Written by marinBG on 18.06.2006 at 22:16

It is really a bit strange how the scene is totally different here in Europe and in the States... here the audience is much more true... i think its all about tradition... European people are more traditional in general and the yankees know nothing about tradition, cause they basicly don't really have one

P.S.: don't be offended... it's true!

Yes, we Yanks are so new to the world that we didn't arrive on the map until 10 years after Sabbath gave birth to metal.

Actually, you are utterly, thoroughly, and completely WRONG in regards to our "lack of tradition" - it's a simple case of our tradition is different than yours.

European metal shows the influence of Classical Music.

American metal has typically shown the influences of the Blues, a style that spawned in America.

And I'm not going to bother expounding on the "And the audience is more true" comment. Frankly, it's just yet another pathetic widesweeping generalization from an undereducated individual on a thread already rife with rampant stupidity.



Some of the thoughts posed on this thread inspired me to borrow the following quote from Billy Madison.


"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

@Bitter COld, while I agree with you that marinBG's post was oversimplified, I just have to note that Black Sabbath was mainly blues-influenced

But yes, it's ridiculous to say that Americans have no musical tradition, when they are the nation that spawned rock'n'roll as a fusion of blues, African rhythms, jazz and all the various other forms of music that emerged among the African-American population during the 19th and 20th centuries. I still consider metal to be an offshoot of rock'n'roll, though I'm sure some won't agree.

It's also ridiculous how there are still people who think Elvis came up with rock'n'roll, people who've never heard of Chuck Berry, Little Richard etc.

Written by Twilight on 18.06.2006 at 22:28

I'm not really offended. But when I was younger I was listening to electronic music, no metal at all. So I can't say anything about these traditions.

What I meant to say was as mentality of the people in general Europeans are more traditional and conservative. Whit its good sides and its bad sides.

I think that the main difference is that in the states the harder music is somewhat more mixed and not separted from the rest of the music, which put the true metal a bit in isolation. I mean in gigs in Europe still the audience is mainly people with long hairs and black clothes with a lots and lots of black band t-shirts, while in the States you don't see that really. There the metalhead stereotype is not that big and most of the people that listen to heavy music wear jeans and colorful t-shirts. So the metal scene is not so separated and being true is not so important, so its easier for the new things to make thier way true and there are a lot less people that would say: "This is not the true sound!"
But don't get me wrong, I defenetly prefer Europe despite the fact that I'm into the nu stuff also. That's probably because of my long hair and black clothers

P.S.: and of course someone can listen to the music for the solos! Otherwise nobody would be listening to Malsteen, Dream Theather or Vai... be openminded people... different people like different things and that might include solos you know DUH!

Written by Stigmatized on 18.06.2006 at 20:14

Written by _HIV_ on 03.06.2006 at 10:30

becouse its not considered as "true" ... but i think thats a bounch of bullshit! i don't understand why they think iron maiden as metal!

Isn't Iron Maiden about as metal as you can get? You don't consider them metal?

no ... iron maiden are pure shit to me! and im absolutly sirious ... but what can i do most people like em!

Written by _HIV_ on 19.06.2006 at 16:37

Written by Stigmatized on 18.06.2006 at 20:14

Written by _HIV_ on 03.06.2006 at 10:30

becouse its not considered as "true" ... but i think thats a bounch of bullshit! i don't understand why they think iron maiden as metal!

Isn't Iron Maiden about as metal as you can get? You don't consider them metal?

no ... iron maiden are pure shit to me! and im absolutly sirious ... but what can i do most people like em!

Well, everyone has their own tastes, though this is quite suprising.

Well, apart from the respect they deserve and I have for them, I'm not really fond of them. But that could also be said for about every Gothic band, Power & Heavy with a few exceptions.

But Iron Maiden IS metal. Noone can deny that. The fact that you don't like them doesn't change anything.

and for me ... nu-metal is metal! see its like two-edged sword

Written by _HIV_ on 19.06.2006 at 20:26

and for me ... nu-metal is metal! see its like two-edged sword

Somewhere in there you lost me. So nu-metal is metal and Iron Maiden is not metal? Just.. wtf? Please care to explain.

heh ... jp! for me

i never liked them ... thats why i probably never fit in metal sociaty! kinda don't like me for disliking iron maiden!
heh .. i dont give a fuck, i dont like em. but im not forcing anybody to hate them! everybody's got their own thing! dont worry be happy

Let's try to keep this to Alternative metal as opposed to "is Maiden really metal or not" (which is beyond debate if you ask me)

And Ur-Nammu - dead on about Sabbath. They used to be a blues band named "Earth" before changing their path.

