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helofloki

Posts: 184

Age: 29
From: USA
  09.08.2012 at 16:48
This thread is for discussing the new American progressive metal scene. I am talking about bands like Between the Buried and Me, Protest the Hero and Periphery. I'm sure there are others that fall under this category, but these are the big ones. Anyway, what is interesting about this style and probably also what makes it controversial, is the fact that all of these bands seem to have roots in the dreaded 'metalcore' genre. However, each of them has expanded way beyond this with their creativity and musicianship to make some very interesting music that can really only be classified as Progressive Metal. Sure, these bands sound nothing like Dream Theater or Fates Warning, but isn't that good? Each of these bands still oozes 'progressive' but in new interesting ways.

I also say North American, because as far as I know Europe is doing something else, still following in the steps of Opeth and Porcupine Tree and the like.

So let's discuss. Do these bands deserve to be grouped together or am I full of shit? Do you like this style? Are there more bands you think fit this framework? Is Europe more a part of this scene than I realize? Should progressive metal only refer to the stagnancy of Dream Theater rip off bands?

I'll start by saying it's an interesting development and though I don't love all of it, I like the direction this is all heading in. I hope it inspires more technically proficient musicians to break the mold and try something new.
----
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Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 17730
From: Canada

  09.08.2012 at 17:31
Progressive metalcore? I don't know if I'd lump a lot of those bands into prog territory, being that their primary sound is metalcore based and their progressive styling is an additional element in the overall sound, but to each his own. I think Protest and BtBaM have more in common with other metalcore bands than most prog bands.

And the style isn't limited to the States - Europe definitely has a few bands to offer: Sikth and Circle of Contempt (more deathcore than metalcore) are two that come to mind immediately, although you're right about it being a predominantly American sound. Europe has never really been big on metalcore in general, with the exception of about three or four popular bands (like Heaven Shall Burn).
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Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37476

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  09.08.2012 at 17:48
Never heard of this and new wave prog sounds so boring, vecause old school prog is one step to bordness gardenn
give me bands in NWOAP
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Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 17730
From: Canada

  09.08.2012 at 18:04
Written by Bad English on 09.08.2012 at 17:48
Never heard of this and new wave prog sounds so boring, vecause old school prog is one step to bordness gardenn

It's not so much a new wave of prog as it is an evolution in metalcore. The new wave of prog would probably be djent.
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Prettier than BloodTears.
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37476

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  09.08.2012 at 18:17
Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.08.2012 at 18:04

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2012 at 17:48
Never heard of this and new wave prog sounds so boring, vecause old school prog is one step to bordness gardenn

It's not so much a new wave of prog as it is an evolution in metalcore. The new wave of prog would probably be djent.


it explains all, no thank's not my genre way to boring and way to pop
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Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

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Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 17730
From: Canada

  09.08.2012 at 18:28
Written by Bad English on 09.08.2012 at 18:17
to pop

How is this in any way affiliated with pop music? I'm really curious to see how you manage to link these genres together.
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Prettier than BloodTears.
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37476

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  09.08.2012 at 20:11
Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.08.2012 at 18:28

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2012 at 18:17
to pop

How is this in any way affiliated with pop music? I'm really curious to see how you manage to link these genres together.


sounds like ''pop'' way to not metal what I like
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
helofloki

Posts: 184

Age: 29
From: USA
  10.08.2012 at 04:30
I will check out some of those european bands. Anyway, I just think 'djent' fails as a genre. It's more a technique of syncing drums and guitar in polyrhythmic and unpredictable fashion. In other words bands that emulate meshuggah. What is interesting about 'djent' is it's like a technique for being progressive that doesn't stem directly from King Crimson.

I think Btbam and Protest the hero are much more on the progressive end than you're giving them credit. Metalcore is song oriented hardcore with melodic guitar hooks and thrash metal influences. I can see how Protest the Hero may appear to fall under this, they are song oriented (despite concept albums) and they have melodic guitar hooks. However, the method of how themes are developed is definitively progressive. The only thing that can throw people off is their high paced tempo, which is not a traditional progressive thing. Prog has been mid tempo forever, but Protest the Hero manages to make a very progressive sound despite pace.

