knowing what genes are...

so if we accept that whatever scientific fact that the Quran countains is quoted from somewhere else,although it highly unlikely since a lot of it has no previous reference, how is it that whatever the Quran quoted,was only the truth? why didn't it quote something then turned out to be wrong?see?

Written by Black Winter on 10.06.2008 at 20:04

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No actually the Quran doesn't say that,it does not say a thing about covering head,the basic aya on which we build that assumption is the aya 31 from Al Noor chapter but that says that They shall cover their chests,not heads,of course you can show me from where you got the idea that they should cover all but their face and hands? And yes that's my opinion,and I share with a lot of other people.

what i say is based on shiites' belief_ i don't know about Sunnites', as you know they consider islam's prophet and imams' quotes and behaviour as an EXPLAINATION to Quran. and if i remember correctly, i read a quote in which, arab women where described as :there is a black crow on their heads_ it means their heads was covered by veil.and Muhammad's doughter (Fatima) is ALWAYS portrayed all in black.

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martyrdom of course,but if you kill yourself,not the enemy,does that mean you are a martyr,personally I strongly doubt it,since God tells us not to get desperate of his mercy nor to throw one's self at waste,and many people disagree with me,but we can deal with that issue based on Ijtihad,since it did not happen in times of the prophet.

as you know Jihad is a very important part of islam, as the Martyrs are supposed to be eternally alive in Heavens and God is Totally satisfied with them_ in Quran we see such content: Don't consider those died in God's Path, Dead; they are Alive by God and... .
in a suicide bombing, the bomber kills the enemy with him/her self_ not only her/him self and considers his/her body a sacrifice to God.

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so if we accept that whatever scientific fact that the Quran countains is quoted from somewhere else,although it highly unlikely since a lot of it has no previous reference, how is it that whatever the Quran quoted,was only the truth? why didn't it quote something then turned out to be wrong?see?

you got me wrong on this...i didn't mean " whatever scientific fact that the Quran countains is quoted from somewhere else..", i meant : there are some sarcastic, metaphors, not exact things in Quran and you use current science achievements to Interpret those non-presice indications. i.e, in Quran we see an indication to skies: the SKIES were bind and we opend them..., some ppl use this as an indication to Big Bang!!!
but how can you prove the non-clear text of Quran really means this?
BESIDES, it even uses SKIES not SKY which indicates the wrong idea of multiple and leveled skies (7 skies, mostly) above the earth!!!

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 10.06.2008 at 21:58

Both sunnites and shiites share the same ideas about main things,I personally see that sunnites are mostly more simple-minded and reasonable in matters of faith and sheria and orthodox,while the shiites are more advanced in philosophy,economy and more clever.
About the issue of the veil, there is no difference between the two teams mainstream,they see it compulsory,because I think there have not been some major fatwa on similar matters since the fall of the united muslim nation,so the rules that remained are those that were made back in that period,and then,it was common for women to cover their heads,I think that now we need to work more with the Ijtihad way,maybe it's kind of hard to concentrate on a similar issue and make the call because it's a mess right now,we have more important issues like extremism,war..nobody is listening to the other.
Sunnites give a very high importance to the acts and quotes of the prophet,but they give less importance to the acts of the companions like Ali,Abubakr (R),bacause those can serve us to clarify some things in the quran,for example,prayer,in the Quran it is mentioned,but not in details,so we see the Hadith,which contains the right detailed explanation of the task.Some people try to immitate everything that the prophet does,the way he does it,because they think that it's valuable, but not all what the prophet does is to immitate,plus,it's important that any hadith must be compatible with the Quran,since it's the first part of the sheria.

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as you know Jihad is a very important part of islam, as the Martyrs are supposed to be eternally alive in Heavens and God is Totally satisfied with them_ in Quran we see such content: Don't consider those died in God's Path, Dead; they are Alive by God and... .
in a suicide bombing, the bomber kills the enemy with him/her self_ not only her/him self and considers his/her body a sacrifice to God.

Suicide bombing is a controversy,because we don't havez any record of that happening before,some think it's right because it seems sometimes pretty much the only way to fight the enemy,and they think it is similar to kill the enemy and get killed by him,and dying to kill the enemy,and some others think just the fact of killing yourself is unacceptable,because the suicide bomber knows already that he is going to kill himself,while martyrdom must be to a certain level unintentional,personally I am moderatly in favour of the second opinion.

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you got me wrong on this...i didn't mean " whatever scientific fact that the Quran countains is quoted from somewhere else..", i meant : there are some sarcastic, metaphors, not exact things in Quran and you use current science achievements to Interpret those non-presice indications. i.e, in Quran we see an indication to skies: the SKIES were bind and we opend them..., some ppl use this as an indication to Big Bang!!!
but how can you prove the non-clear text of Quran really means this?
BESIDES, it even uses SKIES not SKY which indicates the wrong idea of multiple and leveled skies (7 skies, mostly) above the earth!!!

