Like I said, funnier shit on Youtube.

It's a "false statistic" to say they are jealous of people who have more than them and want shit for free? yet every site with an 'unofficial' list of demands (they don't have any set ideology or list) pushes for people with more to sacrifice unto them.

they want to be paid $40k (per one occupywallstreet.org site) whether employed OR NOT... what part of that doesn't sound like unabashed jealousy and greed?

money for nuthin' and the spliffs for free.

Alright, I'll take your word for it that you actually saw something like that on some website on the internets, but considering I have heard no such demand, I really doubt it is a widespread belief. And, my false statistic was pointed at the "All Americans are in the top 1%" statement, but whatever. Don't you find it a little greedy that these CEO billionaires continue to fight for their nice little 15% tax on a huge part of their income, less than the average worker pays? It's just that they don't have to take to the streets to get their demands met, they just throw a couple bills to the politicians, and no change is made.
Doesn't the fact that some doctors, University professors, and even billionaires like Warren Buffett agree that there are some unfair practicing going around derail the argument that these are just jealous people. Isn't it possible that one or two of the people out there geniunely want what is best for America, and think this is the best way?

All I am saying, this is a deeper, and more complicated issue than you seem to make of it. You're not going dismiss the entire protest on the point of some website you saw. There are 2 sides of this. I guess I'll be done with this thread, since I seem to be the only one takign the other side. Down with smelly protests!

You're the only one "taking their side" because you're the only 17-year-old American with underemployed parents posting on a metal forum.

I mean I get it, the recession sucks, people aren't making enough money, education is too expensive, etc. etc. etc.

Problems exist. Some people rise above it all. My uncle, now a multi-millionaire, was orphaned at 11 years old in England and worked his way up the ladder of life from there. The fact that people like him make shit work with literally next to nothing while people with jobs and family are protesting "the system" because they're in the red is ludicrous.

Written by JCJen7 on 12.10.2011 at 08:49
There are 2 sides of this. I guess I'll be done with this thread, since I seem to be the only one takign the other side. Down with smelly protests!

clearly i am the deranged one, amirite?

proposed demands

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

Lloyd J Hart 508-687-9153




... so open our borders to everyone, pay for everyone's education... then pay them $40k a year to sit on their ass. this list of "demands" is beyond high comedy.

Written by BitterCOld on 12.10.2011 at 09:06
Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
Free college education.
Two trillion dollars spending now.
Open borders migration.
Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all.

That's actually insane.

Written by BitterCOld on 12.10.2011 at 09:06

Written by JCJen7 on 12.10.2011 at 08:49
There are 2 sides of this. I guess I'll be done with this thread, since I seem to be the only one takign the other side. Down with smelly protests!

Demands

Ok i guess 1 more comment haha.
that was a thread on their forum. They even threw a disclaimer at the top of the page saying "Calm your shit everyone, 1 user submitted this, it's over-hyped, these are not our demands". 1 guy believes that BitterC0ld, that's all it took for that forum to get there. As you can see from the comments, no one agrees with most of those things.

But hey, you tricked one person ^^.

Obviously you're not deranged, I am just saying there is another side. I understand the other side of the stance I have taken on this argument. That the economy will work it's way out of the recession, and that Washington will stabilize itself given time, and given a harder working society. I personally disagree.

And Troy, I personally do not believe it is my current situation that shaped my ideals. I really, very honestly, don't care all that much about my families financial situation. I got some nice clothes, some nice headphones, make some spending money, yadda yadda yadda. I used that as an argument for non-lazy people getting in a tough situation, not a sob story about why I believe a certain way. BTdubs, for every rich uncle story, there is 1000 people that work equally as hard and are still in huge debt with no way of paying it off.

