Islam

dinosaurs?what about them?
if you chose to consider it that way,it's your choice,but I must remind you that you are still considering this from the same wrong perspective.
Are you making claims of someone who thinks that God exists,that he created him but then that he deserves no worship because he is 'needy'?

As Islam claims that god ain't 'needy' (!), my question is that why does he have created me?? simple as that.

Written by Mosquiller on 18.08.2008 at 00:20

As Islam claims that god ain't 'needy' (!), my question is that why does he have created me?? simple as that.

In the Quran,there's is a passage that says that humans are created to worship God,in another passage,answering the angels that asked Him why he would create someone that sheds blood in earth while they already worship him,said"I know what you don't know",other than that I can honestly tell you that I don't know at all,why exactly,the logic and ultimate reason for creation.

Written by Black Winter on 14.08.2008 at 19:55

To foresee something is in no way making it happen

by a literal shallow look, it seems so BUT from a more profound perspective, somehow it does. take the example of Ms A.

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you cannot make a conclusion that Islam spread by violence and forcing only based on what you claim happened in persia,simply because there is a lot of other examples that prove you wrong.

just one example is enough to prove islam DID spread by sword and that example is Persia. it's not nessary to be the same for other countries that muslims entered.
to my great surprize you still use the word "claim" despite...all...those...historical...evidences!?!?

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God is needy?I don't think so,the same Idea has been implicitly mentionned thousands of years ago,in the Quran,God really was not in need for humans because there was already angels to worship him and everything,I don't understand why people are still on road to 'decoding' God with pre-aquired wrong references?what you seem to know about rules of this universe may not apply well on God.

then why did God ever bothered to create us?
it's highly emphasized that it was for a grand and worthy reason, what is that? being good? worshipping god? being tested?
i remember some explainations from highschool's Fuckin theology books, they were nohing but non-sense. i'm aware of that response to the angels but in other parts of Quran it seems that God himself is shocked and kind of surprized by his own creation's behavior for example: "can't the human kind see how we created 'em and now is our obvious foe?"

once in Quran it's said "God said: be, and there was" and once it's said "God created the skies and earth in 6 days"
IF it's "be and there was" then why did it take God 6 days/periods/whatsoever to create? it should've happend...lets say...in a blink of an eye.
and what is that "we"? in Quran (some parts) God refers to Himself as "we".
and what do you think about the term "7 skies" ? don't you think it's rooted in an old myth?
what about the Jinn? isn't it kind of funny and mythical?

what about a game? gets back to "possible answers"...

[black winter] ---> it means: black winter mode on

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 18.08.2008 at 14:59

by a literal shallow look, it seems so BUT from a more profound perspective, somehow it does. take the example of Ms A.

i'll (this "i" refers to you ) quote your (this "you" refers to myself along with other "you"S in this post ) question here to respond:

Quote:

lets assume you did not respond cos i didn't make my point clear, ok, i'll try to explain my point clear enough but
plz read carefully...
God is said to be omniscient, right? then as you mentioned he knows who goes to hell/heaven even BEFOR they are born. lets take the example of that woman who was sent to hell for her misbehaviour towards that cat and call her Ms A. God knows everything including every change, every thought for change, every chance for change,
every possibility for change, every decision for change and finally every attempt for change, therefore his knowledge doesn't change itself, cos if it changes it means there was something, a change, that he was unable to forsee. so if we take a snapshot of what God forsees befor Ms A's birth, this snapshot won't change during Ms A's life, suppose in that snapshot Ms A mistreated that cat at the age of 30...
ok, Ms A is born, grown up is now in her 30 at the moment just befor that behaviour, here we go:
Q- if at this moment we take another snapshot of what God forsees, is this the same as the first one?
- if yes, then she has no chance for change, then she is not free.
- if no, then these two snapshots taken in different times of Ms A's life differ and therefore God is not omniscient due to the reasons mentioned above.
lets see the same question in another way:
Q- is there any chance for her to not to do that?
- if there is, then God is not omnisient.
- if there is not, then she is not free.

you terribly fail to understand God's attributes actually.
first you obviously neglect a very important concept here which is (let's suppose it was not deliberate):
God is beyond "time and space" there's no past/present/future, the sequence of events are meaningless for God.
there's also no "befor/after/concurrent".
therefore there's no 2 snapshots and no difference in "time" BEFORE and AFTER Ms A's birth for God, they are all equall in His eyes.
plus this that you again refuse to bring God's omniscience totally into account, God is omniscient so he had forseed every possible change, IF there WAS any POSSIBILITY for Ms A changing her decision, God would HAVE forseed that. it means that all those possibilities had been considered in the final result.
and as God is not bound to TIME, your questions are baseless.


