Discuss us, the human race
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Original post
Posted by Lucas, 20.06.2006 - 14:39
So, let me explain the idea of this thread. You might have read some of my posts in the threads 'Over Population' & 'With or against cloning?'. If you did, you might have noticed me being real angry about our species.
My problem is, we are weak. We are stupid. Some might argue me saying that mankind has survived for the last few 1000 years, because we are so smart that we can solve our problems and think of solutions. I always think, what problem do we have actually solved, without creating 10 others?
We can cure many diseases. Yes, we can cure a few. But my question is, is that a good thing? Why are we running for death, whilst we have no idea (or at least can't agree) of what death actually is. I'm not saying we should all die at once, to find out, but I do think we should stop the fucking running. Why not accept our time of going, when it has come.
As said, in the 'Cloning' thread it was said that we are making progress. Sure we are. We have succesfully cloned a sheep, and in the near future we will probably be able to clone humans or grow bodyparts and we can use those to replace our own. I can't help to imagine us as Frankenstein's, with all different sorts off legs and stuff. Anyway, do you think this is good? My main arguement is that I believe we should follow the course of Nature, and therefore we should live as animals etc. So NO cloning for me. Yes, we will save lives with it, and call me heartless, but I still don't agree with it.
I think we are drifting further and further away from our course, the path we should take. If my world would become reality, we would all be placed back into prehistory and would just live and hunt. If my opinion, that is enough. All our machines that do the hard work for us, leaving us with more time for other things have made us decadent. We now need to philosophize about if there is a God, what road we should take and stuff like that. (Yes, I do see the irony)
So basically, do what the title says: Discuss us, the humanrace. I probably will meet some of you who disagree with me, but I'd be happy if we can discuss that.
I'm always in for a good discussion.PS: If anyone dares to say that we are discussion this through the internet, and thus through one of the main mistakes of mankind, wanting to be connected, I'm going to slap you.
I do see the irony in this, of course, and I know this may sound all a bit hypocritical because I am philosophizing too right now, but I've accepted that. I know that I cannot live up to my ideals, because they represent something I think we can never turn back too. But whatever, discuss!
| Ulven i Manden
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Ulven i Manden
Account deleted Written by Lucas on 27.12.2006 at 00:43  Yes I am...  Of course: I try to explain (briefly) why I think in this way... I like to say that we are free (theoretically) beings. Even if we get together we can't avoid reality "rules". This "rules" says that: everything born and die... peace is only war-pause... some people do this - other do that ("this" doesn't equal "that")... There are many "rules" I don't (can't) want to mention all. But what is the matter: all this "rules" make something like DESTINY. We can't fight this "rules". They are permanent. They create our world/universe. "Rules" could change only in one situation: end of this world/universe. Until this happen - we follow the "dark" path of desires, passions, thoughts... Path of our DESTINY. Path which is finished by death of everything... People theoretically knows what they should do. They think that they can make some good decisions. They also think that they can create this decisions. But in fact they do what they MUST do. They choose but they are always choose the same things. We can try change the world but we can't change something which is foundation of it all. This foundations are describeing how our world works. We are always go in one direction. Our instinct direct our lives not mind. P. S. I am sure that I forgot write about something... well... until next time (post)... 
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Humans are wisest of all beings..... everyone of us know this. I'd like to say sth on misanthropy. In fact I am not clear in what way is misanthropy practised. Well, in what way do misanthropes hate mankind? Just distrusting them or hating their sight and hence isolating themselves from rest of the humans or in what way? A misanthrope himself is a human, and if he hates humans so much, then why doesn't he start by putting an end to his own physical existence? This earth belongs to every living beings, and they have equal right in this earth as we humans have, but nowadays we hear of endangered wildlifes and poaching and other activities similar to these. Also, humans have developed fatal weapons, and are responsible for various environmental problems. This is not good. But despising entire human race just because of this would be a lame reason. This happens due to the ignorance of certain people; people who hate mankind probably do it due to mans behaviour towards nature, but the humans in the ancient and medieval world respected nature (through pagan religions). My opinion is, humans should always remain close to nature, and their decline will begin the day they become away from nature (gradually). The art, architecture, myths, philosophy, and social structure made by humans in the past is really worthy of appreaciation, and fascinating. I would conclude by saying that humans should remain close to anture and not forget that every beings have equal right on this earth.
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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Oh, I meant 'nature', not 'anture' ,a spelling mistake in the last line.