I mean, for the last time, I do not completely agree with everything that these people have been said to stand for. I simply have found it worth my while to 'understand' and to...well, rant on the internet about, them being there. The number of disenfranchised citizens in the country has grown, 40% of the people in this country own .3% of the wealth, while the top 1% owns 50%. That is ludicrous compared to other well off countries (Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway) and is even radically unequal compared to the poorest of countries (Somalia, Ghana, Ethiopia). All I am saying is, I think these people have a right to be a little...angsty. Maybe their not handling it the best, but there's a reason behind it.

They still posted it as unofficial demands - embarrassed enough by their statements so as to put up the disclaimer.

and the economy will improve once DC steps the fuck back. just like it did in the 80's. and 20's. unless we get 15+ years of interfering rule like we did with FDR, in which case it will last until your 40s.

as for "people in debt" - i feel for those that spent within their means and lost their job. i sure don't for people who maxed credit cards to spend well beyond what they could possibly pay for so they could get a McMansion or their nice big HD flatscreen. Fuck them.

Even your sisters... where did they go to school to rack up that debt? bet it would have been much closer to my debt had they gone down to Eugene or Corvallis.

these people have a right to be "angsty" - but they are nothing but tools of the gov't deflecting criticism from the biggest and most obvious target. the ones pissing away tax dollars on bullshit projects like Solyndra, or Nancy Pelosi's $900/week flying bar tab.

"handling it the best" -



defecating on a po-po squad car? yeah. that's not handling it well.


they don't even know what the fuck they want... and that's the legit ones there, never mind the richie students out for a break, drug users looking to score, or wanted individuals looking to duck warrant heat. hell, in Boston they arrested 100... because the original protest leader had a relationship with the police and warned them anarchists were set on infiltrating the movement for malefic intent.

Gah i have a sickness.
Those are open forums. I think that should basically end that. Our family had much more money when my sisters went to school. However, we're a small case, and I completely admit that my family has always been a little frustratingly (whatever the word is for non-frugal. I don't know if liberal would be the right term or not) with our money.

And uh, if you're gonna sit there and argue that the country would have been better off had the likes of Hoover continued being president, well, no wonder we disagree on this so much. We have very differant opinions. For the last time, stop attacking individual protesters. Yeah, some people in America use drugs, and some of those people are at the protests. Some people have a warrant probably, I just don't understand how a guy shitting on a cop car has anything to do with the other people at the protests. Whatever, I think this argument has basically run its course.

The Official OWS Anthem:

?? What's the joke ??

and just sayin, one of the stressed part of the OWS is it is a direct democracy movement. There's no official leader, anthem, or set of demands (nice try on that one though BC).

It's not a joke. The theme of that song is frustration. I thought it appropriate to declare it the official theme song of these protesters.

Troy has good point. None of these protest would have happened without the economic crisis, and that's pretty sad. They had to wait till the Governement couldn't pay their bills to take concience of the problem western society has. Their passivity is to blame.

Now they are all frustated coz they realised the state ain't that wonderfull entity that resolved all their problems like before.

Just read an article where some protesters were visiting rich suburbs and other rich districts demanding them to pay more. Same shit happened in spain. Who the fuck are they to knock on someones door and ask him to pay more ? I think I remember a similar situation.... oh yeah, it was early 20th century somewhere in eastern europe.... we all know how it ended

Written by BitterCOld on 12.10.2011 at 09:47

and the economy will improve once DC steps the fuck back. just like it did in the 80's. and 20's. unless we get 15+ years of interfering rule like we did with FDR, in which case it will last until your 40s.

Okay, this libertarian bullshit about how "government should just step the fuck back and let the free market work its magic" just bugs the shit out of me. If Ayn Rand's economic theories were true, we should be living in a golden age by now. Does this look like a golden age to you? Oh, and the examples of when "government stepped the fuck back" are laughable. When the government "stepped the fuck back" during the 20s, Wall Street decided to play dangerous games with the world's money, which is exactly what they did before the current recession started. Then there's this talk about how giving the super rich enough money will benefit everyone else that started back in the 80s. We gave the rich shitloads of money and they just kept it for themselves. The money didn't trickle down at all. If anything trickled down, it was massive trails of piss that were falling on the heads of those less fortunate.