Good point there,and in the Quran there is an aya that confirms your idea,

"(3-7)"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."


when I for example interpret some verse in a certain way,I definetly don't say that my interpretation is the correct one,but I only say that it's the most likely to me,because even if the meaning might seem all clear to me,it may not seem so to you,but to me,some verses are simply clear and not possible to be interpreted in another way,espatially if the interpretation fits the scientific truth.About this I remember a note from AlGhazali,a muslim thinker,he asked one of his mates:
-What if we,one day find scientific facts that contradict the Quran?
-then science is wrong! right?
-No,then science is correct,but our interpretation of the Quran is wrong.
About the verse linked to the Big bang,it tlaks clearly about the creation,I think it says,".. skies and earth were one mass and we unstitched them",this i think indeed,can possibly be referrig to the way the universe was born,which is quite similar to the big bang theory

Written by Black Winter on 10.06.2008 at 23:13

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Both sunnites and shiites share the same ideas about main things,I personally see that sunnites are mostly more simple-minded and reasonable in matters of faith and sheria and orthodox,while the shiites are more advanced in philosophy,economy and more clever.
About the issue of the veil, there is no difference between the two teams mainstream,they see it compulsory,because I think there have not been some major fatwa on similar matters since the fall of the united muslim nation,so the rules that remained are those that were made back in that period,and then,it was common for women to cover their heads,I think that now we need to work more with the Ijtihad way,maybe it's kind of hard to concentrate on a similar issue and make the call because it's a mess right now,we have more important issues like extremism,war..nobody is listening to the other.
Sunnites give a very high importance to the acts and quotes of the prophet,but they give less importance to the acts of the companions like Ali,Abubakr (R),bacause those can serve us to clarify some things in the quran,for example,prayer,in the Quran it is mentioned,but not in details,so we see the Hadith,which contains the right detailed explanation of the task.Some people try to immitate everything that the prophet does,the way he does it,because they think that it's valuable, but not all what the prophet does is to immitate,plus,it's important that any hadith must be compatible with the Quran,since it's the first part of the sheria.

how do you say that??
as you know i live in a shiite country and EXACTLY ALL of the mojtaheds have the same idea about hijab and it's: all women from the age of 9 must cover their whole body except their hands and face according to Islam!!!!
that's all.

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Suicide bombing is a controversy,because we don't havez any record of that happening before,some think it's right because it seems sometimes pretty much the only way to fight the enemy,and they think it is similar to kill the enemy and get killed by him,and dying to kill the enemy,and some others think just the fact of killing yourself is unacceptable,because the suicide bomber knows already that he is going to kill himself,while martyrdom must be to a certain level unintentional,personally I am moderatly in favour of the second opinion.

sorry, but you are talking about your own oponions NOT what islam actually says.
as far as i know, none of the mojtahedin hasnt banned suicide bombing so far because the bomber gets killed himself!!

don't try to tell me what islam is because i know, i live in iran... But you know, IMO, you've created a new MODERATE islam for yourself and all the time talk about THAT not the real islam.
i value your moderated views, because not so many muslims can be so...but when we talk about islam here, we mean real islam.

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when I for example interpret some verse in a certain way,I definetly don't say that my interpretation is the correct one,but I only say that it's the most likely to me,because even if the meaning might seem all clear to me,it may not seem so to you,but to me,some verses are simply clear and not possible to be interpreted in another way,espatially if the interpretation fits the scientific truth.About this I remember a note from AlGhazali,a muslim thinker,he asked one of his mates:
-What if we,one day find scientific facts that contradict the Quran?
-then science is wrong! right?
-No,then science is correct,but our interpretation of the Quran is wrong.
About the verse linked to the Big bang,it tlaks clearly about the creation,I think it says,".. skies and earth were one mass and we unstitched them",this i think indeed,can possibly be referrig to the way the universe was born,which is quite similar to the big bang theory

nice job!, EXACTLY what MOST religious ppl say, thanX LOL, but seriously,this answer_No,then science is correct, but our interpretation of the Quran is wrong_ is acceptable ONLY for muslims who strongly believe that God exists and Quran is sent by him BUT you know, I DONT.
and then in this way QURAN IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!! because you can always interpret it as you wish...no matter if someday SCIENCE proves that for example: earth is flat, then you will simply change your interpretation to fit the new found result, great!!!!
that's just what some creationists did, first they mocked the evolution theory, then they tried to match the interpretation of their holy book with it, and now they talk about intelligent design!!!!!!!