Between the Buried and Me's first two albums could be argued as metalcore, sure. Even Alaska, sure. But they seem to have turned to the longer song form and haven't looked back. The long songs are progressive metal through and through, even if they have growls and screams. They are technical and follow either long developments, movements or classical forms. It's what progressive rock bands did, so I don't see how this is not progressive metal.

The only thing keeping people still calling this music metalcore is the nasal 'emo' style vocals and the extreme vocals and such. But we still call Opeth prog metal despite the growls, and the 'emo' vocals, at least with these bands, tend to actually delve into the operatic styles not unsimilar to Jon Arch or James Labrie. It's not just about odd time signatures or 'djent' or theme development or classical form or proficient musicianship. These bands use all these aspects. They fall much closer to the progressive end than the 'metalcore' end. I mean, I love Andromeda and Symphony X, but I think these 'metalcore' influenced bands are more progressive.
----
http://thecephalogue.blogspot.com/
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 17730
From: Canada

  10.08.2012 at 06:09
Written by Bad English on 09.08.2012 at 20:11
sounds like ''pop'' way to not metal what I like

How do any of these bands sound like, say, Madonna. Still waiting on an explanation there. I can understand if they aren't extreme enough (even though you listen to heavy metal and traditional doom) or if the clean vocals turn you off (again, you listen to heavy metal and traditional doom) but these characteristics are in no way restricted to pop music.

I think it's safe to say you're just opposed to listening to mainstream metal because it's stigmatized as poseur metal or whatever.
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Uldreth

Posts: 960

Age: 20
From: Hungary
  10.08.2012 at 10:05
Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.08.2012 at 17:31

I think Protest and BtBaM have more in common with other metalcore bands than most prog bands.



PTH most definitely but I don't hear much metalcore in nowadays' BTBAM. If you do please point out the obvious elements because I REALLY can't hear it, aside from the metalcore-ish vocals.

If you are talking about the self titled and The Silent Circus (maybe even Alaska) I agree but Colours/The Great Misdirect is just (extreme) prog metal with elements of various other genres, one of them which is metalcore.
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Written by Troy Killjoy on 25.12.2011 at 07:06

And then of course there's Asking Alexandria... For the record, nobody ever asked Alexandria anything ever again.



-Troy on trancecore
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37476

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  10.08.2012 at 12:04
Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.08.2012 at 06:09

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2012 at 20:11
sounds like ''pop'' way to not metal what I like

How do any of these bands sound like, say, Madonna. Still waiting on an explanation there. I can understand if they aren't extreme enough (even though you listen to heavy metal and traditional doom) or if the clean vocals turn you off (again, you listen to heavy metal and traditional doom) but these characteristics are in no way restricted to pop music.

I think it's safe to say you're just opposed to listening to mainstream metal because it's stigmatized as poseur metal or whatever.



Boring genre listen those bands longa nd you be bored
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

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Uldreth

Posts: 960

Age: 20
From: Hungary
  10.08.2012 at 12:21
Written by Bad English on 10.08.2012 at 12:04




Boring genre listen those bands longa nd you be bored

So because you find it boring, it must be pop music.

<ok>

I still don't see how


is related to

----
Written by Troy Killjoy on 25.12.2011 at 07:06

And then of course there's Asking Alexandria... For the record, nobody ever asked Alexandria anything ever again.



-Troy on trancecore
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37476

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  10.08.2012 at 12:26
1th video was lil OK but if I need listen album I would be boredm Im bored from DT actualy so , prog is bormng gernre such insyrumental variasions many instruments complicaions, Ac/Dc finmd fiew primitive accords and this tricks works whole life ... prog needs be primitive
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Tristus Scriptor
Rancid Reviewer

Posts: 281

Age: 33
From: USA

  10.08.2012 at 12:27
LOL! (Sorry. I couldn't contain it. Troy...you kill me...I'm "still waiting", myself...)
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 17730
From: Canada

  10.08.2012 at 15:28
Written by Uldreth on 10.08.2012 at 10:05
PTH most definitely but I don't hear much metalcore in nowadays' BTBAM. If you do please point out the obvious elements because I REALLY can't hear it, aside from the metalcore-ish vocals.

I don't listen to either band honestly enough to be able to pick out elements that define their music as either prog or metalcore, so I can't do that for you. And I haven't listened to albums by either band in full because I don't like their sound - I just remember when I listened to them (I think I had to listen to one for the MS Awards a year or two ago - not even sure which band it was of the two) they sounded like a very drawn out metalcore band. Perhaps that band has changed or perhaps I'm just hearing things differently.

