Anything can be manipulated. education is no different. china teaches their students that world war 2 began in like 1927 when japan invaded the chinese mainland or something.

Written by Replicant on 07.12.2007 at 21:55

School education is breeding us all to take up jobs later in life and uphold the world economy and political systems etc. The fact that we learn other things is more of a "nice touch".

You've hit the nail on the head perfectly!!! we are taught to live, work and consume for the corporations in a capitalist world. we are not ever given the opportunity to think perhaps the whole government system/consumer society is wrong... everything we learn is to fit into society, but never are we taught to question society. Our mind's are being kept in place to never look at the world for what it really is, an overpopulated, elitist, economic slave society and we are helpless to change it because we are taught that is the right way from moment we are born.

Yes, most of what is related to ideologies is manipulated. That is something that is heavily influenced by the government, for example certain parts of US where creationism is taught, or Muslim countries, or URSS during the Cold War.

But the biggest problem with education isn't exactly that kids are being taught the "manipulated" side of History. The problem is that they don't learn to think for themselves. Since one of the biggest impacts school have on children is forming their opinion, if they only accept what is taught at school without discussing it, they will never create their own view of the world, which I think is the most important thing. With that, when they are shown manipulated information, they first analyze it, think if it is acceptable, and are able to defend their point if it goes against their beliefs ( which is what we are doing here by the way...).

Of course, what's done in totalitarian or teocratic regimes is teaching their ideologies AND not allowing discussion, or even acceptance of opposing beliefs. The result is an army of little robots who cannot do anything other than nod to every word of the government.

So, what can we do to educate our children? If the school does not allow a child to express their opinions, then that's something that must be discussed at home, and I mean discussing, not slapping what you call truth on the child's head (by oing that you willl be the same as the school...) . Now, if you live in a country where saying that "My country is not at the center of the universe" grants you a death penalty, then there isn't much that can be done......

Written by Guest on 26.12.2008 at 00:42

Yes, most of what is related to ideologies is manipulated. That is something that is heavily influenced by the government, for example certain parts of US where creationism is taught, or Muslim countries, or URSS during the Cold War.

But the biggest problem with education isn't exactly that kids are being taught the "manipulated" side of History. The problem is that they don't learn to think for themselves. Since one of the biggest impacts school have on children is forming their opinion, if they only accept what is taught at school without discussing it, they will never create their own view of the world, which I think is the most important thing. With that, when they are shown manipulated information, they first analyze it, think if it is acceptable, and are able to defend their point if it goes against their beliefs ( which is what we are doing here by the way...).

Of course, what's done in totalitarian or teocratic regimes is teaching their ideologies AND not allowing discussion, or even acceptance of opposing beliefs. The result is an army of little robots who cannot do anything other than nod to every word of the government.

So, what can we do to educate our children? If the school does not allow a child to express their opinions, then that's something that must be discussed at home, and I mean discussing, not slapping what you call truth on the child's head (by oing that you willl be the same as the school...) . Now, if you live in a country where saying that "My country is not at the center of the universe" grants you a death penalty, then there isn't much that can be done......

I will never forget what our spanish teacher (while I was living in Chile) said to us once: "You don't have to believe in what WE say, you have to look your own answers, maybe we are wrong, and if we are wrong, will you have the wrong answer all your life? NO!", that was creepy at first, but if you think about it...is true. When your teacher learned history, chemistry, etc...was a different time, in the University the same; so...is impossible to think that in 20-25 years some knowledge didn't change at all.

But in the "manipulation" stuff, I have to say: sometimes. I don't know how is the stuff in Asia or Africa, but at least here in Europe or America (and I mean the WHOLE america, not just the US) with Internet and globalization, you just have to read a little to understand a few not-so-clear topics, of course you must WANT to first, and I think that's the problem...in school they show us the solution and the problem (except in maths...grrr!!!), but first they should show us the problem...
Like Pink floyd sayd:
"We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone"

Written by Kanto on 27.12.2008 at 17:51

Written by Guest on 26.12.2008 at 00:42

Yes, most of what is related to ideologies is manipulated. That is something that is heavily influenced by the government, for example certain parts of US where creationism is taught, or Muslim countries, or URSS during the Cold War.

But the biggest problem with education isn't exactly that kids are being taught the "manipulated" side of History. The problem is that they don't learn to think for themselves. Since one of the biggest impacts school have on children is forming their opinion, if they only accept what is taught at school without discussing it, they will never create their own view of the world, which I think is the most important thing. With that, when they are shown manipulated information, they first analyze it, think if it is acceptable, and are able to defend their point if it goes against their beliefs ( which is what we are doing here by the way...).