It could be argued that "European Tradition" as it pertains to metal is nothing more than taking an American tradition and fusing it with some of their own influences.

Blues -> Rock -> Metal (a la Sabbath) -> <insert various metal offshoot genres here>

I guess that kind of blows up the 'we have tradition, you yanks have none' crap.

Written by W-Lash on 19.06.2006 at 00:02


And MS is a place where are lots of black/death lovers and they don't like this alternative too. That's why so little people post in alternative threads.

I am a huge black and death lover and I also like quite a few so-called alt-metal bands. Okay not the top 40 alt-metal such as Slipknot and Rammstein but bands such as Dillinger Escape Plan, Tool, Burst, The End, Burnt by the Sun, Mr. Bungle, Fantomas, Last Crack, so original and good alt-metal bands...

And I don't think it has to do with being European or not, because I happen to know a lot of black death metal fans (Dutch in this case) who can also dig good alt-metal.
And lemme tell you, alt-metal such as Dillinger and Tool is quite big around here in this country.

Hmmm...everybody mention Dillinger Escape Plan. Is it so good? Maybe i should listen some songs (just to know what's that). Any suggestions about the best album [sorry for offtopic]?

Calculating Infinity and Miss Machine are both very good. Though I think some songs on Miss Machine will sound to you like nu-metal or anything. So if you want to hear what they are like I recommend songs like 'Panasonic Youth', '43% Burnt', 'The Perfect Design' and 'Sugar Coated Sour'.
I just love their hyperactivity, while keeping it so technical.

Written by _HIV_ on 19.06.2006 at 21:26

heh ... jp! for me

i never liked them ... thats why i probably never fit in metal sociaty! kinda don't like me for disliking iron maiden!
heh .. i dont give a fuck, i dont like em. but im not forcing anybody to hate them! everybody's got their own thing! dont worry be happy

You're 100% fight, nobody can make that a group fit in the taste of someone, for example i like slipknot but i recognizes that are many bands with highest level than them, the fact is that many metalheads are intolerant to the other people ideas or commentaries, in many forums, the debate become in an agressive attack. By god almighty, the people can't like death, black, heavy, nu, etc as we like, if you want to listen rob zombie evry hour of every day, NOBODY can make you change. Keep it Hard HIV

I can't stand hardcore screams or rapping in metal. I like Rammstein because they have a talented and expressive singer and I like their music too (though It's not technical or tr00, it's catchy and fits the miliitaristic feeling of the music). I also quite like Tool. Alot of alt band have talented members but something, almost always the vocalist, ruins it for me.

Would I be right in saying alt metal subgenres tends to have outside influences from more mainstream and often American genres such as rap, electronica and hardcore punk, whilst true metal subgenres' outside influences tend to come from more elitist genres than metal, suhc as classical and folk.

Written by Guest on 05.07.2006 at 18:19

Would I be right in saying alt metal subgenres tends to have outside influences from more mainstream and often American genres such as rap, electronica and hardcore punk, whilst true metal subgenres' outside influences tend to come from more elitist genres than metal, suhc as classical and folk.

I wouldn't exactly call Electronica or Hardcore Punk "American" - electronica is not exactly limited to the left side of the Atlantic, and hardcore punk also has some English roots (Charged GBH, The Exploited) as well.

And you owe me $15 for a new keyboard... I spit up my coffee when you defined "Folk" as "elitist."

Written by Guest on 05.07.2006 at 18:19

I can't stand hardcore screams or rapping in metal. I like Rammstein because they have a talented and expressive singer and I like their music too (though It's not technical or tr00, it's catchy and fits the miliitaristic feeling of the music). I also quite like Tool. Alot of alt band have talented members but something, almost always the vocalist, ruins it for me.