Written by BitterCOld on 12.10.2011 at 09:47

but they are nothing but tools of the gov't deflecting criticism from the biggest and most obvious target. the ones pissing away tax dollars on bullshit projects like Solyndra, or Nancy Pelosi's $900/week flying bar tab.

And yet you say nothing about the trillion dollar tax cuts that only benefited the super rich and screwed over everyone else.

Written by [user id=5630] on 12.10.2011 at 20:10

And yet you say nothing about the trillion dollar tax cuts that only benefited the super rich and screwed over everyone else.

tax cuts that benefited only the super rich? uh 47% of American families didn't pay any income taxes in '09, willing to bet that figure is about the same in '10 once those figures get released. i'd say they got a benefit.

Written by JCJen7 on 12.10.2011 at 08:19

.
.
.

I see your point.
But let's foresee the future!
The protests go well and whole the politics change. Will it be a better America?

Written by Tormentor666 on 11.10.2011 at 22:04

There is a substantial difference between the Iranian Revolution and these demonstrations and protests. The Iranian Revolution was a Islamic Revolution which aimed to bring the Ayatollah back to the country, so there is no point where you can compare.

No we didn't want to bring the Ayatollah back. All we wanted was a better country but today, we have this regime that shoots the protestors in the streets. Did we want this?

The situation in America is the same. (Not in all aspects of course.)

Looks like the Occupy Wall Street movement is really starting to frighten the right wing.

http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/152707/5_reasons_the_right_is_terrified_of_occupy_wall_st._/?page=1

I have been apart of Occupy Portland.
Here is a photo album of whats going on there.... http://www.flickr.com/photos/jessicaweiss/6219742313/

For those who support the movement, if you are a musician, write a song and release it for free on the internet, it was and still an information war. You can play your part not only by supporting in streets but with writing songs. We are releasing a thrash Music EP, our first Album, and it's 100% in the support of the movement, musically and lyrically. Metal Music was a revolution and it's supposed to help in this revolution. The world is saying his word, and we are part of it, let the corrupted minority hear what all the headbangers have to say about the elite's corruption, greed and inhumanity.

Written by Devolution on 15.10.2011 at 16:20
let the corrupted minority hear what all the headbangers have to say about the elite's corruption, greed and inhumanity.

Not every "headbanger" agrees with this.

I think they have a right to protest as it's obvious the USA is in a bad state.

I see how some of these "claims" frustrate people even more. the complete wiping of the board with all global debt (which would probably cause nuclear armageddon) is an outlandish and impossible demand, my best guess though is that someone was trolling when they wrote that, but then again free college education imo is totally feasible. The picture is much bigger than this of course, but in the USA "freedom" is too much synonymous with "enough money". So, you're not obliged to go to college, you have the freedom to decide to do so, but if you don't have the money, you're suddenly not free anymore. Now obviously a good education pays for itself, but if you're unlucky and stuck with a shit job, what do you do then? there's probably more than a few people in this situation among the protesters.

in Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland, state college education is free of tuition for national and EU/EEA students, and it used to be, and is still to some degree in Romania for nationals. THAT is freedom, not "the freedom to choose between paying 100.000$ at X college or 120.000$ at Y college". If a state with such a corrupt and inefficient high management as Romania can do this, is it that difficult for the USA? oh wait, there's billions of dollars at stake. Hurray for the American Dream.

Even if I don't like this movement, some of their demands are logical and feasible. Education is suppose to be obligatory only till 18 (or 16, nah?) so technically, you can't say the State needs to garantee free college. But those college prices in USA are truly disproportionate and should be changed, or at least grant more scholarships to those who really deserve them.