[/black winter] ---> it means: black winter mode off

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 18.08.2008 at 15:14

[black winter] ---> it means: black winter mode on
you terribly fail to understand God's attributes actually.
first you obviously neglect a very important concept here which is (let's suppose it was not deliberate):
God is beyond "time and space" there's no past/present/future, the sequence of events are meaningless for God.
there's also no "befor/after/concurrent".
therefore there's no 2 snapshots and no difference in "time" BEFORE and AFTER Ms A's birth for God, they are all equall in His eyes.
plus this that you again refuse to bring God's omniscient totally into account, God is omniscient so he had forseed every possible change, IF there WAS any POSSIBILITY for Ms A changing her decision, God would
HAVE forseed that. it means that all those possibilities had been considered in the final result.
and as God is not bound to TIME, your questions are baseless.


[/black winter] ---> it means: black winter mode off

right, but the idea that God is not restricted to "time/space" does not change anything in this argument, why? cos this scenario has 2 sides, one is God and the other is US.
we ARE strongly limited to "time/space".
plus this that you try to scape from responding by bringing up an abstract notion to whom you can assign any logically impssible attribute WHILE the main part of that question is rooted in REALITY and real life.
come DOWN TO EARTH, then you can observably see the contradiction between "God's omniscient" and "our TOTAL freedom of choices".
the problem is not WHEN or HOW god foretells an event BUT how WE are AFFECTED.
by whatever process, God fortold that Ms A's misbehaviour towardds that cat made her end up in hell, right?
and for us as "time bound" beings, TOTAL freedom means:
there are at least 2 choices (one right and one wrong) for her and she has equall chance of selecting any of 'em.
each with probability of 0.5 otherwise she is not totally free and speaking of punishment is unfair.
now what do you think is the answer to those questions?

another welknown problem arising from God's omniscient is that: why he tests us while he knows everything beforehand.
but i don't wish to open a debate over this while the other is still in progress...


all right, your turn...

okay triple poster it was very special,I liked my virtual post:
okay let's think about it this way,let's take from God his omniscience,and let's just make him a being that creates,and just watches what is to occures with no previous idea of what is going to happen,allright?and now God is assisting to the entire human history,and here the moment when miss A had a cat under her possession,God knows nothing,the woman has entirely free will and has equally probable options,she took the decision to torture the cat,and that's it,let's assume now that God finished watching all those events and choices,and now he rewinds the tape,he starts it all over again,everything that happens is what God already seen before it's nothing new for him,now all that set is about is simplifying the reality by dissociating two of of it's parts and making them seem like two worlds,the first is reality,the second is a replay,where we are in the replay,but truth is,when we give back to God his omniscience, that there is only one world,where we be,and the foreseeing thing,is a God thing.

And about testing,if we did not be,we were not tested what would God know about?how would he know about something that will not happen,so if this testing was not to happen,God would've known nothing,and this is one thing,we as humans CAN understand.

Written by Black Winter on 18.08.2008 at 00:46

In the Quran,there's is a passage that says that humans are created to worship God,in another passage,answering the angels that asked Him why he would create someone that sheds blood in earth while they already worship him,said"I know what you don't know",other than that I can honestly tell you that I don't know at all,why exactly,the logic and ultimate reason for creation.

1. You don't know what will happen to animals in afterlife,
2. you don't know what will happen to humans in the next world,
3. you don't know why god has created us,

the religion of doubt and fear.

ok, since what you're saying is lame and retarded, I will provide you with something else! :

1. Nothing special will happen to animals because no after-life exists.
2. For humans, same as above.
3. God doesn't exist. I AM MY OWN GOD.

Written by Mosquiller on 19.08.2008 at 00:46

Written by Black Winter on 18.08.2008 at 00:46

In the Quran,there's is a passage that says that humans are created to worship God,in another passage,answering the angels that asked Him why he would create someone that sheds blood in earth while they already worship him,said"I know what you don't know",other than that I can honestly tell you that I don't know at all,why exactly,the logic and ultimate reason for creation.

1. You don't know what will happen to animals in afterlife,
2. you don't know what will happen to humans in the next world,
3. you don't know why god has created us,

the religion of doubt and fear.

ok, since what you're saying is lame and retarded, I will provide you with something else! :

1. Nothing special will happen to animals because no after-life exists.
2. For humans, same as above.
3. God doesn't exist. I AM MY OWN GOD.

I don't know what will happen to humans??!!?everytime I try to take you seriously I get disappionted,are you drunk again baby?

Okay, I better say you know but not exactly.

you remember I said some shit about the old man and a child ?
now: imagine a mother and his son die in an accident,
they will pass the armageddon and get their ticket for heaven.
how long will they live there?? forever?! what does that mean 'forever' ??
won't ppl get tired?

Written by Black Winter on 18.08.2008 at 20:32

okay let's think about it this way,let's take from God his omniscience,and let's just make him a being that creates,and just watches what is to occures with no previous idea of what is going to happen,allright?and now God is assisting to the entire human history,and here the moment when miss A had a cat under her possession,God knows nothing,the woman has entirely free will and has equally probable options,she took the decision to torture the cat,and that's it,let's assume now that God finished watching all those events and choices,and now he rewinds the tape,he starts it all over again,everything that happens is what God already seen before it's nothing new for him,now all that set is about is simplifying the reality by dissociating two of of it's parts and making them seem like two worlds,the first is reality,the second is a replay,where we are in the replay,but truth is,when we give back to God his omniscience, that there is only one world,where we be,and the foreseeing thing,is a God thing.

there are 3 problems here:
I. you're focusing on the process by which god forsees instead of the concequences.
II. your scenario is reversing the story, it consists of 2 parts: reality and replay. its sequence is:
1.recording the reality
2.replaying

and if we(our real life) are in the replay part, when did the reality ever happened to be recorded?
III. when god is recording the tape, it seems that he his taping the real life but later you say our real life is on the replay?!?!