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 11.06.2008 at 01:03

I have not created a thing,I did not invent any of those ideas,you can check out the imam Taher Ben Achour's book "The Goals of the islamic sheria",it talks about the veil not being definetly compulsory,and he did talk about it a very long time ago,you might have heard of Yusuf Alkaradhawi since he is probably the most famous sheikh currently,I have read in his website that the veil is not an essential issue,espatially if it might risk a woman to be turned away from islam, of course you can tell me where in the Quran you find that women must totally cover up since the age of nine.
There is nothing in the Quran nor in the Hadith about suicide bombing,since it's new,as I have told about the two opinions,I have told which one I am for,and you are free to be for whatever you want,because diversity of opinions is a bless in Islam,if we know how to use it.
It's not like we are trying to cheat or anything,because you can look more into scientific facts in the Quran,they are many,not just one or two,but many,but believe me,if you want to disbelieve every single one of them you will,because before all it's a matter of faith,the Quran is not a science book and religion is not a scientific debate,we have not in islam changed anything to fit any other,we deny the current form of the theory of evolution,we have never changed a clear meaning,you can bring anything that you think contradicts science in the quran and we will discuss it,any way I have mentionned some in this thread during the conversation with taka,you can check previous pages,and you can google it,but remember not to believe everything you find,focus on what seems most simply correct and reasonable.

Written by Black Winter on 11.06.2008 at 16:06

hey, as i told you i don't need you teach me what islam is nor do i need search because i've been grown up with it.
honestly all i now about islam, in our books_ even SCHOOL books, tv films, newspapers, preachers, etc is not what you say.

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where in the Quran you find that women must totally cover up since the age of nine

as i said before several times, part of the things i say is not from Quran, it has been quoted from Muhammad or Imams_ like age 9.
in siite idealogy interpretation of Quran is not a matter of personal ideas at all, since every muslim_ girls from the age of 9 and boys from the age of 15_ must choose a mojtahid and follow him in Ahkams(islamic rules).
here are 2 examples for that F***in Hijab thing:
1.Ayatolah Khomeini_you certainly know this man, in his Resalah, clearly says:
women must cover their whole body and hair from men, he even suggests that it's better to be covered even from teenage boys, too; he also says that women must do this even when they say prayers.
he also adds that if a male doctor can cure his female patient without touching her or even looking at her, it's better for the doctor not to do so...
2.Ayatolah Motahhari_he is also wellknown in iran, has written a book about hijab called Hijab Issue, in which he talks alot about the proves from Quran and Muhammad's Quotes, he also names some disproves too BUT finally he says the same thing AGAIN: everywhere except face and hands_ Vajh O Kaffein.

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There is nothing in the Quran nor in the Hadith about suicide bombing

true,but what if we consider that a kind of Jihad or a war Tactic!!!!
PLUS this fact that it's again the matter of Ijtihad, and as i said befor: as far as i know none of the current Mojtahids has ever said anything against it.

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diversity of opinions is a bless in Islam

HUH?...are you kidding me, Of course it's not, so what is that Mortad (apostate) thing?or Kafar(athiest) thing?or Moshrek(heathen, polyheist) thing? that ALL must be killed or Converted to islam?
we'd better say:
diversity of oponions is a bess in islam as long as it is JUST THE SAME AS ISLAM!!!!

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if you want to disbelieve every single one of them you will,because before all it's a matter of faith.

TRUE, of course it's a matter of faith.

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we have never changed a clear meaning.

and i didn't say you did so. i didn't say CLEAR MEANINGS, i said, those sarcastic, metaphoric, unclear pars of Quran that can have different interpretations.
and most of those so-called scientific parts of Quran belong to the second group.

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we deny the current form of the theory of evolution.

who do you mean by WE!!??
how can you talk about EVERY muslim?
CAZ i've heard about a muslim man_don't remember his name, who is working on matching the creation MYTH with evolution THEORY, to come to something STUPID like intelligent design_ just as some christians did!

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I have not created a thing,I did not invent any of those ideas

lets NOT call it invention or creation, it's just MODIFYing.
and it's not only you, i've seen other muslims who try to do the same thing, like Dr. Ali Shari@i .
but let's be REALISTIC, it wont be islam anymore...

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I have mentionned some in this thread during the conversation with taka,you can check previous pages.

no offends but i have to say: NO, thanX.
i've heard enough about islam in my whole DAMNED life, and you know, i'm really tired of it _ same things over and over again and i've made my mind before _
< i DO NOT believe a single word of islam nor of any other relligion. >
Thats all.