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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P.S. I agree with Nervel. Humans have never solved a problem without creating 10 others. IMO, the life led by humans in the ancient times was the best, because of pagan beliefs. Today's humans try to harness nature(which results in environmental disorders,pollution, diseases and ultimately misery), so they are weaker; ancient humans let themselves be harnessed by nature, as a result they, taking nature as an open book, learnt much from it; became mentally and physically healthy, and strong.
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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specially, @Nervel, Well, I'd like to explain why I call our ancestors 'true' humans. The reasons why I say this are: --Today's humans are getting farther from nature than yesterday's humans, as mentioned above. --today's humans seem to have forgotten that this earth belongs to other living beings as well(just look at how many animals are endangered); in ancient world, the rate of killing animals wasn't certainly as high as it is today. --Just look at the pollution and environmental disorders brought my human activities today, and compare it to the ancient world. --One might argue "look at the developement today", but if this is what development is, then I DON'T need it; ancient lifestyle was much better. Ther weren't much diseases, developmental infrastructures devoloped then were sufficient. --Compare the lifestyle of humans of today and ancient humans: today's humans seem to have lost feeling of social cooperation. For example, one neighbour doesn't care about other neighbours. Also, the lifestyle is getting more and more hectic. --look at the wars taking place today and yesterday(ancient world). Today wars are often waged to test weapons (USA seems to engage in war unnecessarily just to experiment its new sophisticated weapons, fighter planes etc.) or due to communal and racial reasons and civil wars and revolts are more common; in ancient world, humans battled forprotection and expansion of territories. conclusion: today's humans fight for their selfish motives and trifles, whereas ancient (or even medieval) humans fought for their land's interest and welfare. --Today, in the name of globalization, people are forgetting their own culture, and the respect for their own nation is also decreasing. They're mixing up with foreigners too much, and their own identity is on the verge of gradual fade. --The gap between the rich and the poor is increasing even more, due to industrial development. The rich get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. --Politics and democracy of today's world is just contributing to the increase in conflicts and corruption (maybe not in all countries, but in most). --The criminal activities and 'terrorism' is more in today's world than in yesterday's world. Well, I will post some more later as I remember them....
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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Posts: 13427 Written by Paganblood on 16.01.2007 at 07:43 Are we? Maybe we are giving such a big brain to explore the world around us and develop, but does this mean it is unnatural? For example, maybe the car (or any other technological development) is unnatural in itself, but the process of inventing that same car is one of our natural virtues. Quote: Yes, we pollute the earth. But as Skald stated somewhere in this thread: 'What is the REAL waste? Using up energy from the earth which is already there or neglecting it?' However, we could of course try to limit this pollution to the very least necessary, but that is not the main question in this argument, IMO. Quote: Not much diseases? But if a disease would break out, the entire tribe would be dead. Is that better than lots of diseases who are often cured? Quote: Or fought because they were forced to by their king? At least now, you can sign up for the army if that is your own choice. Quote: This is something dangerous to state, I think. People are forgetting their own culture, or are they finally getting tolerant towards other cultures? Quote: Please explain why and how on those last two. I have left some of your arguments out, if I did that, I agreed with them.[
---- SLUDGE. DOOM. DEATH. Wait, what?  "The reason I'm running for president is because I can't be Bruce Springsteen." - Barack Obama
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(I'm in a hurry, so I'll post any missed out explanations/arguments later, ok?  )--yes, I believe we are getting away from nature; today's lifestyle is getting more and more hectic (forget the holidays, we don't even get proper holidays), and the urban lifestyle (big buildings, crowd, over-sophisticated technology etc.) is taking us away from natural things. Using human intelligence to invent something doesn't always mean 'taking away from nature'. --I don't know about other regions, but in this region (in the ancient world), medicine was very developed, and curing diseases wasn't big problem. This Ayurvedic technique of treatment(based on natural herbs) is scientific and is still popular today. Even if a plague spread today, it would be difficult to control it (remember, many of the countries are underdeveloped) although it would be slighlty smaller challenge than in ancient world. --revolts and wars within the country(for the sake of political powers, sought even by 'anti-national' elements) are increasing nowadays... Well, i'll go now, more explanation later...... Keep in touch until then.
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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I'll wait and reply after you're return.