Of course, what's done in totalitarian or teocratic regimes is teaching their ideologies AND not allowing discussion, or even acceptance of opposing beliefs. The result is an army of little robots who cannot do anything other than nod to every word of the government.

So, what can we do to educate our children? If the school does not allow a child to express their opinions, then that's something that must be discussed at home, and I mean discussing, not slapping what you call truth on the child's head (by oing that you willl be the same as the school...) . Now, if you live in a country where saying that "My country is not at the center of the universe" grants you a death penalty, then there isn't much that can be done......

I will never forget what our spanish teacher (while I was living in Chile) said to us once: "You don't have to believe in what WE say, you have to look your own answers, maybe we are wrong, and if we are wrong, will you have the wrong answer all your life? NO!", that was creepy at first, but if you think about it...is true. When your teacher learned history, chemistry, etc...was a different time, in the University the same; so...is impossible to think that in 20-25 years some knowledge didn't change at all.

But in the "manipulation" stuff, I have to say: sometimes. I don't know how is the stuff in Asia or Africa, but at least here in Europe or America (and I mean the WHOLE america, not just the US) with Internet and globalization, you just have to read a little to understand a few not-so-clear topics, of course you must WANT to first, and I think that's the problem...in school they show us the solution and the problem (except in maths...grrr!!!), but first they should show us the problem...
Like Pink floyd sayd:
"We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone"

Got to agree with you, here in Brazil things taught in school were never really manipulated to the point of being totally different from reality..or at least it's like that because I am one of the few in this country who have had a decent education and access to information...But I'll bet with you that in some parts of this country things may be as bad as in the poorest regions of Asia and Africa...

And I've got to say that your spanish teacher is one hell of a teacher..it's this kind of person that really makes the difference at the end...

Written by Guest on 27.12.2008 at 20:53
And I've got to say that your spanish teacher is one hell of a teacher..it's this kind of person that really makes the difference at the end...

After 10 years, that was the first time that I never fell asleep in a Spanish Class. I think the student (as the one who HAVE to learn for his/her future) has a big part on this, but the biggest is the teacher, because he is the closest and (it supposed to be) the best source of information on that subject, if he/she is an idiot, lazy, hard to understand or who knows what...that slowly "kills" the student actitude in the class.
But in Chile and Norway (as some people have told me) being a teacher is a "easy" job, because if you are smart, you can be a doctor...if you're not so smart and fail some stuff in the University, you can become a Biology teacher in a public school. So the future teached by you will be probably "not-so-good" too, an infinite circle then. I'm not saying that all the teachers are losers or they wanted to be something else, but if we have so many people arguing for a better education...something must happening out there

Written by Kanto on 29.12.2008 at 20:41

Written by Guest on 27.12.2008 at 20:53
And I've got to say that your spanish teacher is one hell of a teacher..it's this kind of person that really makes the difference at the end...

After 10 years, that was the first time that I never fell asleep in a Spanish Class. I think the student (as the one who HAVE to learn for his/her future) has a big part on this, but the biggest is the teacher, because he is the closest and (it supposed to be) the best source of information on that subject, if he/she is an idiot, lazy, hard to understand or who knows what...that slowly "kills" the student actitude in the class.
But in Chile and Norway (as some people have told me) being a teacher is a "easy" job, because if you are smart, you can be a doctor...if you're not so smart and fail some stuff in the University, you can become a Biology teacher in a public school. So the future teached by you will be probably "not-so-good" too, an infinite circle then. I'm not saying that all the teachers are losers or they wanted to be something else, but if we have so many people arguing for a better education...something must happening out there

But here's something I want to add...
It's not because people have master degree, or they are PhD at something that means they'll be good teachers....My best teachers so far didn't have anything more than master level, but they had more comprehension and critical sense of the world around them than any of the other ones...plus, they new how to talk to people....There are some professors I've come accross that were top in their area, but they didn't know how to express themselves or all they did was stare at you and overflow you with information, just like robots....those people didn't add anything to me as a person ( of course, I might have learned their subjects...but it's not like I've become a better human being because of them).

So, when you said "Biology teacher in a public school", I remembered something...
the first teacher who scolded me for being selfish and taught me how to work in a team, was a Biology ( Science actually....but he gave Biology classes too) teacher at a public school...