@ Keyser Söze :
Maybe you should have learned about Islam from it's true roots,why should Alkhomeini quotes be correct?in Islam,the fondamental source is the Quran,not what X or Y says,if you were interested,I would have advised you to check more opinions about religious matters,and see how other muslims outside your country see Islam,and before all that,to read some of the Quran.

@ taka :
maybe I don't know enough about the theory of evolution exept some program I wathched once on french TV,but I have to say that since the main idea is that all the existant livings are the source of probability rules (brassages interchrosomiques I don't know it in english) and from one common embryonic cell,it does not fit my faith.creation clearly opposes the core idea of evolution.at least for me.
and actually it is more likely for a person who grows up surrounded by fanatic forms of religion to grow up and revolt against it.

Written by Black Winter on 11.06.2008 at 23:02

Maybe you should have learned about Islam from it's true roots,why should Alkhomeini quotes be correct?in Islam,the fondamental source is the Quran,not what X or Y says,if you were interested,I would have advised you to check more opinions about religious matters,and see how other muslims outside your country see Islam,and before all that,to read some of the Quran.

do you even read my posts??? of Course NOT. you only say what you wanna say.


i've read Quarn and that's exacrly WHY i don't believe in it.


pewwwwwwwwwf, you're making me really tired because i have to repeat things all the time.
i didn't say Khomeini is important himself, his words is an example of what almost ALL mojtahids say about hijab.
how is it that it's ok for you to bring examples of other ppl_ Taher Ben Achour for example, but for me it's not?
and of Course his(Khomeini) ideas are NOT correct CAZ i don't belive in them lolZ , well...seriously, who are you to say whether they are correct or not? thousands of muslims follow him. is it you don't believe in ijtihad or you yourself are a mojtahid if it's so then it's something else!!
or maybe you don't even know what ijtihad is or who a mojtahid is?

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see how other muslims outside your country see Islam.

i don't really need that, az you say yourself it's clear from Quarn.
and maybe you'd better see how other muslims are, outside YOURSELF

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and actually it is more likely for a person who grows up surrounded by fanatic forms of religion to grow up and revolt against it.

that's because they simply can see the TRUE UGLY face of relligion better

Written by akatana on 11.06.2008 at 21:26

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I like the fact that despite living in such a religious state you are an atheist. It takes a lot to grow up surrounded by religion and escape the indoctrination. I hope you can escape your regime.

i hope so too, Taka. and the hardest part in such religious countries is that you even have to fight your Parents for being yourself.

in additon to what Taka wrote about EVOLUTION:

In one of the most detailed human DNA studies, researchers analyzed nearly 12,000 genes, The findings suggest that about 9 percent of the human genes that were examined are undergoing rapid evolution.
one of the researchers said: "Our study suggests that natural selection has played an important role in patterning the human genome"

this reaserch was important CAZ While mainstream scientists do not need further evidence that natural selection occurs , Bustamante's work provides examples of its pace and extent and offers the promise of medical advances.

Another 13 percent of the genes examined in the study showed evidence for negative selection , whereby harmful mutations are weeded out of the population. These included some genes implicated in hereditary diseases, such as muscular dystrophy.

Another study indicated the human brain is still evolving, too.
the researchers report, Using DNA samples from ethnically diverse populations, they identified a collection of variations in each gene that occurred with unusually high frequency.
In fact, the variations were so common they couldn't be accidental mutations
but instead were probably due to natural selection , where genetic changes that are favorable to a species quickly gain a foothold and begin to spread.

you know taka maybe I should read more into it before I can reply properly
and Keyser Söze,I wish we could have a more mature conversation,ijtihad in the way you see it is distorted,I am not sure if this is all the shiite beliefs but I know there is a difference between what you say and what mainstream sunni muslims say

Written by Black Winter on 12.06.2008 at 10:44

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I wish we could have a more mature conversation.

so do i.

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ijtihad in the way you see it is distorted,I am not sure if this is all the shiite beliefs but I know there is a difference between what you say and what mainstream sunni muslims say.

i don't think it's just the matter of shiites, AGAIN as said before what shiite Mojtahids say is based on what Muhammad and Imams had said, if it's distorted, well then it's not what they(mojtahids) created, it IS in islam.
if i remmber correctly years ago there was a fire in girl's school in saudi arabia, and it caused a big controversy as little girls ran outside of the school without their covers and ..._ they are sunnie, aren't they?
plus women in saudi arabia, for example afghan and iraqi women even cover their face and hands, too.
still you can simply say it's a matter of culture not isalm.
well, maybe it's just as cutting the hands of a thief, it can clearly be seen in Quran, but thanx to the current world, most of the islamic countries don't perform it to that extreme_ NOT in every thievery case at least. because they find it against their own advantages today, but it doesn't change the nature of islam in which it is essential to be performed.
before you star denying it's existance in quran, i put the exact text here:
5:38-"As to the thief male or female cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example from Allah for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in Power."




