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Posted by on 17.05.2006 at 06:11
Well seeing Christianity and Islam I felt I might as well round out the "Big 3". Pretty much this should be a topic for you discuss your feelings ideas and ask questions. I ask that you avoid National Socialist thoughts I'm fine with dislike or hatred of the religion but the National Socailist ideas and beliefs revolving around Judaism are misinformed to say the least. Personally I feel the Judaism has to be the one of the most persecuted religions throughout history. Seemingly every era of man passed that of the Neolithic has had a society that has dislike the Jews immensely. This maybe to early on prothelatizing or some other reason. I'm interested in your thoughts.



Page 4 of 4

Ellie
Account deleted
  09.11.2007 at 19:17
Written by Sunioj on 09.11.2007 at 15:08

I could understand why someone would question the holocaust myself, especially if they don't know anyone that has been in camps or lived during that time. But I don't the figures are that surprising, seeing as so many nations suffered huge losses ( like Russia i.e. 20 million, thats just staggering ) and even IMO the holocaust included the also, very large amount of gypsies, homosexuals, mentally disabled, were also killed in millions in camps etc.

I don't think its Anti-Semitism, question what you will, thats something we have to do with every historical/tragic event. There are even jews that deny the holocaust, but they support Judaism etc. But I have bias towards them in a negative way, so thats just my opinion.


Well of course I account the homosexuals, gypsies, metally ill, exc. into accounts. The figures generally say 12 million and half of that were Jews. I think the reason why it gets denied so much is because people dont realize how many Jews there actually were in Europe before the war. Most people havent even been exposed to the huge number of Jewish towns that simply got wiped out. I mean of course there will be Jews that deny the Holocaust. Being Jewish is like a culture. No matter what you believe about anything; you will always be Jewish if your mother is. I dont practise the Jewish faith but my mother is Jewish so that makes me Jewish. I just think people need to be aware and educated on the Holocaust or else something like this can happen again. I dont even mean to the Jews but to any race, religion, exc. Its been a long time since WWII and there is still such little tolerance in the world.
Ellie
Account deleted
  09.11.2007 at 19:27
Written by Sunioj on 09.11.2007 at 15:08

I could understand why someone would question the holocaust myself, especially if they don't know anyone that has been in camps or lived during that time. But I don't the figures are that surprising, seeing as so many nations suffered huge losses ( like Russia i.e. 20 million, thats just staggering ) and even IMO the holocaust included the also, very large amount of gypsies, homosexuals, mentally disabled, were also killed in millions in camps etc.

I don't think its Anti-Semitism, question what you will, thats something we have to do with every historical/tragic event. There are even jews that deny the holocaust, but they support Judaism etc. But I have bias towards them in a negative way, so thats just my opinion.


Well of course I account the homosexuals, gypsies, metally ill, exc. into accounts. The figures generally say 12 million and half of that were Jews. I think the reason why it gets denied so much is because people dont realize how many Jews there actually were in Europe before the war. Most people havent even been exposed to the huge number of Jewish towns that simply got wiped out. I mean of course there will be Jews that deny the Holocaust. Being Jewish is like a culture. No matter what you believe about anything; you will always be Jewish if your mother is. I dont practise the Jewish faith but my mother is Jewish so that makes me Jewish. I just think people need to be aware and educated on the Holocaust or else something like this can happen again. I dont even mean to the Jews but to any race, religion, exc. Its been a long time since WWII and there is still such little tolerance in the world.
SETHULHU
the BALEETER

Posts: 7191

Age: 35
From: Lebanon

  12.11.2007 at 10:51
Written by Guest on 09.11.2007 at 06:43

Written by SETHULHU on 27.08.2006 at 14:14

so here comes my next question?if i deny the holocaust, will i become an anti-semite?i dont want that label because i DO DENY the holocaust. well not all of it, but some DID die, just not as much as we were told. far fa far and much much much less than we were told.

how about when the people deny the Armenian Genocice/Holocaut, shouldnt they be called anti-armenian or whatever race they are called?

I think that's a highly ignorant statement. My grandparents are survivors of the Holocaust and all of their families perished within it. I have a photo of my grandmother weighing 56 pounds when it was over. I think you must believe everything you are told because of what you just stated..I don't see how someone could deny it any other way.