But I must agree that being taught by poor professors creates a vicious circle....

Yes, school is there to help us with education so we're not complete dumb fucks once we get out, but more for making sure we are prepared enough to actually do paperwork, either you like it or not. You like the assignment, fine go ahead and finish. Don't like the assignment, tough shit you have to do it or nothing positive is gonna come from it.

I actually agree on that matter...For instance the time when Bulgaria was taken over by the Ottomans for 500 years has always been named as Ottoman rule.Now I read that in the history books this event is being called Ottoman "prescence" just to satisfy the turkish immigrants in Bulgaria,who have currently taken high political ranks.The government wants to brainwash the youth to thinking that turks did not invade and slaughter our forefathers,but just came aroud for a cup of tea...

Of course the schools will want to influence their students in some way or another. It's called "teaching people how to fit in with society and accept the present cultural standards". Of course the schools will want us to share the values of those of high standing in society. It's only natural. Those with power will always try to push their values on the people they govern. But think about it, how boring wouldn't it be if they had to be 100% objective all the time and take all kinds of opinions and values into consideration. Hell, we'd probably be taught creationism alongside evolution, both that the holocaust did and did not happen at the same time, and both that communism works and Stalin was great, and that it doesn't work and America was blessed by God, all just to satisfy everyone...

You're right but I think that every country stands for it's opinions and values and those opinions and values should not be altered by foreigners,who have not contributed to this country in a positive way...

Well.. this is one thing I remembered clearly from high school economics... SWEDEN AND NORWAY HAVE BAD ECONOMIES you wouldn't want a socialistic economy where TAXES are EXTREMELY HIGH so all the money of your PAYCHECK goes to the GOVERNMENT.... so I told my teacher: If so how come I've never heard anybody complaining about the scandinavian economies... She told me: well.. you have to remember that the best economy is capitalism and obviously AMERICA is on the best stand point ECONOMICALLY ......this was about ........ 5 years ago..... so when I finally went to scandinavia.... obviously I can't judge because I don't live there but I did realized that alot of what that teacher told me was wrong XD in any matter I did realized XD that america has some places that are worst than a 3rd world countries..... I guess no education is perfect from my understanding.. i also don't agree that america's public school education generally speaking focuses alot on monolingualism which keeps people from getting a better understanding from other countries.. you start learning foreign languages in high school not since a young age...unless you go to a private school or go to a school where education is better.. I am personally talking from my personal experience.... and it was horrible.... I wish I could have learned languages since an earlier age.

Written by flickaa on 16.09.2009 at 01:54

I wish I could have learned languages since an earlier age.

amen to that, but i think it's the whole "our society is blessed by god, god bless america, the american people and the america-- i mean english language" thing acting, but not necessarily americans, not many people from english-speaking countries know other languages, and imo it's not good, i'm not saying turn everyone in a little polyglot but knowing even just one other language helps you understand other cultures better and lowers your xenophobia in most cases.

and about your economics teacher, hahahaha yeah fuckin right, if she jumps only on that aspect(that no economy should tax their people to hell) and ignores the fact that a state's economy works as a whole, then i guess she deserves her shit job, low taxes and shit medical insurance.

Here in CZ i was able to learn English since i was 7 years old...and my second lang (german) since 5th class which means 11 years old...

it is not a rule in our country, but there are opinions for it...

AMEN for Valentin B =)

it was so well said.. it made me smile.

School education is not manipulation it's sheer brainwashing tool...Though indeed strongly depends on the government, what i'm talking about is my own observations during fuckin school years...

EDIT: As for second languages, what can be more annoying than having to learn an awfull useless language like Arabic just because it's the language of Koran?

This is pretty much beating a dead horse but i'm gonna tell about something that happened in my 10th grade, there was this religious education teacher who said to us that Darwin and his theory of evolution wasn't true, that Darwin himself denied it worked until the end of his days, and now i wish i could just go back in time and explain the basic concept behind it all with a few drawings on the blackboard and voila all in about 5 minutes max. i wish i could light up some of these ignorant people's lives, cause it all seems so simple, but sometimes you're just talking to a wall.

Written by Valentin B on 16.09.2009 at 21:26

that Darwin and his theory of evolution wasn't true, that Darwin himself denied it worked until the end of his days, .......but sometimes you're just talking to a wall.