Quote:

And about testing,if we did not be,we were not tested what would God know about?how would he know about something that will not happen,so if this testing was not to happen,God would've known nothing,and this is one thing,we as humans CAN understand.

i didn't get your point about testing...so correct me if i'm wrong, you say God HAS TO test us to KNOW our decisions when we are in different situations, right?
i've heard something: the result of that test is not supposed to inform god but US, we are being tested so on judgement day there's no chance of vindication for ppl by saying "if/may/might/possibly/likely/..." , what do you think about this?

BTW,
you know, Quran is full of unnecessary teachings and ideas for example it tells ppl how to talk to Muhammed or to knock the door before they enter his house or that children shouldn't enter their parents room without permissionn or Muhammed is an exception in the limitation of 4 wifes and can go furthur or how his wifes should speak/behave
or that Jinns are made of fire ...
BUT dosen't explain important issues in details JUST obscure indications which can be INTERPRETED and are mostly nothing new.
i just see no reason why god speaks of CAMEL as an evidance for him being the creator??!!?? or why he speaks of 7 skies as an evidance while it's obviously wrong and is rooted in old myths.
and (as said before) why it took him 6 days/periods to create while we see in Quran "God says be, and there is" or why he refers to himself with "we" sometimes...

there's no answer to ÆSHMA 's question about animals in Quran WHILE obviously we are just a tiny part of a very very large world, there are 2-100 million different species on earth and we are just ONE of them, what about the rest?
there are planets we're totally sure an intelligent life hasen't evolved in, why did God created them too?
earth alone was enough for God's purpose which seems to be a temporary place for humans to be tested.
i've asked Aei Ontos before, he said that he thinks God creats cos he is very creative and loves creating things.
and still i have no idea of this creation's goal...
everytime i think about "creationism vs. evolution" i can't really understand why ppl refuse to accept evolution as the TRUE answer to our existance and adamantly persist on creation.


Quran is full of "don't you seeS" / "don't you thinkS" , ok...we do...and the result is not what Quran expects us to come to...

"everytime i think about "creationism vs. evolution" i can't really understand why ppl refuse to accept evolution as the TRUE answer to our existance and adamantly persist on creation."

Well I haven't read the whole thing but I don't actually understand what do you mean by evolution is the answer to our existance. I mean things "evolute" that's right but don't they have to "evolute" from something?what's the origin of things before they started to evolute?
sorry if this was discussed before, the thread is just too long for me to read

Written by akatana on 20.08.2008 at 11:37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozbFerzjkz4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhWds7djuWo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg&feature=related

i couldn't watch 'em.
damn this low bandwidth here...

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 19.08.2008 at 12:55


there are 3 problems here:
I. you're focusing on the process by which god forsees instead of the concequences.
II. your scenario is reversing the story, it consists of 2 parts: reality and replay. its sequence is:
1.recording the reality
2.replaying

and if we(our real life) are in the replay part, when did the reality ever happened to be recorded?
III. when god is recording the tape, it seems that he his taping the real life but later you say our real life is on the replay?!?!

I. I focus on the process and not about the consequences because once we try to understand the process we see that it does not have any consequences at all on people's choices
II.my scenario is totally wrong,it's just an attempt to simulate reality,in the scenario,our real lives did already happen and been recorded,and now,we are put in the exact same conditions to reproduce exactly the exact old tape,this scenario is just a lower example of how would some one know what is going to happen without affecting it.
III.that also is an atttempt to make a transition between the scenario and reality,this transition consists of changing the task of recording to the character of omniscience which we consider from two different perspectives:
-for God : changing our real life from the currently non existant tape to the to the replay tape which becomes the only tape and gets renamed as 'live tape'
-for us : we have one life which is happening right now

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 19.08.2008 at 12:55

i didn't get your point about testing...so correct me if i'm wrong, you say God HAS TO test us to KNOW our decisions when we are in different situations, right?
i've heard something: the result of that test is not supposed to inform god but US, we are being tested so on judgement day there's no chance of vindication for ppl by saying "if/may/might/possibly/likely/..." , what do you think about this?