And k7... for shame. Because you think a certain genre of music is boring, you say it's like pop music? I think that's more elitist than Marcel.
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Lit.
Brütal Legend

Posts: 3455

Age: 27
From: USA

  10.08.2012 at 18:37
Written by helofloki on 10.08.2012 at 04:30

...

I think you have a very black and white view on Progressive.

Written by Bad English on 10.08.2012 at 12:26

prog needs be primitive

Just like you, huh?
----
REPUBLICAN CAR!
helofloki

Posts: 184

Age: 29
From: USA
  12.08.2012 at 04:15
Written by Lit. on 10.08.2012 at 18:37


I think you have a very black and white view on Progressive.


Interesting, not sure exactly what you mean here, but it does get me thinking. Do you mean that I have drawn a very definitive line for what I view as progressive and what I do not? I'm not sure if I feel that way exactly. Progressive is a hard idea to pin down, there are a lot of different elements people think about when trying to define progressive. I believe if music has enough of these elements it is progressive. In other words, if it looks progressive, sounds progressive and smells progressive, it's probably progressive. Not that genre definition is important at all, good music is what is important, genre is irrelevant. However, at the same time we do enjoy categorizing things eh? And when it comes to progressive metal, i've just been a fan of it for so long that the way it is developing matters to me.

But really, I'm interested in what you think. In what ways are my views black and white and do you say that because you think these bands should not be considered progressive?
----
http://thecephalogue.blogspot.com/
Nickferatu367

Posts: 1607

Age: 28
From: USA

  13.08.2012 at 01:48
Read the first post. wouldnt call these bands progressive in any way. progressive implies a sort of complimentary style of playing in the band. from the bands described as "North American Prog Metal" in this thread and having seen a few live (under and above ground), i would say that it's more like a competitive. I would say metalcore was a fine enough way of describing them. I'd hate for bands like Symphony X, Nevermore, and such bands to be lumped into the same category as these folks.

89,000 sweep arpeggios and breakdowns dont make you progressive.
----
I will not reason and compare, my business is to create.
R'Vannith
Spiralmind

Posts: 2649

Age: 22
From: Australia

  13.08.2012 at 10:04
I haven't heard any material from these bands but I wonder whether they are progressive within a metalcore context, or whether they are progressive as in they can be associated with the genre tagged as "progressive metal" at large. It may be the case that within metalcore that there is a growing tendency to include elements which aren't usually associated with the genre, though, as I said, I can't vouch for this as I'm not familiar with it. While you can usually identify what is meant by the tag "progressive metal" its certainly not as rigid as other genres so it is flexible enough to incorporate bands which base their sound in metalcore.

This is purely an assumption, perhaps a biased one as I generally don't enjoy whatever metalcore I've come across, but I would say that these bands don't extend themselves far enough from their metalcore sound in order to be considered under the "progressive" umbrella.
Uldreth

Posts: 960

Age: 20
From: Hungary
  14.08.2012 at 13:11
Written by Nickferatu367 on 13.08.2012 at 01:48

Read the first post. wouldnt call these bands progressive in any way. progressive implies a sort of complimentary style of playing in the band. from the bands described as "North American Prog Metal" in this thread and having seen a few live (under and above ground), i would say that it's more like a competitive. I would say metalcore was a fine enough way of describing them. I'd hate for bands like Symphony X, Nevermore, and such bands to be lumped into the same category as these folks.

89,000 sweep arpeggios and breakdowns dont make you progressive.

Copying King Crimson does not make you progressive either tbh, even if that was originally progressive.

Credit goes to the prog metalcore scene for bands being actually very very different from each other, as they went out in different directions, which SHOULD BE what progressive is pretty much. If you look at Protest The Hero, Becoming The Archetype, SikTh, Misery Signals, Between The Buried And Me, The Human Abstract or perhaps even post-Constellations August Burns Red these are all pretty much progressive metalcore but they sound totally different from each other.

It does seem there seems to be a trend appearing in prog metalcore too, mainly bands sounding like Northlane I linked above, with the mathcore-ish odd meter chugging rhythms and huge djent influences but if it goes too much in that direction I'd simply call it tech metalcore and be done with it. I'd still say it's a good future for metalcore as those bands seem to be much more "musical" than most general metalcore bands.
----
Written by Troy Killjoy on 25.12.2011 at 07:06

And then of course there's Asking Alexandria... For the record, nobody ever asked Alexandria anything ever again.



