I'm a bit concerned on the term avantgarde.
The meaning, to me, is something that "comes before", a pacer for others to follow.
The main difference between avantgarde and experimental music can only be judged after some years, according to the result obtained, or in some rare cases in the same period if it's part of a small movement experimenting in one given direction.
What avantgarde is to you?

Any experiments, even the most bizarre, always have a starting point and a direction. Any experiment, being a isolated one or a leading one, is related to something. Even when it does more than a few steps in a direction, the starting point is always recognizable.

Why am I pointing out this? The point is that the term avantgarde by itself does not define a music style (and should not). As such it's meaning less as the only description of a band. I know that band profile has Avantgarde metal, which is somehow better than solely avantgarde, but we are on metalstorm, avantgarde hip-hop would be out of place...

What do you think about a band when you only read avantgarde?
Some years ago when I read that tag about Isis. I got disappointed by the real sound of the band, because I was used to see the tag avantgarde for very different styles of music.
Now I love them but I am still concerned on tagging them avantgarde only.
Try to search for 'Avantgarde' style in MS. What is the common point in Isis, Mirrorthrone (who, by the way, sounds ordinary BM to me), Peccatum and Age Of Silence?

I personally think that avantgarde should only be used as an 'adjective' of some other style, or it should be used as one of the styles and never as the only one.
Neurosis has the much more explanatory double tag 'Avantgarde' and 'Alternative' for the same period, that gives a better idea of what it's all about...

Is it only me?

No, it's confusing as hell. But maybe this will hold some light as to the difference between avant garde and experimental. Avant garde is holding an extreme position, and lying outside the box; whilst experimental music is pushing the boundaries of the box. There is a massive difference between, say kayo dot, who are completely outside the box; and system of a down, which just tinker with an old formula slightly.

But yeah, to see meshuggah classified as avant garde confuses me as well. And the fine line between progressive, avant garde and experimental, is often blurred to the point of non-existance, and it tends to be a bit of trial and error in finding bands you like.

I think problem is with the very definition of the word "avantgarde" itself...what does it mean exactly? what is enough "new" to be marked avantgarde? what is not...?

Written by Ellrohir on 06.12.2009 at 23:23

I think problem is with the very definition of the word "avantgarde" itself...what does it mean exactly? what is enough "new" to be marked avantgarde? what is not...?

Avant garde is characterized by the use of innovative, large-scale experimentation, and the use of non-standard sounds, instruments, and song structures. At least, that's the simplest definition I could muster.

The question remains - what are exact definitions of these terms? when you for instance say music is "large-scale experimentation"?

This might help
http://www.metalstorm.ee/pub/article.php?article_id=161

Well I guess I consider it to be a genre for itself, but yes, I also agree that I prefer to have that kind of music labeled with one more style of Metal. So... well, this really meant nothing. The answer is just as hard to explain as the genre.

Actually, avant garde means belonging to a certain group of bands, or contributing to a certain movement in music... Avant garde means front line, so if a band is amongst a selection of bands that explore a particular style before it becomes popular, they are avant garde.

So, for example, Neurosis and Isis were certainly very avant garde in the past. They are no longer avant garde but arguably, they are still experimental. Mayhem used to be avant garde in the late 80s/early 90s and now they are also just experimental.

Avant garde is kinda like a vector value in a way.

Also, dont forget, good people, that the tags used in our database are here to aid the database itself ie. make it easier to search etc. Genres and styles are in actuality not easily attainable categories that music can be divided into, they are merely an imperfect way of describing music.

The annoying thing is that bands like kayo dot, isis, unexpect, iwrestledabearonce and mr bungle get grouped together when they are nothing alike.

Avantgarde is simply a label you put on bands you can't classify. Instead of admitting a band fits in no existing subgenre, you just call it "avantgarde". It's not an adjective, like "Symphonic" or "Folk", IMO.

I also noticed most "avantgarde" bands I know use similar themes, like "cicrcus" and "madness"... Put that way, Unexpect, Le Grand Guignol and Diablo Swing Orchestra could be in the same category, but Unexpect and Le Grand Guignol would be Extreme kinds of Avantgarde.

Well, I'm no expert, but as far as I've listened, the weirder it is, the more Avantgarde, like Fantômas or Ulver.

Written by Guest on 07.12.2009 at 23:24

Yeah it can be stand alone as ''Avant-garde Metal'' also some others references ''Extreme Avant-garde Metal'' & ''Avant-garde Black Metal''

Well, to me this sounds like ''Avant-garde Metal'' is the "I don't know how to label it better" tag and the others give an overall idea of the sound-scape they are exploring.
The standalone use seems like a defeat for who wants to describe the very sound of the band/record/whatever.

I agree it's kind of abstract but I don't think it's anything to be "concerned" about.