I think it's a very possible and widely accepted explanation,to show that verdicts are justified,but logically,let's take the example of a person,God knows in advance that this woman will commit a certain act in a certain time,that means from our perspective that this person must exist to accomplish it,so if He foresees something it must happen otherwise the forecast would be wrong,I think about it as God first decides to create the person,then sees what his life is will turn to,so if the creation is not to happen,the forecast is also not to happen.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 19.08.2008 at 12:55

BTW,
you know, Quran is full of unnecessary teachings and ideas for example it tells ppl how to talk to Muhammed or to knock the door before they enter his house or that children shouldn't enter their parents room without permissionn or Muhammed is an exception in the limitation of 4 wifes and can go furthur or how his wifes should speak/behave
or that Jinns are made of fire ...

some passages in the Quran do not represent teachings of course,it's not a constitution,nor a history book,those passages can be considered just informative

Quote:

BUT dosen't explain important issues in details JUST obscure indications which can be INTERPRETED and are mostly nothing new.

you can always mention examples,but I should remind that Islam is not just the Quran,the Quran is the first source, many things are not detailed in the quran,that's why we give the importance in second place to the Sunna,it presents more details,because a fundamental issue like prayer for example is barely mentionned in the Quran,but the sunna it is detailed.

Quote:

i just see no reason why god speaks of CAMEL as an evidance for him being the creator??!!?? or why he speaks of 7 skies as an evidance while it's obviously wrong and is rooted in old myths.

again it would be better if you precise which passages are you talking about(about camels)
about 7 skies,there is no indication that it means layers of the skies,some people tried to explain it so but it's not probable espatially that most trusted scientists consider only 5 layers,or 8 layers,but,are telling me that you accept the interpretation of this verse as scientific,while there are about 20 other authentic scientific indications in the Quran that you refuse to see?

Quote:

and (as said before) why it took him 6 days/periods to create while we see in Quran "God says be, and there is" or why he refers to himself with "we" sometimes...

an interesting point,this issue has been discussed by great muslim philosophers and thinkers a long time ago,and they gave many points about it,what I prefer of them is the saying that God could've created this universe instantly,but he prefered not to,because he wanted to teach us a great value,that is that one should take his time to make a good work free of mistakes even if he is sure of his capability,because creating the universe instantly would be a greater display of power,while creating them in 6 days is a greater display of wisdom,God wanted us to see more his wisdom.

Quote:

there's no answer to ÆSHMA 's question about animals in Quran WHILE obviously we are just a tiny part of a very very large world, there are 2-100 million different species on earth and we are just ONE of them, what about the rest?

The Quran is a book sent to humans and not animals and plants,those do not have the faculty of thinking although there are some ideas about animals like the one I mentionned before that they will be gathered with humans the judgement day.

Quote:

there are planets we're totally sure an intelligent life hasen't evolved in, why did God created them too?
earth alone was enough for God's purpose which seems to be a temporary place for humans to be tested.
i've asked Aei Ontos before, he said that he thinks God creats cos he is very creative and loves creating things.

maybe because he is powerful and those planets are a display of that
'god loves creating things' I think this is huminizing God a lot

Quote:

and still i have no idea of this creation's goal...
everytime i think about "creationism vs. evolution" i can't really understand why ppl refuse to accept evolution as the TRUE answer to our existance and adamantly persist on creation.

Quran is full of "don't you seeS" / "don't you thinkS" , ok...we do...and the result is not what Quran expects us to come to...

Evolution does not explain existance at all and does not give any acceptable evidence as far as I've seen about the origin of species,let natural selection explain to me why this universe is so beautiful?why nature is so beautiful?
yes the Quran is full of "don't you seeS" and "don't you thinkS" because it's the center of the message,it is necessary to think in order to see the wisdom behind the teachings of Islam.

Written by akatana on 22.08.2008 at 01:18

Written by Black Winter on 22.08.2008 at 00:27

Evolution does not explain existance at all and does not give any acceptable evidence as far as I've seen about the origin of species,let natural selection explain to me why this universe is so beautiful?why nature is so beautiful?

Evolution does not explain the origin of species as I wrote just two posts above, evolution explains the diversity of species. The origin of life is explained by abiogenesis.

As far as I can see you either have never really read serious material about evolution or you ignore it because it does not agree with your religious views. Let me give you a news flash, since 100 years there has been tons of evidence. In hundred years the theory of evolution has been subjected to change but only to the degree that minor things were added in order to explain every detail of how species evolve. Every day new evidence from independent scientific fields comes up that supports evolution, like chemistry, genetics, biology, physics ... It is always amazing to me that people like you are against what scientists have to say about evolution but yet you trust just about everything else that science says and that includes things that scientists have only been able to do because evolution is true, like genetic tests and medicine tested on genetically similar primates before given to humans.

Do you not believe in gravity? It's the same scientific principles that stipulated the theory of gravity that gave us also evolution. Do you actually know what evolution is? Are you an expert in it to be able to doubt what hundreds of thousand scientists discovered who spent their life learning and studying and who are a great deal more intelligent than you an me? The same scientists who came up with cures for diseases and computers and all the luxury and benefits we enjoy. And you have the audacity to question them on evolution just because it does not agree with what you think that your imaginary friend in the sky has done? It is just ignorance at it's highest.

I tried several times to explain evolution to you and I will do so again if you want me to.