Would I be right in saying alt metal subgenres tends to have outside influences from more mainstream and often American genres such as rap, electronica and hardcore punk, whilst true metal subgenres' outside influences tend to come from more elitist genres than metal, suhc as classical and folk.

hardcore Punk is not Mainstream...you're thinking of screamo and metalcore...hardcore is bands like negative Approach,Teen Idles,Youth of Today,Minor Threat,American Nightmare,Refused, Kill Your Idols...all DIY independent bands...so i think you need to stick to having Dungeons and Dragons circle Jerks with your sooo "elite Metal" Pals...and shut up about Hardcore and Punk...because you dont know what you're talking about

Written by BitterCOld on 05.07.2006 at 21:39

And you owe me $15 for a new keyboard... I spit up my coffee when you defined "Folk" as "elitist."

LOL, yeah the first thing u learn in an art history class is that folk and elite are polar opposites.
Ignorance is fun for all people involved, the ignorant one lives in bliss and people with some knowledge can have a good laugh

Written by jupitreas on 05.07.2006 at 22:41

Written by BitterCOld on 05.07.2006 at 21:39

And you owe me $15 for a new keyboard... I spit up my coffee when you defined "Folk" as "elitist."

Ignorance is fun for all people involved, the ignorant one lives in bliss and people with some knowledge can have a good laugh

And start banging their heads against the wall in sheer and utter frustration

Written by BitterCOld on 05.07.2006 at 21:39

I wouldn't exactly call Electronica or Hardcore Punk "American" - electronica is not exactly limited to the left side of the Atlantic, and hardcore punk also has some English roots (Charged GBH, The Exploited) as well.

Electronica has roots on both side I would think. For instance, a lot of early techno came from Detroit and Chicago, especially the former. And then of course we have the European contribution to electronic music as a whole. It just seems to me that Europe has come out with the better end product. Or rather, European forms of music utilizing electronic/mechanical devices are more suited to my tastes than their American cousins.

Written by Stigmatized on 19.06.2006 at 17:33

Written by _HIV_ on 19.06.2006 at 16:37

Written by Stigmatized on 18.06.2006 at 20:14

Written by _HIV_ on 03.06.2006 at 10:30

becouse its not considered as "true" ... but i think thats a bounch of bullshit! i don't understand why they think iron maiden as metal!

Isn't Iron Maiden about as metal as you can get? You don't consider them metal?

no ... iron maiden are pure shit to me! and im absolutly sirious ... but what can i do most people like em!

Well, everyone has their own tastes, though this is quite suprising.

w8 a second! every body can have its own opinions......... but everything has its limits!!!! you may not like Iron Maiden but call them "Not Metal" thats just stupid, such a blasfemy!

dude...really shut up with the iron maiden fights..its fucking old....they're metal..so someone doesnt like em or consider them metal...so what?...let's cry about it...

anways...this has already been covered but..

alot of people bash on alternative metal...because like bitter cold said...these douchebags assume alternative metal is only nu metal shit like static X and slipknot.,alternative Metal is bands like,Melvins,Isis,Helmet,Rwake,Mastodon,Converge,...and if you wanna get technical..Grindcore could be considered Alternative Metal...because it was the Happy medium between Punk and Metal...Napalm Death considers themselves a Punk band..Barney Greenway and Shane embury have said so themselves...anways fuck true metalheads...they wanna be ignorant let em...I Can Just turn around and make fun of them because their' mother caught them sodomizing themselves' with a He-man action figure while listening to Manowar or Jag Panzer

Written by BitterCOld on 05.07.2006 at 21:39

Written by Guest on 05.07.2006 at 18:19

Would I be right in saying alt metal subgenres tends to have outside influences from more mainstream and often American genres such as rap, electronica and hardcore punk, whilst true metal subgenres' outside influences tend to come from more elitist genres than metal, suhc as classical and folk.

I wouldn't exactly call Electronica or Hardcore Punk "American" - electronica is not exactly limited to the left side of the Atlantic, and hardcore punk also has some English roots (Charged GBH, The Exploited) as well.

And you owe me $15 for a new keyboard... I spit up my coffee when you defined "Folk" as "elitist."

I knwo folk is the oposite of classical. But how many trendies do you find listening to real folk (exclusing the acoustic rock/pop type of music). You're more likely to hear metal ont he radio than world music.

Written by Guest on 05.07.2006 at 22:06

Written by Guest on 05.07.2006 at 18:19

I can't stand hardcore screams or rapping in metal. I like Rammstein because they have a talented and expressive singer and I like their music too (though It's not technical or tr00, it's catchy and fits the miliitaristic feeling of the music). I also quite like Tool. Alot of alt band have talented members but something, almost always the vocalist, ruins it for me.