Ellie, just like what Eternal Flames said. i dont Deny the fact that the Nazi's killed alot of Jews, and it is important not to forget the week, old, sick, deformed, other minorities/groups that were part of the killings. I do DENY what is said in numbers. but in all cases, it did happen, if that pleases you, just not to the extent we where taught in schools. as for believeing everything i read, well sorry. i dont need to go there, otherwise i would believe we landed on the moon and other false "FACTS" we are always told to beleive.
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Too many fail.

Posts: 533
From: Finland

  12.11.2007 at 11:47
Written by SETHULHU on 12.11.2007 at 10:51

i dont need to go there, otherwise i would believe we landed on the moon and other false "FACTS" we are always told to beleive.


Sorry to derail the thread but whats your reasoning behind doubting the moon landing? Are you also into jfk and 9/11 theories_
----
Here is my actual theory beyond the huge, hilarious jokes I have: If you're so pro-life and you're so pro-child, then adopt one that's already here, that's very unwanted and very alone and needs someone to take care of it.
- Bill Hicks
SETHULHU
the BALEETER

Posts: 7191

Age: 35
From: Lebanon

  12.11.2007 at 12:25
Written by Too many fail. on 12.11.2007 at 11:47

Written by SETHULHU on 12.11.2007 at 10:51

i dont need to go there, otherwise i would believe we landed on the moon and other false "FACTS" we are always told to beleive.


Sorry to derail the thread but whats your reasoning behind doubting the moon landing? Are you also into jfk and 9/11 theories_


like you said lets not derail the thread into this, but lets just say it is simple reasoning which was confirmed more recently when Bush stated they will be able to land on the moon in the next 10 years while back then (69) it took them only a few years. hmm ... lets discuss this in the thread dedicated to it if needed. as for the others. YES and YES to an extent
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This site is great. FOR ME TO POOP ON.

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GothHorizon

Posts: 29

Age: 23
From: Israel

  12.11.2007 at 13:59
Written by SETHULHU on 12.11.2007 at 10:51

Written by Guest on 09.11.2007 at 06:43

Written by SETHULHU on 27.08.2006 at 14:14

so here comes my next question?if i deny the holocaust, will i become an anti-semite?i dont want that label because i DO DENY the holocaust. well not all of it, but some DID die, just not as much as we were told. far fa far and much much much less than we were told.

how about when the people deny the Armenian Genocice/Holocaut, shouldnt they be called anti-armenian or whatever race they are called?

I think that's a highly ignorant statement. My grandparents are survivors of the Holocaust and all of their families perished within it. I have a photo of my grandmother weighing 56 pounds when it was over. I think you must believe everything you are told because of what you just stated..I don't see how someone could deny it any other way.


Ellie, just like what Eternal Flames said. i dont Deny the fact that the Nazi's killed alot of Jews, and it is important not to forget the week, old, sick, deformed, other minorities/groups that were part of the killings. I do DENY what is said in numbers. but in all cases, it did happen, if that pleases you, just not to the extent we where taught in schools. as for believeing everything i read, well sorry. i dont need to go there, otherwise i would believe we landed on the moon and other false "FACTS" we are always told to beleive.


like I said before

I saw some poeple that said that not too many people died at the holocaust, first I suspect it but I askes mine hystory teacher about it and she explain that-
- the nazis had destroy lot of the documents.
- and the nazis had killed entire community of jewish that had'nt written any one separately and still they are founding.
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Eternal Flames

Posts: 1570

Age: 24
From: Australia

  12.11.2007 at 15:17
Written by Guest on 09.11.2007 at 19:27

Written by Sunioj on 09.11.2007 at 15:08

I could understand why someone would question the holocaust myself, especially if they don't know anyone that has been in camps or lived during that time. But I don't the figures are that surprising, seeing as so many nations suffered huge losses ( like Russia i.e. 20 million, thats just staggering ) and even IMO the holocaust included the also, very large amount of gypsies, homosexuals, mentally disabled, were also killed in millions in camps etc.

I don't think its Anti-Semitism, question what you will, thats something we have to do with every historical/tragic event. There are even jews that deny the holocaust, but they support Judaism etc. But I have bias towards them in a negative way, so thats just my opinion.