In Europe, college are really cheap (like 600-1000 euros/year, in france and spain at least) or even free and there are plenty of scholarships (even for those who are obviously wasting their time & public money). I think the best point of this is that people won't have to work their ass off to pay a huge debt, coz all the shit we are having today starts with people getting debts. You could apply the same logic to mortgage (house prices should go down too). It's the fact that what you have in life depends on a bank that fucks up everything.

Anyway, I hate people that have debts, it's a sign they are living beyond their posibilities. If college & house prices went down, the amount of people stuggling would drastically decrese, and bank would stop being so annoying.

What I don't understand is how all of these prices are supposed to magically drop. It's not like the country isn't a few trillion dollars in debt.

Written by Vombatus on 16.10.2011 at 15:12

Even if I don't like this movement, some of their demands are logical and feasible. Education is suppose to be obligatory only till 18 (or 16, nah?) so technically, you can't say the State needs to garantee free college. But those college prices in USA are truly disproportionate and should be changed, or at least grant more scholarships to those who really deserve them.

In Europe, college are really cheap (like 600-1000 euros/year, in france and spain at least) or even free and there are plenty of scholarships (even for those who are obviously wasting their time & public money). I think the best point of this is that people won't have to work their ass off to pay a huge debt, coz all the shit we are having today starts with people getting debts. You could apply the same logic to mortgage (house prices should go down too). It's the fact that what you have in life depends on a bank that fucks up everything.

Anyway, I hate people that have debts, it's a sign they are living beyond their posibilities. If college & house prices went down, the amount of people stuggling would drastically decrese, and bank would stop being so annoying.

What I remembered now is that in the USA the income tax (and the general level of taxes) is ridiculously low. I myself pay 32% of my salary in taxes, and the VAT is 24% (in the US the maximum sales tax is 13%). I know in France and the other welfare states the taxation is at a similar level, maybe slightly higher. Right now there is a reform proposing to change the income tax in the USA to 9%, which is absolutely ludicrous, yet people will still be mad if they pay more taxes to fund subsidised education and healthcare, something we here in the EU have taken for granted.

My opinion though is that this is a necessary step. It might be because i'm used to it, but really it beats having to take one of those stupid loans and then paying it back in about 20 years just to have a goddamned piece of paper which says you passed college. The tuition fee was completely affordable: 800 E for my 3rd and last year in which my grades were too shitty to get state-sponsored education. Do I feel sorry for people who pay ridiculous tuition fees and then work their ass off dreaming about the whole nation paying just 7-8 % or something more in taxes just to get this invaluable benefit of free higher education? yeah. Do I feel sorry for those who would still moan about high taxes? oh fuck no. The US tax system seems to be based in the Walmart/Carrefour mentality: price it as low as possible, and complaints will be minimal.

Written by Valentin B on 16.10.2011 at 23:20

What I remembered now is that in the USA the income tax (and the general level of taxes) is ridiculously low. I myself pay 32% of my salary in taxes, and the VAT is 24% (in the US the maximum sales tax is 13%).

My opinion though is that this is a necessary step. It might be because i'm used to it, but really it beats having to take one of those stupid loans and then paying it back in about 20 years just to have a goddamned piece of paper which says you passed college.

32% is pretty high but coincidentally,that's exactly how much gets taken out of my boyfriend's paychecks. He makes $44k a year but only brings home $30k. That includes health insurance, pension, and a few other things as well besides taxes. Taxes themselves don't make up that 32%, they probably make up well over half of it though. Does your 32% include health insurance or anything else?

As for me, to this day I have never made enough to actually pay taxes. I always get it refunded back to me. I am a college student so I've never had a year round full time job. I've worked full time before during summer vacation and I can't wait till I work full time all the time.