BTW, about those so-called scientific indications, it's the path muslims go:
Quran is full of unclear sentences, when a scientific fact is found, 2 cases may happen:

1.muslims first try to see if they can match one of those unclear sentences with this new found result. if they succeed they will be happy for finding a new prove for their holy book, it happened about gravity for example. and from that time they use it as a scientific proof.
but it's a just a TRICK, CAZ all those unclear things had no meaning before science proved a fact. i.e. without science it was almost impossible for them to extract that result from Quran itself.

2.if they can't match any of those unclear sentences or a clear sentence exists it Quran against it, then they simply reject that scientific result. that's what happent to Evolution theory, not only muslims can't interpret any unclear text as an indication to that but also there exists clear contents against it in quran_ the story of Adam and Eve.

Written by akatana on 12.06.2008 at 11:37

I hope you will, here are some great sites that explain it

http://evolution.berkeley.edu
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html

PLUS Richard Dawkins Books specially:
The God Delusion
The Ancestor's Tale
The Selfish Gene
Climbing Mount Improbable
River out of Eden
The Blind Watchmaker

and his official website:
http://www.richarddawkins.net/

Keyser Söze

Quote:
well, maybe it's just as cutting the hands of a thief, it can clearly be seen in Quran, but thanx to the current world, most of the islamic countries don't perform it to that extreme_ NOT in every thievery case at least. because they find it against their own advantages today, but it doesn't change the nature of islam in which it is essential to be performed.
before you star denying it's existance in quran, i put the exact text here:
5:38-"As to the thief male or female cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example from Allah for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in Power."

I already talked about htis a long time before you come her,so I will copy/paste it for you
cutting hands for stealing,is not what you think,actually the circumstances and conditions that should happen make it hard to apply the punishment,among them,stealing what is hidden and behind a lock,with previous determination, stealing further than your needs..Punishment by hand cutting and stoning were applied in a very limited way during history,five or six times I think.In the other hand,muslim societies used to be clean of every kind of corruption,vice,crime..So the main goal of those punishment was to make people think many times before daring to commit a wrong thing.

Quote:
if i remmber correctly years ago there was a fire in girl's school in saudi arabia, and it caused a big controversy as little girls ran outside of the school without their covers and ..._ they are sunnie, aren't they?

In Islam we have a well known rule that says :"Necessities make the forbidden allowed",that means that if at any point a person felt danger for his life,he can break all the rules,not only secondary rules, in order to survive. You may have heard of one of the prophet's companions,who,under threat,was forced to curse God and participate in worshipping pagan Gods,then after that he told the prophet of what he did,and the prophet told him that he had nothing to worry about.

About evolution,I still have some reading to do.

Written by Black Winter on 12.06.2008 at 20:13

Quote:

actually the circumstances and conditions that should happen make it hard to apply the punishment,among them,stealing what is hidden and behind a lock,with previous determination, stealing further than your needs..Punishment by hand cutting and stoning were applied in a very limited way during history,five or six times I think.In the other hand,muslim societies used to be clean of every kind of corruption,vice,crime..So the main goal of those punishment was to make people think many times before daring to commit a wrong thing.

i've heard about those conditions BUT:
first, those conditions you say, are not in Quran, are they?
second, by putting more conditions for such things, you can't reduce their uglinesss. plus this fact that those conditions you mentioned are NOT hard to accure. ppl hide their valuable objects and to get them, the thief must have plans and etc, then simply most theiveries may fit these circumstances.
if that punishment is not performed today, it has another reason but unaccurance of the conditions...
and even in those non-common cases of executing the hand cutting:
suppose someone steals something hidden, with previouse determination and more than his needs and etc, is it really fair to cut his hands??
is it ok to frighten ppl or make them think by using any grim method??
is it humane to make someone handicapped FOREVER because they ONCE stole something more than their needs??
plus this fact that even if this man with his hands cutted decides to be a normal citizen and earn a living in a right way, will he be able to do so with his hands cutted??
after all, despite all those conditions, does the punishment fit the crime??

well, my answer to all those questions is simply, NO.

Quote:

Necessities make the forbidden allowed.

yeah. but unfortunatly this had no meaning for those ppl. my intension of that example was to show that despite your saying, even sunnies in saudi arabia care about Hijab and believe in the necessity of it.

@ taka
Well,as a matter of fact there is nothing wrong with the evolutionary thesis,I have to say that I have already studied some of those notions at school,but not under the notion of 'evolution' it was a part of genetics courses,but still,I am not for generalizing this to contain our human specie,for there is no clear fossile evidence about a common ancestor than concerns humans,but the notion of the theory itself is very acceptable of course.