Well of course I account the homosexuals, gypsies, metally ill, exc. into accounts. The figures generally say 12 million and half of that were Jews. I think the reason why it gets denied so much is because people dont realize how many Jews there actually were in Europe before the war. Most people havent even been exposed to the huge number of Jewish towns that simply got wiped out. I mean of course there will be Jews that deny the Holocaust. Being Jewish is like a culture. No matter what you believe about anything; you will always be Jewish if your mother is. I dont practise the Jewish faith but my mother is Jewish so that makes me Jewish. I just think people need to be aware and educated on the Holocaust or else something like this can happen again. I dont even mean to the Jews but to any race, religion, exc. Its been a long time since WWII and there is still such little tolerance in the world.

But people are educated about the holocaust. Everywhere in schools they teach children the 'facts' about the holocaust and that 6 million Jews perished. With all due respect though, the number of people that have been incarcerated because they denied the holocaust is a bit alarming to me. In fact, it surprisingly parallels Galileo's conflict with the Catholic Church in which the Catholic Church ordered Galileo to retract his views of a Heliocentric Universe because it contradicted the bible. Again, it's the notion of lack of freedom of speech in both situations.

Now, except for those of whom were directly involved in WWII somehow, no one will ever really know exactly how many Jews there were in the world. Can we even directly know nowadays how many Jews there really are in the world without statistics from the media? And how reliable are the media anyway? I don't want to get too political with this, but all I am trying to say is that we shouldn't believe everything we are told.

Now to get back to the religion of Judaism, it's a religion that I know the basic principles of, however having not study the religion myself there's probably a lot I am unaware of. Much alike any other organised religion, I doubt its credibility. The idea of them being the "chosen people" can be seen in other religions as well. While all the religions believe in different things, there seems to be many underlying commonalities between them.
Dane Train
Beers & Kilts

Posts: 8896

Age: 30
From: USA

  12.11.2007 at 17:42
Written by Eternal Flames on 12.11.2007 at 15:17

The idea of them being the "chosen people" can be seen in other religions as well.


Here is just a little something to think about.

I look at Israel (not referring to the country, but the people) and what the Bible predicted.

Just 10 ....many more than 10

1. Genesis 28:10-15 - Jacob had a vision 4000 years ago that the Jews would be scattered worldwide, that they would have a worldwide impact, and that they would be brought back to Israel. All three happened - each to an extreme unmatched by any other people in history.

2. Jeremiah 30:11 - Jeremiah said 2600 years ago that God will save the Jews and destroy their enemies. Gone are the Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman and Nazi empires. Each tried to destroy Israel and the Jews. And each have been destroyed. But not the Jews and not Israel.

3. Genesis 12:2-3 - Genesis said the Jews would have a worldwide impact. And indeed their contributions in the sciences, politics, arts and economics are vastly disproportionate to their numbers. The Jews introduced the one-true God concept, now embraced by 3 billion people.

4. Micah 3:11-12 - The prophet Micah said 2700 years ago that Jerusalem would be destroyed and literally "plowed like a field." When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 135 AD, they ran a plow over Jerusalem, they literally plowed Jerusalem.

5. Deuteronomy 28:64 - Deuteronomy said 3400 years ago that Jews would be scattered worldwide. History has but one example of a people being forcibly scattered as far west as California, as far east as Japan, as far north as Scandinavia, as far south as South Africa: The Jews.

6. Leviticus 26:31-32 - Leviticus said 3400 years ago that the Jewish homeland would be inhabited by enemies. And what other nation in this world today has so deeply rooted within its boundaries a sworn enemy that has so openly sought to destroy its host?

7. Zechariah 8:13 - Zechariah said 2500 years ago that Jews would be persecuted, but preserved. What other group has endured 19 centuries of exile, persecution and genocide, only to find the strength to re-establish their homeland, as did the Jews in 1948? Zero.

8. Deuteronomy 28:65-67 - Deuteronomy said the Jews would be persecuted in many nations. The Romans killed 1.5 million Jews. The Crusaders killed tens of thousands. England, France, Spain, Italy, Belgium banned Jews from living there. The Nazi's murdered 6 million.

9. Jeremiah 16:14-15 - Jeremiah said the second Israel would be more impressive than the first. The first Israel arose 3400 years ago after Jews had been enslaved in Egypt for 4 centuries. The second was born in 1948 after Jews had been scattered worldwide for 19 centuries.