The universe is beautiful? Obviously you have never been to sulfur mines or mud volcanoes. Have you seen the beauty of pompeii when volcanic eruption petrified living beings instantly under hot lava? The beauty of the universe? Obviously you think that the explosion of a dying star is really bright with colors and shiny. Well it isn't, it's just a technique that they use to bring out details in cosmic events. They don't really photograph a dying star or a quasar, they shoot different types of radiation at it and then color the reflected waves in different colors to see the differences in materials. A cosmic explosion besides being a catastrophic event that would destroy everything in our solar system if it would happen in our proximity is not really that beautiful.

Nature is beautiful? Where? Nature is awful in our understanding of beauty. Constant killings, race for survival, the sheer brutality of nature is not what we as humans see as beautiful.

And by the way, what does evolution have to do with your subjective perception of what is beautiful in natural processes.
Evolution is only concerned with the change in allele frequency in a population. In my view a snowflake is beautiful, the perfect alignment of the ice crystals, yet a snowflake is not made by god it is made naturally by entirely physical processes. Does that mean that physics is wrong because I personally find snowflakes to be beautiful?

Please, argue all you want about islam and your imaginary bronze-age superstitions but leave science out of it, and stop questioning facts about the world just because you are ignorant to them.

lol I knew that will drag you,because I wanted some update of my poor scientific data base,yes biology is not my field but I have studied it for a couple of years,so I am curious to see some of those tons of evidence that hundreds of thousands of scientists have approved,and as I have told you before even if all the world says that something is true I will not accept it until they prove it to me,cos sir,I don't think that those people are 'more intelligent than me',this type of sayings led to many lies to become facts in the history of humanity,'scientists said so'..right.those who believe in evolution as the explanation of the diversity of the universe do because they think that it will make them look open minded,see the topic of evolution vs creationism to see that,I will not accept evolution like the hypocrite mob without being persuaded to feel that I really belong to this age and that I have a scientific mind.I personally have nothing against evolution as an explanation of evolution,but saying that all the species came from one ancestor,and that evolution in the molecular scale led to macro evolution in 14 billion years is something I deeply doubt.yes,14 bilion years is not enough for such thing.
beauty of the universe,you failed to understand what I was talking about,I proposed one question,why wild nature is beautiful?don't tell me mine and cruelty of nature what does that to do with anything?if everything evolved and was selected by the mechanism of natural selection why do I find that most creatures and ecosystems of this earth is beautiful?is there a reason?and please don't bring me gay examples of ugly animals.
So why don't you select for me like 5 of those tons of overwhelming evidence,like the top freaking overwhelming ones that prove some species evolved from other species,and let's see them in calm.

I did not need you to explain to me what evolution is,and I did not expect you to answer me with this stock of useless information,because for example,when you tallk about fossiles,a picture for me is more useful than a hundred lines,all of this post does not come to the importance of the post about the retro viruses,I just asked for some well developped ideas,like one idea from each field I am sure you do not need to go through your 'millions of papers' for that.
but I will tell you again to avoid wasting time,I do not refuse most of the researches but I refuse their bizarre conclusions.
you can also skip this and tell me how micro evolution leads to macro evolution in 14 billion years

Written by Black Winter on 22.08.2008 at 00:27

I. I focus on the process and not about the consequences because once we try to understand the process we see that it does not have any consequences at all on people's choices
II.my scenario is totally wrong,it's just an attempt to simulate reality,in the scenario,our real lives did already happen and been recorded,and now,we are put in the exact same conditions to reproduce exactly the exact old tape,this scenario is just a lower example of how would some one know what is going to happen without affecting it.
III.that also is an atttempt to make a transition between the scenario and reality,this transition consists of changing the task of recording to the character of omniscience which we consider from two different perspectives:
-for God : changing our real life from the currently non existant tape to the to the replay tape which becomes the only tape and gets renamed as 'live tape'
-for us : we have one life which is happening right now

pewfffffffffffffffffffff...after passing a full circle we are on the start point again. your explaination is senseless and even contradicts itself so i dare to insist: God's omniscience affects indivisuals freedom.

lets go far back to story of creation when God created Adam/Eve, as soon as God created 'em He know eveything in advance but i'll explain that "everything" in more details: (the sequence is important)
1- He knew Satan will disobey to bow
2- He knew Satan will be cursed
3- He knew Satan will ask to survive
4- He knew Satan will try to take revenge
5- He knew Satan will try to mislead His new creation
6- He knew Adam/Eve will be seducded
7- He knew they will be sent down to earth
8- He knew they will reproduce
9- He exactly knew their offspring
10- He exactly knew their offspring's offspring and so on
11- He foreseed every indivisual's life

- Then he foreseed ALL since the creation of Adam/Eve so this omniscience leads to:
God knows every indivisual's life and even after life so why he still needs to test?
the only satisfying answer would be:
according to that story we are just marionette then the judgement is not just then God is not just then...


another problem:
what was God's initial plan?
1. He'd planned to create Humans and let them live in heaven as it was at first.
2. He'd planned to create Humans and test to send qualified one's to heaven.