@ Keyser Soze
The problem with you,in addition to your high temper,is that you think you really understand Islam because you live in iran.
If you look at islamic history,you would find that these punishments were executed very limitedly,not just because the condition were hard to happen,but because people got the message,DO NOT STEAL ! those societies were clean of than kind of misbehaviour,so if this law works great,why criticize it? it's main job is to HOLD stealers BACK not to 'cut hands'.
To get over with this Hijab thing,if I were a muslim woman,I would wear it,to follow the sunna of our great prophet,but I am telling you over and over and over that it is not clearly obligated in the Quran,plus things change and based on the goals of the sheria we can consider it recommanded but not definetly obligated.

Written by Black Winter on 14.06.2008 at 23:42

The problem with you,in addition to your high temper,is that you think you really understand Islam because you live in iran.
If you look at islamic history,you would find that these punishments were executed very limitedly,not just because the condition were hard to happen,but because people got the message,DO NOT STEAL ! those societies were clean of than kind of misbehaviour,so if this law works great,why criticize it? it's main job is to HOLD stealers BACK not to 'cut hands'.
To get over with this Hijab thing,if I were a muslim woman,I would wear it,to follow the sunna of our great prophet,but I am telling you over and over and over that it is not clearly obligated in the Quran,plus things change and based on the goals of the sheria we can consider it recommanded but not definetly obligated.

call me whatever you want, i don't really care.
call me a poooor guy who is misleaded because is unable understand the perfectness of your dear islam.
and i'm NOT going to argue more about cutting hands or hijab, because i've already said what i had to say.
but let me add 3 things:
1.there are many logical ways to tell ppl not to steal than treathening them by hand cutting _for example PRISON does the same and it's much more logical and humane_ and if it(handcutting) works, it doesn't mean it's correct.
if your relligion suggests such primitive methods (hand cutting is just ONE of them) then something's wrong with it.
2.it's not the matter of what you did , if you were a muslim woman. it's the matter of the nature of islam and islamic rules.
3.when we talk about hijab, you all the time tell me that it is not in Quran then it's not a strong rule and when we talk about hand cutting, you speak of conditions that are NOT in Quran but you still strongly emphasize on them.


before i make you ANGRY again, i'd better Finish it all...

taka
I can assure you that the number of chromosomes,although it may appear as a good argument,does not make any sense at all,because it does not mean anything even if it's the same,because we can find species with chromosome numbers close to human's but yet phenotipically way different,let's take for example bats,they don't seem anything like humans,exept the fact that they are mamipheres,but they fly,we don't,there is no possible mach when it comes to seize, but surprizingly,they have 44 chromosomes,that means,the same margin of the human/ape case.And here is the fact,with even the same number of chromosomes,we have very different species,the porpoise and the bat have both the exact same number of chromosomes,that is 44.
Moving to genes,as you say 8% only is what makes retroviral sequence,and still,if we,and my mate,happened to write those thousand pages but repeating the same four letter word with which we had started,I think that the probability that we come up with identical papers increases dramaticly.
And after all,those studies only focus on human/ape similaity,why didn't we have studies that compare hman specie with any other unlikely specie to have common ancestor with it,ther will be probably similar results,thus,it would throw this theory in the trash,we know that worm genome is 75% identical to haman's,so what? does it prove a thing?the only thing that proves is that all the living species on earth have things in common,you say it's the a same ancestor,I say it's a same God.

Keyser Soze
be certain that I was not angry,I only tried to talk to you in a language that you would GET you know using UPCASE and stuff, I already told you about some aspects of islamic law,when we have an obscure rule in the Quran,we need to make it clear by matching it with the sunna,and I gave the example of prayer,in the Quran it's just mentionned with no details,can we then do it like that? no,we need more details,thus,we look at the saint sunna,okay?Do not pretend to know what you don't know,it's the first step to know the truth.