10. Leviticus 26:3, 7-8 - Leviticus said the Jews would be disproportionately powerful. In 1948, Arab nations with a total population of 20 million sought to destroy Israel with its 600,000 Jews. The Jews won that and other wars since then. In 1967, Israel won a war in 6 days.
----
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Sunioj

Posts: 3894

Age: 27
From: Israel

  12.11.2007 at 19:01
I don't get it. Why do zionist zealots come here to Israel in the thousands when they probably have a better life in their original country? Persecution happens to every minority. And so what if the bible or torah says this or that about what happenned so far? Its all incredibly vague anyways. I personally don't like how homosexuals and pagans are portrayed in most religious sects of Judaism, and Kosher laws are the most contradicting thing in this country. All this chosen people crap gives religious idiots another reason to be intolerant of other people that reside in this land. It seems that most people just want a reason to live life on the edge and try something meaningful and spiritual yada yada by taking a liking into all this romanticism revolving aroud the 'lost tribes of Israel'. yes, you can find 'traces' of judaism in places as far as afghanistan or china, but they are almost completely integrated into the local culture that it would seem strange to call them Jewish.

But I have respect for the common belief in Judaism to where you are not supposed to impose your views and/or try to change someone elses opinion. Too bad some people don't get that ( intolerant zealots ). By the way, alot of the common belief in Orthodox or Khasidic Judaism is that non-jews have no soul, they are just animals in a sense. I have a friend who is a orthodox and he thinks just like this, no wait, actually quite a few of them do. Modern Orthodox Jews are pretty cool too, they support the state, they join the army, pay taxes like seculars, but follow their own beliefs. Unlike alot of the orthodox populas.

end of rant: Im sick of jews always victimzing themselves. not talking to anyone specifically here.
Too many fail.

Posts: 533
From: Finland

  12.11.2007 at 20:18
Written by Sunioj on 12.11.2007 at 19:01

end of rant: Im sick of jews always victimzing themselves. not talking to anyone specifically here.

Same with the Pals as well. People in the middle east should drop this fucken victim's mentality.
----
Here is my actual theory beyond the huge, hilarious jokes I have: If you're so pro-life and you're so pro-child, then adopt one that's already here, that's very unwanted and very alone and needs someone to take care of it.
- Bill Hicks
Sunioj

Posts: 3894

Age: 27
From: Israel

  12.11.2007 at 20:26
Written by Too many fail. on 12.11.2007 at 20:18

Written by Sunioj on 12.11.2007 at 19:01

end of rant: Im sick of jews always victimzing themselves. not talking to anyone specifically here.

Same with the Pals as well. People in the middle east should drop this fucken victim's mentality.


True man, I realize Im going on, but I understand the blokes from Ethiopia, Sudan, Persia, or some obscure muslim country coming here on their own accord because they seek refuge as jews. But they are even mistreated by other Ashkenazzi ( european jews ) and looked down upon by other jews. But seriously, people need to get their act together, this victim attitude is isolationist and not healthy.
Ellie
Account deleted
  12.11.2007 at 22:24
Written by Eternal Flames on 12.11.2007 at 15:17

Written by Guest on 09.11.2007 at 19:27

Written by Sunioj on 09.11.2007 at 15:08

I could understand why someone would question the holocaust myself, especially if they don't know anyone that has been in camps or lived during that time. But I don't the figures are that surprising, seeing as so many nations suffered huge losses ( like Russia i.e. 20 million, thats just staggering ) and even IMO the holocaust included the also, very large amount of gypsies, homosexuals, mentally disabled, were also killed in millions in camps etc.

I don't think its Anti-Semitism, question what you will, thats something we have to do with every historical/tragic event. There are even jews that deny the holocaust, but they support Judaism etc. But I have bias towards them in a negative way, so thats just my opinion.


Well of course I account the homosexuals, gypsies, metally ill, exc. into accounts. The figures generally say 12 million and half of that were Jews. I think the reason why it gets denied so much is because people dont realize how many Jews there actually were in Europe before the war. Most people havent even been exposed to the huge number of Jewish towns that simply got wiped out. I mean of course there will be Jews that deny the Holocaust. Being Jewish is like a culture. No matter what you believe about anything; you will always be Jewish if your mother is. I dont practise the Jewish faith but my mother is Jewish so that makes me Jewish. I just think people need to be aware and educated on the Holocaust or else something like this can happen again. I dont even mean to the Jews but to any race, religion, exc. Its been a long time since WWII and there is still such little tolerance in the world.