-Troy on trancecore
helofloki

Posts: 184

Age: 29
From: USA
  15.08.2012 at 03:10
Written by Nickferatu367 on 13.08.2012 at 01:48

Read the first post. wouldnt call these bands progressive in any way. progressive implies a sort of complimentary style of playing in the band. from the bands described as "North American Prog Metal" in this thread and having seen a few live (under and above ground), i would say that it's more like a competitive. I would say metalcore was a fine enough way of describing them. I'd hate for bands like Symphony X, Nevermore, and such bands to be lumped into the same category as these folks.

89,000 sweep arpeggios and breakdowns dont make you progressive.

You are a traditional progressive metal fan. I respect that. But you have made three arguments here (that I see) I will address them individually.

First, and probably the most important, is that you do not think these bands are progressive, because progressive implies a 'complimentary style of playing in the band'. I am not sure what you mean by this, so we can discuss later.

Second, You have a personal issue with these new bands being grouped with the likes of Symphony X and Nevermore. I'll start by saying, both these bands are great, two of my favorite ever. But is Nevermore really a progressive metal band? They are interesting, sure, but I've always thought of them as definitively metal, but very difficult to classify. A couple of their songs have progressive elements, but I would actually consider any of the bands I've mentioned actually much more progressive. Let me clarify though, I'm a bigger Nevermore fan than I am of any of those bands. But more addressing the original point, just because a genre is turning in a direction you do not like, it is still turning in that direction. Granted, whether or not these bands are the direction prog metal is turning in is still under debate, but that is the thesis of this thread: This is the direction progressive metal is taking, this is the new progressive metal.

Three, '89,000 sweep arpeggios and breakdowns dont make you progressive.' The only band you have described here is dying fetus. None of the bands we are talking about here fit this bill.

Written by R'Vannith on 13.08.2012 at 10:04

I haven't heard any material from these bands but I wonder whether they are progressive within a metalcore context, or whether they are progressive as in they can be associated with the genre tagged as "progressive metal" at large. It may be the case that within metalcore that there is a growing tendency to include elements which aren't usually associated with the genre, though, as I said, I can't vouch for this as I'm not familiar with it. While you can usually identify what is meant by the tag "progressive metal" its certainly not as rigid as other genres so it is flexible enough to incorporate bands which base their sound in metalcore.

This is purely an assumption, perhaps a biased one as I generally don't enjoy whatever metalcore I've come across, but I would say that these bands don't extend themselves far enough from their metalcore sound in order to be considered under the "progressive" umbrella.


You haven't heard any material from these bands, but speculate that because you don't like metalcore, these bands should not be considered progressive? I will say this, the progressive tag is fairly flexible.

Uldreth, fair enough. Still, this stuff still doesn't strike me as trying to push the technical button. Technical bands are trying to constantly outdo each other and be the fastest and craziest, at least that's my experience. Protest the Hero, Periphery, and Between the Buried and Me (the ones i know best) have large scale and album wide theme development. That sounds more progressive than me than technical. Still, calling it tech metalcore is still viable I guess, because the music does tend towards technical. I still think 'Progressive Metal' is still the best tag for any of it.
----
http://thecephalogue.blogspot.com/
Nickferatu367

Posts: 1607

Age: 28
From: USA

  15.08.2012 at 05:47
Written by Uldreth on 14.08.2012 at 13:11


Credit goes to the prog metalcore scene for bands being actually very very different from each other, as they went out in different directions, which SHOULD BE what progressive is pretty much. If you look at Protest The Hero, Becoming The Archetype, SikTh, Misery Signals, Between The Buried And Me, The Human Abstract or perhaps even post-Constellations August Burns Red these are all pretty much progressive metalcore but they sound totally different from each other.




i'm not trying to start any significant problems, but what?? how can all those bands be progressive metalcore, but sound totally different than each other?? i understand how progressive death metal sounds somewhat different than progressive dark metal. but how do progressive metalcore bands sound totally different from each other?? if you sound totally different than one band, doesn't that put you in a different genre all together??
----
I will not reason and compare, my business is to create.
Nickferatu367

Posts: 1607

Age: 28
From: USA

  15.08.2012 at 06:14
Written by helofloki on 15.08.2012 at 03:10


You are a traditional progressive metal fan. I respect that. But you have made three arguments here (that I see) I will address them individually.