Written by Black Winter on 15.06.2008 at 10:52

Do not pretend to know what you don't know,it's the first step to know the truth.

thanX for your GREAT advice!!!
how do you know that i don't know? who do think you are? an all-knowing man?
before Judging or labeling ppl, read what they actually say, when i say "3.when we talk about hijab, you all the time tell me that it is not in Quran then it's not a strong rule and when we talk about hand cutting, you speak of conditions that are NOT in Quran but you still strongly emphasize on them. " , it doesn't mean i don't know about matching Quran with Sunna, all i wanted to say, was that in the case of Hijab for example you ignore Quotes of prophet and imams and only mention Quran. if you remember, i myself mentioned that Matching before you try to teach me. islam is not only what you say it is and you are not the only one who knows the truth about it.


the best way to answer someone you disagree, is to simply tell them that they do not know anything about the subject of discussion, just as you did.

here's the results of some recent studies:

in 2005, A study of genes in humans and chimpanzees pins down with greater accuracy when the two species split from one.
The evolutionary divergence occurred between 5 million and 7 million years ago, an estimate that improves on the previous range of 3 million to 13 million years in the past.
Kumar's team used a recently developed method in genetic sequencing to make the most comprehensive comparison to date of genes from humans, chimps, macaque monkeys and rats. They examined the number of mutations in the DNA sequence of each species to estimate its rate of evolutionary change.
* The results were released in the online version of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.



in 2008, researchers have found that we share a similar brain pattern when communicating.
Broca's area, located in the part of the human brain known as the inferior frontal gyrus, has been shown to be critical for human speech and sign language. When a person speaks, or even plans to say something, this region lights up with activity.
Taglialatela and his colleagues used a PET scan to image activity in the brains of three chimps after doing two tasks. In one, the chimps asked for food by gesturing and vocalizing - making grunts and other noises. In another they passed rocks out of their cages in exchange for food, as they had been taught to do before.
The scientists found that Broca's area was activated in the chimps' brains after making gestures and vocalizing, but not after the rock task, signaling that this brain region is particularly tied to communication.
"Their brains are about one-third the size of humans'. But the major differences come down to ones of degree, not of kind."
We even share most of our DNA. Reportedly, the human and chimpanzee genomes differ by only 1.5 to 5 percent.
* summorized from: http://www.livescience.com

Evolution is something that no sane person can deny,but humans evolving from an under developped specie is something I personally strongly reject,call me indoctrined with blind faith or whatever.
Guys I assure you that this kind of studies do not make any valuable evidence exept the similarity that we of course admit,we are all,all the living species on earth are the creation of one creator,thus we have a lot in common,isn't that enough to justify it.

@taka: First you say that Black Winter needs to mix his faith and science and that it is possible to accept evolution and still belive in God, but than you are going to explain why there cannot be a God and why it is unlogical to believe in it. Please, be a little consistent. If you find believing in a God ridiculous, than say so, and don't say just the opposite.

Written by akatana on 18.06.2008 at 01:00

Written by Black Winter on 17.06.2008 at 23:01

Evolution is something that no sane person can deny,but humans evolving from an under developped specie is something I personally strongly reject,call me indoctrined with blind faith or whatever.
Guys I assure you that this kind of studies do not make any valuable evidence exept the similarity that we of course admit,we are all,all the living species on earth are the creation of one creator,thus we have a lot in common,isn't that enough to justify it.

I am glad to see you came to the conclusion that evolution is a fact.
I think you need to find a way to mix your faith with what science knows as a fact. Maybe you should consider that your religion in the form you believe in it is wrong. Many christians have accepted that and still believe in god.

There is no evidence for a common creator and the fact that what we know about humans does not involve a creator is enough to dismiss such a thing as god.

But let me explain to you another nice little fact that science uncovered. The human eye is very complex and we know how it evolved but during the process it did not evolve perfectly, we have what is called a blind spot(there is a point where the eye is blind but the brain corrects this error by creating an optical illusion) and so do other species who are closely related to us. The question would be why a perfect god would create us with defective eyes. Not only that but the squid whose eyes evolved separately from our own species have perfect eyes, no blind spot.

Furthermore there are hundreds of vestigial organs in humans and animals, organs that served a purpose a long time ago but now have another smaller purpose or none at all. How do you explain that by god?

in addition to what Aei Ontos have said,if we don't know the role of certain organs by now,I am sure that we will in the future,science did not stop at this point of course,there will be new discoveries that may uncover the true role of many caracteristics that we find unuseful,believing in science as one solid portion is wrong,remember that science,as we should believe in it,is something that constantly changes,that accepts doubting on it,that accepts changing its rules,the history of science is the history of correcting mistakes.

Written by akatana on 18.06.2008 at 11:19

Written by Black Winter on 18.06.2008 at 10:52

in addition to what Aei Ontos have said,if we don't know the role of certain organs by now,I am sure that we will in the future,science did not stop at this point of course,there will be new discoveries that may uncover the true role of many caracteristics that we find unuseful,believing in science as one solid portion is wrong,remember that science,as we should believe in it,is something that constantly changes,that accepts doubting on it,that accepts changing its rules,the history of science is the history of correcting mistakes.