But people are educated about the holocaust. Everywhere in schools they teach children the 'facts' about the holocaust and that 6 million Jews perished. With all due respect though, the number of people that have been incarcerated because they denied the holocaust is a bit alarming to me. In fact, it surprisingly parallels Galileo's conflict with the Catholic Church in which the Catholic Church ordered Galileo to retract his views of a Heliocentric Universe because it contradicted the bible. Again, it's the notion of lack of freedom of speech in both situations.

Now, except for those of whom were directly involved in WWII somehow, no one will ever really know exactly how many Jews there were in the world. Can we even directly know nowadays how many Jews there really are in the world without statistics from the media? And how reliable are the media anyway? I don't want to get too political with this, but all I am trying to say is that we shouldn't believe everything we are told.

Now to get back to the religion of Judaism, it's a religion that I know the basic principles of, however having not study the religion myself there's probably a lot I am unaware of. Much alike any other organised religion, I doubt its credibility. The idea of them being the "chosen people" can be seen in other religions as well. While all the religions believe in different things, there seems to be many underlying commonalities between them.

Well you worded all that quite well and I agree with it..so I suppose there is no point in me trying to start an argument!
Eternal Flames

Posts: 1570

Age: 24
From: Australia

  13.11.2007 at 03:30
Written by Dane Train on 12.11.2007 at 17:42

Written by Eternal Flames on 12.11.2007 at 15:17

The idea of them being the "chosen people" can be seen in other religions as well.


Here is just a little something to think about.

I look at Israel (not referring to the country, but the people) and what the Bible predicted.

Just 10 ....many more than 10

That's understandable and is definitely believable from a religious standpoint. The Torah also had its prophecies, predicting that in order for the Jewish to return to their Promised Land they would "return, minus six million". Of course, for anyone who is religious, such prophecies are not hard to believe since six million perished in the holocaust and it supports the Torah's predictions. For atheists however, such prophecies would merely be seen as ironic or a coincidence.

I do respect Jewish views and values though. As Sunioj said, their belief that they are not supposed to try convert anyone to Judaism is respectful in my opinion. I don't denounce any religion in any way, although it's just not something that I have faith in.
Southern Wind
Account deleted
  10.12.2007 at 20:11
Jews are strange people, that's what I can deduce from my relationship with them. In university I had met a lot of them but it had been impossible to create any kind of relationship, they're just too enclosed, they just see each other discriminating the rest, and when they talk they usually do it from a position or "moral superiority" that works on my nerves. That self-exclusion is annoying for me.
GothHorizon

Posts: 29

Age: 23
From: Israel

  14.12.2007 at 15:57
Written by Guest on 10.12.2007 at 20:11

Jews are strange people, that's what I can deduce from my relationship with them. In university I had met a lot of them but it had been impossible to create any kind of relationship, they're just too enclosed, they just see each other discriminating the rest, and when they talk they usually do it from a position or "moral superiority" that works on my nerves. That self-exclusion is annoying for me.


hey that definitely not all the jews
they are just the religious.
as example the Israelis are very open. warm and very friendly.
and I mate in USA some jews that wasnt religious and thay was to very nice a nd open(not just to me because im jew).
----
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Southern Wind
Account deleted
  15.12.2007 at 00:03
Written by GothHorizon on 14.12.2007 at 15:57

Written by Guest on 10.12.2007 at 20:11

Jews are strange people, that's what I can deduce from my relationship with them. In university I had met a lot of them but it had been impossible to create any kind of relationship, they're just too enclosed, they just see each other discriminating the rest, and when they talk they usually do it from a position or "moral superiority" that works on my nerves. That self-exclusion is annoying for me.


hey that definitely not all the jews
they are just the religious.
as example the Israelis are very open. warm and very friendly.
and I mate in USA some jews that wasnt religious and thay was to very nice a nd open(not just to me because im jew).