if it was #1 then God's been surprized by Satan and it's against the claims of being omnipotent/omnisciet.
plus this that, if it's so then what about that restriction over The Tree?
if it was #2 then why were they in heaven at first? why didn't He put them on earth from the beggining?
and if they were in heaven...and satan was allowed to enter heaven and all Human's needs were present there, then what was the necessity of creating another place like earth for JUST A TEST? everything God needed for that so-called qualification test was present in heaven, wasn't there? their fall to earth seems to be a kind of punishment, maybe that
heaven was so good and God wanted something less perfect...then why? there was no need for a fall to a lower place...
but wait...there was...without this fall, there couldn't be the bluffs of heaven...there couldn't be any promised rewards...

this scenario is kinda self-contradctory and also full of unnecessary events. no Logical/All-knowing/All-powerfull God will act this way.
this contradiction comes from the crude replacement of polytheism with monotheism. look at God's deeds in the creation myth, they seem to be just RESPONCES to events OUT OF HIS CONTROL :
- God orders Satan to bow to Adam
- Satan refuses
- God REACTS by cursing him
- Satan asks for survival
- Gos REACTS by permission
- Satan threatens God by promising that he'll do his best in misleading His creation using temptation
- God REACTS by promising to send him to hell along with anyone who follows the temptations

see...just reactions/responces...God is no more the ultimate commander here.
it's like that the concept of gods' struggles is still present here, thus SATAN is no more a (negative)god fighting another (posituve) god, the trace of such a notion is still present. the only thing which is added to make God superior is that He Himself LETS that devil to fight His will, screw up His creation and so on.

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I think it's a very possible and widely accepted explanation,to show that verdicts are justified,but logically,let's take the example of a person,God knows in advance that this woman will commit a certain act in a certain time,that means from our perspective that this person must exist to accomplish it,so if He foresees something it must happen
otherwise the forecast would be wrong,I think about it as God first decides to create the person,then sees what his life is will turn to,so if the creation is not to happen,the forecast is also not to happen.

and how is it related to the need for test?

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some passages in the Quran do not represent teachings of course,it's not a constitution,nor a history book,those passages can be considered just informative

if muslims believe Quran is God's final/most perfect words, the lead to the best life for all nations at all times, etc then it's supposed to talk about more important unanswered questions than such minor so-called informative teachings.
i mean it obviously lacks the information needed to be even something special, let alone being the best/the most perfect/etc.

"...This day have I perfected your religion for you completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as
your religion..." 5:3

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you can always mention examples,but I should remind that Islam is not just the Quran,the Quran is the first source, many things are not detailed in the quran,that's why we give the importance in second place to the Sunna,it presents more details,because a fundamental issue like prayer for example is barely mentionned in the Quran,but the sunna it
is detailed.

i'm not talking about relligious matters such as prayer.
take the questions which you answered by "MAYBE/WE DON'T KNOW" as an instance.

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again it would be better if you precise which passages are you talking about(about camels)

Do they not look at the Camels how they are made? 88:17

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about 7 skies,there is no indication that it means layers of the skies

isn't there? what are these:
He Who created the seven heavens one above another; no want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious so turn thy vision again: Seest thou any flaw? 67:3

See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another 71:15

So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights and (provided it) with
guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might Full of knowledge. 41:12

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some people tried to explain it so but it's not probable espatially that most trusted scientists consider only 5 layers, or 8 layers,but,are telling me that you accept the interpretation of this verse as scientific,while there are about 20 other authentic scientific indications in the Quran that you refuse to see?

what do mean scientists consider it to be 5 layered/8 layered?
you know what, you're going it vice versa. it dosen't prove anything if you can INTERPRET even 20000000000000000...0000000000000 ideas in Quran!!! it's enough to find just ONE explicitly wrong element to prove it is man-made...lets go further, there's even no need to find something wrong, even incompleteness is enough...
nevertheless i haven't seen a new special transparent scientific thing in Quran... though there was a bunch of examples in our highschool books but they were nothing but interpretations...fuck, it's still miserable to remember those days that i had to memorize those bullshits for exames...

do you believe in Nostradamus just because some ppl have interpreted his words as prescience of Iraq war, Iran's revolution, september11 terrorost attacks, etc?

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an interesting point,this issue has been discussed by great muslim philosophers and thinkers a long time ago,and they gave many points about it,what I prefer of them is the saying that God could've created this universe instantly,but he prefered not to,because he wanted to teach us a great value,that is that one should take his time to make a good
work free of mistakes even if he is sure of his capability,because creating the universe instantly would be a greater display of power,while creating them in 6 days is a greater display of wisdom,God wanted us to see more his wisdom.

oh come on...is such a poor explaination the product of great philosophers?
this view is extremely humanizing God as he compares Himself with his own creation. how can an omnipotent God compare his creation with what his OWN creations make?
God spent billions of years on creation just to tell ppl be patient? lol
he could've done it in a 2-word instruction: "be patient"...
let me tell you the real reason of that "6day" indication in Quran...Muhammed took it from christianity and you can clearly see the product of God's daily creation there.

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The Quran is a book sent to humans and not animals and plants,those do not have the faculty of thinking although there are some ideas about animals like the one I mentionned before that they will be gathered with humans the judgement day.

you are missing the point, the problem is the incompleteness of Quran not to whom it's been sent or so.