Would I be right in saying alt metal subgenres tends to have outside influences from more mainstream and often American genres such as rap, electronica and hardcore punk, whilst true metal subgenres' outside influences tend to come from more elitist genres than metal, suhc as classical and folk.

hardcore Punk is not Mainstream...you're thinking of screamo and metalcore...hardcore is bands like negative Approach,Teen Idles,Youth of Today,Minor Threat,American Nightmare,Refused, Kill Your Idols...all DIY independent bands...so i think you need to stick to having Dungeons and Dragons circle Jerks with your sooo "elite Metal" Pals...and shut up about Hardcore and Punk...because you dont know what you're talking about

OK hardcore as it is isn't mainstream. I meant screamo etc.

What's wrong with playing Dungeons and Dragons? But, as for metal goes, hardcore is much more mainstream than other types of metal. It may not be mainstream when compared to Nickelback, or some crap like that, but when the host of the biggest metal show on tv right now, Headbangers Ball, is the lead singer for Hatebreed, it definitely shows you that hardcore is getting popular.

Written by Asat0r on 26.07.2006 at 06:24

What's wrong with playing Dungeons and Dragons? But, as for metal goes, hardcore is much more mainstream than other types of metal. It may not be mainstream when compared to Nickelback, or some crap like that, but when the host of the biggest metal show on tv right now, Headbangers Ball, is the lead singer for Hatebreed, it definitely shows you that hardcore is getting popular.

Hardcore IS Getting Popular..i'll give you that...However.90% of those bands are either Metalcore or Screamo...you never see a band like Kill Your Idols with an oldschool traditional sound on TV. hardcore isnt any more mainstream than metal ... Metallica is the biggest band in the world...but you're right,Metal isnt Mainstream,Nu Metal was the biggest thing a while back...so i guess i can associate all metal with Nu Metal and say Metal is mainstream as a whole...seeing how you're gonna pidgeonhole hardcore and say it's trendy just because a bunch of shitty screamo and metalcore bands are on Fuse..there's mainstream bands and underground bands for every genre...not just Metal....remember that

Written by Guest on 26.07.2006 at 23:23

Written by Asat0r on 26.07.2006 at 06:24

What's wrong with playing Dungeons and Dragons? But, as for metal goes, hardcore is much more mainstream than other types of metal. It may not be mainstream when compared to Nickelback, or some crap like that, but when the host of the biggest metal show on tv right now, Headbangers Ball, is the lead singer for Hatebreed, it definitely shows you that hardcore is getting popular.

Hardcore IS Getting Popular..i'll give you that...However.90% of those bands are either Metalcore or Screamo...you never see a band like Kill Your Idols with an oldschool traditional sound on TV. hardcore isnt any more mainstream than metal ... Metallica is the biggest band in the world...but you're right,Metal isnt Mainstream,Nu Metal was the biggest thing a while back...so i guess i can associate all metal with Nu Metal and say Metal is mainstream as a whole...seeing how you're gonna pidgeonhole hardcore and say it's trendy just because a bunch of shitty screamo and metalcore bands are on Fuse..there's mainstream bands and underground bands for every genre...not just Metal....remember that

You're right, my bad. I often get metalcore, screamo, and hardcore all confused.

no worries bro...now you know...and knowing is half the Battle

I'm gonna tell you why alternative metal is not popular here. Do you remember the Headbanged comics that CollisonInMind made? Do you remember Percy, the angsty metalcore/nu metal teen whose hobby was hanging out at the mall? Well there you go. That's your answer. Because tr00 metalheds judge music on the base of their listeners. Just because some genre has a great mass of listeners they believe it sucks and they will be übertr00 for not listening to it. And because they believe all nu metal fans are like Percy, and yes, actually there is some truth in that otherwise that kind of stereotype would not be exsting, and people like that are just little teens knowing nothing about music. I mean, I just can't take that crap. Like that thread that exists what shit you hear as a metalhead - I actually hear greater shit by tr00 metalheads by how false I am for listening to metalcore and nu metal and genres such, but when they realise I'm not a complete retard because I also listen to so called tr00 metal, such as thrash, black, gothic etc. they shut up. That just annoys me.

That is a good point, I would agree that the audience influences the decision, perhaps as much as the band's music itself. Although, that can be re-routed back to the main reason why - an awful lot of metal fans are absolutely ignorant.