To me, avantgarde is a tag that cannot be used isolated in metal bands, that tag is for bands like secret chiefs 3 and Alamaailman Vasarat for example. For metal bands the tag avantgarde metal ou avantgarde BM, must be used is bands that have a musical base (metal, BM, DM, etc.) but uses strange elements to those styles.

For example Isis is only experimental sludge, or post sludge. These are terms that describe music that pushes the boundaries of that musical style (sludge), but do not uses strange elements or scales, or type of drumming. Call Isis avantgarde is ridiculous.

But in bands like carnival in coal, lux occulta, ephell duath or diablo swing the music is not described as a evolution from one style, but a conjugation of diferent styles, but with a base, metal. They have a metal base but they are influenced for other styles completly stranges to metal like jazz (ephel duath and lux) and trip-hop (in lux), tango (diablo), etc.

Avantgarde is related with art rock and crossover
but actually with art,meaning factor and elements in the song and composing.
for exsample ISIS is avantgarde metal.
but yup.it is hard to define.and references of sound is not enough.
so this style of music still have no enough prove to come out.
but when it become longer history.everything will be explain .

Avantgarde. It has such a broad meaning to it. It is a tag that can go with any music. Experimental to whatever music it is applied to.

When someone describes MUSIC as Avant-garde, it seems it's just a newer way to call it "progressive" or "alternative". Since it's easier to describe music by smacking labels on them, avant-garde seems to be a genre. Like "indie" music... the original style used to be usually produced by an independent label... But now anything with an acoustic guitar that appeals to "hipsters" is labeled as indie. Doesn't make much sense when you think about it, but we just gotta deal with it I guess. :/

Progressive is about acheiving complexity, whereas Avant garde is about creating something new altogether.

Written by whatsacow on 29.03.2010 at 03:05

Progressive is about acheiving complexity...

There are loads of so-called progressive bands that aren't that complex.
I would say the adjective is best used when it comes to bands achieing complexity, such as there are technical thrash metal & technical death metal

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.03.2010 at 13:23

Written by whatsacow on 29.03.2010 at 03:05

Progressive is about acheiving complexity...

There are loads of so-called progressive bands that aren't that complex.
I would say the adjective is best used when it comes to bands achieing complexity, such as there are technical thrash metal & technical death metal

Technical death and technical thrash are often branded as prog, and meshuggah is branded as avant garde, which i really don't get. A lot of prog metal ie. dream theater, pain of salvation, pagans mind etc. are extremely complex. Although i agree, bands like porcupine tree aren't really technical, they aren't progressive metal, but progressive rock.
Avant garde seems to be musically less complex, and by that, i mean that the instruments are playing simple stuff, but there many layers. Whereas prog is entirely about pushing boundaries, bands like kayo dot, maudlin of the well, and unexpect completely break those boundaries; and where prog is about mainly experimenting with rythms, avant garde is experimenting with sounds, dissonances, instruments, structures, etc. Prog follows a rule book. Prog doesn't.

Written by whatsacow on 31.03.2010 at 00:53

Technical death and technical thrash are often branded as prog, and meshuggah is branded as avant garde, which i really don't get. A lot of prog metal ie. dream theater, pain of salvation, pagans mind etc. are extremely complex. Although i agree, bands like porcupine tree aren't really technical, they aren't progressive metal, but progressive rock.
Avant garde seems to be musically less complex, and by that, i mean that the instruments are playing simple stuff, but there many layers. Whereas prog is entirely about pushing boundaries, bands like kayo dot, maudlin of the well, and unexpect completely break those boundaries; and where prog is about mainly experimenting with rythms, avant garde is experimenting with sounds, dissonances, instruments, structures, etc. Prog follows a rule book. Prog doesn't.

I put prog (or progressive or what-ever-the-fuck) and avant-garde in the same boat. Based off your description, bands like Pain of Salvation would be avant-garde also. Their music isn't too complex and is heavily layered for atmospheric and other effects (Perfect Element, Remedy Lane-era). Arcturus does the same thing... But they are avant-garde. Early Genesis and artists like Frank Zappa experimented with different sounds and whatnot too, but they are widely considered progressive. To me progressive is any band that (even in the slightest) pushes some sort of musical boundaries, while doing what they wanna do and running with it. Pain of Salvation, Zappa, Arcturus, Primus, Mr. Bungle, Sigh, Pelican, Solefald, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Rush, Diablo Swing Orchestra... They are all in the progressive rock/metal boat to me.

I rarely give a crap to understand what Avantgarde metal means...in my head it is something somewhat progressive that sounds obscure. Not necessarily musically very technical ala Dream Theater, but something which combines different styles of metal in an obscure way, ie Arcturus.

Avantgarde music, is usually (or supposed to be) innovative and orginal and the artists apply new techniques or concepts to their music - progressive would just refer to existing music branching into different sections - or advancing. Not all progression can be considered a positive development and in fact music can actually progress in one aspect and digress in another.