Some time ago, i was talking to a classmate about that, whose strongest reason to deny evolution was: "Look, if you don't mind being called a monkey, fine, but i DO". Well, when that's the simple-mindedness of an educated young person, what can be expected from others? Yes, you're MOSTLY talking to a wall...

Well we don't know whether there was evolution or anything else instead of it because we just don't know how it might have had worked....I personally believe that God was and is behind it and man was created according to God's image.....but that's just what I think.....I do not associate human with any animal....

About school.....it depends on the society and government....if you live in a society ruled by puritanical cult who is supported by 70% of amish farmers (who truly LOVE it....but well...they hardly get any education, music or culture anyway so it doesn't affect them...) then it's another thing indeed.....

In USSR religion was taboo....if you wanted to make career you would have to be a "closeted-religious" (not a problem for Estonians...we always were atheists and in every point Estonia was the number one and the best and most successful Soviet Republic)....nevertheless, both young and old people did follow religious practice either because the older generation still did or to show the independent way of thinking from the official "atheist" propaganda......

In my school everything was quite neutral.....it depends on the teacher, of course, but they cannot affect students at schools....what can affect young people is HOME, FRIENDS, MEDIA.....school is very irrelevant here....

If you really read every day in the paper that "US is wonderful, Russia is bad and will nuke you!" then if you grow up with it and if there is no guidance from parents plus if the friends are also like that, then the media and publicity is what affects the students.....

It is not that dangerous what is stuffed down your throat....it is what is firmly smeared on you from all your sides and fills you up with anger and hatred so that you don't even notice...and that's when we have moments such as "I hate THEM because they're such assholes? Why? Because they just ARE! Everyone knows that!" And it makes people happy....happy to think and say something bad....

Well....of course....there are school BOOKS which can be edited/altered to make it more "appropriate" for students to read.....then also...it depends on the neutrality of the teachers....a good teacher can make even the most ideologically tilted study materials more fair....but it takes a good strong teacher....as long as we have them, everything is under control.....and don't forget the guidance of parents....

I go to a Catholic school in the US. I guess I'm very lucky. Where I am, we aren't taught to be against evoulution. Every teacher I've had that has talked about evoulution has said that it makes sensse. I never knew until about last year that people were against the idea. What's wrong with thinking that God improves and changes things? As for history being used to put countries in a good light, every history teacher as well as my dad has said "the winners write the history books". In my elementary/middle school we were told about the killing of native Americans. No one tried to cover that up in my school. The teachers wanted us to know that the killing of Jews in WWII is just as much the fault of the gas manufactuers and bystanders' as it was Hitler's. I've been told countless times that Stalin was just as bad or worse that Hitler. In the fith grade we learned about Islam, and we're taught that it's a peaceful religion, and that terrorist are just extreamists who have really really misinderstood the religion's mesages. Our teachers taught that Christian crusades we pointless violence too. In my classes we often get so into discusions that we'd just forget what we were supposed to be learning. If we were talking about radioactivity in science, we'd end up debating on enery problems for the rest of the week. Maybe I just haven't seen enough of school yet as I've only just started high school, or maybe I've just been lucky, but in my schools, I've never seen a teacher force beliefs on anyone. I wish that all schools could be unbiased,

Well I don't think they should force you to learn a language for religious purposes that's BS however I can understand why catholic schools likewise middle eastern countries they force you to learn the language of the bible/koran... etc in order for you to get a deeper understanding of what those holy scriptures are trying to express..... I personally think that's not right, because I don't support religion but I can understand why they do it. When you translate languages, it is often difficult to get the meaning behind it or the overall feel for it when it has been translated. Yet, in any matter I have heard that Arab poetry it is very difficult to write and supposely very structured... I cannot judge it myself because I don't know Arabic but I completely agree with you (Aiwi....)

Written by tieka on 19.09.2009 at 07:32

What's wrong with thinking that God improves and changes things?

the problem of evolution theory is, that it elementary says it is NOT directed by God...is says it occurs naturally and kinda randomly (you can never really predict a dna mutation which improves species' survival chance and makes it "better")...only you may imagine, if you believe, that some "God" in the beginning set the rules for evolution

it is like some simple artificial intelligence systems (you may imagine some dots "living" on screen...seeking for "food" (some other dots appearing on screen)...mating and creating descendants...) - you program the code, set the rules (how many dots, how much food), then you launch it and observe what is happening (which dots "die" because of starvation, which havent any descendants and which are successful)...but you in general cannot modify and control it while it is running...i once saw such a program, it was nice to "play" with it