First, and probably the most important, is that you do not think these bands are progressive, because progressive implies a 'complimentary style of playing in the band'. I am not sure what you mean by this, so we can discuss later.

Second, You have a personal issue with these new bands being grouped with the likes of Symphony X and Nevermore. I'll start by saying, both these bands are great, two of my favorite ever. But is Nevermore really a progressive metal band? They are interesting, sure, but I've always thought of them as definitively metal, but very difficult to classify. A couple of their songs have progressive elements, but I would actually consider any of the bands I've mentioned actually much more progressive. Let me clarify though, I'm a bigger Nevermore fan than I am of any of those bands. But more addressing the original point, just because a genre is turning in a direction you do not like, it is still turning in that direction. Granted, whether or not these bands are the direction prog metal is turning in is still under debate, but that is the thesis of this thread: This is the direction progressive metal is taking, this is the new progressive metal.

Three, '89,000 sweep arpeggios and breakdowns dont make you progressive.' The only band you have described here is dying fetus. None of the bands we are talking about here fit this bill.

Written by R'Vannith on 13.08.2012 at 10:04

I haven't heard any material from these bands but I wonder whether they are progressive within a metalcore context, or whether they are progressive as in they can be associated with the genre tagged as "progressive metal" at large. It may be the case that within metalcore that there is a growing tendency to include elements which aren't usually associated with the genre, though, as I said, I can't vouch for this as I'm not familiar with it. While you can usually identify what is meant by the tag "progressive metal" its certainly not as rigid as other genres so it is flexible enough to incorporate bands which base their sound in metalcore.

This is purely an assumption, perhaps a biased one as I generally don't enjoy whatever metalcore I've come across, but I would say that these bands don't extend themselves far enough from their metalcore sound in order to be considered under the "progressive" umbrella.


You haven't heard any material from these bands, but speculate that because you don't like metalcore, these bands should not be considered progressive? I will say this, the progressive tag is fairly flexible.

Uldreth, fair enough. Still, this stuff still doesn't strike me as trying to push the technical button. Technical bands are trying to constantly outdo each other and be the fastest and craziest, at least that's my experience. Protest the Hero, Periphery, and Between the Buried and Me (the ones i know best) have large scale and album wide theme development. That sounds more progressive than me than technical. Still, calling it tech metalcore is still viable I guess, because the music does tend towards technical. I still think 'Progressive Metal' is still the best tag for any of it.


1.) are you a musician, because i'm using musical terminology than any basic band would know. i really dont know how easier to express complimentary, aside from just flowing off of each other. like when you're jamming around one guy comes up with a rhythm and another guy does lead for a bit, then they trade off. the lead playing off the strong points of the rhythm, therein making a very smooth sounding, artful work. when i describe "prog metalcore" as being competitive, i've seen some of these bands live. there is no sense of comradery, its just pretty much one guy trying as hard to make the other guy look like shit. it just creates a big clusterfuck of sound. hopefully that clears up that statement.

2.) yes, i do have a personal issue. it'd be like if someone tried to pair iced earth into the same category as metallica just because they are american metal bands. To add on a musical definition or sub-genre implicates that the band is taking notes or has similarities there to of other bands from the genre in which rooted from. Hence to say Between the Buried and Me is "PROGRESSIVE" Metalcore, is saying they take tabs off of symphony x, green carnation, opeth, and evergrey. I fail to see the influence of any of those bands in Between the Buried and Me. Maybe i'm not as musically inclined as i thought i was or maybe i just can't decipher it in the 20 time changes in 1 minute. And to segway over to the Nevermore statement. Listen to "Dreaming Neon Black", if you know anything about progressive metal, you know this album. These days there is no definition of "just metal". Even the godfathers like sabbath, priest, dio, and maiden have sub genres (those respectfully being Doom, heavy, power, nwobhm).