---- SLUDGE. DOOM. DEATH. Wait, what? "The reason I'm running for president is because I can't be Bruce Springsteen." - Barack Obama
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A link :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6057734.stm to an article(news?, a short one anyway) We, humans of today, may not seem far from our ancient/medieval ancestors, but every human activities will add together and eventually take humans far away from their original state, thus justifying the statement 'our ancestors were true humans' (you may refer to my first post here and the link above, which is an article titled 'Human species may branch into two"). -- I mentioned about pollution to point out to the fact how human activities are not balancing with nature as they used to, and thus resulting into pollution, ecological imbalance etc.. -- When Humans make many 'inventions', gradually, they get dependent on it and may be unable to adjust without it. This will eventually disable humans from adjusting to nature or using their own capability (for example, excessive use of calculators may reduce the ability to do mental calculations) -- I consider unneccessary elements (which might harm the environment as well) waste although Skald's statement 'What is the REAL waste? Using up energy from the earth which is already there or neglecting it?' is quite true (negleting the resources is also wastage,but in completely different sense) --refer to my above post --access to arms and the trend to build a powerful rebel army is increasing nowadays (this army is likely to cause great truble and suffering to public life whether it succeeds or not). One may be able to sign up for the side he supports, but the question is , what is the war/battle for? -- Increasing population is the cause behind the problems created by humanity, and this is the factor that can lead humanity to their own decline, IMO Many ideas are evolving with the increasing popultion, more selfish motives are increasing too, and to fulfill these, various politicians may try to brainwash the public with their self-created ideology, which might be dangerous to the interest of their own country (this is what is happening in our country now). The same is the reason behind the increase of the criminal/terrorist activities. competition to survive is getting tougher as a result of increasing population, which might increase difficulty in gaining income, which is certainly the main cause behind the increase of many criminal activities. The society of today is getting more and more money-minded (this is what it seems to be), politicians are likely to be 'purchased' by foreign power which might increase 'pain' to the citizens (this is happening in Nepal right now) --In the name of freedom, people are likely to become 'astray' (for example, the concept of anarchism, abd best example is the current situation of our country, people are dividing racially and acting like anarchists, government is 'purchased' by foreign powers, so it doesn't control the situation.
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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Posts: 1194 Written by Lucas on 18.01.2007 at 17:40 your wait is over, reply to both (and the above one, if you're interested, but refer to it once) my posts.
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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Posts: 13427 Written by Paganblood on 08.02.2007 at 16:10 About the article, an interesting idea, but I'll have to see if it comes true first. Unfortunatly, I wont. You see, we can all make such predictions, but this one is not really build upon some strong 'evidence', or am I missing something?
---- SLUDGE. DOOM. DEATH. Wait, what? "The reason I'm running for president is because I can't be Bruce Springsteen." - Barack Obama
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Posts: 1194 Written by Lucas on 19.02.2007 at 16:36 That prediction is based on the theory of organic evolution, a part of which states that, "..a long course of development (in the organisms)is brought due to gradual change in the environment" and also based on Darwin's theory of 'origin of species' which, in short, states that, "Because of variation in an organism which occurs in an organism, every organism is slightly different from its parent, and after a long courrse of time, these variations sum up to make an organism quite different from its parents." and these variations occur to to changing environment (and mutation as well, but that's not related here). change in human lifestyle is also a part of the environment in which a human lives. For example, the physical activities, food habits, hygiene etc. have direct impact on the overall mental and physical developement... just look at how the gap between poor and the rich is increasing nowadays.. in your country(and some other developed countries) this may not be a serious problem, but in other developing countries, this propblem is increasing, i.e., the poor remains poor or becomes poorer and the richer remains richer..
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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Posts: 13427 Written by Paganblood on 20.02.2007 at 12:36 Yes, I know what Darwin stated. But how can that writer be sure that we will look like the humans he described, if there are so many things that influence us? You see what I mean? There are so many influences and thus so many different 'kinds' of humans we can become, that I find it hard to believe that we will turn out exactly like he stated.
---- SLUDGE. DOOM. DEATH. Wait, what? "The reason I'm running for president is because I can't be Bruce Springsteen." - Barack Obama
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Posts: 1194 Written by Lucas on 20.02.2007 at 14:40 That might be... we don't know the future so we can't rely on it 100%. Anyway, that's based on the facctors we know today. In future, a new turn can come in human life, which might make this prediction untrue or different.
---- that which shines without names and forms...