That brings me to your comment about loans. I couldn't agree more! I had to take out loans for the first time ever and it fucking sucks. I did get my bachelor's degree for free because I had a 4 year scholarship from the state lottery, and then I went to a smaller college to take a few math and physics classes that I needed before I could start grad school. I payed for the math and physics classes straight out of my own pocket with money earned from a shitty part time job...I am so against taking out loans that I would rather be broker than fuck than be in debt. This is my first year of grad school though and I'm going full time so I don't have time for a job...in another state. So I had to swallow my pride and take out loans. I'm just glad that I got a tuition waiver. I don't have to pay out of state tuition because there's no state program for meteorology in my home state. That right there is going to save me $30k per year! It just sucks that I'll still be paying for this for at least 10 ten years to come. I sure as hell don't expect the government to pay for it (after all, the government is where my student loans came from. Yep, the government owns my ass now!)

Yeah, this country is pretty fucked up fiscally!

Written by MetallicA on 17.10.2011 at 05:25
/rant

You're a godsend. This thread needed that.

Written by MetallicA on 17.10.2011 at 05:24

Written by Valentin B on 16.10.2011 at 23:20

What I remembered now is that in the USA the income tax (and the general level of taxes) is ridiculously low. I myself pay 32% of my salary in taxes, and the VAT is 24% (in the US the maximum sales tax is 13%).

My opinion though is that this is a necessary step. It might be because i'm used to it, but really it beats having to take one of those stupid loans and then paying it back in about 20 years just to have a goddamned piece of paper which says you passed college.

32% is pretty high but coincidentally,that's exactly how much gets taken out of my boyfriend's paychecks. He makes $44k a year but only brings home $30k. That includes health insurance, pension, and a few other things as well besides taxes. Taxes themselves don't make up that 32%, they probably make up well over half of it though. Does your 32% include health insurance or anything else?

It contains the following: 16% state health insurance (which includes some subsidized medicine prescriptions, free consultations and some free check-ups, and free emergency care regardless of what's wrong, including ambulance service, yes, even for people who don't actually contribute to the system like the homeless or unemployed), 0.5% unemployment fund contributions (let's hope I won't need it haha), and 16% income tax. This might be a ridiculous amount by traditional US healthcare standards but I am really grateful we have this system (which isn't without its faults, obviously, we're not talking the NHS here). There's even the "European Health Card" which we can use when travelling and it entitles you to medical care in all EEA countries (not sure if it also includes non-emergencies though, thankfully I never had to use it).

I remember until I was 14 I broke my hand playing basketball, football and football with a basketball (haha) a total of 4 times, and they put my hand in a cast. It's completely unfathomable for me to have to pay for something like that, or the simple service of a doctor looking at me and putting a diagnostic. I think that in a modern state, it is necessary for the state to provide adequate healthcare to ensure the safety and well-being of the population, not leave this to corporations who can literally put a price on your life. Michael Moore's documentary "Sicko" was pretty eye-opening, and it exposes the rotten flaws in the US commercial healthcare system as opposed to the NHS and French healthcare systems.

I pay 40% taxes, like most people with a middle income here. And it does NOT include healthcare. That I have to pay separetly, same for my pension fund, also is paid seprately.
And although I pay for healthcare there's a lot of stuff when ill you'll still have to pay for yourself and are not insured for, like a large chunk of dental care.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.10.2011 at 12:24

I pay 40% taxes, like most people with a middle income here. And it does NOT include healthcare. That I have to pay separetly, same for my pension fund, also is paid seprately.
And although I pay for healthcare there's a lot of stuff when ill you'll still have to pay for yourself and are not insured for, like a large chunk of dental care.

ah yes I forgot my nemesis, dental care. It's not subsidized here either, though I heard from a friend that's not the case in Germany.

btw 40% seems quite a lot even to me, but I presume if you're a middle-income guy by Dutch standards then the remaining 60% more than suffices for a very comfortable lifestyle

Written by Valentin B on 17.10.2011 at 13:02

...more than suffices for a very comfortable lifestyle

Not with my lifestyle
But I refuse to go into debt in order to make it more comfortable, unlike many people I know who are mad about their debts. but got them by wanting a plasma TV, three holidays abroad a year etc etc.. So, it's their own fault they have those debts and not that of the banks and corporate companies.