Yes very true, science is continuously changing, but it is more refining the things than correcting them as we gain more knowledge. So the theories of science are not necessarily false but incomplete.
What Aei failed to understand is that vestigial organs are not without function but they are not used for the original purpose. Examples from biology include leg bones in snakes, eye remnants in blind cave fish, wing stubs on flightless birds and insects, etc. It is irrelevant that these organs have a function because they are imperfect for the function that they now have. Why would a perfect creator design an organ that is not optimal for the function it performs or even life-threatening in some cases. Evolution explains this.

The human appendix is a derivative of the end of the phylogenetically primitive herbivorous caecum found in our primate ancestors (Goodman et al. 1998; Shoshani 1996). The function it had was cellulose digestion. Now it does not have this function anymore and even if it would have other secondary functions it is actually more threatening to humans than beneficial.

Not only that but we can find that some genes are inactivated because the organs don't have use anymore but in some rare cases they are activated. That is why we see people born with tails, etc. We also find vestigial characters at molecular level like the L-gulano-γ-lactone oxidase gene, the gene required for Vitamin C synthesis.

do you want me to tell you why? it's because it's earthly life,it's not perfect,actually far from being perfect,if it was perfect then why should there be afterlife?This of course does not under value the creation of God,and the beauty of that creation,but I wanted to point out that the game of life is imperfect,that justifies the need for another life,the afterlife.

Written by akatana on 18.06.2008 at 14:29

I think you are mixing up two things here. Afterlife or no afterlife the fact is that if there would be a creator who created all these complex living things why would he then make mistakes like that? Not only that but if the humans were created as a species then it would be impossible for them to have the genes that allow for a tail. Still, such things exist and science knows why, because we, as descendants from other primates, have the genes to grow tails but they have been inactivated and only get reactivated in some extremely rare circumstances. Also, why would god create us with an appendix that we could live without but which is actually responsible for killing a lot of people(mostly when they did not have surgery).

Either your god is not perfect or there is no god.

The appendix,since you still insist,may seem useless,but as I told,that is what we think right now,there will be certainly more interpretations of its role,actually there is one:
the latest interpretation of the appendix role says that the appendix serves as a safe place for useful bacteria when illness flushes those bacteria from the rest of the intestines.This proposal is based on a new understanding of how the immune system supports the growth of beneficial intestinal bacteria, in combination with many well-known features of the appendix, including its architecture and its association with copious amounts of immune tissue. Such a function is expected to be useful in a culture lacking modern sanitation and healthcare practice, where diarrhea may be prevalent. Current epidemiological data show that diarrhea is one of the leading causes of death in developing countries, indicating that a role of the appendix as an aid in recovering beneficial bacteria following diarrhea may be extremely important in the absence of modern health and sanitation practices. [source : wikipedia]
Who told you that we have "tail genes" ,that's delusional,a gene mutation with another does not mean that everybody has the defected gene,it's just that the sane gene got accidently replaced by a not sane gene, just like trisomie 21, when accidently the chromosome couple 21 shows up as a triple,surprizingly it's not a new specie,it's just a sick person.

But still,you can come up with more alike questions,you could only ask the traditional question 'Why God lets people get sick and sufer?'
My God is perfect,questions might come up about the rules of this universe,that for me never brings a doubt about the reality of God,it only brings up questions that deserve a lot of thinking and that can have many answers.

Written by akatana on 18.06.2008 at 18:22

What you consider mistakes may seem so,but it still probable that there will be new reaserchs that lead to the right role of those mistakes,this is one thought.Another,is evolution,we can suppose that God created humans perfect,but then during millions of years some changes happened due to changing conditions that originated these 'mistakes'.I can not tel which is correct but either ways it's God's will.

So these scientists played with dosage of this Wnt-3a gene then supposed that the manipulation they did was the original status of the human genome?is this considered evidence?Maybe you should clarify more for me,(since sciences is not my specialty,maths are,plus,all my studies are in french) because the passage you quoted explains one thing to me,it's why mice have tails while we don't,but this invisible link between the two genes(human's and mice's) is not justified,I see no 'evidence'. You know what I think,these so called scientists are pretty much like the so called christian scientist during the dark ages,those ones tried to create an obscure scientific reality that confirms the church's sayings,while these new ones are trying to find some obscure scientific reality to prove the Abrahimic God's non existance,since they make a goal to find a link that allows them to change human evolution to an inter-species evolution.Both miss the point, if the scientific reasearch in not neutral then its results are highly doubtable.
I think all this discussion is pointless,I can not take all those hundreds of evidence you are talking about and look into them one by one,but if I suppose that they are all like these tail,appendix..things then there is no need to,I see now why Dane Train refused to enter this creation vs. evolution discussion it gets no where as long as you think every similarity is due to common ancestor while I think it's due to a common God.