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| darksymphony
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I do agree with you, why run away from death if we all are going to die anyways, why create medicines to make us live longer and therefore leave our beloved planed overpopulated, creating new desieses, destroying our enviroment. Whats the fucking point of us living longer? Do we really want to live a long live????? Why cant we just die like all the other living things do. Cloning is another stupid and point less skill that us, stupid humans, are developing "look what I can do, I can copy myself over and over again just like a fucking bacteria," yeah! thats what humans really are! Bacterias, our planet's cancer. The only type of animal that like to kill, and that acctually have pleasure by doing so. We consider ourselves as "the most developed kind of animal" but have been ruling this planed for less than half a million years! Compare that with the "past" rulers. Ok I just wrote down what I was thinking without editing anything, why should we edit staff after all, to make it more appeling? to make others think that we are more developed, and therefore smarter..... Well fuck that
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Yes, I want to live a long life, I love life and myself. Maybe I'm not that good for my beloved planet, but when I'm dead I'm dead and can't therefore no longer feel for the planet. Better to live and try to save the planet than die to save the planet.
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Posts: 1487 Written by Lucas on 16.01.2007 at 21:54 Sorry to jump in out of nowhere, but I feel like saying that it is absurd to suggest that ancient people were in some way "superior" to modern people because they didn't have gnarly technology/production. If they had the means to do what we do now, you can be damn sure that they'd do it, and do it a lot.
---- "Summoned By Words Never Spoken Before..."
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Posts: 13427 Written by Hyvaarin on 01.07.2007 at 16:45 Reading my first post again, I can say my opinions have changed on matters like these. Overall, my view on things has become more 'positive'. So argumenting against you is a bit 'fake'. Though, for the sake of argument. People from the ancient times were physically much stronger. With medicines and stuff like that, we might be able to reach 2/3/4 times their age, but without it, we'd have a serious hard time reaching their 'usual' age. At least, that's what I think.
---- SLUDGE. DOOM. DEATH. Wait, what? "The reason I'm running for president is because I can't be Bruce Springsteen." - Barack Obama
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| Pinusar
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everything was created for a purpose to do certain things, if this isnt wat we r meant to do, then y r we doing it? like with global warming, we rnt the only things on our planet that is contributing to it, nor with cloning, diseases do it to themselves to spread, so y not us
---- FRACTALS!!!!! 
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Posts: 13427 Written by Fuath on 17.10.2007 at 12:17 Because we haven't agreed on a global suicide yet?
---- SLUDGE. DOOM. DEATH. Wait, what? "The reason I'm running for president is because I can't be Bruce Springsteen." - Barack Obama
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Posts: 650 Written by Lucas on 17.10.2007 at 21:14 because suicide creates more problems then its fixes
---- FRACTALS!!!!!
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| rageing atheist
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y would we be here for no reason? the food chain, everything plays a key part, to keep everything else alive and in the right numbers. take away one of these things and everything breaks down. add more of these things, and others will thin out. it is purely a matter of opinion as to wat the human race is here for, but i beleive that we are here to do wat we were always here to do; evolve and advance i admit that we have done wrong in some cases,and are stil doing wrong, but that is not all of us, look at those with degrees in medicine, to help people, like drs and vets if cloning is such a problem, then i ask y isnt eating meat?, cloning can be for sustainability, to keep people alive, eating meat is killing an innocent animal for the same reason, yet there is no problem eating animals
---- FRACTALS!!!!!
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After reading this thread it is so clear that so many people see man kind as some type of failure, mistake, or even joke. We have wars, genocide, rape, murder, thievery, torture, prejudice and dozens of others things ruining our very existence. But one thing we also have is love. At times I am so much more surprised by the amazing and awesome amounts of love I see from than I am by the evil actions of mankind. I want to keep this short, but what do I think of the human race? One word: potential.
---- (space for rent)
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Posts: 547 Written by Dane Train on 21.10.2007 at 01:10 i don't look at our race like a joke or failure. if you think about it, every species fights to survive. the difference between humans and anything else are the logical and cognitive capabilities we possess. and when you add that with the natural instinct of survival, you get more negative outcomes than positive; the things you mentioned, as well as deception and greed. and yeah, we have potential. technically, our species is still very young when you look at it on a chronological scale. we've made amazing progress in just the last two centuries, but at the same time we've taken a lot of steps backward as well...all based on our cognitive and logical abilities.
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I think it is a plague. It is all the characteristics of it. Think about it.
---- Suddenly........ Life has new meaning
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Posts: 8902 Written by villain on 21.10.2007 at 21:09 Ok, I thought about it. Still don't see how we are a plague. Could you please explain how?
---- (space for rent)
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Posts: 547 Written by villain on 21.10.2007 at 21:09 a plague is a widespread affliction, calamity, or evil. yeah, we're doing a lot of stupid shit, but at the same time some of us are trying to fix it. if there's two different sides to the effects we're having on the planet and other species, we couldn't possibly consider ourselves as such. i've never heard of a plague that killed our race and helped it at the same time.
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