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maybe because he is powerful and those planets are a display of that.

maybeS are not satisfying answers for questions.

and i ask for the third time, how do you explain that "we"S in Quran refering to Allah? i guess it has something to do with arabic lang.

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let natural selection explain to me why this universe is so beautiful?why nature is so beautiful?

why do you think beauty can prove anything? there's even no unique norm for measuring it. indivisuals' tastes are rooted in for explamle ppl's cultures. this is your conclusion:

1.beauty needs design.
2.world is beautiful.
3.world has a creator.
obviously that conclusion is based on a wrong assumption.

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yes the Quran is full of "don't you seeS" and "don't you thinkS" because it's the center of the message,it is necessary to think in order to see the wisdom behind the teachings of Islam.

is that so? but i don't know why the more i think the more i become certain that there's no god...

Written by akatana on 22.08.2008 at 13:47

...

i always enjoy reading your posts and hope to see you here more often...

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The beauty of the universe? Obviously you think that the explosion of a dying star is really bright with colors and shiny. Well it isn't, it's just a technique that they use to bring out details in cosmic events. They don't really photograph a dying star or a quasar, they shoot different types of radiation at it and then color the reflected waves in different colors to see the differences in materials. A cosmic explosion besides being a catastrophic event that would destroy everything in our solar system if it would happen in our proximity is not really that beautiful.

look at these masterpieces: lol

We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars.
37:6
It is We who have set out the Zodiacal Signs in the heavens and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders;And (moreover) we have guarded them from every evil spirit accursed: But any that gains a hearing by stealth is pursued by a flaming fire bright (to see).
15:16,15:17, 15:18


now learn: the stars are (7-layered) skies' decoration and fireballs are sent by Allah to banish demons...

@ keyser Soze
I see you got 20 percent of the post,and I don't even understand what you are trying to say,why God says 'we'??I'll tell you what, go be a god and say I and do all that you want to do,because as there is a hole in your reasonning I cannot talk about God with you,you better talk about Islam because I have been breaking a rule talking and analyzing God as a being.

what?
i was trying to say that not only our free-will contradicts God's omniscience but also the story of creation contradicts those attributes assigned to an omnipotent/omniscient/unique God.
don't fool yourself, you could understand what i meant, if you don't know the answer, say "i don't know" simply. this won't change anything...

and about that "we"="NAHNO in arabic", got it?
why god says for example: "NAHNO (we) created the universe instead of ANA (I)".


then again i'm an idiot for writing what you didn't even bother to read/think about...

it's not that I did not get the meaning of your sentences but I see no importance of answering them,because here you can use your Black Winter mode and answer yourself because I think you are able to with most of your sentence,and I wont be fair if I quote them and 'fuge' them,because the last time I decided to do so I spent two days collecting references from hadith books and I was disappointed of your answer to them,but still I am ready to spend as much time as it takes to answer any serious and important point,because this one,why God refers to himself as 'we' sometimes is really lame,unless you precise what you are seeking exactly with this question,but let's give the obvious explanation that could figure out by yourself:
Whenever in the Quran God is mentioned in the third person there are always singular pronouns used, such as He, him (Huwa or Hu). Whenever God is spoken to in the second person there are also singular pronouns, such as Thou, Thine and Thee (Anta, Ka). However only in the first person some times the pronouns I, My or Mine (Ana, Iyaya, ya) are used and sometimes We, Us and Our (Nahnu, Na) are used.
This is a style of speech. Sometime the speaker says I and sometime says we. We also use that in our conversations. In the Quran you will see that often the first person singular such as I or My is used, when God speaks about His love, care and closeness and forgiveness for His servants. In a similar way the first person plural is often used when God speaks about His power, majesty, glory, great deeds or when He speaks about His anger and wrath for the sinners and criminals. (This is, of course, the general use. Sometime the reverse is also the case, depending on the context of the Surah.)
See for example the verses where the first person singular is used: "When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: let them also, with a will, listen to My call, and believe in Me: that they may walk in the right way." (2:186) Or "Verily, I am God: there is no god but I: so serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise." (20:14) or "But, without doubt, I am (also) He that forgives again and again, to those who repent, believe, and do right, who, in fine, are ready to receive true guidance." (20:82) or see another example where both pronouns are used side by side, "Before them the People of Noah rejected (their Messenger): they rejected Our servant, and said, "Here is one possessed!" and he was driven out. Then he called on His Lord: "I am one overcome: do Thou then help (me)!" So We opened the gates of heaven, with water pouring forth. And We caused the earth to gush forth with springs. So the waters met (and rose) to the extent decreed. But We bore him on an (Ark) made of broad planks and caulked with palm-fiber: She floats under Our eyes (and care): a recompense to one who had been rejected (with scorn)! And We have left this as a Sign (for all time): then is there any that will receive admonition? But how (terrible) was My Penalty and My Warning? (54:9-16)
See also some verses where the first person plural is used: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." (al-Hijr 15:9) or "We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, but for just ends. And the Hour is surely coming" (15:85) or "And among His Signs is this: thou seest the earth barren and desolate; but when We send down rain to it, it is stirred to life and yields increase. Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth can surely give life to (men) who are dead. For He has power over all things." (41:39). Or "Already has Our Word been passed before (this) to Our Servants sent (by Us). That they would certainly be assisted. And that Our forces, they surely must conquer. So turn thou away from them for a little while. And watch them (how they fare), and they soon shall see. Do they wish (indeed) to hurry on our Punishment? But when it descends into the open space before them, evil will be the morning for those who were warned (and heeded not) (37:171-177). There are many other examples,but is this what is important of Islam,does that make any difference?honestly it does not for me.