Written by tieka on 19.09.2009 at 07:32

What's wrong with thinking that God improves and changes things?

the problem of evolution theory is, that it elementary says it is NOT directed by God...is says it occurs naturally and kinda randomly (you can never really predict a dna mutation which improves species' survival chance and makes it "better")...only you may imagine, if you believe, that some "God" in the beginning set the rules for evolution

it is like some simple artificial intelligence systems (you may imagine some dots "living" on screen...seeking for "food" (some other dots appearing on screen)...mating and creating descendants...) - you program the code, set the rules (how many dots, how much food), then you launch it and observe what is happening (which dots "die" because of starvation, which havent any descendants and which are successful)...but you in general cannot modify and control it while it is running...i once saw such a program, it was nice to "play" with it

But you know what..... the problem is that there is an awfully amount of people who believe that the bible is the truth in relation to the theory of evolution... christians are now using alot of anthropological theory that at the end it leads to god being the creator of humanity..etc, which in my opinion is completely bullshit when you evidently have fossils to prove them wrong, in addition that human evolution has nothing to do with religion.. its more of a slow processes of evolution of the species in relation to their environment, also when christianity isn't the only existing religion to believe in ( not that I care for religion).. what really pisses me off is when christians strictly believe that their religion is right? I don't understand.. the world is so diverse and big with all sorts of beliefs .... and whenever I start talkin about paganism just to prove that their really doesnt mean sheisse to other people ... they look at me like i'm a weirdo... That is why religion shouldn't be part of any educational institution,,, children are at a disadvantange by being placed in schools where religion is taught... and they immediately get brainwashed without a choice....... if not they're doing them a favor by dissapointing them from their religious beliefs and obviously loosing their believers ( like my dad =) ).

Written by flickaa on 23.09.2009 at 19:22

there is an awfully amount of people who believe that the bible is the truth

i dont understand this...i bet noone of them would believe a word from Greek or Viking mythology...but mythology of Jews and early Christians they accept with no doubt...unlike some people i am not saying Holy Bible is the book of evil...but for me, it is just a beautiful fantasy story, nothing more...only based on some real situations...but Greek myths are too...

I really like the topic title. I think it is RIGHT, to me the School education in MY country is like that. Evenmore, I wonder is that because the topic creator, from Romania, ex- or-still-Communistic country, and my country, based is or maybe has same attitute on the kind of they educate us, so we can have the same thought. Just a guess.

I must say nothing is Abosulte 100% or 0%,no country education is 100% good or bad, no any has 100% of manipulation or 0%. Even in a Western country, some education of religion can be a form of manipulation, but for academic school no, or reversely
What I really learn after returning from my Internship, is when I attended in a class, one lecture was about Culture, it says: what the Society defines right or wrong, the individual has their own definition and can be different. And from that I reflect on my country, everything Society thinks it is GOOD or right, all other my country individual must follow. That is why I think education is form of Manipulation, because education is purposely to teach people what the Society suppose to be true, even someday, Damn, it can be changed differently. At least, that is what I think about my country education. Others I dont know, maybe not for the country where I done the intern.

Yeah the school sucks they can go to hell.

Written by Damnated on 25.05.2006 at 13:11

I mean the education what we recieve in schools. What do you think? IMO education is manipulation, cuz we learn what the government tells us, and the simple fact that sometimes history books are different in countries, makes you think, or not?

Is it too late to change this to a poll? Obviously, people have been interested in this thread for the past few years. The majority of the posts I read are in favor of your idea. Or maybe it's just common sense like stupid breeding stupid. Just like strolling down the streets of San Angelo, Texas in 2004; Bush signs in every yard. Some people didn't know why, but their neighbors were for Bush and that was good enough.

My classmates didn't know why they were for Bush, but the teachers told them Kerry was an idiot and the teachers are clearly more knowledgeable.

And Evolution? In conservative midwest Texas?! No, we had evolution for a week in Elementary and it was made to leave a bad impression, like something that isn't REALLY happening.

School manipulation? Oh yeah, the government wants to churn out dumb children, hoping that only a few intelligent ones pass through the cracks. They don't want to be questioned. Testing standards have dropped in certain schools in the United States just to raise the level of passing students.

Yeeees! I did not like school always. School - ....! My Academy is better now for me.

Yes, but not necessarily.
trying to teach facts, tools of critical thinking, etc
Is excellent.