I'm certainly not trying to generalize, and want to make clear that my experience was just at this moment in this place with a few people. But it is weird, most of the jews I had met aren't even religious, but they're always firstly jews and secondly chileans, even if they're the third generation living in this country.
Zarathustra19
Account deleted
  04.01.2008 at 21:05
I like Dane Train's examination of bible verses vs. the real world happenings. Very interesting parallels. And if the book of Job is any indication of the way god really does test faith, then yes, Jews are definitely the chosen people (Job was tortured by Satan with the permission of God in the book of Job to test his faith in the Lord) It seems the Judeo-Christian god tests faith through suffering. He better be nice to the Jews when they get to heaven. But I guess by the same reasoning, all of us other religions (Asatru myself) are going to have to go to Hell for being the vessel of satan that persecuted the Jews all these years.

As for the Holocaust, it did happen, but there were far more people lost from other minorities (Gypsies, Homosexuals, et al)killed than Jews, and while the holocaust of WWII and those that came after (Armenia, Dar Fur) was terrible and I hope they stop happening, it should be acknowledged that typically, Jews are the heads of mainstream media outlets. Perhaps they are smarter, or harder working to get there, but there IS some distortion of fact. Biases simply can't be left at the door, after all.

<disclaimer>My thoughts in no way support the WWII era National Socialism known as Nazism, and in fact I enjoy the company of many of my Jewish classmates at university. Please take whatever I say with an open mind.</disclaimer>
Woutjinho
Account deleted
  09.01.2008 at 11:33
is judaism about killing messiases?
Aei Ontos
Account deleted
  20.05.2008 at 10:21
It happens. Someone of our church went to Israel and he had contact with a pastor there and they received a package from orthodox Jews with a bomb in it. Many messianic Jews have trouble with this, as they are seen as betrayers and such. But the Jewish people (as the chosen people) are chosen with a reason, to bless the world. The way that they live now often does not bless the world really, but it is very understandeble that they act the way they do, they are afraid, yet they feel better than others.
Black Winter

Posts: 536

Age: 25
From: Tunisia

  24.05.2008 at 00:08
I have not realized the importance of the jewish population in Tunisia but lately some 6000 jews have come to Jerba isle in tunisia apparently to celebrate some occasion that I don't know about but what I heard is that here lies the second oldest jewish temple after Jerusalem,can anyone tell me more about this?since they don't welcome outsiders into that temple in ordinary days,any jews here?
----
Once the people decides to live, destiny will definetly obey..

T u n i s i a F r e e !
Aei Ontos
Account deleted
  26.05.2008 at 15:07
Written by Guest on 09.01.2008 at 11:33

is judaism about killing messiases?

I think I misinterpretted you. Judaïsm is not about killing messiases, it is all about following the the Lord (Adonai), and about it's people. But, they have quite another idea of the messias than the christians, as in judaism the messiah is thought to be a king that will rule over Israel and will save Israel from it's bad situation. While in christianity the verses out of Isaiah 53 are very important, where the messiah is painted as someone that will bear our sins and will die and be tortured and whatever more. Because of this other interpretation the jewish leaders almost 2000 year ago didn't seem to have much choice to do something different, unless they would have believed.
Woutjinho
Account deleted
  26.05.2008 at 19:48
Written by Guest on 26.05.2008 at 15:07

Written by Guest on 09.01.2008 at 11:33

is judaism about killing messiases?

I think I misinterpretted you. Judaïsm is not about killing messiases, it is all about following the the Lord (Adonai), and about it's people. But, they have quite another idea of the messias than the christians, as in judaism the messiah is thought to be a king that will rule over Israel and will save Israel from it's bad situation. While in christianity the verses out of Isaiah 53 are very important, where the messiah is painted as someone that will bear our sins and will die and be tortured and whatever more. Because of this other interpretation the jewish leaders almost 2000 year ago didn't seem to have much choice to do something different, unless they would have believed.


okay...
it was a joke if you havent noticed it
Aei Ontos
Account deleted
  27.05.2008 at 21:18
Written by Guest on 26.05.2008 at 19:48

Written by Guest on 26.05.2008 at 15:07

Written by Guest on 09.01.2008 at 11:33

is judaism about killing messiases?