guy it's too hard tell something about the islam
I believe cuz I know lil little things about islam, I know just about the TV shows / explains, I know that islam must be his good bside, but the media 99,00% tells just the hell that islam are

@ Black Winter

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it's not that I did not get the meaning of your sentences but I see no importance of answering them.

maybe they're unimportant for you but IMO such problems can clear up alot about (Abrahamic) relligions generally.

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because the last time I decided to do so I spent two days collecting references from hadith books and I was disappointed of your answer to them.

you mean the part about animals? sorry... but if you remember i agreed they were acceptable examples of Islamic teachings...BTW, it didn't happen to only you, the same was with me trying to show you what muslims did to Persia...

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this one,why God refers to himself as 'we' sometimes is really lame,unless you precise what you are seeking exactly with this question

why is it lame? i didn't want to conclude polytheism from it!!! i just thought maybe it has a hidden meaning behind in Arabic lang. though it's not important for you, was confusing for me...

anyway, thanX for the answer.

Written by akatana on 23.08.2008 at 12:04


But I will ask you again, why do you not view the conclusion of the scientists concerning gravity or electricity or any other thing as bizarre? Just those related to evolution. That for me is a clear sign of ignorance or religious indoctrination.

there is no similarity between gravity,electricity,and evolution,because gravity was proven over and over by experience and all assumptions based on it were 100% correct,electricity too,but with evolution,I have not been reading into it for enough time to comment upon your statement that 'all reaserches are coherant',but just in my little mind I cannot accept that this process that originated life diversity through a certain time,that is always on,but that there was no remarkable transition during the last 4000 years,take for example what you have mentionned before,chicken,records of this animal were tracked in 1200 BC,there also can be more records that go further in the past,anyway I think there has been enough time since chicken wings became non fonctional,but they remained birds,how come they still have not lost completely their wings through all this time,do you know what the average age of chicken is?it's 3 years,that makes thousands of generations and still,chicken have their non-fonctional wings wings.what's wrong?humans lost their tails that way right?and by the way I found some interesting quote from the messenger some time ago when I was looking for references for Keyser Soze that could explain why there is a structure such as tail gene in human genome,but I need to find the translation of the hadith and what evolutionists say about this structure first.


@keyser soze
trying to understand the notion of the abrahamic God,and let me speak of Islam here because even about the notion of God there are some differences that could lead you wrong,I have noticed for example what you said about the reason that makes an all loving God do this or that,here I must correct you,we have not this character in islam,we were not told that God is 'all loving' but just kind and merciful,when there are talkings about love assigned to God in the Quran it's about those most fidels,there are degrees of love and there is also hatered,so God does not love everyone but he is merciful to everyone.

did i speak of "God's love" here? that was in christianity thread.
that post here, was mostly about God's omniscience, omnipotence, All-goodness, creation, judgement.
of course Allah is not all-loving, it can apparently be seen in many Quran verses...

oops sorry I thought it was here that you mentionned it

that question of half a wing was posed by (christian) creationists more that half a century ago and been responded by scientists.
i don't have enough biological knowledge to give detailed responses about the evolution of wing, the only thing i can say is that:
first off, it's not just in chickens, can be observed in some birds and insects too...
thus half-wing can't be used for flying, it has several other beneficial functions:

- even on ground wings have big evolutionary advantages such as attracting the opposite-sex, startlig attackers, thermoregulation,...
- in penguins for example, the wing is used for swimming.
- wing-flapping enhances hindlimb traction in immature chickens and allows 'em to ascend steeper inclines.
- etc

these are the ones i could remember otherwise the answer to that question is much more detailed and extensive...

Black Winter you escaped from answering again, np.
I'm bored with this thread and it just seems like a waste of time to me.
disscussing here won't make any sense and wish someday can see a kiss of death for all these damn religions.

I abandon here.

Written by Mosquiller on 24.08.2008 at 00:04

wish someday can see a kiss of death for all these damn religions.

it'll definately happen but you can't see it cos we are dead and rotten then...

"evolutionary advantage" what's one?
I know those roles but are those the original functions of wings?wings essential function is to fly,if we suppose that they lost their function then why,instead if disappearing,they aquired new functions,while for humans,we supposed that once their tails lost their initial function,they gradually disappeared?
I've been thinking by the way,every scientific thesis accepts being proved wrong,that's a part of being scientific,tell me how can anyone prove darwinism evolution wrong?