3.) Don't know what you're listening to mate, but a bunch of the no name kids who are trying to be the next big prog metalcore band seem to think the best way to do it is with horribly timed and placed breakdowns, and a bridge which is just scaling going a long with chugging on an open C power chord. maybe some of the 3 or 4 bands i keep reading of on this thread don't that, but the rest of the genre is speaking for them. kind of like how Shape of Despair and they're 4 chords per minute is speaking for the rest of Funeral Doom Metal.

As for R'van's statement. He's curious as to how one is able to derive effectively ANY progressive influence from any of these metalcore bands (in so many words). I think he's looking at it from the oxymoron stance. progressive: well versed, fluid, complimentary hooks with a solid, complex rhythm tied to vocals that aren't as bat shit insane as other genres. Metalcore: 100 times changes per average song length, every vocalist is doing the same thing, competitive instruments all around.

i'm hoping some of this has made at least the slightest of sense to you. if not, i'll be very glad to break down even more.
----
I will not reason and compare, my business is to create.
Uldreth

Posts: 960

Age: 20
From: Hungary
  15.08.2012 at 10:10
Written by Nickferatu367 on 15.08.2012 at 05:47



i'm not trying to start any significant problems, but what?? how can all those bands be progressive metalcore, but sound totally different than each other?? i understand how progressive death metal sounds somewhat different than progressive dark metal. but how do progressive metalcore bands sound totally different from each other?? if you sound totally different than one band, doesn't that put you in a different genre all together??

They have the odd-meter chugging and breakdowns as main rhythmic elements, the angry metalcore-ish screams as the main vocals and MANY of these bands put a very large emphasis on soft-harsh dynamics, that is the common thing.

The ways in which they are progressive, that is different.
----
Written by Troy Killjoy on 25.12.2011 at 07:06

And then of course there's Asking Alexandria... For the record, nobody ever asked Alexandria anything ever again.



-Troy on trancecore
Uldreth

Posts: 960

Age: 20
From: Hungary
  15.08.2012 at 10:15
Written by helofloki on 15.08.2012 at 03:10



Uldreth, fair enough. Still, this stuff still doesn't strike me as trying to push the technical button. Technical bands are trying to constantly outdo each other and be the fastest and craziest, at least that's my experience. Protest the Hero, Periphery, and Between the Buried and Me (the ones i know best) have large scale and album wide theme development. That sounds more progressive than me than technical. Still, calling it tech metalcore is still viable I guess, because the music does tend towards technical. I still think 'Progressive Metal' is still the best tag for any of it.

I am not talking about PTH/Periphery (that's more djent than metalcore though)/BTBAM (especially not BTBAM as I consider that to be more prog than metalcore anymore) because these bands ARE progressive in their songwriting and creativity. I am talking about a new direction in metalcore that's mainly rooted in/influenced by August Burns Red and early mathcore bands that don't employ very progressive tendencies but still exhibit some qualities of prog metalcore. Some of it gets called tech metalcore, and some of them get called progressive metalcore but if that "trend" continues, I'd be vary of putting them into progressive because they will essentially stop being it. I am mainly looking at bands like Northlane, Structures, Volumes, Erra, etc.
----
Written by Troy Killjoy on 25.12.2011 at 07:06

And then of course there's Asking Alexandria... For the record, nobody ever asked Alexandria anything ever again.



-Troy on trancecore
R'Vannith
Spiralmind

Posts: 2649

Age: 22
From: Australia

  15.08.2012 at 14:46
Written by helofloki on 15.08.2012 at 03:10

You haven't heard any material from these bands, but speculate that because you don't like metalcore, these bands should not be considered progressive? I will say this, the progressive tag is fairly flexible.


My speculation isn't based on the fact that I don't enjoy it, but on what I have heard from the metalcore genre as a whole. To me I find it unlikely that metalcore as a genre allows for much deviation from the elements which make up that genre. But, on the other hand, I haven't heard these bands you mention, so my opinion may change if I did.

The progressive tag may be flexible, but is metalcore flexible? Can something which may be associated with prog metal still be called metalcore?
helofloki

Posts: 184

Age: 29
From: USA
  15.08.2012 at 15:41
Written by Nickferatu367 on 15.08.2012 at 06:14


1.) are you a musician, because i'm using musical terminology than any basic band would know. i really dont know how easier to express complimentary, aside from just flowing off of each other. like when you're jamming around one guy comes up with a rhythm and another guy does lead for a bit, then they trade off. the lead playing off the strong points of the rhythm, therein making a very smooth sounding, artful work. when i describe "prog metalcore" as being competitive, i've seen some of these bands live. there is no sense of comradery, its just pretty much one guy trying as hard to make the other guy look like shit. it just creates a big clusterfuck of sound. hopefully that clears up that statement.