I think I misinterpretted you. Judaïsm is not about killing messiases, it is all about following the the Lord (Adonai), and about it's people. But, they have quite another idea of the messias than the christians, as in judaism the messiah is thought to be a king that will rule over Israel and will save Israel from it's bad situation. While in christianity the verses out of Isaiah 53 are very important, where the messiah is painted as someone that will bear our sins and will die and be tortured and whatever more. Because of this other interpretation the jewish leaders almost 2000 year ago didn't seem to have much choice to do something different, unless they would have believed.


okay...
it was a joke if you havent noticed it

I know, I know...
Zombie
Thrash'tillDeath

Posts: 1627

Age: 28
From: Egypt

  29.05.2011 at 00:00
Is there "hell" in judaism ?
----


None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Johann Wolfgang van Goethe 1749-1832
Akram

Posts: 389
From: Egypt

  30.05.2011 at 00:30
I think yes, but if you mean eternal punishment it's just for a handful of people and the most have something likely a purgatory it depends on how evil was the person or how many sins he's got. I'm not sure anyway maybe if someone can provide us with verses in Torah or something.
----
"Neither love, friendship, or respect, unite as much as common hatred."
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 550
From: Israel

  16.06.2011 at 15:31
Written by Akram on 30.05.2011 at 00:30

I think yes, but if you mean eternal punishment it's just for a handful of people and the most have something likely a purgatory it depends on how evil was the person or how many sins he's got. I'm not sure anyway maybe if someone can provide us with verses in Torah or something.


The Torah isn't the Quran.
In orthodox Judaism (which is the Judaism supprotng the doctrines of the afterword, hell etc) the Torah is nearly meaningless when it comes to Halacha (Jewish religious laws) or the nature of god etc. I would go as far as saying It's just history & moral story telling (except maybe Vaykra book).
So from where do Jews get there laws?
From the Rabbinical tradition, basing the laws in important rabbinical literature (gmara, sholchan aroch, philosophical books etc).
So it depends on commentary and interpretation (god forget to send a reading manual).
----
‎"If you can't change your mind - are you sure you still have one?" - Twelve Virtues of Rationality
SPNkitkat

Posts: 17

Age: 21
From: Australia
  06.07.2011 at 19:14
Written by Zombie on 29.05.2011 at 00:00

Is there "hell" in judaism ?

Written by Akram on 30.05.2011 at 00:30

I think yes, but if you mean eternal punishment it's just for a handful of people and the most have something likely a purgatory it depends on how evil was the person or how many sins he's got. I'm not sure anyway maybe if someone can provide us with verses in Torah or something.


Actually no, there's no hell in Judaism -there's no Devil/Satan/Lucifer either, actually -that's all Christian beliefs.
As for versus from the Torah, I have no idea. But from what I understand, the Jewish belief is that there's a 'world-to-come' (pretty much heaven, where God & the angels are, etc.) but before you get there, there's purgatory -and the worse a person is, the more sins you've committed, the longer you stay in purgatory waiting to get to the world to come.

By the way, if you haven't guessed yet, I'm Jewish. Not religious at all, not even very strong in belief, but I know quite a bit about the religion & I've studied it a bit at school, so I can probably answer other questions if anyone has.
Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6737

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  07.07.2011 at 01:19
Written by SPNkitkat on 06.07.2011 at 19:14

Actually no, there's no hell in Judaism -there's no Devil/Satan/Lucifer either, actually -that's all Christian beliefs.

Old Testament existed already before Christianity. Or did Christians add Satan to this?
Also... is the name Satan itself not of Semitic origin? Or is it also a later Christian invention?
----
Go ahead, make my day...
SPNkitkat

Posts: 17

Age: 21
From: Australia
  07.07.2011 at 08:17
Written by Ernis on 07.07.2011 at 01:19

Written by SPNkitkat on 06.07.2011 at 19:14

Actually no, there's no hell in Judaism -there's no Devil/Satan/Lucifer either, actually -that's all Christian beliefs.

Old Testament existed already before Christianity. Or did Christians add Satan to this?
Also... is the name Satan itself not of Semitic origin? Or is it also a later Christian invention?


Yes the Old Testament is the Torah -but it's a translation of the Torah. The original Jewish Torah is in Hebrew, and the Christian version, the Old Testament, is their translation of it.

I don't know all the detail of how it actually happened, only that one of the main English versions of the Old Testament used the word Lucifer as the name of the Devil -whereas in the Torah, lucifer, meaning light-bearer, was actually in reference to the physical light of a planet in the sky.
I'm quite sure there's a similar thing with Satan, but I don't know that one..

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