2.) yes, i do have a personal issue. it'd be like if someone tried to pair iced earth into the same category as metallica just because they are american metal bands. To add on a musical definition or sub-genre implicates that the band is taking notes or has similarities there to of other bands from the genre in which rooted from. Hence to say Between the Buried and Me is "PROGRESSIVE" Metalcore, is saying they take tabs off of symphony x, green carnation, opeth, and evergrey. I fail to see the influence of any of those bands in Between the Buried and Me. Maybe i'm not as musically inclined as i thought i was or maybe i just can't decipher it in the 20 time changes in 1 minute. And to segway over to the Nevermore statement. Listen to "Dreaming Neon Black", if you know anything about progressive metal, you know this album. These days there is no definition of "just metal". Even the godfathers like sabbath, priest, dio, and maiden have sub genres (those respectfully being Doom, heavy, power, nwobhm).

3.) Don't know what you're listening to mate, but a bunch of the no name kids who are trying to be the next big prog metalcore band seem to think the best way to do it is with horribly timed and placed breakdowns, and a bridge which is just scaling going a long with chugging on an open C power chord. maybe some of the 3 or 4 bands i keep reading of on this thread don't that, but the rest of the genre is speaking for them. kind of like how Shape of Despair and they're 4 chords per minute is speaking for the rest of Funeral Doom Metal.

As for R'van's statement. He's curious as to how one is able to derive effectively ANY progressive influence from any of these metalcore bands (in so many words). I think he's looking at it from the oxymoron stance. progressive: well versed, fluid, complimentary hooks with a solid, complex rhythm tied to vocals that aren't as bat shit insane as other genres. Metalcore: 100 times changes per average song length, every vocalist is doing the same thing, competitive instruments all around.

i'm hoping some of this has made at least the slightest of sense to you. if not, i'll be very glad to break down even more.


Thank you, that is very helpful. Yes I am a musician, studied classical composition in college. I guess we'll just continue with the 1,2,3, points.

1. I understand exactly what you are saying now. A progressive style developed from incredible band chemistry that goes beyond tightness. An aspect prevalent in Jazz, Blues and Jam music, but prog definitely tends to take its own separate flavor in this. If a band has this, it should be pretty clear live and you are saying that when you saw the bands being discussed, or bands influenced by the bands being discussed you saw no trace of this. So I can only speak for two out of the three bands I mentioned in the opening post. When I saw Protest The Hero live, I was a little disappointed, because I did realize much of their sound was derived from the one lead guitarist basically soloing over the entire song, but I did think the bassist and drummer had a good groove. BTBAM I was impressed by, but I can understand how their older stuff can come across as just The Red Chord style metalcore. And while all these bands are great in the studio and seem to have that complimentary fluid style there, but studios can make just about anyone sound good. The main argument I have for you is this: Complimentary style is just one element of progressive music. There are many other elements as well including theme development, impressive general musicianship, creative song construction, long form composition, and style experimentation. A good progressive metal band has a bit of all of these, often stronger in some areas than others. Again I think the bands discussed in my opening post fit the bill.

2. Dreaming Neon Black is an amazing album, I know it like the back of my hand. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Nevermore. Between the Buried and Me are actually taking a lot of cues from Opeth as well as reaching back to the progressive rock bands of the '69-'75 era. I would agree that they don't sound much like the Neo-classical symphony x/evergrey crowd. Periphery and Protest the Hero are both very influenced by Dream Theater and Periphery is obviously influenced by Meshuggah. While Meshuggah's prog status is certainly questionable, Periphery uses the influence in a very prog way making the heavy polymeter underbeats the 'complimentary style' over which the melody goes. Really though, with their new album they've expanded far beyond this. In fact Periphery II was what really prompted me to start this thread.

3. Now to address your other point. There are a lot of bands coming from the metalcore scene that want to identify with Between the Buried and Me, Periphery and the like. They call themselves mathcore or progressive metalcore and then play a song that just sounds like Unearth or As I Lay Dying. I agree, these bands are not progressive or even very technical at all for that matter and that's the shitty part of this. Metalcore bands have a history of not knowing what the fuck they are talking about. It's why we're so skeptical. They try to put a label on themselves, when really they should just play the music they like to play instead of trying to fit a genre they don't understand. The bands I mentioned at the top do understand. They are well versed professional musicians, they've been around the block. That they're fans are annoying, well, every band has annoying fans. I don't think these bands represent what I'm trying to explain here.


Written by R'Vannith on 15.08.2012 at 14:46


My speculation isn't based on the fact that I don't enjoy it, but on what I have heard from the metalcore genre as a whole. To me I find it unlikely that metalcore as a genre allows for much deviation from the elements which make up that genre. But, on the other hand, I haven't heard these bands you mention, so my opinion may change if I did.

The progressive tag may be flexible, but is metalcore flexible? Can something which may be associated with prog metal still be called metalcore?


Ah, you must have mixed up what some others have said with my argument. What I'm trying to say here is these bands are not metalcore bands. Metalcore happens to be one of their influences. But they are definitively prog metal. They have completely outgrown any kind of classification under the metalcore umbrella and should be considered prog.

Uldreth: Ah, sorry for the confusion. I'm pretty sure we're on the same page give or take.
----
http://thecephalogue.blogspot.com/
R'Vannith
Spiralmind

Posts: 2649

Age: 22
From: Australia

  15.08.2012 at 16:08
Written by helofloki on 15.08.2012 at 15:41

Ah, you must have mixed up what some others have said with my argument. What I'm trying to say here is these bands are not metalcore bands. Metalcore happens to be one of their influences. But they are definitively prog metal. They have completely outgrown any kind of classification under the metalcore umbrella and should be considered prog.


Thanks for the clarification, I see what you mean now. They are progressive metal bands which incorporate metalcore elements within their sound as opposed to metalcore bands using progressive elements.
Nickferatu367

Posts: 1607

Age: 28
From: USA

  16.08.2012 at 04:43
Written by Uldreth on 15.08.2012 at 10:10

Written by Nickferatu367 on 15.08.2012 at 05:47



i'm not trying to start any significant problems, but what?? how can all those bands be progressive metalcore, but sound totally different than each other?? i understand how progressive death metal sounds somewhat different than progressive dark metal. but how do progressive metalcore bands sound totally different from each other?? if you sound totally different than one band, doesn't that put you in a different genre all together??

They have the odd-meter chugging and breakdowns as main rhythmic elements, the angry metalcore-ish screams as the main vocals and MANY of these bands put a very large emphasis on soft-harsh dynamics, that is the common thing.

The ways in which they are progressive, that is different.


mmk. statement clarified
----
I will not reason and compare, my business is to create.
Nickferatu367

Posts: 1607

Age: 28
From: USA

  16.08.2012 at 04:51
Written by helofloki on 15.08.2012 at 15:41



3. Now to address your other point. There are a lot of bands coming from the metalcore scene that want to identify with Between the Buried and Me, Periphery and the like. They call themselves mathcore or progressive metalcore and then play a song that just sounds like Unearth or As I Lay Dying. I agree, these bands are not progressive or even very technical at all for that matter and that's the shitty part of this. Metalcore bands have a history of not knowing what the fuck they are talking about. It's why we're so skeptical. They try to put a label on themselves, when really they should just play the music they like to play instead of trying to fit a genre they don't understand. The bands I mentioned at the top do understand. They are well versed professional musicians, they've been around the block. That they're fans are annoying, well, every band has annoying fans. I don't think these bands represent what I'm trying to explain here.




the rest was well put together and made a logical and musical sense. just a little bit from the above quoted section is what stands out to me. the part "Metalcore bands have a history etc..." i have to agree fully. especially in my town. It is depressing when i think about it that a bunch of the kids in the scene around here (which are a bunch of gun-toting, fight starting, snot nosed brats) are being classified as metalheads and are disrespecting me, the bands playing, and everyone else associated with this scene. maybe it's personal vendetta on my part, i dunno. And there are bands out here that are playing "Prog-MC" (i'm sick of typing all that out), just cause it's the "in" thing and it'll get them signed if they're lucky. and very agreed about bands having annoying fans. i'll admit, to a lot of bands, i'm that fan.
----
I will not reason and compare, my business is to create.

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